Reason Magazine
- reason.com
- reason.tv
- reason.org
- Donate
- Site Search:
Reason on Facebook
Reason on Twitter
Reason on YouTube
Reason RSSGet Reason E-mail Updates!
Manage your Reason e-mail list subscriptionsadvertisements
"Merit Pay Is An Insult"
Below is a quotation from an NPR teaser for an All Things Considered segment later today on the crumbling public schools of Detroit:
"I won't even entertain merit pay because merit pay is an insult."
-- Detroit teacher & union member
Sure, it's not in context, but still....
|4.21.09 @ 8:22AM|#
When our children grow up to be retarded, we will have no one to blame but the teachers.
Mike in PA|4.21.09 @ 8:38AM|#
Oh I can't wait for this...
One thing though, please stop calling them "public" schools. They
are "government" schools.
|4.21.09 @ 8:46AM|#
So what to do if you are a teacher and all your little charges
are incorrigible due to a complete lack of home trainin'? No, you
can't beat the little shitters. But they will certainly hurt your
performance.
Merit pay should go hand in hand with real discipline and certain
behavioural requirements of the students.
|4.21.09 @ 8:47AM|#
The problem is that without market forces merit pay schemes are
doomed to fail. How do you decide merit pay? For example, I live in
alledgedly the best school system in the Washington area. But, the
area is rich and full of PHD scientists at NIH and lawyers and
other highly educated government bureaucrats. Of course the schools
do well. If you are teaching a bunch of kids from stable motivated
families that have two IQ parents, it isn't that hard to do well. A
bad teacher in a district like that is going to do better than a
great one in a district with more challenging students.
I don't see how a bureaucrat or a manager can sort out who is a
good teacher and who isn't. Some really good ones could. But, more
often than not merit pay will just be a scheme to pay those that go
along and get along or kiss the right butt more than who is
actually the best teacher.
The sollution is to have school choice. Then the market and the
aggregate choices of parents and students gives a metric by which
you can judge merit. Good teachers will attract more and better
students, thus giving managers a way to evaluate them.
Vouchers for all|4.21.09 @ 8:48AM|#
I heard this same teaser on my way into work and nearly wrecked my car. The sense of entitlement is breathtaking.
|4.21.09 @ 8:49AM|#
In other news: PETA is planning a march on Talladega this Nascar
race weekend. They are protesting a world record attempt for most
people in a chicken dance. In all fairness, the attempt is being
sponsored by KFC.
sorry for the threadjack
|4.21.09 @ 8:51AM|#
stable motivated families that have two IQ
parents
Two IQ? I'm surprised they figured out how to mate.
the innominate one|4.21.09 @ 8:52AM|#
Whether merit pay works well or not depends on how the criteria for the merit pay system are developed and implemented and what the criteria are. At the last college at which I taught, instructors' yearly evaluations were based solely on student evaluations, which aren't exactly objective. Are you surprised to hear that high instructor evaluation scores and mean class grades are highly correlated? Me neither.
creech|4.21.09 @ 8:53AM|#
For teachers with this attitude, paying them minimum wage is an insult to those who pay. And maybe the next teachers' strike should be about the district setting behavioral standards and disciplinary measures instead of "more money."
|4.21.09 @ 8:54AM|#
John:
It's called baseline data. No one would be going in to evaluate
these kids blind (at least I would hope not).
However, I would never expect a government entity to accurately and
equitably implement outcome measures in the same way parents would
if given greater school choice.
|4.21.09 @ 9:01AM|#
"It's called baseline data. No one would be going in to evaluate
these kids blind (at least I would hope not)."
It is not that simple. What baseline data? Test scores? If you do
that you just get people teaching to the test. if you don't have
tests, where does your data come from?
Moreover, getting a group of really disfunctional kids to improve
at all could be harder than getting motivated kids to improve a
lot. Give me 40 motivated smart kids and it won't be that hard for
their scores to improve a lot over a year. Give me 40 kids who
aren't and they might not improve very much despite the best
efforts. But by baseline data, the teacher with the best kids still
does better.
The sorry truth is that half of the reason our schools fail is
because parents don't make their kids work hard. Talk to any
teacher and you will hear horror stories about trying to hold kids
accountable only to have parents scream bloody murder. The failure
of our schools are a societal issue as much as anything else.
|4.21.09 @ 9:01AM|#
The problem with school choice, as I see it, is that the good parents will move their children to the better schools and the Maury parents will not bother. You will end up with some amazingly bad schools that will be shuttered due to NCLB. The correction of the problem has to start in the home, not in school choice.
|4.21.09 @ 9:04AM|#
John,
I agree with your concerns. It's pretty tough for a kid to do well
in school if his or her parent(s) (for whatever reason) can't give
the student much quality time of their own.
High Every Body|4.21.09 @ 9:06AM|#
Slightly off topic:
Ninth Circuit Court Extends Second Amendment Rights
Pretty sure Reason will get around to covering this sooner or
later soon.
|4.21.09 @ 9:12AM|#
"I agree with your concerns. It's pretty tough for a kid to do
well in school if his or her parent(s) (for whatever reason) can't
give the student much quality time of their own."
Or they don't hold them responsible and make them work. Even the
motivated smart kids are being cheated in a lot of ways. You look
at the children of rich successful parents and they really are not
being given an education. Instead, they are being taught how to
play the game. How to do exactly what the teacher wants. How to do
pointless volunteer and community service crap to pad their
resumes. Those kids are not being taught how to think or take risks
or be creative or many of the skills that are necessary to be a
truly educated person. Instead, they are being taught to memorize
and think whatever will get you ahead.
Abdul|4.21.09 @ 9:12AM|#
The sorry truth is that half of the reason our schools fail
is because parents don't make their kids work hard. Talk to any
teacher and you will hear horror stories about trying to hold kids
accountable only to have parents scream bloody murder. The failure
of our schools are a societal issue as much as anything
else.
Of course teachers don't control all the relevant variables in
student success. However, the marginal propensity for poor
parenting falls relatively equally across schools. Some teachers
are able to make a silk purse out some momma's sow's ear. If you
pay those teachers a little more, you'll incesntivize whatever
they're doing right.
|4.21.09 @ 9:15AM|#
Something tells me this person would not be one of the teachers actually *receiving* merit pay.
|4.21.09 @ 10:00AM|#
The problem with school choice, as I see it, is that the
good parents will move their children to the better schools and the
Maury parents will not bother.
Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. The current system
hurts the kids of both good and bad parents. A system that rewarded
good parenting would at least help some kids that are now suffering
in bad schools, and, hey, rewarding good parenting just might
encourage good parenting.
really|4.21.09 @ 10:06AM|#
"You will end up with some amazingly bad schools that will be
shuttered due to NCLB"
as they should be... that's where the correction really starts.
closing the worst schools and firing bad teachers.
Jozef|4.21.09 @ 10:06AM|#
One thing though, please stop calling them "public" schools.
They are "government" schools.
They are not government "schools". They are government "juvenile
detention facilities". From the same NPR this morning, reporting on
the Ibuprofen strip search case that's today at the Supreme Court:
"The fact that the girl was a honor student and never had any
disciplinary problem does not indicate she was following school
rules, only that she never got caught, according to the lawyer for
the school district." (Paraphrased.)
Boston|4.21.09 @ 10:13AM|#
From the same NPR this morning, reporting on the Ibuprofen
strip search case that's today at the Supreme Court: "The fact that
the girl was a honor student and never had any disciplinary problem
does not indicate she was following school rules, only that she
never got caught, according to the lawyer for the school district."
(Paraphrased.)
Along those same lines my jaw nearly hit the floor reading a WaPo
editorial siding with the school board
here.
I mean Fvck. I would have thought my rage level would have subsided
after hearing about the case ten times, but alas, it has not.
Medic|4.21.09 @ 10:21AM|#
"When our children grow up to be retarded, we will have no one
to blame but the teachers."----
No you have no one to blame but yourself.
Education comes down to the parent.
If you can't take the time to educate your child then you should be
on birth control or use a condom.
Don't blame the government for a failing education system.
Blame every single parent who uses the system as a daycare.
While your child might end up flipping burgers; mine will have a
chance to get a good college education and doing something worth
while with their lives.
No magic worked in our house.
I work 40-45 hrs a week as an RN. And my partner, he works part
time from home and spends his day with our child.
We co-op with several other families and have home schooling
everyday.
Something you might want to consider.
We take no state assistance, none of us are on UE and we are not
putting our children in that backwards brain numbing system you
call 'Public education'
-Medic
|4.21.09 @ 10:22AM|#
From the WaPo-
The Supreme Court should strike down the lower-court ruling.
School officials must have the flexibility to act quickly and
decisively to avert all manner of danger. Fear of being sued for
making reasonable if controversial judgment calls will only chill
these efforts.
I see "danger" has entered the realm of words without meaning.
phalkor|4.21.09 @ 10:23AM|#
Those kids are not being taught how to think or take risks
or be creative or many of the skills that are necessary to be a
truly educated person. Instead, they are being taught to memorize
and think whatever will get you ahead.
lies. or at least out-and-out exaggeration. while it is evidently
true that learned ability to "play the game" is what allows
advantaged children to keep their advantage that is a silly
oversimplification of why children of successful people are
successful. Actually it sounds like whining...I digest.
My issue with that statement is it seems to discredit a lot of the
good things high school kids do as a ploy to "pad the resume". I
used to deride these overacheivers with my slacker friends, but now
think there is a twinge of jealousy. I suppose I wanted to be a
high-flier as well, just not as much. Kids don't have equal
encouragement, ambition, or aptitude. Neither do teachers.
I just wonder how long the current education system can continue to
fail. When did it start failing? I don't really know the worst face
of government schools because I had a dull childhood where
imagination and play were replaced by playing a game to pad my
future resume.
This quote is too funny. Government schools really ought not to be
the only choice, if this sense of entitlement in the teachers,
combined with overall disinterest.
phalkor|4.21.09 @ 10:30AM|#
fucks, I love/hate getting distracted while commenting; turns into a omfg-ramble of blurgle-blargle.
|4.21.09 @ 10:31AM|#
Don't blame the government for a failing education
system.
If the government did not forcibly stick its greedy paws into my
pocket to fund its worthless "education" system, you might have a
point.
I have no children, but I am forced to subsidize a system which
churns out kids who can barely form a coherent sentence, much less
recognize what is a plainly false assertion by a public
official.
|4.21.09 @ 10:39AM|#
"My issue with that statement is it seems to discredit a lot of
the good things high school kids do as a ploy to "pad the resume".
I used to deride these overacheivers with my slacker friends, but
now think there is a twinge of jealousy. I suppose I wanted to be a
high-flier as well, just not as much. Kids don't have equal
encouragement, ambition, or aptitude. Neither do teachers."
Everything in moderation. Certainly, some work like that is good.
But, colleges have stopped looking at ability and look way too much
at bullshit. I really don't care if the kid was able to go feed
poor children in Panama. But colleges look at that kind of crap,
which in turn drives kids to more and more absurd levels of "public
service" to get into the top schools. Back in the day, someone like
Richard Feynman could grow up middle class tinkering with radios in
New York and go to MIT. These days he would have never gotten in. I
can't help but wonder how many geniuses are not getting into the
best schools because they don't have the perfect application and
didn't do enough bullshit community service.
|4.21.09 @ 10:59AM|#
"When our children grow up to be retarded, we will have no
one to blame but the teachers."----
No you have no one to blame but yourself.
Medic goes on to explain that she homeschools. Thereby bolstering
my point.
If you can't take the time to educate your child then you
should be on birth control or use a condom.
Um, this is pretty stupid. I shouldn't procreate because I would
prefer to outsource my childs education for various reasons:
specialization, socialization, economies of scale, both parents
having a career... The thing that really torques me off about
homeschool parents is their smug sense of self satisfaction that
they exhibit as they try and push their views onto everyone. Not
all of them are like this, but a lot are. Oh, and my sisters were
homeschooled.
I wasn't, as my proficiency in science and math exceeded either of
my parents ability to teach it by 10th grade.
|4.21.09 @ 11:01AM|#
Back in the day, someone like Richard Feynman could grow up
middle class tinkering with radios in New York and go to MIT. These
days he would have never gotten in. I can't help but wonder how
many geniuses are not getting into the best schools because they
don't have the perfect application and didn't do enough bullshit
community service.
I wouldn't worry, John, they don't stop being geniuses because they
don't get into MIT. Society may benefit more from their hardship
than from educating them expensively.
|4.21.09 @ 11:07AM|#
I can't help but wonder how many geniuses are not getting
into the best schools because they don't have the perfect
application and didn't do enough bullshit community
service.
I'm inclined to look at this as a, you know, *feature*.
[When I was at the University of Idaho, I had some extremely good
economics professors who actually came and taught their own classes
every day]
|4.21.09 @ 11:09AM|#
The U of I is a good school 'cept the stench in the Kibbie dome from those vandals the last few years.
New World Dan|4.21.09 @ 11:17AM|#
John,
The biggest key is to make sure you're comparing apples to apples.
Measure how the kids perform relative to their previous year's
class rank. Works very well in an elementary setting. In a high
school where you might have 1 teacher who teaches all of the
geometry classes, there might not be anything to compare her to.
But you maybe take a base ranking of her students coming in. It's
very possible to create a merit pay system that works, not that I
expect anyone to actually do so.
T|4.21.09 @ 11:20AM|#
Don't blame the government for a failing education
system.
Why the hell not? Who should I blame, the other organization that
sets the rules and runs most of the schools?
DADIODADDY|4.21.09 @ 11:34AM|#
We all have a very different idea of what an "Educated Person" really is, and what our expectation of the publically funded scholl system should be doing. I say let's blow it up and start from scratch and no fucking Ed majors allowed.
MNG|4.21.09 @ 11:36AM|#
When you contract for a job (I realize many of you peons don't
contract for a job, you just show up for an interview from the
paper and take what's given if they deign to give the job to you,
but imagine for a minute ;)) don't you try to get the terms that
are not the most cosmically just, but that are best for you? And
doesn't the employer have to give on some of these, even though
they are not the best for them perhaps?
Well, what the fuck is wrong when unions, or teacher unions, do
that as a group?
I told my boss on day one I wanted three weeks paid vacation in
addition to my paid sick time, or I would simply go to another
consulting firm. Surely it wasn't ideal for him to say yes, but he
wanted or needed me and I got it. I guess you could write an
article on how spoiled I am or something, but it's called
bargaining dudes. Or do you think only the employer's interest is
great? Or better yet, we should all agree to terms of employment
that "further the economic efficiency of society?" WTF?
MNG|4.21.09 @ 11:37AM|#
"Who should I blame"
How about this great non-gvoernmental organization called
"families."
|4.21.09 @ 11:42AM|#
The problem with school choice, as I see it, is that the
good parents will move their children to the better schools and the
Maury parents will not bother. You will end up with some amazingly
bad schools that will be shuttered due to NCLB. The correction of
the problem has to start in the home, not in school
choice.
Brotherben -
Mandatory parenting classes with random home inspections is clearly
the only way to solve this problem.
Has it ever occured to you that there exists some problems that
government can't solve, that in the name of freedom, shouldn't even
try?
|4.21.09 @ 11:45AM|#
Well, what the fuck is wrong when unions, or teacher unions,
do that as a group?
Nothing, if the taxpayers actually had a choice. Or if individual
parents had the choice to use their tax dollars at the school of
their choice instead of the monopoly school that the teachers
unions run.
If we were argueing about some other economic issue involving a
corporation with monopoly power using it's position to bully other
players, you'd be singing a different tune. Teachers unions benefit
from a monopoly system. I don't fault them for getting what they
can - I fault a broken system that makes it inevitable that the
taxpayer will get charged out the nose for crappy product. Now on a
personal level, I think teachers union smucks are despicable,
because of their smug sense of entitlement. They don't admit that
they are milking a broken system - they think they are the
righteous underpaid heroes. And most of them are very sub par.
|4.21.09 @ 11:50AM|#
How about this great non-gvoernmental organization called
"families."
Teachers LOVE to blame parents. It's hip to do. No one blames
teachers, because everyone has a favorite teacher that influenced
them yada yada... I know a lot of teachers, and most of them will
say the same thing privately: that there are stupid teachers who
dont try very hard. Lots of them. In Public Schools.
|4.21.09 @ 11:52AM|#
J sub D, I wasn't suggesting govt intervention in the home. I was saying, that in my opinion, the biggest reason for failure in the classroom is a failure of parenting in the home. With that being a large contributor to success or failure of a school and it's teachers, that school choice would have very negative effects in some areas.
hmm|4.21.09 @ 11:52AM|#
Any thing showing failure is an insult. She is right on the
money. Such pay would be an insult to many teachers. A long needed
and well deserved insult.
Teachers have a job. Parents have a duty. Two very different
things.
|4.21.09 @ 11:58AM|#
what the fuck is wrong when unions, or teacher unions, do
that as a group?
If the teachers' union was bargaining with an entity which was
actually dealing at arm's length, and spending its own
money, I would be significantly less concerned.
|4.21.09 @ 12:01PM|#
the biggest reason for failure in the classroom is a failure
of parenting in the home.
You forgot to blame the teevee!
And consumerism.
MNG|4.21.09 @ 12:04PM|#
"Nothing, if the taxpayers actually had a choice."
They do have a choice. They can elect people to bargain for
different contracts.
But under any system both bargainers would have to give and get.
How do you know this is not something that they would just get? Or
would we bitch about anything we have to give. I mean, do you know
that teachers don't have to work 12 hour days! My god, those spoilt
bastards, it must be a monopoly system or somethng that allows
governments to offer them contracts not requiring 12-14 hour
days.
I mean, c'mom.
"the biggest reason for failure in the classroom is a failure of
parenting in the home"
MNG|4.21.09 @ 12:04PM|#
the biggest reason for failure in the classroom is a failure of
parenting in the home
Who the fuck could possibly dispute this?
|4.21.09 @ 12:11PM|#
"They do have a choice. They can elect people to bargain
for different contracts move to Somalia."
Or colonize the moon.
Taktix®|4.21.09 @ 12:11PM|#
PETA is planning a march on Talladega this Nascar race
weekend. They are protesting a world record attempt for most people
in a chicken dance. In all fairness, the attempt is being sponsored
by KFC.
PETA vs. NASCAR fans?!?
Is this televised? Please, please tell me this is televised...
|4.21.09 @ 12:13PM|#
"How dare they think they can link rewards with performance in schools? Umm, wait...."
|4.21.09 @ 12:32PM|#
the biggest reason for failure in the classroom is a failure
of parenting in the home
Who the fuck could possibly dispute this?
It's a beautiful system these teachers have, they do a job that
makes them immune from criticism, paid by another unnaccountable
group from money extracted from a third group. When the results are
great, they take all the credit, and ask for pay increases, cuz hey
they are doing such a bang up job, right? But when things don't
work out, it's not t heir fault: they are underpaid, and anyway,
the parents are to blame. Yeah, pretty non-disputable
assertion...
|4.21.09 @ 12:34PM|#
I have no children, but I am forced to subsidize a system
which churns out kids who can barely form a coherent sentence, much
less recognize what is a plainly false assertion by a public
official.
Could that be because public education, like so many other public
institutions, is underfunded to the extent that its failure becomes
a self-fulfilling prophecy?
|4.21.09 @ 12:38PM|#
domo, so the teachers and the union are responsible for Harris and Klebold? It happened at school. Surely nothing else could have influenced their actions at school?
Boston|4.21.09 @ 12:41PM|#
"the biggest reason for failure in the classroom is a
failure of parenting in the home"
So I would be correct in assuming that you would be in favor of
taking away NCLB because it has little to nothing to do with
'parenting in the home.' Because it is be a vast misallocation of
resources?
|4.21.09 @ 12:46PM|#
Could that be because public education, like so many other
public institutions, is underfunded to the extent that its failure
becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy?
You might have a point except that private schools that cost half
as much get twice the results.
JB|4.21.09 @ 12:57PM|#
One thing though, please stop calling them "public" schools.
They are "government" schools.
That's a good point. reason should start that meme. Stupid teachers
at stupid government schools. No surprise since government
employees are stupid.
T|4.21.09 @ 12:57PM|#
Could that be because public education, like so many other
public institutions, is underfunded to the extent that its failure
becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy?
Nice try, but no. Look at the per pupil expenditures and tell me
we're not spending enough money. DC in particular spends the most
money for the least measurable results. It ain't a failure of
funding.
|4.21.09 @ 12:58PM|#
You might have a point except that private schools that cost
half as much get twice the results.
Even if you didn't pull this directly from your ass, what else
would you expect? Private schools don't have to serve everyone.
They can be selective and more individually-oriented.
Even so, the difference in performance is not so clear-cut. Our
country's students are outperformed worldwide regardless of whether
they attend public or private.
JB|4.21.09 @ 12:59PM|#
PETA is protesting people doing a chicken dance?!?!?!
What does it hurt the feelings of the chickens to see people doing
their dance?!
God, Obama is making everything more retarded...even the things
that couldn't get more retarded.
Matt Welch Makes Me Sleepy|4.21.09 @ 1:11PM|#
"I don't see how a bureaucrat or a manager can sort out who is a
good teacher and who isn't. Some really good ones could."
Really? Even as an eighth-grader I could tell who was a good
teacher and who wasn't. It's not that tough.
Art-P.O.G.|4.21.09 @ 1:14PM|#
Tony, even with your caveats, I'm not convinced funding is a major culprit in American public ed.
EscapedWestOfTheBigMuddy|4.21.09 @ 1:16PM|#
Could that be because public education, like so many other public institutions, is underfunded to the extent that its failure becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy?
Short answer: no.
http://www.heritage.org/research/Education/bg2179.cfm
|4.21.09 @ 1:17PM|#
Something tells me this person would not be one of the
teachers actually *receiving* merit pay.
What makes you think that, by the time the unions and their sock
puppets in school administration get done, every teacher won't be
getting merit pay?
I can see it now: "In America, every teacher is above average. Teh
Children deserve no less!"
|4.21.09 @ 1:19PM|#
God, Obama is making everything more retarded...even the
things that couldn't get more retarded.
It's like the Special Olympics or something.
Matt Welch Makes Me Sleepy|4.21.09 @ 1:21PM|#
"Those kids are not being taught how to think or take risks or
be creative or many of the skills that are necessary to be a truly
educated person."
Perhaps they are learning that from their high acheiving
parents.
|4.21.09 @ 1:32PM|#
Even if you didn't pull this directly from your
ass
Nope. my local district is one example, the rest of New Jersey is
another.
what else would you expect? Private schools don't have to serve
everyone. They can be selective and more
individually-oriented.
Wouldn't it be great if every student had access to individually
oriented instruction - sounds like I'm winning you over! Yeah, they
are selective, because in todays world, the private schools are
forced into a niche market (upper crust kids) in order to compete,
since their patrons have to have enough money to pay for school
twice (once through taxes, obvi). Remove the monopoly, and a
plethora of private institutions at different price points will
arise spontaneously. Refer thyself to the evidence the Obama
administration guiltily covered up on DC's voucher program.
Even so, the difference in performance is not so clear-cut. Our
country's students are outperformed worldwide regardless of whether
they attend public or private.
Hmm, ok, not sure this is a good metric. isn't the real question,
"Do public or private school students perform better compared to
the world"?
Gipper|4.21.09 @ 1:34PM|#
"I just wonder how long the current education system can
continue to fail. When did it start failing?"
When the Supreme Court forced bussing.
Not because of integration, but because it destroyed the concept of
neighborhood schools and their inherent sense of community.
When I was a kid, we all went to the neighborhood school (except
for a few Catholics and the like). Parents knew each other. Three
or four kids on the block might all be in the band, or choir, etc.
There was a real sense of community.
Now kids are bussed all over the city. In fact it's not very likely
that Timmy will be able to attend the same school as his best
friend next door, because there are lotteries that determine who
goes where.
So what we have in my city (majority non-white) spending
approximately one hundred million of dollars annually just to
shuffle around a bunch of children of color for the sake of an
antiquated notion of "integration". It's insane.
Gipper|4.21.09 @ 1:43PM|#
"You forgot to blame the teevee!
And consumerism."
And junk foods made with high fructose corn syrup.
Gipper|4.21.09 @ 1:45PM|#
"the biggest reason for failure in the classroom is a failure of
parenting in the home
Who the fuck could possibly dispute this?"
I work with at-risk kids; you are mistaken.
Gipper|4.21.09 @ 1:47PM|#
"Could that be because public education, like so many other
public institutions, is underfunded to the extent that its failure
becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy?"
Nope.
|4.21.09 @ 2:01PM|#
gipper, why are they considered "at-risk?"
What work do you do with these children?
highnumber|4.21.09 @ 2:04PM|#
It strikes me as pointless to get worked up about this
out-of-context quote. What if the context was that the teacher, due
for a raise anyway, was offered the opportunity for a huge raise if
he or she transferred into the poorest performing, most violent
school in all of Detroit, but the pay raise was to be entirely
merit based, determined by the students.
Is it too much to wait a couple of hours to hear the quote within
the context of the program before getting worked up about it?
Kolohe|4.21.09 @ 2:05PM|#
Back in the day, someone like Richard Feynman could grow up
middle class tinkering with radios in New York and go to MIT. These
days he would have never gotten in.
I'm going to call BS on this one. The 'system' is still very good
at finding and elevating geniuses, esp self directed ones like
Feynman. A guy with a 700+ math SAT score and evidence of a decent
work ethic even in a relatively crappy school system *will* get
into MIT.
The system is suboptimal for the median, and actively harms the
just below average. But either end of the bell curve are served
quite well.
perilisk|4.21.09 @ 2:09PM|#
"So what to do if you are a teacher and all your little charges
are incorrigible due to a complete lack of home trainin'? No, you
can't beat the little shitters. But they will certainly hurt your
performance."
You could always use relative merit pay. Or let parental demand for
a teacher within a school govern pay. Or something. All I know is
that parents alone are not to blame for educational problems --
I've had teachers that were probably, in retrospect, mildly
mentally retarded. Not to say I didn't have great teachers, mostly,
but it only takes one dumbass to cripple a borderline student's
chances.
Part of the problem, methinks, is that states react to a teacher
shortage not by increasing incentives, but by lowering their
standards for licensing teachers. And once those idiots get hired,
the union will stick by them until they get caught banging a
student, even after the shortage passes.
Raising teacher pay is not sufficient -- it needs to be much easier
to get rid of underperforming teachers on a year-to-year basis,
otherwise you're just overpaying jackasses. Raising standards is
actually the best place to start, because it's by far the harder
fight to win -- and if successful, it will almost certainly create
a shortage of teachers, which will provide support for improving
the incentives for those teachers that are qualified.
TallDave|4.21.09 @ 2:10PM|#
I think the guy in that Reason.TV segment said it best:
We don't build schools for the teachers. We build schools for the students.
Fire them all. Fuck their pension too.
TallDave|4.21.09 @ 2:28PM|#
Could that be because public education, like so many other
public institutions, is underfunded to the extent that its failure
becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy?
Ah, the motto of the government: "we just need more money! then we
can do our job to mimimal levels of comepetence!"
The D.C. public schools have the highest per-pupil spending rate in
the country. They have some of the lowest test scores.
The D.C. Catholic schools have some of the lowest per-pupil
spending rates in the country (1/3 of public rates). They have some
of the highest test scores.
And there's no self-selection here; D.C. Catholic schools are open
to anyone who can afford them, and have even asked for the public
schools' worst students.
Public education spending has tripled in 30 years. Do you know
where that money goes? Educrats and social agendas. Whether Johny
can read is of little importance to the NEA.
Gipper|4.21.09 @ 2:33PM|#
"gipper, why are they considered "at-risk?"
What work do you do with these children?"
Crackhead moms, sexually abusive step parents, etc.
What do I do? That has varried over the years. Everything from
volunteering to help with daycare at a public school for parenting
and pregnant teens, to street-based outreach to let kids know that
there are services they can access to better their situation (e.g.,
get off of the street, stop turning tricks, etc.).
But the point is that I have seen kids (hundreds) rise above
horrific family situations in order to graduate high school and go
on to college due to what was once known as intestinal fortitude.
So I don't fully buy into the whole "it's the parents thing".
But I have had incompetent teachers.
|4.21.09 @ 2:45PM|#
Lets not forget the kids are to blame too. I realize that this may seem a little heartless, and that many kids have crappy role models, etc. It hurts their chances, to be sure. That said, there has to be personal responsibility for their own education. As much as I'd like to blame the teachers unions entirely - the truth is some combination of incompetant teachers/shitbag parents/lazy kids. You folks can propose percentages if you are so inclined. But many kids don't WANT to learn - it's boring/stupid/pointless. They can be forgiven for making bad decisions as minors, which is what parents/teachers are for - but at some level, they have to do it for themselves.
Mike|4.21.09 @ 2:46PM|#
" "Back in the day, someone like Richard Feynman could grow up
middle class tinkering with radios in New York and go to MIT. These
days he would have never gotten in."
I'm going to call BS on this one. The 'system' is still very good
at finding and elevating geniuses, esp self directed ones like
Feynman. A guy with a 700+ math SAT score and evidence of a decent
work ethic even in a relatively crappy school system *will* get
into MIT." "
I call and raise your BS. I got a 780 on the math SAT, before the
90's renormalization, had a good work ethic, and didn't get into
MIT. One of the main reasons was my lack of sufficient
extracurriculars: i.e. BS community service. College admissions at
the top colleges are largely a matter of political correctness now.
Grades and test scores are mattering less and less.
|4.21.09 @ 2:51PM|#
College admissions at the top colleges are largely a matter
of political correctness now. Grades and test scores are mattering
less and less.
and it's correlary:
College admissions at the top colleges are largely a matter of
political correctness now. What college you went to is mattering
less and less.
Gipper|4.21.09 @ 2:55PM|#
"Lets not forget the kids are to blame too. I realize that this
may seem a little heartless, and that many kids have crappy role
models, etc. It hurts their chances, to be sure. That said, there
has to be personal responsibility for their own education."
Absolutely. I've never seen a gang banger graduate high school. But
I've seen a lot of ex-gang bangers do it. Kids at just about any
age have an inherent desire to be responsible. It doesn't take all
that much effort to tap into it.
|4.21.09 @ 3:11PM|#
Gipper,my point is simply that you are acting as a surrogate
parent, helping these kids to understand how their decisions affect
their future.
Domo, my suggestion was that parenting makes the biggest
difference. It isn't the sole reason for success or failure in
school.
Gipper|4.21.09 @ 3:14PM|#
"Gipper,my point is simply that you are acting as a surrogate
parent, helping these kids to understand how their decisions affect
their future."
And it's fun! Kids are a blast.
Gipper|4.21.09 @ 3:18PM|#
But I would add that I am NOT acting as a surrogate parent and that parenting is NOT what makes the biggest difference. That's a distortion on your part. I had great parents and was an horrific student. It all comes down to self-motivation on the part of the student.
|4.21.09 @ 3:24PM|#
Domo, my suggestion was that parenting makes the biggest
difference. It isn't the sole reason for success or failure in
school.
I am inclined to agree. My point is that when discussing the
miserable performance of public schools, teachers unions are quick
to take credit for success, and just as quick to push off blame for
failure onto parents. The apologists want to blame everyone but the
teachers: Money, parents, culture, rap music, anything. But these
other factors aren't the point. We can't change the structural
makeup of a given counties families, but we can change the
incentives given to schools, and the process by which an enormous
amount of money is wastefully spent. Pining over the many other
issues at play is a red herring when the discussion is "How can we
make education better today with the tax dollars we have" This is
precisely the question that local school boards are facing right
now. Everyone agrees that it would be better with more parent
involvement, but lack thereof is no excuse for the teachers not to
do their jobs well.
|4.21.09 @ 3:26PM|#
It all comes down to self-motivation on the part of the
student.
Eventually, it does. I do think it's the parent/teachers role to do
what they can.
|4.21.09 @ 3:49PM|#
domo, if you are a cook in a cafe and, say, 70% of the customers
walk in having made the decision that they won't like the food and
will send it back. Add to it that the 30% that look forward to your
cooking are continually harrassed and threatened by the other
diners. Now add in that you can't refuse service to anyone, and you
can't punish their behaviour. Now add in that 50% have no idea how
to use utensils and don't know the names for the food you
serve.
Can you be an effective cook?
Kolohe|4.21.09 @ 4:52PM|#
I call and raise your BS. I got a 780 on the math SAT, before the 90's renormalization, had a good work ethic, and didn't get into MIT. One of the main reasons was my lack of sufficient extracurriculars: i.e. BS community service. College admissions at the top colleges are largely a matter of political correctness now. Grades and test scores are mattering less and less.
I had 700+ (each section) SAT scores and a decent amount of
extracurriculars and got rejected from MIT. (got into Cornell
though) Wound up going to state U because even before the money
they gave me, it was hard to justify the cost of 1 year at cornell
being the same as all 4 years at Va Tech.)
Anyway, though I agree with some of your point, an actual genius
like Feynman (unlike people like us wanking on the intertubes) is
still fairly readily identified and pushed through the system.
|4.21.09 @ 4:53PM|#
Now add in that you can't refuse service to anyone, and you
can't punish their behaviour.
I think I'm right is suggesting that the above is at the core of
the difficulty. So the answer is NO - I cannot. But I think that
fact actually bolsters my view. Having private schools for unruly
kids that CAN punish (with parental consent). What it doesn't argue
for are the solutions proposed above (ever more money for
"massively underfunded schools" *choke*)
You are making many assumptions about what a free market can and
cannot provide. Do you think poor black parents of unruly kids
WOULDN'T choose to use a voucher to send their kid to a school that
specializes in troubled kids? Do you think that the (good) teachers
who already work with these kids in the public system, WOULDN'T
choose to do so for the same money in the private sector, if they
had less govt red tape tying their hands on what they can and can't
do?
Teh Other Side|4.21.09 @ 7:26PM|#
"I had 700+ (each section) SAT scores and a decent amount of
extracurriculars and got rejected from MIT."
MIT offered to fly me up for an interview because I listed my
ethnicity as "Native American". I got a 680 on the Math
section.
engineer|4.21.09 @ 7:30PM|#
"I had great parents and was an horrific student."
That does not, in itself, disprove bro.ben's point. If, for example
tests make up 60 of a student's grade, and he aces every test but
doesn't bother to do homework or quizzes, he will fail the course,
even though tests are the biggest part (indeed the majority). I
hope this analogy does not fail.
engineer|4.21.09 @ 7:31PM|#
[When I was at the University of Idaho, I had some extremely
good economics professors who actually came and taught their own
classes every day]
What? Your professors taught the classes? What weird-A alternate
universe are you from, buddy?
engineer|4.21.09 @ 7:35PM|#
"don't you try to get the terms that are not the most cosmically
just"
Define "cosmically just". I don't remember any commandment saying
"And if thou be an engineer, thou shalt not work for greater or
lesser pay than so-and-so..."
|4.21.09 @ 9:48PM|#
I heard the story on NPR, the teacher said that it was insulting because it implied that the teachers weren't doing their very best already. This is the danger of believing that the people of any profession are angels. She also ignores that some people's very best is not as good as other people's very best and that they should be replaced.
MJ|4.21.09 @ 9:53PM|#
"the biggest reason for failure in the classroom is a failure of
parenting in the home
Who the fuck could possibly dispute this?"
Teacher's unions, when they demand more tax money be thrown at the
public schools.
If parenting is the biggest problem, then increasing school funding
(or any other school reform) will do nothing to improve education
as the problem is beyond the scope of work of the government or the
schools.
|4.22.09 @ 1:17AM|#
I didn't get into MIT because the admissions deadline is
December 1st. And nobody in my school did their job and informed me
about that.
In fact, I did all my college research myself.
The high school guidance counsellors weren't worth shit.
Site comments/questions:
Media Inquiries and Reprint Permissions:
(310) 367-6109
Editorial & Production Offices:
3415 S. Sepulveda Blvd.
Suite 400
Los Angeles, CA 90034
(310) 391-2245