New at Reason: Cathy Young on Campus Free Speech

April 23, 2009

It's bad enough to place a burden on unpopular views by requiring student organizations to fork over extra fees to "protect" controversial speakers, writes Cathy Young. It's doubly outrageous when, even with the extra costs, the controversial speech is still silenced, as was recently the case at the University of Massachusetts, Amherst. 

Read all about it here.

Comments

|4.23.09 @ 3:09PM|#

Most of us probably regard some speech and some speakers as so far beyond the pale of civilized discourse that there is no point in debating them, only in branding them unacceptable.

That's what I don't understand about any of this heckling. If you think they're wrong, you're free to rip their logic to shreds in the local paper or internet or to shun anyone who quotes them. But to actually prevent them from speaking... well, it requires a moral bankruptcy so deep that I can never empathize with it.

High Every Body|4.23.09 @ 3:16PM|#

Ann Coulter is right about all of these screaming crybabies. If they have such good ideas why don't we ever hear them? They express their advanced intellect by throwing food.

Hi Tony, do you switch to your MNG handle after you get home from the soup kitchen?

Elemenope|4.23.09 @ 3:17PM|#

Perhaps, but I have never heard of a right to not be heckled. So far as I know, making loud fun of some speaker is as much speech as the speaker's own words. Now, if the host of the event wished to toss disruptive hecklers, that's their prerogative, but they didn't, so where's the beef?

High Every Body|4.23.09 @ 3:20PM|#

The default position of the Left is rude.

|4.23.09 @ 3:24PM|#

How 'bout heckling the hecklers? Like sitting uncomfortably close to one individual and shouting Dumb and Dumber-style every time s/he heckles. There's no defense they could mount that wouldn't undermine their own position.

|4.23.09 @ 3:26PM|#

We could boil all political discourse down to "I'm not touching you! I'm not touching you!" as we point fingers at one another's eyeballs.

ed|4.23.09 @ 3:27PM|#

But the left is so damned smug in their moral convictions that they see no problem, ethically, in silencing their intellectual opponents. They look at such censorship as a common good, a way to lift up society according to their particular opinions. And because they are right, to oppose them is to oppose righteousness.*


*Of course, far-right evangelical types are equally certain of their righteousness, though they are not nearly as supportive of campus censorship policies. On a broader plain, witness the excoriation of the Miss USA bimbo who dared to voice her opposition to gay-marriage rights. Few on the left have supported her right to her opinion. "She's wrong!" they say. She has no right to insult The Gays­­­™. She must be punished!

|4.23.09 @ 3:28PM|#

Perhaps, but I have never heard of a right to not be heckled.

Exactly.

Feder wasn't silenced...he CHOSE to stop his speech because of the heckling..

Heckling is a form of speech as well.

Is it rude? Sure.

Is it "silencing speech" ? Hardly

|4.23.09 @ 3:29PM|#

Heckling seems to be just as much speech as being given a microphone and a stage and talking. Heckling is rude, but shouldn't be against the law.

High,

Liberals do walk among you. I'm not the only one in the world. Given the shallow demographic puddle that is libertarianism, I could easily assume you're all the same person.

Wait a minute, why am I talking to someone who listens to Ann Coulter and thinks she's right about anything?

|4.23.09 @ 3:29PM|#

L through P,

There is no right not to be heckled. There is no right not to defecate over everything that you own. Some things just shouldn't be tolerated by civilized people (using, of course, purely social mechanisms of enforcement, whichever SLD # that is)

Elemenope|4.23.09 @ 3:29PM|#

FWIW, when I was in school the Young Republicans brought Daniel Flynn to speak on "Why the Left Hates America". It was well attended, by faculty as well as students, and the crowd was pretty well behaved, even though it was pretty packed with leftists (who wanted to know how they purportedly hated America, one presumes).

What I do remember was his short temper every time someone in the audience giggled at his sillier points. He was pretty hypersensitive to interruption.

I find it amusing that leftists are apparently the crude crass hoi polloi while the right are apparently a bunch of whiny sensitive eggheads. Methinks someone has their stereotyping wires crossed.

Orange Line Special|4.23.09 @ 3:31PM|#

I realize Reason has a lead time for articles of a few years, but I'm a bit surprised that Young didn't mention what happened at U. North Carolina a week ago, especially since a muted version - albeit without a window being smashed - happened just yesterday. Or, were those who did that just valiant supporters of personal liberty?

Federal Dog|4.23.09 @ 3:31PM|#

"A group of left-wing students announced their intent to protest Feder's appearance. The campus police then demanded the organizers pay an added $444 for security, nearly tripling the costs to the club."

This is an essential part of the modus operandi. If they threaten enough disruption and/or violence, they can price security costs of the event straight out of range, thus shutting the thing down in advance.

Elemenope|4.23.09 @ 3:32PM|#

LD,

I agree it is uncivilized to heckle, and deserves social reprobation. But seeing as how some people are actually whining that it is an abridgment of free speech, I think we have deeper definitional issues going on. It's one thing for a thing to be distasteful and quite another for it to be some manifestation of political oppression.

Elemenope|4.23.09 @ 3:35PM|#

This is an essential part of the modus operandi. If they threaten enough disruption and/or violence, they can price security costs of the event straight out of range, thus shutting the thing down in advance.

Yeah, that's exactly what they're thinking, those Machiavellian liberals!

Please. People protest because they're annoyed, and college people protest because it's fun. To ascribe bank-shot tactics and grand strategizing betrays a complete unfamiliarity with the phenomenon.

|4.23.09 @ 3:35PM|#

El,

I agree with your 3:32.

|4.23.09 @ 3:37PM|#

n a broader plain, witness the excoriation of the Miss USA bimbo who dared to voice her opposition to gay-marriage rights. Few on the left have supported her right to her opinion. "She's wrong!" they say. She has no right to insult The Gays­­­™. She must be punished!

No one has said she doesn't have a right to her opinion. Nor did I see anyone say she has no right to "insult the gays" (not that her comments were inherently insulting -- just because she doesn't support gay marriage doesn't necessarily mean she hates gays -- just that she has specific views on marriage)


You want to be a bigot you are free to do so. And we are free to mock you incessantly about it.

Isn't the whole point of free speech? That you can say what you want...and then others get to criticize or agree with you?

Xeones|4.23.09 @ 3:38PM|#

Shut the fuck up, LoneWacko.

High Every Body|4.23.09 @ 3:38PM|#

Yeah, that's exactly what they're thinking, those Machiavellian liberals!

Stop acting like you are not part of that set.

|4.23.09 @ 3:39PM|#

It's not an abridgment of free speech, it's a shining example of the closed-mindedness of the left.

Elemenope|4.23.09 @ 3:42PM|#

Stop acting like you are not part of that set.

I'm neither part of that set (Liberals) nor that fictional set (Machiavellian Liberal College Student Protest Organizers).

|4.23.09 @ 3:42PM|#

To further my point, my OP was more along the lines of "what do the hecklers get out of it?" but, upon further reflection, I probably don't have as many emotional issues as the majority of hecklers, so I'm probably not ever going to get it.

More directly, while there are many here who are going to defend the right to heckle, is there anyone here who can mount a plausable defence of the act of heckling? Or is it such an empty act that one can only ever defend heckling that they agree with because "they ohter guy iz totolly wrong"?

|4.23.09 @ 3:44PM|#

I am taking some courses at the local state university and Alex Epstein from the Ayn Rand Institute gave his Standard Oil talk one night, sponsored by the Students Of Ayn Rand. I don't recall hearing of any disturbances but as a libertarian event maybe its just that no one showed up.

Also, at the very least an objectivist student group at a public university whose members likely have federally backed loans seems to lack the courage of its convictions.

Epstein:

http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=reg_ls_standard

ed|4.23.09 @ 3:48PM|#

Heckling seems to be just as much speech

Heckling isn't speech. It's behavior. Disrupting free speech amongst civilized people is uncivilized. Shouting down a speaker in a public forum is no different than heckling an opera singer or a comedian. This distinction is what separates us humans from baboons.

High Every Body|4.23.09 @ 3:48PM|#

Alex Epstein? His dad was great in Welcome Back Kotter!

Michael P.|4.23.09 @ 3:48PM|#

Heckling a speaker at an event organized specifically to showcase the speaker's ideas is just a rung or two above bringing your own food to a restaurant.

High Every Body|4.23.09 @ 3:49PM|#

This distinction is what separates us humans from baboons.

Is that racism or are we talking about the 'people' who throw food at Ann Coulter? ;)

Elemenope|4.23.09 @ 3:51PM|#

More directly, while there are many here who are going to defend the right to heckle, is there anyone here who can mount a plausable defence of the act of heckling? Or is it such an empty act that one can only ever defend heckling that they agree with because "they ohter guy iz totolly wrong"?

For the most part, I can see no defense. In rare cases, when the speaker is exhorting the crowd to do something bad (like lynch a guy, or establish a party to overthrow the Weimar republic and kill Jews, say), then heckling to disrupt the demogogic control of the speaker can be defensible.

But speeches whose purpose is to present, inform, or argue, no, I can't see any rational defense for those who would interrupt such a thing.

|4.23.09 @ 3:53PM|#

This pretty well sums it all up.

Elemenope|4.23.09 @ 3:55PM|#

Heckling isn't speech. It's behavior.

Weasel words. Speech is a behavior. How do you distinguish speech as the behavior of a guy standing front of the room in a nice suit with a microphone from speech as a behavior of the guy who makes fun of his tie and haircut and has artful suggestions for where he should stick his microphone?

Because if your answer is "well one is useful and one is not", you've already lost the battle for true free speech.

Ironic|4.23.09 @ 3:56PM|#

I wholeheartedly support the right of people to throw shoes at a President of the United States regardless of whether that President's last name is Bush or Obama. I do sincerely hope some folks throw shoes at Obama when he speaks at Notre Dame. And I hope Obama is not as good at ducking.

Elemenope|4.23.09 @ 3:57PM|#

This pretty well sums it all up.

Insofar as it makes a weak argument? Yeah, I'd say it does.

|4.23.09 @ 3:58PM|#

Yeah, that's exactly what they're thinking, those Machiavellian liberals!

Yeah, actually, I have seen people discuss exactly these kinds of tactics.
It's neither particularly clever nor uncommon at all. It's what they do because they are used to doing it. Frequently faculty or alumni are involved in these groups and can pass on tactics that have worked for them in the past.

Driving up the cost of doing business is an old mainstay for political agitators. It's just slight adaptation to using it on a college campus.

|4.23.09 @ 4:01PM|#

Some of the great moments in free speech have involved projectile pies. I'm thinking Ann Coulter and Anita Bryant. Oh and Tom Friedman has been pied before I think.

Free speech is robust speech, and robust speech sometimes requires flying dessert.

|4.23.09 @ 4:01PM|#

I'm sorry, but I don't see why heckling is a problem.

Behavior is an act of expression therefore IT IS speech. (as far as "freedom of speech" is concerned).

I've heckled lots of people....usually bad performers that I paid to see.

What is the purpose of heckling? To let the speaker know just how terrible you think they are.

It's especially useful when you can heckle someone who normally deals with friendly audiences.

ed|4.23.09 @ 4:02PM|#

How do you distinguish speech

It's what civilized people do, Elemenope.
Silencing it by physical disruptions is what dictators and apes do.
Happy to help.

|4.23.09 @ 4:04PM|#

Do civilized people herd protesters into "free speech zones" too?

This country could use a little civil disorder like they have in other democracies. We're really quite a bunch of pansies.

|4.23.09 @ 4:06PM|#

I bet some of the protesters were douchebags from Amherst College

|4.23.09 @ 4:06PM|#

I don't think this behavior is exclusive to the left. You could write the Dixie Chicks to ask them about it but it may take a while to get a response. They have someone opening their mail for them now...

Ironic|4.23.09 @ 4:06PM|#

Since we are on the topic of heckling you may find this video interesting if you have not already seen it
http://hotair.com/archives/2009/04/18/video-gop-rep-who-voted-for-tarp-booed-mercilessly-at-tea-party/

Lester Hunt|4.23.09 @ 4:09PM|#

I don't get the backstory here. It sounded like the threats and disruptions were expressions of solidarity with a student who had stabbed two people -- ??

ed|4.23.09 @ 4:09PM|#

I've heckled lots of people....usually bad performers that I paid to see.

Boo hoo, Chicago Tom. Did your ticket guarantee absolute satisfaction regarding the performer's act? Apes throw feces. Humanity holds itself to a higher standard. Or so it should.

|4.23.09 @ 4:12PM|#

It's bad enough to place a burden on unpopular views by requiring student organizations to fork over extra fees to "protect" controversial speakers


Is this really that bad? Free speech means free from restrictions on content, but I don't know that I object to forcing student organizations to pay for security.

I mean if a student group brought in Nazis or Hugo Chavez or Castro to speak, should the school be forced to pay for the security?

I tend to think that sponsoring organization should over the security costs, (assuming that schools arent inflating those costs to prevent them from speaking).

I mean even if you want to hand out fliers on the corner you have to pay to have them printed up. It doesn't seem unreasonable to have the sponsor cover the costs of security.

Kolohe|4.23.09 @ 4:13PM|#

Please. People protest because they're annoyed, and college people protest because it's fun. To ascribe bank-shot tactics and grand strategizing betrays a complete unfamiliarity with the phenomenon.

College people protest to meet persons of the opposite (or same) gender to hook up with.

The *organizers* of various protests know damn well what their doing.

I wonder if all the people defending heckling were equally supportive of the various 'protest warrior' nimrods.

I've heckled lots of people

A sign of unparalleled toolitude. Although to be fair, most of the difference between a good performer and a bad one is the ability to deftly handle heckler tools.

|4.23.09 @ 4:14PM|#

ed,

In the past it was common to heckle bad opera singers off the stage. Now any mediocre performer gets an obligatory standing ovation.

Yeah we need a little more civil disobedience and a little less southern gentlemanliness in this country.

|4.23.09 @ 4:14PM|#

At a sensibly-run college - and that I mean a private one - any sort of discourse would be allowed, but the organizers of an event would have the right to demand silence of those in the audience, until such time as it is their turn to speak.

Of course, since UMass is a state school, the First Amendment applies. Curious, though, how A1 can be relied on to allow the Heckler's Veto during student-run events, when it certainly wouldn't be when one of the faculty is lecturing in a regularly-scheduled class.

I believe the lawyers refer to "Time, Place and Manner" distinctions.

Kevin

kinnath|4.23.09 @ 4:16PM|#

Free speech is robust speech, and robust speech sometimes requires flying dessert.

Assault is not speech.

|4.23.09 @ 4:16PM|#

Boo hoo, Chicago Tom. Did your ticket guarantee absolute satisfaction regarding the performer's act? Apes throw feces. Humanity holds itself to a higher standard. Or so it should.

GO fuck yourself ed.

My ticket doesn't guarantee me satisfaction, I expect and demand it as a paying customer.

My ticket guaranteed me the right to be there, and when I was unhappy with the product I excersized my right as a consumer to let the person know.

You might consider it boorish, but frankly, I dont give a fuck what you think.

Do you clutch your pearls and faint when you see such incivility?

Elemenope|4.23.09 @ 4:17PM|#

Do civilized people herd protesters into "free speech zones" too?

This country could use a little civil disorder like they have in other democracies. We're really quite a bunch of pansies.

And Tony nails it.

Silencing it by physical disruptions is what dictators and apes do. Happy to help.

Weak. Heckling is not a "physical disruption". It's a speech disruption. How does the old saw go? "Words mean things."

Driving up the cost of doing business is an old mainstay for political agitators. It's just slight adaptation to using it on a college campus.

I have seen many (and been involved in a few) college protests, and none of them seemed that sophisticated. But, hey, in different places maybe there are schemers hatching labyrinthine plots to ruin political speech with the awesome power of economics! (And conservatives say liberals don't understand the market.) If driving up the cost of something means you get less of it, it seems like a fairly rational approach.

Now, it would be quite another thing if there were to be actual violence at these protests, but LoneWacko aside I haven't seen reports of liberal mobs stoning conservative speakers or their supporters.

Kinnath|4.23.09 @ 4:20PM|#

"Assault is not speech."

In the vast majority of cases I would agree. When it comes to elected politicians who trample upon our rights I would beg to differ. Politicians don't listen to us when we politely phone them or send them email. To reach those vermin you need shoes, pies or other projectiles.

kinnath|4.23.09 @ 4:21PM|#

Heckling involves three parties: the speaker/performer, the heckler, and the other paying customer who is deprived off an event he or she paid to see.

Speaker and performers have no right to be protected from hecklers.

Paying customers do, however, have right to not have their eveing ruined by dickheads that can't keep their mouths shut.

Ironic|4.23.09 @ 4:22PM|#

Sorry, I did not mean to put Kinnath as the name but in the comment section. The above comment is mine not Kinnath's. I appologize for any misunderstanding

kinnath|4.23.09 @ 4:22PM|#

In the vast majority of cases I would agree. When it comes to elected politicians who trample upon our rights I would beg to differ. Politicians don't listen to us when we politely phone them or send them email. To reach those vermin you need shoes, pies or other projectiles.

Use your own frickin name dude

Ironic|4.23.09 @ 4:22PM|#

The comment from April 23, 2009, 4:20pm

|4.23.09 @ 4:23PM|#

It's what civilized people do, Elemenope.

Humanity holds itself to a higher standard. Or so it should.

I love that ed seems to have elected himself the arbiter of what is and isn't civilized.

Go on ed. Fight that good fight against those dirty boorish masses.

kinnath|4.23.09 @ 4:23PM|#

simultaneous posts . . . .

Ironic|4.23.09 @ 4:23PM|#

Ironic | April 23, 2009, 4:22pm | #

Sorry, I did not mean to put Kinnath as the name but in the comment section. The above comment is mine not Kinnath's. I appologize for any misunderstanding

kinnath|4.23.09 @ 4:24PM|#

In the vast majority of cases I would agree. When it comes to elected politicians who trample upon our rights I would beg to differ. Politicians don't listen to us when we politely phone them or send them email. To reach those vermin you need shoes, pies or other projectiles.

If you want to make an argument that the population has a right to physically assualt elected officials, then do it.

Don't call it "free speech", cause it ain't speech.

Kolohe|4.23.09 @ 4:26PM|#

I mean if a student group brought in Nazis or Hugo Chavez or Castro to speak, should the school be forced to pay for the security?

If a student group sponsored President Obama to speak, it would have to cough up some additional security costs. But you know, the school would likely have no problem covering them if they had to do so (unless it's Notre Dame).

How student groups are funded is important for this discussion - all the student fees get put into a giant pot which are then distributed among the various student groups though a combo of faculty commitees, appointed (by the school) student representatives, and elected student council reps (the specifics vary by the school)

So if a group puts in a request for additional money to cover 'security costs' for a speaker in the next school year, it becomes a decidedly political process to determine which group will get the grant and which group will not - and will specificially depend on the speaker and his/her viewpoints. So the practical application of 'student groups should pay for their security costs' is pretty far away from content neutral.

kinnath|4.23.09 @ 4:26PM|#

Double simultaenous posts . . . .

|4.23.09 @ 4:27PM|#

While UMASS Amherst is a public school, I'm sure the venue was rented, and the space paid for, so the speaker was a private event. All this BS talk about 'the right to heckle' only makes sense if its a public forum, at a private (but open) forum where it is expressed that hecklers will be made to leave, it seems perfetly logical that the organizers of the event can have hecklers removed. If the hecklers were on a street corner, the scenario would br completely different.

Ironic|4.23.09 @ 4:27PM|#

Kinnath,

"If you want to make an argument that the population has a right to physically assualt elected officials, then do it.

Don't call it "free speech", cause it ain't speech."

Fair enough - self-defence then.

Elemenope|4.23.09 @ 4:28PM|#

Paying customers do, however, have right to not have their eveing ruined by dickheads that can't keep their mouths shut.

They have an interest, sure, but a right? I think that's kind of a stretch. One would have to put some sort of theory of third-party tortious interference on the table, and then argue that somehow that should be favorably balanced against the free speech rights of the heckler.

Now, part of the agreement between the ticket-holder and the venue might be that the venue exercise its abilities as a private venue to exclude disruptive persons, but that is at best a negotiated service (not a right) which the venue may or may not provide.

Ironic|4.23.09 @ 4:31PM|#

"They have an interest, sure, but a right? I think that's kind of a stretch. One would have to put some sort of theory of third-party tortious interference on the table, and then argue that somehow that should be favorably balanced against the free speech rights of the heckler."

I have a right to purchase soup from a restaurant. Once I have bought the soup it is my property and a third party shooting spitballs in my soup is violating my property rights.

kinnath|4.23.09 @ 4:31PM|#

They have an interest, sure, but a right?

Assuming that you paid to enter, then yes, I have a "right" to what I paid for. Having a dickhead spoil my evening is theft of my time and money.

Now I'm perfectly willing to trade, if I can beat the crap out of heckler that ruins my night, then the heckler is free to speak his/her mind.

|4.23.09 @ 4:32PM|#

The pie in Anita Bryant's face was memorable, and beautifully symbolic. Especially once her bigoted cream-covered face started praying.

The shoe flung at Bush will go down in history as a bittersweet symbol as well... a pathetic coup de grace by one of the many powerless victims of his actions in Iraq.

These actions are classics in the history of free speech, and I would not trade them for anything, especially not some vastly misplaced "lawdy lawdy, I do declare, how awful" sense of impropriety.

Scratch a leftist...|4.23.09 @ 4:35PM|#

I never would have guessed that you find assaulting people you disagree with to be perfectly acceptable. Nope, never.

Elemenope|4.23.09 @ 4:36PM|#

Assuming that you paid to enter, then yes, I have a "right" to what I paid for. Having a dickhead spoil my evening is theft of my time and money.

The heckler was never a party to your agreement with the vendor. Why should he roughly give a fuck what you expect out of your purchase?

kinnath|4.23.09 @ 4:38PM|#

The heckler was never a party to your agreement with the vendor. Why should he roughly give a fuck what you expect out of your purchase?

And why should I give a fuck what the heckler thinks?

kinnath|4.23.09 @ 4:39PM|#

By the way, a ticket to an event is a contract. Unless the heckler breaks into an event, he or she is bound by the same contract as I am.

Tony, LMNOP and ChiTom support|4.23.09 @ 4:39PM|#

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Tony, LMNOP and ChiTom support the hecklers vetoTony, LMNOP and ChiTom support the hecklers veto
Tony, LMNOP and ChiTom support the hecklers vetoTony, LMNOP and ChiTom support the hecklers veto
Tony, LMNOP and ChiTom support the hecklers vetoTony, LMNOP and ChiTom support the hecklers veto
Tony, LMNOP and ChiTom support the hecklers vetoTony, LMNOP and ChiTom support the hecklers veto
Tony, LMNOP and ChiTom support the hecklers vetoTony, LMNOP and ChiTom support the hecklers veto
Tony, LMNOP and ChiTom support the hecklers vetoTony, LMNOP and ChiTom support the hecklers veto
Tony, LMNOP and ChiTom support the hecklers vetoTony, LMNOP and ChiTom support the hecklers veto
Tony, LMNOP and ChiTom support the hecklers vetoTony, LMNOP and ChiTom support the hecklers veto
Tony, LMNOP and ChiTom support the hecklers vetoTony, LMNOP and ChiTom support the hecklers veto
Tony, LMNOP and ChiTom support the hecklers vetoTony, LMNOP and ChiTom support the hecklers veto
Tony, LMNOP and ChiTom support the hecklers vetoTony, LMNOP and ChiTom support the hecklers veto
Tony, LMNOP and ChiTom support the hecklers vetoTony, LMNOP and ChiTom support the hecklers veto
Tony, LMNOP and ChiTom support the hecklers vetoTony, LMNOP and ChiTom support the hecklers veto
Tony, LMNOP and ChiTom support the hecklers veto

N.B. To whom it may concern|4.23.09 @ 4:40PM|#

Feel free to delete the previous in support of my point.

That support of hecklers is assinine

|4.23.09 @ 4:42PM|#

I never would have guessed that you find assaulting people you disagree with to be perfectly acceptable.

Throwing a shoe at someone is probably properly categorized as assault and not free speech.

But it's not exactly, you know, invading a sovereign country on false pretenses and getting hundreds of thousands of innocent people blown up. Just sayin'.

kinnath|4.23.09 @ 4:42PM|#

Ironic essentially claims that an elected officials' past actions can be viewed as "violence" against his/her person. Therefore, physically assaulting said officials is an act of self-defense.

Tony just likes to see conservatives cry.

kinnath|4.23.09 @ 4:44PM|#

But it's not exactly, you know, invading a sovereign country on false pretenses and getting hundreds of thousands of innocent people blown up. Just sayin'.

Your, like, half a decade too late to raising this issue at H&R. If you get bored, you can go read the archives.

|4.23.09 @ 4:45PM|#

Once I have bought the soup it is my property and a third party shooting spitballs in my soup is violating my property rights.

Assuming that you paid to enter, then yes, I have a "right" to what I paid for. Having a dickhead spoil my evening is theft of my time and money.

If other patrons have a problem with the heckling, they can ask the venue to remove the person doing the heckling.

Also, I suppose it depends on the type of heckling and how loose your definition of heckling is. Do I have a right to boo and hiss a bad performance? Don't I have as much right to boo as you do to cheer and applaud?

I mean look at what Cathy young is describing as "heckling"

They laughed raucously when Feder was introduced as an "author and intellectual." The announcement that no protests or disruptions would be tolerated during the speech was greeted with open jeers.

As Feder began to speak, the protesters hissed and hooted.

I don't think laughing at the introduction or booing and hissing is a dick move. Just as you are free to clap and cheer I am free to raspberry and jeer.

Elemenope|4.23.09 @ 4:46PM|#

By the way, a ticket to an event is a contract. Unless the heckler breaks into an event, he or she is bound by the same contract as I am.

Which is irrelevant. The decision as to whether to exercise the part of the agreement to toss hecklers is the venue's, not yours. So still, your beef is with the venue's (lack of) action. Again, the heckler, not being a part to your contract, need not care what effect his actions have upon your subjective enjoyment of what you paid for.

This would only change if the heckler somehow physically prevented the venue from providing what it promised (by, e.g. trying the sound system, or kneecapping the speaker). One person talking over another is not materially preventing the venue from providing what it promised; it only prevents you from subjectively enjoying what has been provided.

Elemenope|4.23.09 @ 4:48PM|#

Tony just likes to see conservatives cry.

Liberal tears are sweet to me, while conservatives' are more savory.

kinnath|4.23.09 @ 4:50PM|#

. . . it only prevents you from subjectively enjoying what has been provided.

Halting a performance versus ruining a performance. Either way, the heckler is a bottom feeder that deserves to be beat down.

|4.23.09 @ 4:51PM|#

I have no fucking clue why a college campus is a political soapbox. When I go to my fitness club I don't stand on an exercise bench and belch out my political views or complain about the membership fees. When I go an art museum or attend an educational conference on computer science I don't do that either. Maybe the organizers of these events forget to invite the free speech fairy.

|4.23.09 @ 4:51PM|#

Bush deserves to be executed for treason, so excuse me of I don't shed a tear for his getting almost hit by a shoe from one of his many, many victims.

I'm just saying there is nuance here. Lots of actions taken by the founders of this country would be considered not just assault but terrorism and treason. Good? Bad? Legal? Who cares. Sometimes people get what's coming to them, and Bush is fucking lucky it's just a shoe and not a firing squad.

Your, like, half a decade too late to raising this issue at H&R. If you get bored, you can go read the archives.

Fuck you kinnath. As long as the war criminals who inhabited the previous administration are still roaming the streets free the issue is not over. Why is it libertarians are so radically lockstep on issues of money and taxes but get all in a tizzy whenever speech, torture, war, or anything else that has an obvious libertarian answer comes up? Some ideologues you are.

kinnath|4.23.09 @ 4:52PM|#

To be honest though, the heckler is one step above the dickhead that won't shut off his cell phone.

reason sux|4.23.09 @ 4:52PM|#

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suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason suxreason sux

kinnath|4.23.09 @ 4:53PM|#

Fuck you kinnath.

Is that you joe? We missed you.

|4.23.09 @ 4:54PM|#

This whole article reeks of playing the victim :

inally, a woman in the audience interrupted Feder, rising to shout out a statement about the murder of a transgendered African-American woman. Feder asked the police to escort her out; from the video, it appears that she walked out on her own,

...

However, in the video, which was put up by a supporter of the protesters'-and which includes the incident with the heckler in its entirety-the police are seen standing by idly

What would Ms. Young prefer? That once the heckler started to leave on their own, that the police tackle the heckler and make a bigger disruption? Maybe they should have tazed her?

kinnath|4.23.09 @ 4:55PM|#

Tony, you must be aware, since you such a bright dude, that you just declared that every man and women in uniform that participated in the Iraq war in any way is a war criminal.

Of course, you knew that, didn't you?

MNG|4.23.09 @ 4:57PM|#

Oh criminy. You guys are missing the point. It's plain rude to jeer when during an event. Those opposed should have had an event of their own.

Elemenope|4.23.09 @ 4:58PM|#

I have no fucking clue why a college campus is a political soapbox. When I go to my fitness club I don't stand on an exercise bench and belch out my political views or complain about the membership fees. When I go an art museum or attend an educational conference on computer science I don't do that either. Maybe the organizers of these events forget to invite the free speech fairy.

Because colleges and universities are intended for the free and frank exchange of ideas. Usually, it's written right in the mission statement.

Jordan|4.23.09 @ 4:58PM|#

Bush deserves to be executed for treason, so excuse me of I don't shed a tear for his getting almost hit by a shoe from one of his many, many victims.

I see you've conveniently dropped the other example you initially cited. Just admit it: you're a thuggish prick. Really, no need to hide it.

MNG|4.23.09 @ 4:58PM|#

It's easy as pie to get an event and venue on any college campus. Those opposed to the dude should have just set up their own event about how wrong they think he is. Coming to hear the man just to disrupt things is being a jerk.

|4.23.09 @ 4:59PM|#

Wow, that wall of text must have taken some time.

I have no fucking clue why a college campus is a political soapbox.

Let me break it down for you: there are lots and lots of chicks on college campuses. Chicks dig guys who protest and seem to care about "important" issues. Therefore, lots of dudes will do this.

It all comes down to pussy, dude. Always.

|4.23.09 @ 4:59PM|#

kinnath,

Actually that's not what I just declared, but thanks for trying.

Elemenope|4.23.09 @ 5:00PM|#

Tony, you must be aware, since you such a bright dude, that you just declared that every man and women in uniform that participated in the Iraq war in any way is a war criminal.

Of course, you knew that, didn't you?

You're a bright guy, kinnath, so you must know that in a situation where a vast institution (like an army or government) is engaged in crimes there is a gradation of responsibility depending on the individual role being played.

Privates in the Wehrmacht were not, by-and-large, tried at Nuremberg for war crimes, and you well know this, and you know why.

Elemenope|4.23.09 @ 5:02PM|#

Epi also haz the important secondary point re: colleges and politics. The South Park movie covered it well, I think.

kinnath|4.23.09 @ 5:02PM|#

Because colleges and universities are intended for the free and frank exchange of ideas. Usually, it's written right in the mission statement.

Two opposing groups, out on the quad, shouting each other down . . . now that's just one of the loveliest things one can see in a free country.

One group trying to halt a speech in a auditorium that was organized by a group they oppose, that's just supression of free speech and is antitethical to our supposedly free way of life.

MNG|4.23.09 @ 5:02PM|#

"Chicks dig guys who protest and seem to care about "important" issues."

Too much credit given. Chicks dig guys they think are hot. They make up a lot of bullshit rationalizations as to why this or that guy, but that's basically what is going on.

"It all comes down to pussy, dude."

Unless you're a homo (ducks pie)

kinnath|4.23.09 @ 5:05PM|#

Actually that's not what I just declared, but thanks for trying.

Actually it is. I have friends, both current and former active duty. They make if very clear that they are trained from the first day of basic that they have duty to refuse an illegal order. Period.

If George Bush committed treason by starting an illegal war, then all militarly personnel that participate it that ware are criminals as stated in both US and International law.

There is absolutely no room in the law to say Bush broke the law but the soldiers didn't.

Vermont Gun Owner|4.23.09 @ 5:05PM|#

On a related note to student protests/free speech on public campuses:

Last night at UVM, a couple dozen protesters were arrested for protesting recent budget cuts and refusing to leave the administration's building when it closed for the day. They were arrested for trespassing. in between the closing of the administration's office wing and the closing of the building as a whole, I had two girls come into my dorm trying to convince us to go there so that we could get arrested. That was their goal.

For the record, I side with the administration here.

|4.23.09 @ 5:06PM|#

Sometimes people get what's coming to them

Right you are. Sometimes they get their lights punched out because they won't shut the fuck up.

I'm not going to bother reading all the comments. There is a definite distinction between an event specifically organized for a "speaker" to put forth his position on an issue, and a debate or a discussion.

It is entirely appropriate to expect the speaker, *after* the conclusion of his presentation, to take questions (including hostile ones) from the assembled masses.

|4.23.09 @ 5:06PM|#

You guys are missing the point. It's plain rude to jeer when during an event.

If I go see Amy Winehouse and she starts slurring and forgetting the lyrics, am I rude for jeering? I don't think so.

So what if it's rude. Where does the the belief in the right not to have to deal with rudeness come from?

Those opposed to the dude should have just set up their own event about how wrong they think he is

Unless your motivation is to tell the dude just how wrong you think he is, rather than telling other how wrong they are.

If you are going to speak, perform, or anything in public, you have to expect that some people are going to jeer/protest/publically disagree with you. Suck it up.

If you want to take your ball and go home because people boo and hiss your performance, or your speech or your stupid point of view...that's your choice. But don't play the fucking victim.

Too many people have been imprisoned, tortured, or killed for speaking their mind that trying to equate a bunch of college kids booing to "persecution" or "stifling of speech" is beyond silly.

Why is that so controversial?

|4.23.09 @ 5:07PM|#

I don't view free speech as a matter of having competing opinions each granted their own walled-off soapbox. The whole point of free speech is to eventually arrive at a few truths here and there. And that's a messy business.

kinnath|4.23.09 @ 5:07PM|#

Privates in the Wehrmacht were not, by-and-large, tried at Nuremberg for war crimes, and you well know this, and you know why.

Find an active duty soldier and ask them yourself.

|4.23.09 @ 5:08PM|#

Episiarch,

I attended Penn State from 1979 to 1982. The vagina to penis ratio was about 3:5. Now its reversed. These are the halcyon days for a penis on a college campus.

|4.23.09 @ 5:08PM|#

One group trying to halt a speech in a auditorium that was organized by a group they oppose, that's just supression of free speech and is antitethical to our supposedly free way of life.

Talk about hyperbole.

"Suppression of free speech" ? really?? the guy decided to quite. It seems to me like the speaker was a pussy.

The guy was given a platform to talk. His right to free speech was protected. Free speech doesn't guarantee a friendly audience.

Ironic|4.23.09 @ 5:09PM|#

"I have no fucking clue why a college campus is a political soapbox. When I go to my fitness club I don't stand on an exercise bench and belch out my political views or complain about the membership fees. When I go an art museum or attend an educational conference on computer science I don't do that either. Maybe the organizers of these events forget to invite the free speech fairy."

You may have a point if you are talking about a private college that accepts no public money - few colleges fit this definition in the United States. But once public funds are entered into the picture property rights go out the window - just ask the banks that accepted TARP money.

|4.23.09 @ 5:12PM|#

When I get home I'm gonna get my Miss Manners book off the shelf for a refresher on when jeers are considered appropriate and when they're considered rude. That will settle the issue.

I'm sure we freedom lovers will all agree that there's nothing criminal about jeering.

|4.23.09 @ 5:13PM|#

They make if very clear that they are trained from the first day of basic that they have duty to refuse an illegal order. Period.

And what happened to the ones who DID in fact refuse to go to Iraq because they though it was an illegal war.

The Iraq war was an illegal war, and no amount of hiding behind the troops is gonna change that.

And the CIA and many medical officers did torture and commit war crimes.

But deciding who the "criminals" are apparently depends on who wins the war, who is chosen for prosecution.

So what if it\'s rude. Where d|4.23.09 @ 5:14PM|#

ChicagoTom | April 23, 2009, 5:06pm | #

You guys are missing the point. It's plain rude to jeer when during an event.

If I go see Amy Winehouse and she starts slurring and forgetting the lyrics, am I rude for jeering? I don't think so.

So what if it's rude. Where does the the belief in the right not to have to deal with rudeness come from?

Those opposed to the dude should have just set up their own event about how wrong they think he is

Unless your motivation is to tell the dude just how wrong you think he is, rather than telling other how wrong they are.

If you are going to speak, perform, or anything in public, you have to expect that some people are going to jeer/protest/publically disagree with you. Suck it up.

If you want to take your ball and go home because people boo and hiss your performance, or your speech or your stupid point of view...that's your choice. But don't play the fucking victim.

Too many people have been imprisoned, tortured, or killed for speaking their mind that trying to equate a bunch of college kids booing to "persecution" or "stifling of speech" is beyond silly.

Why is that so controversial?ChicagoTom | April 23, 2009, 5:06pm | #

You guys are missing the point. It's plain rude to jeer when during an event.

If I go see Amy Winehouse and she starts slurring and forgetting the lyrics, am I rude for jeering? I don't think so.

So what if it's rude. Where does the the belief in the right not to have to deal with rudeness come from?

Those opposed to the dude should have just set up their own event about how wrong they think he is

Unless your motivation is to tell the dude just how wrong you think he is, rather than telling other how wrong they are.

If you are going to speak, perform, or anything in public, you have to expect that some people are going to jeer/protest/publically disagree with you. Suck it up.

If you want to take your ball and go home because people boo and hiss your performance, or your speech or your stupid point of view...that's your choice. But don't play the fucking victim.

Too many people have been imprisoned, tortured, or killed for speaking their mind that trying to equate a bunch of college kids booing to "persecution" or "stifling of speech" is beyond silly.

Why is that so controversial?ChicagoTom | April 23, 2009, 5:06pm | #

You guys are missing the point. It's plain rude to jeer when during an event.

If I go see Amy Winehouse and she starts slurring and forgetting the lyrics, am I rude for jeering? I don't think so.

So what if it's rude. Where does the the belief in the right not to have to deal with rudeness come from?

Those opposed to the dude should have just set up their own event about how wrong they think he is

Unless your motivation is to tell the dude just how wrong you think he is, rather than telling other how wrong they are.

If you are going to speak, perform, or anything in public, you have to expect that some people are going to jeer/protest/publically disagree with you. Suck it up.

If you want to take your ball and go home because people boo and hiss your performance, or your speech or your stupid point of view...that's your choice. But don't play the fucking victim.

Too many people have been imprisoned, tortured, or killed for speaking their mind that trying to equate a bunch of college kids booing to "persecution" or "stifling of speech" is beyond silly.

Why is that so controversial?ChicagoTom | April 23, 2009, 5:06pm | #

You guys are missing the point. It's plain rude to jeer when during an event.

If I go see Amy Winehouse and she starts slurring and forgetting the lyrics, am I rude for jeering? I don't think so.

So what if it's rude. Where does the the belief in the right not to have to deal with rudeness come from?

Those opposed to the dude should have just set up their own event about how wrong they think he is

Unless your motivation is to tell the dude just how wrong you think he is, rather than telling other how wrong they are.

If you are going to speak, perform, or anything in public, you have to expect that some people are going to jeer/protest/publically disagree with you. Suck it up.

If you want to take your ball and go home because people boo and hiss your performance, or your speech or your stupid point of view...that's your choice. But don't play the fucking victim.

Too many people have been imprisoned, tortured, or killed for speaking their mind that trying to equate a bunch of college kids booing to "persecution" or "stifling of speech" is beyond silly.

Why is that so controversial?ChicagoTom | April 23, 2009, 5:06pm | #

You guys are missing the point. It's plain rude to jeer when during an event.

If I go see Amy Winehouse and she starts slurring and forgetting the lyrics, am I rude for jeering? I don't think so.

So what if it's rude. Where does the the belief in the right not to have to deal with rudeness come from?

Those opposed to the dude should have just set up their own event about how wrong they think he is

Unless your motivation is to tell the dude just how wrong you think he is, rather than telling other how wrong they are.

If you are going to speak, perform, or anything in public, you have to expect that some people are going to jeer/protest/publically disagree with you. Suck it up.

If you want to take your ball and go home because people boo and hiss your performance, or your speech or your stupid point of view...that's your choice. But don't play the fucking victim.

Too many people have been imprisoned, tortured, or killed for speaking their mind that trying to equate a bunch of college kids booing to "persecution" or "stifling of speech" is beyond silly.

Why is that so controversial?ChicagoTom | April 23, 2009, 5:06pm | #

You guys are missing the point. It's plain rude to jeer when during an event.

If I go see Amy Winehouse and she starts slurring and forgetting the lyrics, am I rude for jeering? I don't think so.

So what if it's rude. Where does the the belief in the right not to have to deal with rudeness come from?

Those opposed to the dude should have just set up their own event about how wrong they think he is

Unless your motivation is to tell the dude just how wrong you think he is, rather than telling other how wrong they are.

If you are going to speak, perform, or anything in public, you have to expect that some people are going to jeer/protest/publically disagree with you. Suck it up.

If you want to take your ball and go home because people boo and hiss your performance, or your speech or your stupid point of view...that's your choice. But don't play the fucking victim.

Too many people have been imprisoned, tortured, or killed for speaking their mind that trying to equate a bunch of college kids booing to "persecution" or "stifling of speech" is beyond silly.

Why is that so controversial?ChicagoTom | April 23, 2009, 5:06pm | #

You guys are missing the point. It's plain rude to jeer when during an event.

If I go see Amy Winehouse and she starts slurring and forgetting the lyrics, am I rude for jeering? I don't think so.

So what if it's rude. Where does the the belief in the right not to have to deal with rudeness come from?

Those opposed to the dude should have just set up their own event about how wrong they think he is

Unless your motivation is to tell the dude just how wrong you think he is, rather than telling other how wrong they are.

If you are going to speak, perform, or anything in public, you have to expect that some people are going to jeer/protest/publically disagree with you. Suck it up.

If you want to take your ball and go home because people boo and hiss your performance, or your speech or your stupid point of view...that's your choice. But don't play the fucking victim.

Too many people have been imprisoned, tortured, or killed for speaking their mind that trying to equate a bunch of college kids booing to "persecution" or "stifling of speech" is beyond silly.

Why is that so controversial?
ChicagoTom | April 23, 2009, 5:06pm | #

You guys are missing the point. It's plain rude to jeer when during an event.

If I go see Amy Winehouse and she starts slurring and forgetting the lyrics, am I rude for jeering? I don't think so.

So what if it's rude. Where does the the belief in the right not to have to deal with rudeness come from?

Those opposed to the dude should have just set up their own event about how wrong they think he is

Unless your motivation is to tell the dude just how wrong you think he is, rather than telling other how wrong they are.

If you are going to speak, perform, or anything in public, you have to expect that some people are going to jeer/protest/publically disagree with you. Suck it up.

If you want to take your ball and go home because people boo and hiss your performance, or your speech or your stupid point of view...that's your choice. But don't play the fucking victim.

Too many people have been imprisoned, tortured, or killed for speaking their mind that trying to equate a bunch of college kids booing to "persecution" or "stifling of speech" is beyond silly.

Why is that so controversial?ChicagoTom | April 23, 2009, 5:06pm | #

You guys are missing the point. It's plain rude to jeer when during an event.

If I go see Amy Winehouse and she starts slurring and forgetting the lyrics, am I rude for jeering? I don't think so.

So what if it's rude. Where does the the belief in the right not to have to deal with rudeness come from?

Those opposed to the dude should have just set up their own event about how wrong they think he is

Unless your motivation is to tell the dude just how wrong you think he is, rather than telling other how wrong they are.

If you are going to speak, perform, or anything in public, you have to expect that some people are going to jeer/protest/publically disagree with you. Suck it up.

If you want to take your ball and go home because people boo and hiss your performance, or your speech or your stupid point of view...that's your choice. But don't play the fucking victim.

Too many people have been imprisoned, tortured, or killed for speaking their mind that trying to equate a bunch of college kids booing to "persecution" or "stifling of speech" is beyond silly.

Why is that so controversial?ChicagoTom | April 23, 2009, 5:06pm | #

You guys are missing the point. It's plain rude to jeer when during an event.

If I go see Amy Winehouse and she starts slurring and forgetting the lyrics, am I rude for jeering? I don't think so.

So what if it's rude. Where does the the belief in the right not to have to deal with rudeness come from?

Those opposed to the dude should have just set up their own event about how wrong they think he is

Unless your motivation is to tell the dude just how wrong you think he is, rather than telling other how wrong they are.

If you are going to speak, perform, or anything in public, you have to expect that some people are going to jeer/protest/publically disagree with you. Suck it up.

If you want to take your ball and go home because people boo and hiss your performance, or your speech or your stupid point of view...that's your choice. But don't play the fucking victim.

Too many people have been imprisoned, tortured, or killed for speaking their mind that trying to equate a bunch of college kids booing to "persecution" or "stifling of speech" is beyond silly.

Why is that so controversial?ChicagoTom | April 23, 2009, 5:06pm | #

You guys are missing the point. It's plain rude to jeer when during an event.

If I go see Amy Winehouse and she starts slurring and forgetting the lyrics, am I rude for jeering? I don't think so.

So what if it's rude. Where does the the belief in the right not to have to deal with rudeness come from?

Those opposed to the dude should have just set up their own event about how wrong they think he is

Unless your motivation is to tell the dude just how wrong you think he is, rather than telling other how wrong they are.

If you are going to speak, perform, or anything in public, you have to expect that some people are going to jeer/protest/publically disagree with you. Suck it up.

If you want to take your ball and go home because people boo and hiss your performance, or your speech or your stupid point of view...that's your choice. But don't play the fucking victim.

Too many people have been imprisoned, tortured, or killed for speaking their mind that trying to equate a bunch of college kids booing to "persecution" or "stifling of speech" is beyond silly.

Why is that so controversial?ChicagoTom | April 23, 2009, 5:06pm | #

You guys are missing the point. It's plain rude to jeer when during an event.

If I go see Amy Winehouse and she starts slurring and forgetting the lyrics, am I rude for jeering? I don't think so.

So what if it's rude. Where does the the belief in the right not to have to deal with rudeness come from?

Those opposed to the dude should have just set up their own event about how wrong they think he is

Unless your motivation is to tell the dude just how wrong you think he is, rather than telling other how wrong they are.

If you are going to speak, perform, or anything in public, you have to expect that some people are going to jeer/protest/publically disagree with you. Suck it up.

If you want to take your ball and go home because people boo and hiss your performance, or your speech or your stupid point of view...that's your choice. But don't play the fucking victim.

Too many people have been imprisoned, tortured, or killed for speaking their mind that trying to equate a bunch of college kids booing to "persecution" or "stifling of speech" is beyond silly.

Why is that so controversial?ChicagoTom | April 23, 2009, 5:06pm | #

You guys are missing the point. It's plain rude to jeer when during an event.

If I go see Amy Winehouse and she starts slurring and forgetting the lyrics, am I rude for jeering? I don't think so.

So what if it's rude. Where does the the belief in the right not to have to deal with rudeness come from?

Those opposed to the dude should have just set up their own event about how wrong they think he is

Unless your motivation is to tell the dude just how wrong you think he is, rather than telling other how wrong they are.

If you are going to speak, perform, or anything in public, you have to expect that some people are going to jeer/protest/publically disagree with you. Suck it up.

If you want to take your ball and go home because people boo and hiss your performance, or your speech or your stupid point of view...that's your choice. But don't play the fucking victim.

Too many people have been imprisoned, tortured, or killed for speaking their mind that trying to equate a bunch of college kids booing to "persecution" or "stifling of speech" is beyond silly.

Why is that so controversial?ChicagoTom | April 23, 2009, 5:06pm | #

You guys are missing the point. It's plain rude to jeer when during an event.

If I go see Amy Winehouse and she starts slurring and forgetting the lyrics, am I rude for jeering? I don't think so.

So what if it's rude. Where does the the belief in the right not to have to deal with rudeness come from?

Those opposed to the dude should have just set up their own event about how wrong they think he is

Unless your motivation is to tell the dude just how wrong you think he is, rather than telling other how wrong they are.

If you are going to speak, perform, or anything in public, you have to expect that some people are going to jeer/protest/publically disagree with you. Suck it up.

If you want to take your ball and go home because people boo and hiss your performance, or your speech or your stupid point of view...that's your choice. But don't play the fucking victim.

Too many people have been imprisoned, tortured, or killed for speaking their mind that trying to equate a bunch of college kids booing to "persecution" or "stifling of speech" is beyond silly.

Why is that so controversial?ChicagoTom | April 23, 2009, 5:06pm | #

You guys are missing the point. It's plain rude to jeer when during an event.

If I go see Amy Winehouse and she starts slurring and forgetting the lyrics, am I rude for jeering? I don't think so.

So what if it's rude. Where does the the belief in the right not to have to deal with rudeness come from?

Those opposed to the dude should have just set up their own event about how wrong they think he is

Unless your motivation is to tell the dude just how wrong you think he is, rather than telling other how wrong they are.

If you are going to speak, perform, or anything in public, you have to expect that some people are going to jeer/protest/publically disagree with you. Suck it up.

If you want to take your ball and go home because people boo and hiss your performance, or your speech or your stupid point of view...that's your choice. But don't play the fucking victim.

Too many people have been imprisoned, tortured, or killed for speaking their mind that trying to equate a bunch of college kids booing to "persecution" or "stifling of speech" is beyond silly.

Why is that so controversial?

|4.23.09 @ 5:15PM|#

Too much credit given. Chicks dig guys they think are hot. They make up a lot of bullshit rationalizations as to why this or that guy, but that's basically what is going on.

Chicks dig guys for a number of reasons, not just looks. Two of the others are confidence and intensity. A guy who gets up in front of a crowd and speechifies is showing confidence, and in the case of activists, intensity.

These are the halcyon days for a penis on a college campus.

Well, it's been that way for a long time.

Richard Stands|4.23.09 @ 5:16PM|#

Who owns the venue? Were both parties to the security services bound by contract? Did either side breach that contract?

Those seem like more operative initial questions to me.

I'd agree that heckling is not a free speech issue, but simply evidence of poor self control, bad manners, guerrilla politics, or insecurely held beliefs. All legal.

kinnath|4.23.09 @ 5:16PM|#

ChiTom:

The opposition has every right to stand outside the auditorium and protest as loudly as they want. They could organize counter-speeches outside the auditorium. There are lots of ways to show their righteous indignation.

But, they were clearly intent on preventing the speaker from making his points. This crosses the line as far as I am concerned.

The entire point of the 1st is to make sure that people with ideas you don't like have an opportunity to speak their minds.

Ironic|4.23.09 @ 5:18PM|#

"Too many people have been imprisoned, tortured, or killed for speaking their mind that trying to equate a bunch of college kids booing to "persecution" or "stifling of speech" is beyond silly."

This comes down to a "tragedy of the commons" most colleges in the United States are either public institutions or accept federal financial aide. So I cannot blame a college student for thinking "Hey, I have just as much a right to be heard as that guy up on stage!" From a property rights perspective he does if it is a public institution.

EscapedWestOfTheBigMuddy|4.23.09 @ 5:21PM|#

that fictional set (Machiavellian Liberal College Student Protest Organizers)

Not entirely fictional. I've met one. At a Univ. of Calf. campus not to be named (but slightly less kooky than Berkeley) in the early 90's. Oddly (or not) he wasn't actually very popular with the "you're all so apathetic, come out a do something worthwhile" crowd 'round there.


And I'm going to disagree with you a bit on the heckling thing. Beyond some (impossible to pin down) point heckling passes from merely rude to an attack on the marketplace of ideas.

Regulation of this is and should be outside the purvey of the government, but the hecklers veto is a censorous tool, and I have nothing but scorn for those who employ it, and judge their position with that in mind.

Mind you, it is not clear from the article, that the line was crossed in the case reported. You need a thick skin to speak in public.

kinnath|4.23.09 @ 5:21PM|#

The Iraq war was an illegal war, and no amount of hiding behind the troops is gonna change that.

I'm not hiding behind the troops. I am merely relaying information that was provided in a different forum that I frequented during the height of the war. This information was provided by an active duty military lawyer.

I'm just saying if you say the war was illegal, then all the soldiers that participated are criminals.

I expect you to take full credit for what you claim when you claim it -- none of the "the war is illegal, but I support the troops" bullshit.

|4.23.09 @ 5:24PM|#

But, they were clearly intent on preventing the speaker from making his points. This crosses the line as far as I am concerned.

I don't agree at all.

Mocking the speaker doesn't show a clear intent to prevent him from making his points.

Read the article. These kids laughed and jeered and turned their chairs. None of that is a "clear intent" to prevent him from speaking. The clear intent was to ridicule him and mock him.

No one shouted him down. (one person piped up and then promptly left).

You aren't entitled to a friendly audience if an event is open the public.

It may be rude, but it isn't suppression of speech.

|4.23.09 @ 5:25PM|#

How clever of Bush! He gets to escape punishment for his war crimes by employing soldiers in his illegal war.

|4.23.09 @ 5:27PM|#

I wonder how forcefully Tony would support my free speech rights if I was standing in the aisle loudly chanting "BullShit! BullShit! BullShit! during a speech about global warming by former Vice President Gore.

kinnath|4.23.09 @ 5:29PM|#

How clever of Bush! He gets to escape punishment for his war crimes by employing soldiers in his illegal war.

No Tony, the appropriate response would be for Obama to round up the former president, former vice-president, the cabinet, the joint chiefs, the top couple of tiers at the pentagon and then prosecute them.

The president could then use prosecutorial discretion and choose not to pursue criminal complaints against the rank and file in the military.

However, using that discretion does not mean the rank and file did not actually participate in war crimes.

You should push your elected representatives to start the trials as soon as possible.

|4.23.09 @ 5:33PM|#

P Brooks,

I'm radical in my support of free speech. In all issues I usually prefer to err on the side of more speech.

As I said above, I don't believe free speech implies that everyone gets to say his piece free of contradiction or even verbal harassment. I believe it is pragmatically useful and has the goal of arriving at truths. That means there are consequences to speech. Either you're taken seriously or ridiculed.

Your ranting at Al Gore will only serve to paint you as an idiot who refuses to disabuse himself of his lack of scientific literacy. Knock yourself out dude.

|4.23.09 @ 5:34PM|#

Hit&Run seems to be having technical problems.

Lord Jubjub|4.23.09 @ 5:37PM|#

So what if you had a score of people screaming "Bullshit" in the aisles while Gore was speaking? What if they were so loud that few people could understand what he was saying?

|4.23.09 @ 5:37PM|#

I am merely relaying information that was provided in a different forum that I frequented during the height of the war. This information was provided by an active duty military lawyer.

I don't want to re-fight fights from 2003, but the Iraq war was in fact an illegal war.

The war was waged on false pretenses. There were no WMD in Iraq, Iraq wasn't in violation of UN resolutions nor did Iraq have anything to with 9/11. So basically the AUMF didn't really apply to Iraq.

It was an unprovoked act of aggression against a sovereign nation.

And yes you are hiding behind the troops with your bullshit "if you think the war was illegal than you think the troops are war criminals".

The troops that did refuse an illegal order were courtmartialed. They were intimidated and they were persecuted. So many troops were left with rather stark choices to make. Do what they think is right, or risk having your life ruined, knowing full well that the real criminals, the ones giving the orders, were going to never pay any price.

I didn't support the war, but I wanted our troops to come back safe and swiftly. They were placed in an impossible position by their leaders.

|4.23.09 @ 5:38PM|#

So what if you had a score of people screaming "Bullshit" in the aisles while Gore was speaking? What if they were so loud that few people could understand what he was saying?

Well the venue could remove those people.

other than that, so what if they did ?

I don't get what kind of "gotcha" point this is trying to make?

|4.23.09 @ 5:40PM|#

Your ranting at Al Gore will only serve to paint you as an idiot who refuses to disabuse himself of his lack of scientific literacy.

Mmm'kay

|4.23.09 @ 5:41PM|#

kinnath,

That sounds fine to me. I think practically speaking the soldiers are mostly victims of Bush's war crimes, but they're not sacrosanct either, and some have committed specific war crimes themselves.

Elemenope|4.23.09 @ 5:42PM|#

Find an active duty soldier and ask them yourself.

Nice non sequitor, and way to not address the fact at issue.

You aren't entitled to a friendly audience if an event is open the public.

I'm personally confused why so many self-proclaimed libertarians refuse to get this. After all, who knows better than we do that getting mocked and shouted at is part and parcel of sharing ideas in a public setting?

Lord Jubjub|4.23.09 @ 5:43PM|#

Wouldn't the score of people screaming bullshit have their free speech violated by being removed?

|4.23.09 @ 5:46PM|#

I think this has been a good discussion, except for the occasional text walls. I'll be back once I've consulted Miss Manners so we can put the issue to rest.

|4.23.09 @ 5:47PM|#

"In all issues I usually prefer to err on the side of more speech noise."

Gilbert Martin|4.23.09 @ 5:47PM|#

"By the way, a ticket to an event is a contract. Unless the heckler breaks into an event, he or she is bound by the same contract as I am."

Exactly.

It's no different that buying a ticket to a movie at Carmike.

It doesn't give one the right to jump up and down shouting and screaming while the movie is playing. It is depriving the other moviegoers from the entertainment product they purchased and the theater operater is quite correct to throw anyone engaging in that behavior out on their ass.

Jordan|4.23.09 @ 5:48PM|#

I'm radical in my support of free speech. In all issues I usually prefer to err on the side of more speech.

Is throwing pies at people you disagree with a hallmark of radical support of free speech?

|4.23.09 @ 5:56PM|#

It doesn't give one the right to jump up and down shouting and screaming while the movie is playing. It is depriving the other moviegoers from the entertainment product they purchased and the theater operater is quite correct to throw anyone engaging in that behavior out on their ass.

That's for the venue to decide, not the patrons. The patrons can file a complaint with the venue and the venue will decide appropriate action.

And I've asked previously, and people keep ignoring it.

Is booing, or jeering or hissing really that disruptive? Is it even heckling?

If I boo a performer because they are putting on a bad show, am I being disruptive or am I giving them important feedback?

|4.23.09 @ 5:59PM|#

I'm personally confused why so many self-proclaimed libertarians refuse to get this.

I don't get it either.

if you want a friendly audience without protests or mockery or whatever, then go rent a private venue and sell tickets or give them away to like minded individuals.

if you are gonna set up shop in a public venue, then don't cry when people exercise their right to mock you.

Michael Richards|4.23.09 @ 6:01PM|#

"If I boo a performer because they are putting on a bad show, am I being disruptive or am I giving them important feedback?"

It can be very disruptive and lead the performer to act in a way he or she normally would not. It could cause a performer to act in desperate ways rather than rationally try to improve the performance.

The Angry Optimist|4.23.09 @ 6:01PM|#

if you want to boo after the speaker's made his point, go ahead. It sounds like the emptyheaded college students just did it before the man spoke, which bespeaks of their dripping ignorance (not that I didn't have confirmation bias in this regard).

kinnath is exactly right re: the war crimes thing. There was nothing illegal about Iraq, though, so you can all either make a legal case or shut the fuck up about it already.

Richard Stands|4.23.09 @ 6:01PM|#

Wouldn't the score of people screaming bullshit have their free speech violated by being removed?

If they were on public ground, yes. If a private venue had them ejected from private property, no.

The Angry Optimist|4.23.09 @ 6:03PM|#

ChicagoTom - logically speaking, you would then support it if, in a public auditorium, 500 people came in, all with megaphones, and completely drowned out the speaker?

Ironic|4.23.09 @ 6:03PM|#

"if you want a friendly audience without protests or mockery or whatever, then go rent a private venue and sell tickets or give them away to like minded individuals.

if you are gonna set up shop in a public venue, then don't cry when people exercise their right to mock you."

Question, when you say "public venue" do you mean "government ownen" or simply "open to the public". This does matter. I may or may not agree with you depending on your meaning.

The Angry Optimist|4.23.09 @ 6:03PM|#

Hey guys, try this: you know your Statehouse is public property, right? Try going in there and shouting like a crazy person and see how far that gets you.

|4.23.09 @ 6:07PM|#

There was nothing illegal about Iraq, though, so you can all either make a legal case or shut the fuck up about it already.

Unlike the "American Exceptionalists" among us, I would be delighted to see Bush make his case; at the Hague.

If I had the authority to slap the cuffs on that fucker, I would not hesitate to do so.

Ironic|4.23.09 @ 6:07PM|#

"Hey guys, try this: you know your Statehouse is public property, right? Try going in there and shouting like a crazy person and see how far that gets you."

Just because a thing is prohibbited does not mean it should be.

Ironic|4.23.09 @ 6:09PM|#

"If I had the authority to slap the cuffs on that fucker, I would not hesitate to do so."

We all do have the authority of citizen's arrest.

|4.23.09 @ 6:09PM|#

If you believe in the If the President Does it, it Cannot be Illegal Doctrine, then guess what:

Fuck

You.

|4.23.09 @ 6:10PM|#

I'm hiring the Hell's Angels as security for my next campus public speaking engagement.

Orange Line Special|4.23.09 @ 6:16PM|#

Jim Geraghty wants '100-1,000 [tea partiers to] show up at a town council, city council, etc. meeting... with the same message of "don't waste my money"'.

When I pointed out to him that that was like something ACORN would do, he called me names. Ergo, Reason agrees with him.

|4.23.09 @ 6:17PM|#

Methinks Tony is okay with heckling as a form of free speech in this case primarily because he agrees with the hecklers.

He doesn't strike me as a very deep thinker.

|4.23.09 @ 6:19PM|#

Hey guys, try this: you know your Statehouse is public property, right? Try going in there and shouting like a crazy person and see how far that gets you

If you call your lazy local TV news reporter first and say something about children you'll be on the air 6:00pm.

Team America World Police|4.23.09 @ 6:25PM|#

Gary:
When I was a kid, I always looked up to my older brother, Tommy. He was the jock and I was the little performer. We were all out at the zoo one day. I was doing some acting, walking on the railing of the gorilla exhibit. I fell in. Everyone screamed and Tommy jumped in after me, forgetting that he had blueberries in his front pocket. The gorillas just went wild and... they jumped all over his body and... threw him around like a rag doll to get to those blueberries. One gorilla would throw him to another gorilla who... tossed him to another. Every panicked and... cried out for somebody to help but... it was too late. The gorillas... beat him to death before the zookeepers could gas them all. My acting... got my brother kid. [Lisa is paying attention, looking at him from time to time] I've had to live with that... every single day.

Lisa:
Gary, you can't blame yourself for what gorillas did.

|4.23.09 @ 6:25PM|#

Okay here's the scoop on the manners of jeering:

At both musical events and speeches, one may express approval or disapproval, because you cannot allow one without the other. At musical events, booing is okay throughout since applause is allowed throughout. At speeches, the proper method of expressing disapproval is getting up and walking out. Applause is generally the method of expressing approval in both venues.

jk|4.23.09 @ 6:39PM|#

Tony, Tony, Tony:

If you're at a music concert with a gal you want to fuck (I have no idea why would be there otherwise) you want to buy an alcoholic beverage, the largest one available, and play Zuma on your cellular phone until the event is over.

The Angry Optimist|4.23.09 @ 6:41PM|#

Unlike the "American Exceptionalists" among us, I would be delighted to see Bush make his case; at the Hague.

You need a charge that won't get you laughed out of the Hague first.

Ironic|4.23.09 @ 6:48PM|#

"You need a charge that won't get you laughed out of the Hague first."

Ordering someone's death is considered murder in most jurisdictions - oh - I forgot - if you win a popularity contest first it is OK.

Mick Jagger|4.23.09 @ 6:54PM|#

I'm hiring the Hell's Angels as security for my next campus public speaking engagement.

Everyone, just cool out. Just cool out.

MNG|4.23.09 @ 7:27PM|#

I think all this missed the point. No need to talk about who has what right. It's just ill mannered to go to a public event that was plainly billed as a speech and disrupt the planned event. If you don't like the event then you should plan your own event, not deprive folks of what they came to experience.

The Amy Winehouse example I don't think fits: they came to see Amy perform and she did badly. Jeers might be appropriate there, but if the jeers were disrupting her very performance then that's rude too.

"There was nothing illegal about Iraq"

Do you mean the decision to go in? Or nothing illegal in how the war was prosecuted? I've heard some cases made about some actions the military took that war crimes in a technical sense may have been committed. And one could make an argument that some of the torture was illegal, both by our and international standards, and it seems to me the person most high up and OK'ed it should answer. But I think all that's a waste of time really.

MNG|4.23.09 @ 7:30PM|#

The "war crimes" case usually rests on some kind of logic like this: Bush lied and misrepresented intelligence information that was used to get the AUMF passed, and hence the war was illegally gotten into.

I don't know much about international law, but frankly I've never been convinced that many people on this site do either...So whether a clever prosecutor given free political reign could come up with a proper charge, I dunno, but wouldn't rule it out so casually.

MNG|4.23.09 @ 7:38PM|#

"At speeches, the proper method of expressing disapproval is getting up and walking out."

That's the right answer imo. But these dudes knew ahead of time they were going to object to the speech. So they just should not have went. Or if they felt the need to challenge the guys ideas, they should have asked a question afterwards.

Elemenope|4.23.09 @ 8:01PM|#

MNG -

Nearly all of us think that heckling a speaker is at best childish and at worst despicable. The problem from my end is Cathy Young (or anyone else) seriously characterizing heckling as a "silencing of controversial speech".

kinnath|4.23.09 @ 8:36PM|#

"silencing of controversial speech".

If you go to an event and find out after you get there that you don't agree with the speaker, you can boo, hiss, the get up and leave.

If you know you don't agree with the speaker before you go, and you go with the intent of being disruptive, then you are in fact attempting to silence someone you don't agree with.

kinnath|4.23.09 @ 8:41PM|#

The war was waged on false pretenses. There were no WMD in Iraq, Iraq wasn't in violation of UN resolutions nor did Iraq have anything to with 9/11. So basically the AUMF didn't really apply to Iraq.

It was an unprovoked act of aggression against a sovereign nation.

So you claim. If this is in fact true, then the entire military complex had a legal and moral duty to refuse to participate.

And yes you are hiding behind the troops with your bullshit "if you think the war was illegal than you think the troops are war criminals".

I am not hiding behind this. I am stating that if Bush illegally started a war, then BY THE LAWS OF THE UNITED STATES all military participants are war criminals.

Deal with it.

EscapedWestOfTheBigMuddy|4.23.09 @ 8:50PM|#

And yes you are hiding behind the troops with your bullshit "if you think the war was illegal than you think the troops are war criminals".

I am not hiding behind this. I am stating that if Bush illegally started a war, then BY THE LAWS OF THE UNITED STATES all military participants are war criminals.

Not any kind of lawyer, much less a military one, but I've discussed this with people who professed to know what was going on.

A soldier (sailor, marine, airman) has a duty to obey orders, and a duty to refuse illegal orders. At the same time barracks lawyering will not be tolerated, and on the battle field could conceivably result in a .45 discharge.

So, I am told, the best thing is to get you objections on record and get your order in writing.

I don't see how this protects you, but it presumably prevents the "a few bad apples" ploy from your immediate superiors.

Suki|4.23.09 @ 8:57PM|#

GO fuck yourself ed.

Yes, ChicagoT, keep it classy Sir.

I love that ed seems to have elected himself the arbiter of what is and isn't civilized.

Those of us who know what polite is agree with him, not you.

Don't you have some women to club and drag home by the hair?

Ironic|4.23.09 @ 9:38PM|#

***WARNING: GODWIN'S LAW HEREBY ENACTED***

Sorry, but this is actualy justified:

"So, I am told, the best thing is to get you objections on record and get your order in writing."

Would that have protected the German Soldiers at Auschwitz? Just asking.

herodotus|4.23.09 @ 9:56PM|#

People who heckle and jeer are cowards.

They have the instinct to fight that is part of the human condition, but instead of being an honest bunch of soccer hooligans and getting rid of their aggression in acts of violence, they interrupt speeches and musical shows and comedy acts. It's misdirected energy.

I think it probable that the reason for this is simple fear of physical pain. Honest fighting can hurt. There are actual risks involved. Heckling, on the other hand, is generally gotten away with.

We live in an effeminate culture, but the normal masculine urge to combativeness is still in most males. Arguing is a proper sublimation of this urge. Heckling and other activities, like say hanging out in internet forums where you know everyone disagrees with you, is a childish equivalent. It's like slapping someone to initiate a duel and then running to the police, screaming 'That man is trying to kill me!'

Kind of pathetic, really.

EscapedWestOfTheBigMuddy|4.23.09 @ 10:08PM|#

***WARNING: GODWIN'S LAW HEREBY ENACTED***

Sorry, but this is actualy justified:

"So, I am told, the best thing is to get you objections on record and get your order in writing."

Would that have protected the German Soldiers at Auschwitz? Just asking.

Lets look again at the bit you quoted, only with the wee-est bit more context:

So, I am told, the best thing is to get you objections on record and get your order in writing.

I don't see how this protects you, [...]

Now, see there. One more phrase---and just a little one at that---and I made you alleged point.

Reading comprehension people, reading comprehension.

EscapedWestOfTheBigMuddy|4.23.09 @ 10:25PM|#

Musing on the question "How would asking for your orders in writing help?", brought me to this conclusion: it forces the person giving the order to confront the "sacrifice myself or do something immoral dilemma before you have to face to it yourself.

With the orders in writing they won't be able to claim it happened without their consent, though if they didn't get written order their superiors might be able to.

In theory this might work, but it requires that each link in the chain of command be either moral enough to object or sufficiently afraid of retribution to be unwilling to take responsibility.

I suspect it fails as often as it works, but the alternatives are facing martyrdom alone or selling your soul.

Ironic|4.23.09 @ 10:49PM|#

EscapedWestOfTheBigMuddy,

I was not being critical of you, I was merely emphasizing.

Ironic|4.23.09 @ 10:54PM|#

"I suspect it fails as often as it works, but the alternatives are facing martyrdom alone or selling your soul."

The United States and many other countries allow conscientious objectors to resign and have an honorable discharge or at least a discharge that is not dishonorable in nature.

EscapedWestOfTheBigMuddy|4.23.09 @ 11:15PM|#

Ironic,
Uh....ah! The username. I get it. Really.

I..um..retract the sarcasm. Sorry, dude.

EscapedWestOfTheBigMuddy|4.23.09 @ 11:21PM|#

The United States and many other countries allow conscientious objectors to resign and have an honorable discharge or at least a discharge that is not dishonorable in nature.

With various restriction on when, where, and why. With a lot of paperwork. Requiring a considerable amount of time to complete, and at least sometimes with the soldier expected to complete their assigned duties in the mean time.

It is certainly the right way to go when conditions permit. However, the discussion this came up in concerned itself with a situation near the battlefield, and with minutes of lead time.

Different problem.

alan|4.23.09 @ 11:50PM|#

I was finding myself in disagreement with you until you made this damn good point:

ChicagoTom | April 23, 2009, 5:06pm | #

You guys are missing the point. It's plain rude to jeer when during an event.

If I go see Amy Winehouse and she starts slurring and forgetting the lyrics, am I rude for jeering? I don't think so.

ChicagoTom at a Dylan concert:

ChiTom: Boooo! You can't sing. You wasted the money your momma gave you for lessons on house cleaner treated dope.

alan|4.23.09 @ 11:52PM|#

However, this thread should be flagged for future reference. Those who have no problem with hecklers should not have a problem with spoofers either.

alan|4.23.09 @ 11:56PM|#

Oh, and why would you buy tickets to an Amy Winehouse concert other than for the fact you have a fair chance of seeing her literally die on stage?

You are just taking your chances that you had to suffer through a horribly warbly performance for two hours, and another audience gets the big pay off, but you knew that going in.

alan|4.24.09 @ 12:04AM|#

fourth post, I must be a heckler.


Nearly all of us think that heckling a speaker is at best childish and at worst despicable. The problem from my end is Cathy Young (or anyone else) seriously characterizing heckling as a "silencing of controversial speech".

Agreed that there is a lack of distinction between what the state, or its principles that operate a college does and what some random college fifteen-minute-hate group tries to accomplish. Libertarians of all people should see that quite readily. It is what seperates us from the animals, or in this case, neocons.

|4.24.09 @ 1:20AM|#

Miss Manners has ruled people. Time to move on.

Audiences that can express approval can also express disapproval.

Audiences at concerts applaud or boo throughout to express their opinion, though most audiences are delicately mannered enough not to boo too often.

Audiences at speeches are sometimes applauded throughout, but as verbal articulation matters, it would be rude for a dissenter to disrupt others' presumed enjoyment of the event. The proper recourse is to stand and walk out, using as much dramatic flair as necessary to convey your disgust.

|4.24.09 @ 2:10AM|#

I am surprised nobody has focused on the fact that this heckling is hardly spontaneous. This is orchestrated heckling, deliberately organized by opposing activist groups.

JB|4.24.09 @ 3:22AM|#

Leftists are thugs and the most close-minded people you will meet on this planet. They are 'open-minded' to everyone that thinks exactly like them.

Danny|4.24.09 @ 3:39AM|#

I'm in the 7th grade and I was expecting some surprising arguments in this debate and to possibly learn something. But I mostly learned what a complete prick Chicago Tom is.

don\'t you fret none|4.24.09 @ 3:42AM|#

Ah, it's okay Danny. You might not have walked away enlightened, but Chicago Tom is still a prick.

High Every Body|4.24.09 @ 8:29AM|#

Looks like Tony is trying to take the prick crown away from ChicagoT.

anarch|4.24.09 @ 9:10PM|#

Heckler: "Go ahead, Al! Tell 'em all you know! It won't take long!"

Al Smith: "I'll tell 'em all we both know. It won't take any longer."

And that, my friends, is the only place I'm pleased to see heckling: In memorabilia.

Mesopotamian shoes excepted.

Tony can suck my Tony.|4.25.09 @ 2:58AM|#

By his own "logic" we should execute Tony and all other anti-war protesters because they have the blood of every one of the million victims we found in Saddam's mass graves on their hands; therefore, they are traitors and war criminals guilty of crimes against humanity for all their obstructions of the effort to take out the terrorist dictator Saddam Hussein.

Short of that, I suppose we could always piss on him and his treasonous comrades at their astroturfed "peace" demonstrations... if they ever hold another demonstration now that their catamite is in office. (You know how vocal these hypocrites have been in protesting FUB0bama's continuation of the, er, "Overseas Contingency Operation" right now, right?) Of course, some of those faggots might appreciate the "golden shower" I suppose, but that can no more be helped than if their butt buddy Saddam had been getting some kinky pleasure out of having a noose slipped around his neck.

Speaking of 0bama, if throwing food in people's faces is free speech according to Tony, why don't we pelt his racist Messiah with Oreos? It's only fair.