Further Down the Revolutionary Road

Michael C. Moynihan | March 5, 2009

After winning a vote to eliminate term limits, Hugo Chavez has decided to ramp up his Bolivarian revolution, despite a massive loss of government revenue due to falling oil prices and recent spike in inflation. This week he threatened the remaining independent media outlets in the country, ordering his deputies to create an enemies list of opposition journalists:

"Every mayor, in every city council must make an analysis. How many radio stations are there? What is the content of the programs? Every governor in his or her respective state must do the same analysis. Let us draw a map of the media war. With respect to the newspapers, how many newspapers are owned by the oligarchs in Aragua state, in the municipality of Zamora? There is also a media war on the Internet. There is a daily battle. I beg you to put at the forefront of this battle,"

After the media, it's those sinister industrial food producers Chavez wants to bring to heel, predictably blaming them for the widespread shortages of meat, rice, and milk that have plagued the Venezuela in recent years. The country's largest food producer, Empresas Polar, was briefly occupied by government forces this week and threatened with wholesale expropriation if it didn't lower prices on rice—just days after the government took over the American company Cargill for the same reasons. So why are these companies failing to produce? Because, as every economist outside of the Miraflores palace knows, price controls create shortage:

Chavez's clash with the food companies, demanding they produce cheaper rice, came less than three weeks after he won a referendum on allowing him to run for re-election and marked his first nationalization in seven months.

The move shows he is likely to continue his combative style as the OPEC nation, faced with tumbling oil revenues that form the backbone of its economy, slowly begins to feel the effects of the global economic crisis... [Chavez] accuses the food industry of skirting price controls and failing to produce enough cheap rice. The recent moves to tighten the government's grip over food supplies are criticized by the private sector and many economists who say it could contribute to food shortages.

Full story here.

Update: Maria Conchita Alonso, who starred with Sean Penn in the classic gang film Colors, sounds off on the Milk star's Oscar and his love affair with Hugo Chavez.

Comments

|3.5.09 @ 5:01PM|#

Chavez is going to be toast, soon. His hold on Venezuela isn't strong enough to avert his impending overthrow, which is going to happen as he keeps acting overtly tyrannical.

I wonder if he likes Obama? I mean, Bush was Satan, right?

mark|3.5.09 @ 5:01PM|#

Maybe we can put the old tiresome chestnut that 'Obama is a Socialist' to bed now? Chavez is real Socialism. and if you're going to lump Obama, who's probably to the right of any liberal from the 70's, with Chavez, You have no credibility to argue policy and are instead just throwing scare words.

I don't like a number of the Current Policies, but that doesn't mean I have to exaggerate and lie to debate and battle against them.

Paul|3.5.09 @ 5:03PM|#

widespread shortages of meat

I have it on good authority that these can be fixed through a strengthening of the regulatory regime.

|3.5.09 @ 5:05PM|#

I'm not sure that Obama is to the right of 70s Democrats. Besides, it's not a question of whether he's a socialist, it's whether he (and Congress, more importantly) are adding socialist programs and regulatory frameworks to our system. They most certainly are. Of course, the same could be said, to a lesser extent, of Bush and the GOP Congress.

Chavez is a dictator. The people there have begun to see that, and they will revolt.

ed|3.5.09 @ 5:08PM|#

"I beg you to put at the forefront of this battle..."

It's so adorable when a dictator begs.

|3.5.09 @ 5:09PM|#

Chavez is a dictator. The people there have begun to see that, and they will revolt.

I'd like to think so, but I doubt they will succeed.

|3.5.09 @ 5:09PM|#

I hate to say this, I really do.

Venezuela's best hope is a military coup.

ed|3.5.09 @ 5:13PM|#

price controls create shortage

Except in healthcare. Right, Barrack?

Paul|3.5.09 @ 5:17PM|#

I hate to admit it, but there were certain moments where some of our more reliable liberal commenters had almost convinced me that maybe we weren't giving Chavez a chance, and were being overly critical... and maybe, just maybe he was relatively democratic(tm) in his leadership.

Stuff like this just cements the fact that given enough rope, this guy's just another 3rd world thug convinced of his own righteousness.

My prediction is that now that Obama is president, Chavez' regime will unravel because he's going to have a much harder time convincing the world that Obama is the source of all his problems.

Kolohe|3.5.09 @ 5:20PM|#

I hate to say this, I really do.

Venezuela's best hope is a military coup.

Venezuela's best hope is that 1) enough people will be fed up by economic malaise in 2012 and 2) govt incompetence won't be able to buy off enough of the electorate and/or rig the election effectively, so that even with no term limits, Chavez departs peacefully Ortega style.

It's a variation on the 'I hope he fails' philosophy, but it works better in this case because it's *vitally* important to maintain a constructive apathy toward Chavez, lest he uses longstanding & widespread background grudges against the yanquis to strenghten his hand.

ed|3.5.09 @ 5:23PM|#

[S]ome of our more reliable liberal commenters...

...have jumped ship. It's hard to be so wrong on the World Wide Blog O'Sphere.

mark|3.5.09 @ 5:30PM|#

Chavez is a dictator. The people there have begun to see that, and they will revolt.

I wish, but I'm not optimistic that they'd win (echoing R C Dean). Chavez is more than willing to kill a few million to stay in power.

As far as if Obama is to the right of 70's Liberals, I look at Obama as being to the right on Abortion, on Gun Control, Use of Military force (though really, he was handed that one), as well as a distinct desire NOT to nationalize the banks. What I do remember of the 70's was a very distinct disdain for corporations, which I notice is distinctly absent (all cracks about 'punishing bank heads aside' They are allowed to give the money back if they don't need it, in fact one bank did that today). So, it could go either way, but that's how I remember things back then.

Warty|3.5.09 @ 5:32PM|#

I didn't really miss joe until now. Will someone please step up and write a bunch of stupid bullshit about how Chavez isn't a caudillo because he was democratically elected?

|3.5.09 @ 5:34PM|#

widespread shortages of meat

The meat ration was increased; I heard the announcement.

mark|3.5.09 @ 5:36PM|#

Ok, she's from Venezuela, I suppose if nothing else that gives her a little cred to smack Sean Penn around but in general, why do I care what the frak some movie star says about some other movie star? Besides wasting bandwidth and a cheap shot at Sean Penn, is there a real point?

Then again, it is a cheap shot at Sean Penn, I suppose an exception could be made, but the principle stands.

|3.5.09 @ 5:37PM|#

Chavez is a dictator. The people there have begun to see that, and they will revolt.

Maybe, maybe not. There was a time when the people of Cuba overthrew a dictator and only got themselves a worse one.

-jcr

|3.5.09 @ 5:38PM|#

If they hate Chavez enough, why not opt for the anti-Chavez? That's right, George W. Bush, next president of Venezuela!

|3.5.09 @ 5:44PM|#

what happened to Joe?

Paul|3.5.09 @ 5:46PM|#

...have jumped ship. It's hard to be so wrong on the World Wide Blog O'Sphere.

I know, and and I had a feeling we'd see some paradigm shifts around here after Obama was elected. Much easier to defend Obama the candidate than Obama the President.

Playing defense sucks. Luckily, us libertarians don't really have anyone in government representing us so... for now we're safe.

creech|3.5.09 @ 5:47PM|#

Chavez' best hope is that oil goes back to $75.

Uncle Joe|3.5.09 @ 5:48PM|#

Everyone knows there were no food shortages in the glorious workers' paradise that I built in the Soviet Union! Kill a couple million peasants and there's enough to go around! Long live the revolution!

Paul|3.5.09 @ 5:48PM|#

Besides wasting bandwidth and a cheap shot at Sean Penn, is there a real point?

Someone truly close to the issue is opening up some whoop-ass on someone very far from the issue.

It's really just a math problem.

robc|3.5.09 @ 5:48PM|#

meerdahl,

To put it more bluntly than he did, he was okay with us bashing Bush, but now that we are bashing Obama in the same way, he cant stand us and left.

That isnt remotely what he said, but I interpreted.

|3.5.09 @ 5:52PM|#

From October 31, 2007.

My opinion hasn't changed one stinking bit.

|3.5.09 @ 5:53PM|#

I'd pay $50 to watch Maria Conchita Alonso kick Sean Penn's ass on pay-per-view.

Don King? Are you listening? Set it up, baby!

-jcr

|3.5.09 @ 5:55PM|#

Viva Chavez! Viva Le Revolution!

I hope he stays in power, as an example of the economic disaster that is socialism, and the total fucking retardedness of his progressive Western supporters.

People can then tour Venezuela as they do Cuba: as a kind of living museum of socialist stupidity and leftist hypocrisy.

|3.5.09 @ 5:56PM|#

I know, and and I had a feeling we'd see some paradigm shifts around here after Obama was elected. Much easier to defend Obama the candidate than Obama the President.

Playing defense sucks. Luckily, us libertarians don't really have anyone in government representing us so... for now we're safe.

QFT. H&R commenters are equal opportunity maligners. We wouldn't even cut Ron Paul some slack.

|3.5.09 @ 5:57PM|#

I have to confess something. I wanted Chavez to fail! Forgive me! [Runs off crying like a little girl.]

Paul|3.5.09 @ 5:59PM|#

what happened to Joe?

See my previous comment. Defending Obama sucks.

By the way I'm breaking my own personal rule about talking about joe when he's not in the conversation, but since he's gone (or at least lurking) I'll make an exception.

Joe got really, really defensive, especially during the period when Obama was making his cabinet picks. Uncharacteristically sensitive.

My own run-in (minor) with joe was about some of the tax problems his staff were having. Joe made some comment about how clearly these weren't malicious tax-dodgers, they were merely people who had made honest mistakes. He asked if we really believed there was any "intent" on the part of these Obama staff picks.

I responded in all earnestness, no snark intended, that I felt there was probably no more or less intent on the part of the Obama picks than say, Joe the Plummer. I wasn't invoking Joe the Plummer as a hero, or as an icon to be admired, I merely saw a connection between the political uprooting of skeletons in the closet of public persons vis. tax issues.

My comment was honestly put forward to raise the question about how we pick on or don't pick on people in relation to whether their 'our guy' or not.

Joe went off and told me to 'get off joe the plummer' or some such thing, as if I was invoking him as some kind of personal icon... in a "what would Jesus do" kind of way-- as far as I could tell. I knew then that his skin was gettin' a-mighty thin as he was wearing himself out playing defense for Obama.

And I mean, in all fairness to joe, imagine what it would be like if [insert favorite libertarian icon here] were ever elected to the President. Now all of your BS ideas are being put to the test and are up for scrutiny and attack. It's understandable that one might become...defensive.

|3.5.09 @ 6:00PM|#

I have to confess something. I wanted Chavez to fail!

Not me. I wanted him to get kicked out of power before he failed.

Now that he has failed, I want him to stick in the craw of every fucking idiot progressive who went around praising the socialist revolution in Venezuela for the last 10 years.

|3.5.09 @ 6:02PM|#

when was joe's exit? dammit! i actually try to get some work done for a while, and i miss a major turning point in the soap opera...

|3.5.09 @ 6:02PM|#

Pro Lib wins the thread. Well done. Here's a tissue.

-jcr

MNG|3.5.09 @ 6:03PM|#

"were certain moments where some of our more reliable liberal commenters had almost convinced me that maybe we weren't giving Chavez a chance, and were being overly critical... and maybe, just maybe he was relatively democratic(tm) in his leadership."

Who are the liberal commentators with love for Chavez? I can remember joe and me and others often having debates with folks that what's going on in Venezula is not the worst thing in the world, not as bad as some on the right make it out to be, that it's focused on because of Chavez's socialist rhetoric and his anti-U.S. statements, but I've always said that he was a very stupid and bad man who will violate the rule of law in his nation as far as he is allowed. I've certainly seen joe denounce him as well, he just argues that we should have faith in the democratic system in Venezula to eventually throw the rascal out...

|3.5.09 @ 6:04PM|#

Joe made some comment about how clearly these weren't malicious tax-dodgers,

Well, I'd give him that. There's no such thing as a "malicious" tax-dodger, since they're only trying to keep their own money.

-jcr

|3.5.09 @ 6:04PM|#

I know my mistake with Chavez. I didn't have enough faith in him. I won't make that mistake again!

|3.5.09 @ 6:06PM|#

"Besides wasting bandwidth and a cheap shot at Sean Penn"


I've never sat down and done the calculations but I'd say at least 60-75% of my bandwidth has been devoted to mocking lefties

|3.5.09 @ 6:06PM|#

Since I forgot to mention it, Maria Conchita Alonso is one of the most beautiful women who's ever lived, and there's nothing more attractive than a beautiful woman telling a pinko dipshit to STFU.

-jcr

Mr. Tu Quoque|3.5.09 @ 6:07PM|#

And in the United States there is talk of brinnning back the "Fairness Doctrine" in some for. We must shut up people who threaten the political future of our Dear Leader.

MNG|3.5.09 @ 6:07PM|#

I mean, here is one way to know that Venezula is, compared to many, many other nations, not so bad.

This story is about Chavez wanting to make a list of all the opposition media outlets in the nation, to I guess act against them in some way.

In many countries that list would be a blank sheet of paper.

|3.5.09 @ 6:07PM|#

Joe got really, really defensive, especially during the period when Obama was making his cabinet picks

Shit! You mean he was Joe BIDEN!??!

Mr. Tu Quoque|3.5.09 @ 6:08PM|#

"in some for" add an M. It should be "in some form"

|3.5.09 @ 6:09PM|#

Who are the liberal commentators with love for Chavez?

Shhh MNG -- you are interrupting the two minutes hate

MNG|3.5.09 @ 6:09PM|#

As Latino beauties go, she's great, but no Selma Hayek...

MNG|3.5.09 @ 6:10PM|#

Tom, I guess I'm not yelling loud enough at his image...Shit, give me a book to hurl at it!

MNG|3.5.09 @ 6:11PM|#

I mean, I'd rather live in Venezula than, say, Egypt, any day...

But there is not all this Egypt hate on the right...

MR. Tu Quoque|3.5.09 @ 6:12PM|#

Mr. Nice Guy, give Chavez more power and it may indeed be a blank sheet of paper. I agree that Venezula is not as bad as, for example, North Korea or Cuba but - the fear is that it might be if Chavez gets his way. This is a Frog in a Pot revolution - kind of like ours here - the BUsh-Obama regime is trying to pull the same sort of thing here but much more subtly. Remember: War is the health of the state.

|3.5.09 @ 6:12PM|#

I will admit to wanting Chavez to fail, but feel pretty crappy about it, as it will doom millions of Venezuelans to abject poverty. The problem with pointing out the failures of a political ideology to its most ardent supporters is that they won't ever admit defeat. They will always cite some conspiracy theory or other such nonsense.

I have had arguments with people about socialism being a failed system and point out the collapse of the Soviet Union and other Eastern Bloc countries, but lefties try and dodge the inconvenient question. Just as laughable is the attack on "neo-liberal" economic policy by our own Prime Minister, Kevin Rudd, in an essay in the Monthly (a literary magazine here in OZ). I could go on and on about that, but I think I'd be preaching to the choir.

Paul|3.5.09 @ 6:13PM|#

Come on MNG, I can't speak for you, but there were many a thread where joe repeatedly defended Chavez for being a democratic ray of light. No matter how hard we tried to convince him if George W. Bush had done anything remotely like the things that Chavez were doing, the media would be having apoplectic fits and the vapors. But he kept digging in, finding any shred of evidence where he backed off from opposition-- anything he could find as evidence that he wasn't a dictator, but just a kindly leader who had no designs for power, but only the health of his nation.

Of course we'd agree that Venezuela isn't the worst. But part of the criticism by the media is to shine a light on things before they become the worst.

But there is not all this Egypt hate on the right...

There isn't? I guess I hadn't paid attention. Why would "the right" have an affinity for Egypt?

SIV|3.5.09 @ 6:14PM|#

ordering his deputies to create an enemies list of opposition journalists

Cramer, Santelli,LIMBAUGH!

Oh wait, that is Obama's enemy list.

|3.5.09 @ 6:14PM|#

I actually got a small cult following on the south american social networking group Hi5

www.hi5.com/

pretending to be a radical chavista

It was awsome fun

you say demagogic shit like

"the people must control the means of production" etc

drop in a few

"viva la revoluçions"

then slowly start adding more and more genocidal shit and see how long people follow it

i was posting some fucking offensive dirty shit and was getting loads of

"yeah comrades etc"

What shocked me the most was just how well respected mass murderers like Mao and Stalin are still

|3.5.09 @ 6:15PM|#

You know, I was just thinking something. The right had their "good" dictators during the Cold War, as did the left. I can't think of any of the right has like that today, at least, not any that aren't just tolerated/ignored by the U.S. in general, anyway.

I don't think that means very much, just a thought.

Paul|3.5.09 @ 6:15PM|#

I will admit to wanting Chavez to fail, but feel pretty crappy about it, as it will doom millions of Venezuelans to abject poverty.

Not necessarily. Chavez failing might doom millions of Venezuelans to freedom and economic health and wealth. Because, you know, if he "succeeds", they'll be doomed to price controls and opposition crackdowns.

|3.5.09 @ 6:16PM|#

Who are the liberal commentators with love for Chavez?

www.newstatesman.com/

one of my favorite places to post :)

Paul|3.5.09 @ 6:17PM|#

I can't think of any of the right has like that today, at least, not any that aren't just tolerated/ignored by the U.S. in general, anyway.

I don't think that means very much, just a thought.

I kind of agree. I mean all through the Reagan administration there seemed to be dozens of unsavory relationships that the right fostered for the cause. But that ship seems to have largely failed. Maybe that says something of the impotence of the GOP?

|3.5.09 @ 6:18PM|#

"ordering his deputies to create an enemies list of opposition journalists"

Republicans have never ever done anything that might seem like an attempt to possibly control the media.

Paul|3.5.09 @ 6:20PM|#

have largely failed.

What's the rule about typos meaning something more than intended?

Anyhoo, should have been "ship seems to have largely sailed."

Mr. Tu Quoque|3.5.09 @ 6:20PM|#

"You know, I was just thinking something. The right had their "good" dictators during the Cold War, as did the left. I can't think of any of the right has like that today, at least, not any that aren't just tolerated/ignored by the U.S. in general, anyway."

I used to be part of the "right" - now I am an anti-war anarcho-capitalist. At the time it was sort of an "enemy-of-my-enemy-is-my-friend" type of thing. We found out what that gets us on 9/11. Of course not all of the lessons of 9/11 have sunk in with a lot of conservatives (whatever conservative means anymore) but that lesson I think has sunk in with a lot of people. Notice how most rank and file conservatives do not think Saudi Arabia is an ally even though its leader (literally and figuratively) kisses George W,. Bush.

|3.5.09 @ 6:22PM|#

I mean, I'd rather live in Venezula than, say, Egypt, any day...

But there is not all this Egypt hate on the right...

This plalce is hardly right wing, it's libertaian. Speaking for myself, I'm not even in the left/right spectrum. Nowhere along that line is there a point for me.

People here comment, criticize and mourn a nation descending into tyranny and poverty more than one that has known it for decades. You don't see a lot of discussion about Bangladesh here either.

You do see quite a bit about that asshole Putin.

|3.5.09 @ 6:23PM|#

When a leftist regime or liberal party government president suffers setbacks or failure we hear, "socialism is destined for failure. The devil is a pinko."
When a set of right wing policies lead to failure, we hear, " the impotence of the GOP or that bush was a moron."

Why can't we just say that conservatism is not a viable governmental system?

Mr. Tu Quoque|3.5.09 @ 6:27PM|#

Brotherben, what do you define as "conservative"

|3.5.09 @ 6:30PM|#

"You know, I was just thinking something. The right had their "good" dictators during the Cold War, as did the left. I can't think of any of the right has like that today, at least, not any that aren't just tolerated/ignored by the U.S. in general, anyway."

all depends on your definition of right and left

Its a DUMB CONCEPT

taking a purely technical approach to the expression were

LEFT means government control of the economy

and RIGHT means less government control of the economy

NATO didn't actually support any RIGHT wing dictatorships during the cold war

If by RIGHT you mean authoritarian religious

as opposed to authoriatarian Marx worshippers

the yeah they did


Its damn hard to actually run a right wing dictatorship

because to be a dictatorship government needs money

and the right by definition (at least economically) is opposed to government spending money

|3.5.09 @ 6:32PM|#

"You don't see a lot of discussion about Bangladesh here either."

I like to think that i do contribute a disproportionate amount of comments about the sub-continent :)

|3.5.09 @ 6:35PM|#

Brotherben, what do you define as "conservative"

I'd say opposed to change

conserving the political order


Sometimes conservatism is good

as in 1000 years of habeaus corpus

would be a shame to waste!

So if you support guantanamo bay you're not very conservative

Paul|3.5.09 @ 6:37PM|#

Who are the liberal commentators with love for Chavez?

Sean Penn.

God I can't believe I missed that opportunity.

Cabeza De Vaca|3.5.09 @ 6:42PM|#

"But there is not all this Egypt hate on the right..."

That's because we bribe them with foreign aid to be nice to us & Israel.

MNG|3.5.09 @ 6:43PM|#

"but there were many a thread where joe repeatedly defended Chavez for being a democratic ray of light"

I really don't remember that, and I was on some of the heated ones with joe. Joe repeatedly said on those threads that he placed his faith in democracy and the people of Venezula, not Chavez...Maybe I missed some pertinent ones...

"I can't think of any of the right has like that today, at least, not any that aren't just tolerated/ignored by the U.S. in general, anyway."

Did you miss Michael Moore's movie on how the Bushies coddled the monarchs in Saudia Arabia?

And if you're a Palestinian then Olmert is your dictator, and the Right won't tolerate any criticism of Israel.

|3.5.09 @ 6:43PM|#

"Brotherben, what do you define as "conservative""

Therein lies the rub. We have been told that for the last 8 years we were led by the conservative repubs. Ummm, they weren't. But many folks still call them by that name.
My definition is irrelevant. I was simply pointing out the fact that we are biased in our assessment of differing govt types.

MNG|3.5.09 @ 6:47PM|#

So the focus is on Venezula because it's once free society is now seen as slipping away, while Egypt has not been free for a long time?

Hmm, that makes some sense to me. Good point.

But I would still bet money that a lot on the right hate Chavez so much mostly because he explicitly insults the U.S. and Bush and he has all the socialism talk...

|3.5.09 @ 6:49PM|#

Democracy, like other liberal (old school liberal) ideas, requires protections within the system. A dictator at the top protects neither democracy nor liberty. Surely at this stage, no one expects Chavez to be quietly elected out of office.

As for the rest of the unfree world, well, most of it spends more time oppressing their people and worrying less about the U.S. This isn't some vague, unrelated country, after all. We're neighbors. And, of course, there's the frustration that we're funding this guy's misbehavior and can't stop, man.

MNg|3.5.09 @ 6:50PM|#

"I can't think of any of the right has like that today"

You might have a point there, and it could be because of the neo-cons focus on not supporting any non-democracy, which perhaps has permeated the right. Hey, they sucked but maybe they had a good effect there.

Warty|3.5.09 @ 6:51PM|#

The focus is on Venezuela because obnoxious dickbags like Sean Penn loudly support Chavez. You don't have that with Egypt.

MNG|3.5.09 @ 6:52PM|#

The Right used to be motivated on foriegn policy by an "any means necessary beat the USSR" mindset.

Now that this is gone it's pretty much motivated by a mindset to
1. Defend Israel
2. Push U.S. interests
3. Defeat Islamic Radicalism
4. Don't forget number one (Defend Israel)
5. Did we mention defend Israel?

|3.5.09 @ 6:53PM|#

MNG,

I'm not sure what to attribute it to. The Cold War made us much more realpolitik in outlook, and we moved away from that after it ended.

MNG|3.5.09 @ 6:54PM|#

Uhh, the focus is on Venezula because Sean Penn likes it?

WTF?

I mean, really, I don't understand this type of thinking, unless it's like this:

1. I hate things stupid liberals like Sean Penn likes
2. Sean Penn likes Chavez
3. Therefore I hate Chavez!

|3.5.09 @ 6:54PM|#

"So the focus is on Venezula because it's once free society is now seen as slipping away,"

Its gotta be said that Chavez is only Chavez because it was never that free

Chavez is a cock but he only got to power because the people there before him absolutely betrayed the Venezuelan people

Chavez sucks balls but for the average Venezuelan shit won't change

The old regime didn't talk about the working classes and they stayed poor

Chaves talks about the working classes

they'll stay poor and the old middle class will join them

|3.5.09 @ 6:56PM|#

The Right used to be motivated on foriegn policy by an "any means necessary beat the USSR" mindset.

Now that this is gone it's pretty much motivated by a mindset to
1. Defend Israel
2. Push U.S. interests
3. Defeat Islamic Radicalism
4. Don't forget number one (Defend Israel)
5. Did we mention defend Israel?

MNG|3.5.09 @ 6:56PM|#

Pro L
You might say we think we can "afford" to not engage in Realpolitik...

But the days of the Right in love with folks like Marcos, Baby Doc, and S. Africa do seem to be gone...

Again, that was a great point you mentioned...

|3.5.09 @ 6:56PM|#

Bullshit

|3.5.09 @ 6:56PM|#

I don't get the whole Middle East Intervention Syndrome in the first place. It isn't about our oil and hasn't been for decades. Maybe it's a religious thing? Or maybe it's just political inertia?

MNG,

I think the point was that some people on the fringes publicly cozy up to some celebrity dictators, like Chavez and Castro. That annoys me, certainly, though I'm not sure it elevates the importance of their countries. Neither one particularly bothers me except to the extent that I feel sorry for the people living under their regimes.

|3.5.09 @ 6:57PM|#

US policy is just to defend the US

always has been always will be

Paul|3.5.09 @ 6:57PM|#

Joe repeatedly said on those threads that he placed his faith in democracy and the people of Venezula, not Chavez...Maybe I missed some pertinent ones...

Yes, joe did make that overall point, but joe kept stressing that Chaves would pedantically follow the will of said Venezuelan democracy. That point he made dozens of times. I seem to remember threads where I asked him straight out that if he changed the rules of Venezuelan Democracy by executive fiat, would that still be Venezuelan Democracy?

Or at least I thought it in my mind.

But I would still bet money that a lot on the right hate Chavez so much mostly because he explicitly insults the U.S. and Bush and he has all the socialism talk...

Of course they do. Bush was Chavez' whipping boy, Chavez was the Bushian whipping boy. I still ask about Chavez: Who does Chavez whip now that Obama is president?

Did you miss Michael Moore's movie on how the Bushies coddled the monarchs in Saudia Arabia?

True. But it came from Michael Moore, so I began to question if Bush was even the president.

Paul|3.5.09 @ 6:58PM|#

Uhh, the focus is on Venezula because Sean Penn likes it?

Come on, MNG, laugh a little. Friday's comin'. And given that we're all posting here, means we still have jobs. That's something to smile about, right?

MNg|3.5.09 @ 6:59PM|#

And, as one of the House Liberals (who has moved up significantly in rank due to joe's departure thank you very much, we're kind of like the public defender's office here at H&R), can I also point out that Sean Penn is not so much a "liberal commentator" as he is a dipshit actor.

MNG|3.5.09 @ 7:00PM|#

"Come on, MNG, laugh a little"

"But it came from Michael Moore, so I began to question if Bush was even the president."

Ok, that was good, lol...

Warty|3.5.09 @ 7:02PM|#

Uhh, the focus is on Venezula because Sean Penn likes it?

He uses his celebrity to defend Chavez, and that motivates people to try to set the record straight. What is hard to understand here? I guarantee you'd see a lot more posts attacking Alexander Lukashenko if celebrity leftists started telling us how great Belarus is.


Off-topic: I dig MaterialMonkeee's poetry.

Paul|3.5.09 @ 7:04PM|#

Ok, that was good, lol...

Thank you, I'm here all week.

MNG|3.5.09 @ 7:04PM|#

"US policy is just to defend the US"

I dunno about that. I really think our bending over backwards (or is it forwards?) for Israel is some wacky unprecedented stuff in that it obviously hurts us and yet we keep on doing it with little obvious benefit.

I mean, remember the whole OPEC mess in the 70's and how crappy things were for a while? Remember that entire thing was over our "out of sorts" (compared to the rest of the world) support for Israel.

And about 70% of the U.S. hate that folks like Al Qaeda stoke is related to our support for Israel.

I can't think of other historical examples where a big powerful nation devoted itself to defending a small insignificant one in a fashion which harmed its interests so much...

Maybe the awe with which Rome held Greek culture (but then I don't think their actual policies aided Greece to Rome's benefit)?

|3.5.09 @ 7:06PM|#

Off-topic: I dig MaterialMonkeee's poetry.

I'm a poet and i was completely unaware of the fact

MNG|3.5.09 @ 7:06PM|#

"I think the point was that some people on the fringes publicly cozy up to some celebrity dictators, like Chavez and Castro"

Well, I guess I can see Warty's point that Penn is not on the fringes in the sense that he just won his second Oscar...

But I think few people take Hollywood seriously on matters political, and most folks figure they are a little "off" about such things...

|3.5.09 @ 7:11PM|#

"And about 70% of the U.S. hate that folks like Al Qaeda stoke is related to our support for Israel."


dull dull dull


man i hate retards

for an in depth analysis of the inconsistency in the relation between the anti-Israeli lobby and Al queda please read this

from the ever intelligent British Marxist website Spiked Online

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?
/site/article/3812/

MNG|3.5.09 @ 7:12PM|#

I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm not some "Israel Lobby" conspiracy nut...These kind of things sort of happen...Look at how Russia often does things that are not exactly the most obvious thing from the POV of their own naked interests in order to go to bat for their cultural allies like Serbia...And I think you can easily say Israel is a cultural ally of the U.S.

But does anybody think Russia would suffer something like the OPEC embargo and its effects for their support for Serbia and not just change their position? I surely don't...

MNG|3.5.09 @ 7:15PM|#

MaterialMonkee

Too lazy to go to the site, can you paraphrase?

Do you seriously think our support for Israel has nothing to do with Arab and Muslim hate for us?

It's just simple human nature. The Arabs/Muslims hate Israel. We provide more support for Israel than any nation in the world. The Arabs/Muslims hate us.

What do you think is going on there?

|3.5.09 @ 7:16PM|#

"Well, I guess I can see Warty's point that Penn is not on the fringes in the sense that he just won his second Oscar"

Milk rocked
I have to say I'm pretty liberal
There was far to much gayness in that film for my liking
but I suppose it just would have been too Hollywood to replace

Harvey Milk with

Harviette Milk The lesbian doninatrix struggling for lesbian dommes rights!

But anyway

I enjoyed the film

He seemed like a libertarian to me

small businesses (capitalism), civil liberties

Its just a shame he wasn't a lesbian dominatrix then the film would have been better

|3.5.09 @ 7:18PM|#

I actually got a small cult following on the south american social networking group Hi5

www.hi5.com/

pretending to be a radical chavista

It was awsome fun

you say demagogic shit like

"the people must control the means of production" etc

drop in a few

"viva la revoluçions"

then slowly start adding more and more genocidal shit and see how long people follow it


This sounds like fantastic fun. I'm going to have to try it.

The trick is going to be playing it 'straight man', and not giving away any hints that you're faking. You can't do it like a Lefiti spoofer and give away any clues that you're doing a parody.

|3.5.09 @ 7:19PM|#

Does the U.S. have a bigger customer for military doo-dads than Israel? Could it be just the economic benefit with some strategic good and political gains thrown in? It does keep the Jews and the christians happy in the U.S. protecting the Holy Land and stuff.

Paul|3.5.09 @ 7:21PM|#

Well, I guess I can see Warty's point that Penn is not on the fringes in the sense that he just won his second Oscar...

Isn't that the complaint with the Oscars... it's all the fringe shit that gets nominated?

|3.5.09 @ 7:23PM|#

Are you suggesting that "Milk" was on the shitty fringe?

MNG|3.5.09 @ 7:24PM|#

brotherben
How much military stuff do we sell Israel a year? I'm not being sarcastic, I don't know. I know we give them 3 billion straight up a year, and there are some other ways in which we contribute...

Also, we'd have to factor in how much dealing with all the Israel hate we have to face costs us...

I'm betting the latter point is more important...Ironic thing is, many of the Christians in the Holy Land complain of their treatment from Israel...But that doesn't stop the average Christian over here from loving everything Israel does!

|3.5.09 @ 7:24PM|#

Too lazy to go to the site, can you paraphrase?

well the article higlights all of bin ladens messages from the early ninties up to about 2007

initially he was more concerned about Saudi Arabia not being Islamic enough and surprisingly

about America not being Imperialistic enough and getting involved in the Bosnia conflict

It shows how generally how Al Queada shaped its messages more to coalesce with anti-americanism and the anti-Israel lobby
after 9/11

Its an interesting article, well worth reading

Dudar de Thomas|3.5.09 @ 7:25PM|#

"Maybe we can put the old tiresome chestnut that 'Obama is a Socialist' to bed now? Chavez is real Socialism. and if you're going to lump Obama, who's probably to the right of any liberal from the 70's, with Chavez, You have no credibility to argue policy and are instead just throwing scare words."

You need to make a better effort towards convincing me.

There's a school of thought that the Obama administration is deliberately damaging the economy and gutting the stock market, on the theory that doing so will make more people dependent on the government and pave the way for a far-left regime. Doug Ross makes the argument:

Consider that, in the teeth of a devastating recession, Obama has:

• Raised taxes on small businesses, the engines of entrepreneurship and job growth

• Raised the capital gains tax

• Lied about "tax cuts for 95% of Americans", offering instead $13 a week, achieved not through tax cuts, but by changing the federal withholding tables!

• Destroyed charitable giving by axing the tax breaks for 26% of all giving (or $81 billion in 2006)

• Proposed a carbon cap-and-trading scheme designed to punish oil companies and further tax consumers

Why would Obama inflict these destructive policies while the economy is collapsing? Simple. Each step strengthens the role of government in people's lives.

• Squelching the stock market kills its attractiveness as a parking lot for private capital. Combined with an increase in the capital gains tax, investors will swarm to bonds -- tax-free vehicles like municipal bonds, which benefit the growth of state and local government. And unions, of course.

• Carbon cap-and-tax will raise taxes on all Americans as the cost of goods and services will increase to address a non-existent threat.

• True tax cuts would grow the economy, which is why, of course, Obama shuns them. The last major recession was Jimmy Carter's malaise. It consisted of of double-digit inflation and unemployment. It was finally licked by across-the-board tax cuts for everyone (even the despised rich), which touched off a twenty-plus year run of prosperity.

• Charities reduce the role of government assistance for those in need. That, in Obama's world, can not be tolerated. That is why charities must be choked off and allowed to die. Especially faith-based institutions.

The only plausible explanation is that Obama's destruction of the economy is intentional.

It is based on a failed ideology that has never -- and can never -- succeed.

Paul|3.5.09 @ 7:26PM|#

It's just simple human nature. The Arabs/Muslims hate Israel. We provide more support for Israel than any nation in the world. The Arabs/Muslims hate us.

What do you think is going on there?

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, mng that you don't believe that ALL of the hate the Islamic world has for us is due to our support of Israel.

I won't say what percentage of it is, but it's far more complicated than that. There are simply major cultural differences between east and west, and the Islamic mindset (warning, insensitive and inflammatory comments coming) doesn't abide change and liberalism. Therefore, the Islamists dislike the West. Since the U.S. is the "face of the west" they hate us. Had the face of the west been Canada, the CN Tower would have been hit with a 777.

And subsequently done a billion dollars of improvements to Toronto.

Paul|3.5.09 @ 7:28PM|#

Are you suggesting that "Milk" was on the shitty fringe?

No, just Sean Penn.

Paul|3.5.09 @ 7:31PM|#

And by the way, I never said "shitty fringe". You did. I just said "fringe". Take a look at my movie collection some time. There's nothing wrong with fringe.

My real point was that critics of the Oscars have complained that part of the increasing obscurity of the Oscars is due to the fact that once in a while, a BlockBuster movie is actually oscar material, but they're avoided by the panel. The main criticism being that they keep nominating movies that no one is actually going to see.

Not that these movies being nominated aren't good, but have themes and subject matters that keep them on the fringe.

|3.5.09 @ 7:32PM|#

well the article higlights all of bin ladens messages from the early ninties up to about 2007

initially he was more concerned about Saudi Arabia not being Islamic enough and surprisingly

about America not being Imperialistic enough and getting involved in the Bosnia conflict

It shows how generally how Al Queada shaped its messages more to coalesce with anti-americanism and the anti-Israel lobby
after 9/11

This is very true. If you go back and read binLaden's list of greivances from 2001, it's full of bizarro shit like Andalusia. US troops in the "land of the Two Holy Shrines" is the #1 complaint, not Israel.

It wasn't until several years later that you started having binLaden quoting Michael Moore films and sounding like a closet Marxist.

MNG|3.5.09 @ 7:33PM|#

Paul and MaterialMonkee

I have to say I think your thoughts are bizarre, to say the least.

I mean, it's actually quite simple to discover why we are so hated in the Muslim world.

Israel has warred with Muslin nations quite a bit, and there seems to be some anti-Semitism built into Islam.

No nation has given Israel the support, both militarily and diplomatically, that we have in the past several decades.

I mean, why have to conjure up complex theories of cultural difficulties and caliphates? It's pretty straightforward. If you hated a nation, and another nation went to extreme lengths to support that nation, you'd hate the latter nation too, wouldn't you?

|3.5.09 @ 7:35PM|#

Paul, my question about "Milk" was just a lame attempt at homersexual butt sex humour. My apologies if I offended anyone.

Paul|3.5.09 @ 7:37PM|#

well the article higlights all of bin ladens messages from the early ninties up to about 2007

initially he was more concerned about Saudi Arabia not being Islamic enough

this is a good point. Somewhere around here I have some of Bin Laden's writings because after 9/11, I didn't want anyone spewing any bullshit about "what really motivated" Bin Laden, I wanted his own words so I could read them and judge for myself. Bin Laden is in fact very concerned about Western Liberalism and says some things that sometimes get very close to him "hating us for our freedom". It's hard to say that because, well, you sound like a Bushian when you repeat that. But the reality is, he hates the west for everything it is, that includes many of the things that the Democratic party holds dear. Just sayin'.

MNG|3.5.09 @ 7:38PM|#

Paul
I feel you and disagree some, let me explain.

I was very angry that Penn won and not Rourke for the Wrestler. I do think that the fact that Penn was playing a gay activist made the difference, and I think that is shitty.

Having said that, Milk was a well done film and Penn did an incredible job (I realize that in your comments you highlighted that the Oscar winners are good films, so I guess I'm answering more than you here). But, I don't like the Academy's seeming need to be confrontational to the American public, especially when you have a performance like Rourke's that everybody can get behind and is still excellent...

|3.5.09 @ 7:38PM|#

mng, I don't have any idea how much stuff Israel buys from us. I was just tossin out a few ideas about our unflagging support for them. I took no sarcasm in your answer.

MNG|3.5.09 @ 7:41PM|#

Well, who cares about what bin Laden really thinks? The point is, why is there so much anti-Americanism in the Muslim-Arab world that he so readily taps into?

And I think it's daft to not see our support for Israel as the main thing behind that...

Paul|3.5.09 @ 7:41PM|#

I have to say I think your thoughts are bizarre, to say the least.
[...]
mean, why have to conjure up complex theories of cultural difficulties and caliphates? It's pretty straightforward. If you hated a nation, and another nation went to extreme lengths to support that nation, you'd hate the latter nation too, wouldn't you?

Ok, MNG, I'm going to assume that you believe that were it not for our support for Israel, then Bin Laden/Al Qaeda et al. would find the Western World just hunkey dorey? I thought my remarks were pretty politic and reasonable. But since you call them "bizarre", I know must believe that you think that ANY theory outside of our support of the Zionists is a crappy fringe theory?

Paul|3.5.09 @ 7:47PM|#

And I think it's daft to not see our support for Israel as the main thing behind that...

But I never suggested to even know what percentages... I said that above. I might agree that our support of Israel is the MAIN thing. I mean, there's no underestimating the hate of the Jews by the Jihadi's. So any support given is going to rile them highly.

I just said that I don't believe it's all there is.

Dudar de Thomas|3.5.09 @ 7:47PM|#

"ordering his deputies to create an enemies list of opposition journalists

Cramer, Santelli,LIMBAUGH!

Oh wait, that is Obama's enemy list."

Amen.

MNG|3.5.09 @ 7:47PM|#

brotherben

Noted. I don't think our policy is always moved by some economic motive. Ideas matter. Like I said, look at how Russia has at times gone to bat for Serbia. Why should they do that? Serbia is a little shit of a nation which can't do much for Russia...They do it because Serbia is culturally related to them. That resonates with the Russian public and the Russian rulers have to, to some degree, appease that public.

Israel is in some sense like that...Israelis can often speak English, many Arabs can't. Our religion is rooted in Judaism, not Islam....Apart from the territories they occupy Israel has what looks like (and is) a democracy very similar to ours...Israel is also geographically very small, if you look at it on a map relative to its Arab antagonists it looks like a super underdog, and that resonates with Americans...And then of course there is the Holocaust...

Having said that, the U.S. puts itself out there for Israel in some pretty extreme ways...We give it far more money than any other nation (given our interests and geo-political reality that is just odd)...We go to the mat for it diplomatically in extreme ways (look at all the UN votes in which we are like one of four votes for Israel compared to over a hundred against)...We suffer things like the OPEC embargo for ur support...And it just does not phase our level of support, even when Israel does something (like increase settlements) that we publicaly oppose!

It's a strange situation...

MNG|3.5.09 @ 7:51PM|#

Oh Paul, I agree that there is this whole Islamic/Western World Clash of Civilization thing going on. There is also specific instances of grievances (certainly our hate in Iran is related to our support for the Shah)...

My only point is that, given the problems it has created for us, and given Israel is a little nation with little to offer us for its support (in traditional terms), it's a strange thing, the level of our support.

Sorry if I was not clear, or insulting in the use of my term "bizarre."

Bob Hope|3.5.09 @ 7:56PM|#

"The focus is on Venezuela because obnoxious dickbags like Sean Penn loudly support Chavez. You don't have that with Egypt."

I LOVED Egypt! Great times!

Paul|3.5.09 @ 7:57PM|#

Apropos of this, I was re-reading some of Bin Laden's 1996 "declaration of war", just now. Good gawd that guy's a fucking blowhard.

After reading half a dozen paragraphs of this guys prose, the image of Indiana Jones shooting the swordsman after the fancy blade flourishing comes into my mind.

|3.5.09 @ 8:00PM|#

"That point he made dozens of times. I seem to remember threads where I asked him straight out that if he changed the rules of Venezuelan Democracy by executive fiat, would that still be Venezuelan Democracy?"

I clearly recall that.

|3.5.09 @ 8:02PM|#

mng, I just took a peek at a congressional report on foreign aid to Israel from 2006. very interesting stuff.

I browsed your link to bin laden's writing. It reminds me a lot of Ted Koscinzki's manifesto.
and my own journal entries, interestingly enough.

|3.5.09 @ 8:02PM|#

Paul, there is also no underestimating the hate of Arabs, Arab Israelis, Christians, Egyptians, Goyim, Iraquis, Jordanians, Kuwaitis, Lebanese, Libyans, Muslims, Palestinians, Persians and Saudi Arabians, by the zionists.

|3.5.09 @ 8:03PM|#

2nd part above was for paul

|3.5.09 @ 8:07PM|#

brotherben-

I'm thinking Sean Penn might be well cast as the composite of OBL, 1bomb and you?

MNG|3.5.09 @ 8:09PM|#

Often on this site people will make these factual claims that I find suspect from what I know, but not thinking it central to the argument I ignore it...

Now reading the 1996 Fatwa, I wonder who could think that Israel is not central to the Al Qaeda message...Yes, since the topic is declaring the regime of Saudia Arabia as immoral most of it is focuse on other things, but one would think the constant reference to the Zionist-Crusader Alliance would tip one off to the importance of Israel...

Lies that life is black and wh|3.5.09 @ 8:09PM|#

"Now that this is gone it's pretty much motivated by a mindset to
1. Defend Israel
2. Push U.S. interests
3. Defeat Islamic Radicalism
4. Don't forget number one (Defend Israel)
5. Did we mention defend Israel?"

How is this changing in the new admin.? That seems to be the gist of much Obama-bashing around here.

|3.5.09 @ 8:13PM|#

Re: Dudar de Thomas | March 5, 2009, 7:25pm

Talk to you doctor. Ask if Thorazine is right for you.

Paul|3.5.09 @ 8:14PM|#

Libertymike,

I'm not sure about that. I mean, I find it hard to believe. I try to see through my own bias for Israel-- because I do admit it exists, and I just don't see the same level of hate. I don't hate the muslim world because of 9/11. I see the Israeli state as more bureaucratic. Heavy handed, yes. Wrongheaded at times, yes. But I just can't (no matter how hard I've tried over the years) see any moral equivalency, here. I don't see the Palestinians and the Israeli's as two sides of the same coin. I see Israel as a democratic nation which, for better or worse is established in that part of the world. I see the Palestinians has having legitimate grievances against the Israelis, but much more disconnected from their own command and control structure. Where Israel is wrong-headed or heavy handed, I attribute to the democratic bureacracies of a developed nation. Where Palestine is wrong-headed, I see as the whims of a small political elite which acts on personal biases largely disconnected from the people they represent.

Zionist-Crusader Alliance would tip one off to the importance of Israel...

I agree, it is central, MNG, and I want to make myself clear on that. But I don't know how much of that is just a rallying point for a whole pastiche of hates that would exist regardless.

MNG|3.5.09 @ 8:14PM|#

I can't wish a horrible enough death on bin Laden...A spoilt rich douche who turned to an evil fundie version of a religion for his "meaning in life", with psuedo-intellectual pretentions and angst that, but for a tidy trust fund, would have been meaningless, who turned his stupidity into much human misery...

|3.5.09 @ 8:18PM|#

"I mean, it's actually quite simple to discover why we are so hated in the Muslim world"

Get on your knees and take it up the arse

pussy

seriously

I can say as a Brit that there's a genuine reason why Arabs should hate British people

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BP#Activity_in_1909_-_1979

there's a fucking good reason why arabs should hate French people

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algerian_War

There's fuck all reason why Arab's should hate yanks

MNG|3.5.09 @ 8:18PM|#

"a whole pastiche of hates that would exist regardless"

I don't think there would be nearly as much or as intense a hatred were it not for that. I point that out because a lot of Israeli apologists (which I do NOT accuse you of being) peddle this line "our support for Israel has nothing to do with our problems, so keep it coming!"

Africans and Latin Americans don't particularly like the U.S....But Arabs/Muslims REALLY dislike the U.S...And it is not remarkable considering the extreme support we've given to their hated ally...

|3.5.09 @ 8:18PM|#

prior to 9/11 that is

|3.5.09 @ 8:19PM|#

Africans and Latin Americans don't particularly like the U.S.

whoa

where do you get this shit mate?

Like all those brown people just think the same

|3.5.09 @ 8:20PM|#

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/2262217/Analysis-How-George-W-Bush-became-an-African-hero.html

MNG|3.5.09 @ 8:21PM|#

Monkee
Are you mentally challenged or something?

Imagine you are an Arab/Muslim? What would be the chief reason you might hate the U.S.?

Maybe because the U.S. gives more aid, both economically and diplomatically, to the nation which you see as killing your brethern, than any other nation comes close to doing?

Or some other complicated bullshit?

I mean, every nation in the world has the beef with France, England and the US you mention...But the hate in the Arab/Muslim world for the US has quite a bit different flavor, eh?

|3.5.09 @ 8:21PM|#

take note of that headline

Analysis-How-George-W-Bush-became-an-African-hero

that was before the son of a Kenyan became US prime minister

|3.5.09 @ 8:22PM|#

But the hate in the Arab/Muslim world for the US has quite a bit different flavor, eh?

not really

have you ever left the US?

|3.5.09 @ 8:25PM|#

But the hate in the Arab/Muslim world for the US has quite a bit different flavor, eh?

"the hate in the Arab/Muslim world"

is fairly equal with regards to pretty much anyone within or without of the muslim world

don't feel so privileged

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/cricket/article5841672.ece

MNG|3.5.09 @ 8:27PM|#

MaterialMonkee


I pointed out that while in Africa and Latin America the US is hated that it takes a different flavor among Muslim and Arab nations...Of course many African nations are Muslim...Of course you do not deny that the U.S. is hated in nations like Egypt, Morocco, Tanzania, Sudan, etc., which are, well, in Africa...Do you?

Paul|3.5.09 @ 8:28PM|#

I point that out because a lot of Israeli apologists (which I do NOT accuse you of being)

Oh, I cop to apologizing for Israel at times over the course of my lifetime. Believe you me. But I'm older now...

(notice I didn't say wiser)

I really have spent time trying to see through my Israel bias and be critical of Israel where it needs to be criticized. I do think that we should devolve our support for Israel, even if that means little more than continuing our support for an Israel/Palestine peace process. The best thing that ever happened to the region was the death of Arafat. I honestly felt that when that sack of shit kicked the bucket, that the whole region could finally get some real work done.

Paul|3.5.09 @ 8:28PM|#

Anyhoo, it's Miller Time(tm).

MNG|3.5.09 @ 8:30PM|#

Material Monkee

I mean really. We support a nation that has had several wars with Arabs/Muslims. You don't think that supplies a logical explanation for a great deal of the hate for us?

WTF? I mean, answer this question: if a nation made war on us with devastating results for us, wouldn't you hate a third nation which provided a great deal of support for the nation that we warred with?

karma|3.5.09 @ 8:32PM|#

"I can't wish a horrible enough death on bin Laden...A spoilt rich douche who turned to an evil fundie version of a religion for his "meaning in life", with psuedo-intellectual pretentions and angst that, but for a tidy trust fund, would have been meaningless, who turned his stupidity into much human misery..."

And who paid/paid for that trust fund?

B|3.5.09 @ 8:36PM|#

Chavez is a dictator. The people there have begun to see that, and they will revolt."


Yeah, just like they have in Iran, North Korea, Cuba and China, all now home to thriving democracies.

Naturally the Obama administration is just sitting by, saying nothing. The depths of this administration's incompetence, fully evident after only six weeks, makes Bush look like Solon.

karma|3.5.09 @ 8:37PM|#

"I actually got a small cult following on the south american social networking group Hi5

www.hi5.com/

pretending to be a radical chavista

It was awsome fun"

"seriously

I can say as a Brit that there's a genuine reason why Arabs should hate British people"

Hmmmmm.....

MNG|3.5.09 @ 8:49PM|#

B
What do you want Obama to do? Invade Venezula and declare democracy?

Mission Accomplished!

Plant Immigration Rights Suppo|3.5.09 @ 8:54PM|#

OK, were I alive at the time I would have opposed the creation of the modern state of Israel. That said, I think it is the height of absurdity to blame Middle East hatred of the United States on our defense of a land mass the size of Connecticut. Seriously, this would be like US Citizens going apeshit because The Gambia was suddenly annexed by Senegal. It may or may not be tragic but it would be no reason to suddenly start hating Senegalese.

MNG|3.5.09 @ 9:03PM|#

PIRS Supporter
That's daft.

A more apt analogy: Gambia is annexed by Senegal. We oppose it and we fight a series of wars with Senegal in which Senegal kills thousands of Americans and hands us our ass several times.

France provided unusual support to Senegal during this time.

Don't we hate Senegal?

I mean, come on...

MNG|3.5.09 @ 9:04PM|#

Oh, and France?

MNG|3.5.09 @ 9:07PM|#

It always strikes me as how powerful the pro-Israel tendency is in this nation to wonder, why do those Arabs/Muslims hate us so much?


And not to assume that it has anything to do with our extreme support for a nation which has bested those nations in several conflicts...People tend to not like nations which best them in military conflicts, you know?

What in the world is that?

Plant Immigration Rights Suppo|3.5.09 @ 9:08PM|#

MNG,

That is not an apt analogy because we have no business being there in the first place.

MNG|3.5.09 @ 9:10PM|#

Here is a list of UN votes on Israel in which we took Israel's side...It's from a pro-Israel site...

Can you notice some lopsided support from Israel there? Hunh? And can you see how UNIQUE our support is? Hunh?

And you don't think Arabs/Muslims noticed that?

I mean, wtf guys?

|3.5.09 @ 9:10PM|#

MNG,

I actually agree with you that the primary, main, overwhelming number one reason why we are hated in the Muslim world is because of our Israel.

It does not, however, therefore follow that our support for Israel is wrong.

You point at Israel's treatment of the Palestinians as the reason why the Muslims hate Israel (and by extension us), but I would argue strongly that it has more to do with cultural chauvanism, and general religious bigotry towards all non-Muslims.

They have the cultural mores of pre-20th-century Europe, where every ethnic group thought it was racially superior and divinely ordained to rule the others. They are still tribalistic, insular, and rampantly prejudiced against outsiders.

The hatred of the Jews thus has less to do with the fact that they kicked the Palestinians off that land, than with the fact that the Jews are non-Arab and non-Muslim, and they can't stand the fact that an "inferior" people managed to defeat them.

The way they dehumanize the Jews in Arab newspapers really isn't any different from the way racial minorities have been dehumanized throughout history whereever racial bigotry is part of the normal culture.

MNG|3.5.09 @ 9:11PM|#

Oh holy shit PIRS...

THAT IS YOUR ANALOGY!!!!

Jesus Christ!

Ironic|3.5.09 @ 9:11PM|#

"And not to assume that it has anything to do with our extreme support for a nation which has bested those nations in several conflicts...People tend to not like nations which best them in military conflicts, you know?

What in the world is that?"

It is sports at its most bloody and deadly. Ask a football fan which team he or she "hates" and it will almost always be the team that is most likely to beat his or her favorite team.

MNG|3.5.09 @ 9:13PM|#

Hazel
Let me make the leap you suggest that Muslims just hate Jews and Israel for irrational reasons...

Now I ask you, what would benefit us more, to curry favor with the Muslim world, or Israel?

B|3.5.09 @ 9:15PM|#

"Oh Paul, I agree that there is this whole Islamic/Western World Clash of Civilization thing going on. There is also specific instances of grievances (certainly our hate in Iran is related to our support for the Shah)...

My only point is that, given the problems it has created for us, and given Israel is a little nation with little to offer us for its support (in traditional terms), it's a strange thing, the level of our support."


I would call you a useful idiot, but you go way beyond that. Hell, you make Sean Penn look like a genius.

Yeah the level of hate in Iran is totally related to the Shah. Never mind that he was deposed 30 fucking years ago. To mention the Shah, without mentioning the fact that Iran is a backward, Islamofascist mullahcracy opposed to the very thought of a liberal democracy, thus implying that Iran's hatred of the West is justified, and rational, is a disgusting apologia that smacks of water-carrying for one of the most despotic regimes on the face of the earth.

However, you fully reveal the reason behind your ridiculous apologies with your urging to the United States to abandon its ally in Israel. That you think we should abandon Israel because it is under seige from a who's-who of rogue states, terrorist regimes and Islamic dictatorships would make Neville Chamberlain blush. Exactly what does abandoning any ally gain for the United States? Absolutely nothing, and in this case it would legitimize the thugocracies in the Middle East that claim they sanction terrorism abroad and abuse the human rights of their citizens at home because Israel occupies a piece of land roughly the size of Vermont.

Seriously, anyone who thinks we should abandon Israel because terrorists belonging to an Islamic death-cult vaporize a Sbarro's really is too fucking stupid to do anything other than put together those five piece jigsaw-puzzles whilst wearing a helmet for their own protection. And boy what a lovely message that would send to terrorists around the world: kill enough innocent civilians on a bus or in a pizza parlor, and the United States will abandon you.

"My only point is that, given the problems it has created for us..."

What a fucking joke. The problems Israel created? All along I thought those problems were created by terrorists, you know, the one's whose whole stated reason for being is the destruction of Israel. I bet you think Britian caused us a lot of problems because they were invaded by the Nazis. And those damn Poles, Norwegians, Dutch, Belgians and French during WWII. If only they wouldn't have gone and gotten themselves invaded. That you use the writings of Bin Laden, a mass-murdering terrorist as some sort of trump card, an exhibit A, in your "case" for abandoning Israel shows how truly fucking pathetic you are.

In all the time I have posted on this site, I have never read anyone who apologizes for mass-murderers as much as you do. But hey, as long as they murder Israelis it's ok, right?

Plant Immigration Rights Suppo|3.5.09 @ 9:17PM|#

MNG, the problem lies with Bronze Age Mythology, not with the US direct involvement. Were it not for Bronze Age mythology, that piece of dirt would not be so meaningful. It is also the case that without Bronze Age Mythology existing in the XXth Century the modern state of Israel would not have been created.

|3.5.09 @ 9:18PM|#

Now I ask you, what would benefit us more, to curry favor with the Muslim world, or Israel?

What would benefit the cause of liberty more? To support a western liberal democratic society, or to curry favor with an ignorant, insular, backwards, racist, tribalistic, violent, thuggish, sexist, society?

Hmmm... lets pick the ignorant, violent, racist, mysogynistic thugs, because they have oil.

SIV|3.5.09 @ 9:19PM|#

Plant Immigration Rights Supporter


Good to see ya back here commenting.

Plant Immigartion Rights Suppo|3.5.09 @ 9:20PM|#

SIV, thanks, I have had actual work to do at work now I have a break

MNG|3.5.09 @ 9:24PM|#

B
If I were to think you were an idiot because you cannot even come up with a name apart from one letter, but decided not to judge you on that, I would be re-convinced by your stupid post...

"Never mind that he was deposed 30 fucking years ago."

Yeah, why not let bygones be bygones when one nation overthrows another and supports the overthrowing dictator? I mean, what kind of dickwad would hold a grudge for that kind of intermeddling in our nations government a long thirty years ago?

"Exactly what does abandoning any ally gain for the United States?"

"The problems Israel created? All along I thought those problems were created by terrorists, you know, the one's whose whole stated reason for being is the destruction of Israel."

I'm kind of crazy this way, I think the U.S. should do what is in its interest EVEN IF doing what is in Israel's interest, though against our interest, may be in some cosmic sense "right."

I don't think our job is to go across the globe defending what is right.

You don't either...

B|3.5.09 @ 9:25PM|#

"Now I ask you, what would benefit us more, to curry favor with the Muslim world, or Israel?"

Let me ask you, you pathetic piece of shit, what would benefit us more, supporting the only democracy in the regime or bowing and scraping before a bunch of mass-murderering fascist terrorists who want to relive the "glory" of the Middle Ages?

Jesus Christ, are some people on this site so fucking dumb that they don't remember what happened in the first half of the 20th Century? You know, when a mass-murderer planned for world conquest, relying on the fact that the gutless fuckers around him were too busy celebrating "peace in our time" to notice he was busy planning their destruction.

Yes, please tell us how beneficial it would be to curry favor with the very people who want to destroy us.
And what's even worse is that your desire for the appeasement of these butchers is seemingly motivated entirely by your hatred of Israel. I know the term anti-semitism gets thrown around way too much, but if the shoe fits, wear it.

B|3.5.09 @ 9:27PM|#

"If I were to think you were an idiot because you cannot even come up with a name apart from one letter, but decided not to judge you on that, I would be re-convinced by your stupid post"

Yeah, and you have three letters in your "name". You must be a fucking genius.

What are you doing wasting time on this forum? You have murderers to shill for and jews to bash.

MNG|3.5.09 @ 9:28PM|#

Hazel
Interesting...A nation that is based on "a land for a people", a people that had not inhabited the land for twenty centuries, THAT is not tribalism of course...Hilarious...

But what I asked is, what is in OUR interest, as U.S. citizens and taxpayers? Do you want to pay for Israel's fights?

You are now...

"It is also the case that without Bronze Age Mythology existing in the XXth Century the modern state of Israel would not have been created."

PIRS-Agreed.

MNG|3.5.09 @ 9:29PM|#

B

Hahaha.. yeah, jews to kill...How do I get any free time?

Seriously though, MNG stands for Mister Nice Guy...I'm kind of a regular here and most people know that...

But nice of you to not make even the most feeble attempt to answer my points...I knew you could not do so anyway, so thanks for not wasting our time!

MNG|3.5.09 @ 9:31PM|#

"To support a western liberal democratic society"

If you are one of the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians living under Israeli rule (at gunpoint) I doubt you'd think of it as a "liberal democracy"

Plant Immigration Rights Suppo|3.5.09 @ 9:36PM|#

"I mean, what kind of dickwad would hold a grudge for that kind of intermeddling in our nations government a long thirty years ago?"

A better question is "what kind of dickwad would blame one individual for the actions of another individual just because they happen to live within the same arbitrarily drawn lines"?

MNG|3.5.09 @ 9:39PM|#

'A better question is "what kind of dickwad would blame one individual for the actions of another individual just because they happen to live within the same arbitrarily drawn lines"?'

ummm, ok...PIRS...Can you explain wtaf you mean by this?

|3.5.09 @ 9:42PM|#

Interesting...A nation that is based on "a land for a people", a people that had not inhabited the land for twenty centuries, THAT is not tribalism of course...Hilarious...

But what I asked is, what is in OUR interest, as U.S. citizens and taxpayers? Do you want to pay for Israel's fights?

Israel's culture, despite their own religious belief in being the Chosen People of God, is a thousand times superior to the medieval tribalism and willful ignorance of the Arab world.

And I do mean "willful" ignorance. They managed to live through a couple of centuries of the rise of Europe and the industrialization of the West, without managing to learn a damn thing from it, and all because they are prejudiced against outsiders. "Those evil European Christians couldn't possibly have a thing to teach US! We the blessed people of Mohammed, evenything WE need to know is in the Holy Koran!"

And you think Israel is no different? Half of the greatest modern scientisits are Jewish, including Albert Einstein. Name ONE Arab-Muslim scientist who made a single significant discovery in modern times.

My "interest" is in Liberty, and I believe that our country's interest is too. Because Liberty is the cause of America. It is our founding principle and motivating force. Military, economic, and diplomatic power are only useful, so long as they can be used to advance that cause. Sacrificing those principles in pursuit of greater geopolitical influence would be to burn the villiage in order to save it.

MNG|3.5.09 @ 9:43PM|#

Do you mean why would one Palestinian hate an Israeli because one lives on one side of an "arbitarily drawn line"?

Is it because the Israeli's now live on their land? Or because the Israelis now rule them?

Because, yeah, people are kind of funny about folks living on their land or ruling them without their consent...Kind of mean of them to them to think that way, eh?

When it comes to Israel people take their principles and launch them into some sub-atomic level...

Plant Immigarion Rights Suppor|3.5.09 @ 9:45PM|#

"ummm, ok...PIRS...Can you explain wtaf you mean by this?"

National boundaries are arbitrarily drawn lines. They serve no purpose but to define the boundaries of the local mafia.

MNG|3.5.09 @ 9:46PM|#

Hazel
Are you losing your mind?

Why do you equate "Jews" with "Israel?" Most Jews do NOT live in Israel, you know that right?

As to your comments about Arabs, you do know that if not for Arabs the West would probably not know about Aristotle and much other philosopy, right?

I'm curious if you can tell me, how is the liberty of the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians served by Israeli occupation? Let me know!

jester|3.5.09 @ 9:46PM|#

Oligarchies are the rule from Mexico to Arg/Chile. They run the show in an under- performing crowd-out competition way through tariff/licensing, etc.

They send their kids to summercamps, prep schools and universities nearly exclusively in the West (US Europe). There they learn how imperialist West ruined their respective countries potential. Irony alert! So you send your kids there to learn?

Since the bogeyman is shifted to an outside foreign enemy, they are free to deprive their countries of the benefits of free market economics. Just listen to the Right and Left in our own country. Build a Wall. Embargo China, Boycott Walmart (for the wrong reasons) ad infinitum.Meanwhile inflation soars, underemployment is the rule.

So occasionally the oligarchy slips up in their laziness and greed and the FARC or Path or Chavez get the uperhand. There would be reason to cheer when the creepy oligarchs get their come-uppance but really these scenarios are just Kill-Bill revenge allegories for the avg. individulas. From frying pan to fire, if you will. Sure Castroite Che-Guevara Viva-la-Revolucion romantico mierda says fucking a! we got you lazy oligarchs but is it worth it just to say we stuck it to greedy bastards to excuse the fact that the lot in life for the rest of humanity remains stifled? Can we rest on those pitiful laurels?

No. Unless economic liberalization occurs it doesn't matter if it it's Uribe, Chavez or Alan Garcia.

That's a stupid pissing match. Would any of us seriously want any of these sellouts?

Sure it's easy to criticize a Fuji for human rights violations. But when combating a human rights ignorer like the Sendero? Again stupid pissing match.

Remember when high society Mexican women fantasized getting boned by Commandante Marcos, the mysterious leader of the Chiapan revolt? The Oligarchy and the Revolution are such strange bedfollows. Most of the time they make things cozy, sometimes one gets the best of the other. But it's never cause to cheer.

When free trade puts these lazy greedy 100 families into full fledged competetion: that's when you cheer.

Until then Chavez sucks and so does everyone leading down yonder. And every declaration that Chavez sucks should be cheered, not defended by some bullshit, 'but Pinochet (or any other asshole) was worse'. If you want to examine shit under a microscope, go for it, but you have no peers here.

Plant Immigration Rights Suppo|3.5.09 @ 9:49PM|#

"Do you mean why would one Palestinian hate an Israeli because one lives on one side of an "arbitarily drawn line"?"

That is only a small part of my meaning.

"Is it because the Israeli's now live on their land? Or because the Israelis now rule them?"

All of the above.

"Because, yeah, people are kind of funny about folks living on their land or ruling them without their consent...Kind of mean of them to them to think that way, eh?"

A government does not legitimately own anything.

"When it comes to Israel people take their principles and launch them into some sub-atomic level..."

Yes, they do.

MNG|3.5.09 @ 9:54PM|#

PIRS
You do realize that there are Palestinians who lived on certain land for centuries...And now the Israelis build roads, put up barriers, place checkpoints, etc. all over this land (talk about your eminent domain!)...They use force to control trade, movement of labor, etc...All in Palestine...

And if somebody did that to you (plus bombed your sister and nephew to death), you wouldn't hate them?

And you wouldn't hate an extreme supporter of them?

MNG|3.5.09 @ 9:57PM|#

Gotta go guys, but it is always amazing what defenders of Israel will argue...

Plant Imigration Rights Suppor|3.5.09 @ 10:01PM|#

"You do realize that there are Palestinians who lived on certain land for centuries...And now the Israelis build roads, put up barriers, place checkpoints, etc. all over this land (talk about your eminent domain!)...They use force to control trade, movement of labor, etc...All in Palestine..."

"The Israelis" is an arbitrary grouping. An individual person who violates the property rights of another individual is to be condemned.

"And if somebody did that to you (plus bombed your sister and nephew to death), you wouldn't hate them?"

I would hate the individual who did that to me yes.

"And you wouldn't hate an extreme supporter of them?"

I would hate an individual who supports an individual who would do such a thing. Should I assume everyone in your state shares your views? Would that be logical? I do not believe in the legitimacy of any government entity - whether Israel or the United States. The State is a myth that has caused almost as many travesties and wars as religion has.
http://mises.org/story/3285

jester|3.5.09 @ 10:05PM|#

This fear of a Muslim planet shit is the phoniest of frauds. The likelihood of you being killed by a terrorist, even on your trip to see the Sphinx in Egypt or on a sneaky trip to Iran itself to see the old American Embassy, is less likely than you being a victim to shoddy health-care under the government monopoly proposed by our Commander-in-Chief.

All the World\'s A Stage|3.5.09 @ 10:09PM|#

MNG [Exits stage right, er left, I mean]

forgets soliloquy on how the new admin. differs radically or at all from the previous one.

|3.5.09 @ 10:16PM|#

MNG,

The Palestinians can have a liberal democratic society any time they want one.

All they have to do is decide that they don't need to avenge their honor by wiping the infidels off the map.

Staged Death|3.5.09 @ 10:21PM|#

Gotta go guys....................

But at least you'll be back. And with an answer to the radical changes on Israel policy that will occur under the Obama administration. They will probably be crafted by Rahm Emmanuel, professed self-hating Jew, Phillip Roth scholar who sided with Mia during Don't-fuck-your-step-daughter-gate.

MNG|3.5.09 @ 10:30PM|#

OK, I'm not gone yet...

"Staged Death", you are a fool, Rahm Emmanuel as a "self hating Jew"? The guy lost a DIGIT fighting FOR Israel! I doubt you have done as much...

Hazel
You do know you did not even attempt to answer even ONE of my questions I put to you! (Israel makes many minds get a lil' goofy I admit)...

PIRS

Urr., ok, the state is a myth...You are a Palestinian farmer...The IDF comes and lays roads across the lands you and your ancestors have planted for centuries (roads for settlements)...When you go to trade your crops they stop you at gunpoint and tell you when you can davance them and when you cannot (if you live in Gaza, whether you voted for Hamas or not you CANNOT)...

You think this is fair?

That's incredible imo...Only on Israel would you engage in such mental gymnastics....

Plant Immigartion Rights Suppo|3.5.09 @ 10:39PM|#

"You think this is fair?"

Did I say it was? Do you think I think everything MS-13 is fair? Who should I support in a gang war? I support no form of coersion regardless of who is going the coersion?

"That's incredible imo...Only on Israel would you engage in such mental gymnastics...."

Mental gymnastics? Transplant the same circumstaces to some other part of the world and I will give you the same answers.http://mises.org/story/3285

Plant Immiugartion Rights Supp|3.5.09 @ 10:40PM|#

sorry for my spelling errors - I am getting groggy from lack of sleep.

jester|3.5.09 @ 10:51PM|#

Hazel.

Palestine will unlikely have anything much any time soon. The leadership alternatives are caught in a rut wherein martyrdom is bar-none.

Meanwhile, Israel continues to exact 100X reprisals of any pathetic act perpetrated by above philosophy. And they get the U$, although what is it worth these days.

I can't fix it. You can't fix it. Fluffy can't fix it. J sub D can't fix it. Episiarch can't fix it. Kolohe can't fix it. BakedPenguin can't fix it. Warty can't fix it. Xeones can't fix it. JC Randolph can't fix it, ed can't fix it. economist can't fix it. naga sadow can't fix it. seward can't fix it. Chicago Tom can't fix it.

however, the late great joe would think he could fix it. mng definitely can fix it. Lefiti would fix it but we'd know it's a joke. LoneWacko/OrangeLineConspiracy would FixIt by
SealingOff theUS ToAnyoneOf SuspectMelanisticTraits.


The former (excepting the latter) are the finest minds on the planet. Obama's mind proves that miscegenation shouldn't be a crime. It brings the animal white-nigra level of intelligence to par with that of Morgan Freeman.

Staged Death|3.5.09 @ 11:03PM|#

MNG,

That was irony. Of course, Rahm is a committed Israel supporter. Of course he's not self hating.

Excuse me, which administration is he in and how is he going to change policy?

sd

Something is happening but you|3.5.09 @ 11:18PM|#

Mr MNG

You've engaged in debate here. I accept your criticism of the Israel lobby. I also understand the Israeli we-were-attacked-first claim vs. homeland/shmoneland.

Israel won that war for whatever reason. Generations have expired and property rights could be settled but given the socialist/anti-property lean of either state, I find it hard to side with either.My grandfather was Jewish. He married a shiksa, so I gained no profit from the vast Jewish international conspiracy other than my inner inherited Jew sneakiness.

Beware my sneaky innerJew!

|3.5.09 @ 11:46PM|#

Hazel
You do know you did not even attempt to answer even ONE of my questions I put to you! (Israel makes many minds get a lil' goofy I admit)...

That's because I don't have time to waste answering rhetorical questions from people who aren't actually interested in the answers I would give.

economist|3.6.09 @ 12:18AM|#

I love to remind Chavez's fans (past and present) about their claims that he "respected civil liberties" and "dealt civilly with his opposition". It's one of my few politically-related joys in our times of revolutionary change. Doubtless the comrades will push forward in our own country, but I think we have a few years before our situation starts to resemble Venezuela's.

economist|3.6.09 @ 12:20AM|#

"His hold on Venezuela isn't strong enough to avert his impending overthrow, which is going to happen as he keeps acting overtly tyrannical."

Substitute "Cuba" for "Venezuela", and you get what everyone said about Castro's regime.

Just sayin'.

economist|3.6.09 @ 12:22AM|#

Should qualify: What they said about Castro's regime post Cold War. During the Cold War everyone assumed the Soviets would support their ally in the western hemisphere.

economist|3.6.09 @ 12:25AM|#

"My prediction is that now that Obama is president, Chavez' regime will unravel because he's going to have a much harder time convincing the world that Obama is the source of all his problems."

He can just claim that all of his problems are holdovers from the Bush administration.

economist|3.6.09 @ 12:27AM|#

"Chavez is a dictator. The people there have begun to see that, and they will revolt."

Not likely. The majority of Venezuelans seem perfectly content to lie down and take it (as evidenced by the latest votes). And minoritarian revolutions rarely succeed.

economist|3.6.09 @ 12:35AM|#

"we should have faith in the democratic system in Venezula to eventually throw the rascal out..."

HAHAHAHAHAHA! That's funny. Really. Democratic systems only throw rascals out when a true bastard wants their position and can convince the majority (or the plurality) to support him.

economist|3.6.09 @ 12:36AM|#

Welcome to economist's incredible after-the-fact examination of the the thread.

economist|3.6.09 @ 12:39AM|#

"But there is not all this Egypt hate on the right..."

I don't like the government of Egypt either (although I'm not on the right, so this doesn't necessarily contradict your statement). But 1. Egypt isn't as close as Venezuela. 2. They don't have massive oil reserves. 3. They aren't as belligerent and 4. They aren't nearly as comically buffoonish as Chavez.

economist|3.6.09 @ 12:46AM|#

"Joe repeatedly said on those threads that he placed his faith in democracy and the people of Venezula"

In general, placing one's faith in the supposed wisdom of the majority is a recipe for bitter disappointment. I place my faith in the idiocy of the majority, and rarely find myself disappointed.

Naga Sadow|3.6.09 @ 1:42AM|#

Damn you economist! You totally pre empted any snarky comment I had in reserve!

economist|3.6.09 @ 1:50AM|#

Naga,
Bow before the vast blogging power that is Lord Xenu XXV!

economist|3.6.09 @ 1:51AM|#

Lord Xenu XXV being my anti-scientologist alter-ego, of course.

economist|3.6.09 @ 1:57AM|#

I am considering starting my own religion centered around the veneration or worship of Lord Xenu, essentially reversing the Scientologist story that he was an evil overlord who murdered billions into a more favorable tale. I think I could gain a significant following from current scientologists. Rather than try to convince them of the truth (which is practically impossible, and wouldn't earn me a dime, anyway), I can just come up with a more impressive lie.

nebby|3.6.09 @ 4:45AM|#

"If you are one of the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians living under Israeli rule (at gunpoint) I doubt you'd think of it as a "liberal democracy""

At gun point? I think Israel would be fine with many/all of the "Palestinians" - mostly Jordanians and Egyptians -returning to their homeland. If Jordan volunteered to take them back you think Israel would say no?

|3.6.09 @ 7:18AM|#

This is America's future under Obama.

MNG|3.6.09 @ 7:45AM|#

Nebby
You still believe in that old Peter's hoax? I didn't even think the Likudians pushed that rubbish anymore...I don't know how to break this to you, but there were thousands upon thousands of people living in the areas that the Israeli government now rules over. The ones there now didn't just flock there from Jordan and Egypt...

"The Palestinians can have a liberal democratic society any time they want one."

You mean when the Israeli military stops using force to decide what people can go in and out, what goods can go in and out, stops building walls through their land, stops arresting and detaining folks without trial (hundreds of people at this time), controlling their airspace, waterways, etc? Yeah, if that went away then they might could be said to have their own state...

PIRS
It strikes me that at the least you could advocate for that Palestinian farmer in my hypo. There are many individuals like him, being oppressed by a state (Israel). Let him trade. Let him have freedom of movement to seek employment. Let him have his property rights free from the Israeli government putting a road through his crop-lands, a wall through his fields, a settlement on his plains.
Let him vote for a government which is soveriegn (the Palestinian Authority is not a soveriegn that any person here would respect were they Palestinians). We're talking invididual rights here.

|3.6.09 @ 7:50AM|#

"The hatred of the Jews thus has less to do with the fact that they kicked the Palestinians off that land, than with the fact that the Jews are non-Arab and non-Muslim, and they can't stand the fact that an "inferior" people managed to defeat them."

Ding ding ding. We have a winner.

To remove confusion read the history of Jewish-Arab relations prior to founding of Israel.

When you get down to the substance of their claims, it's fundamentally about "yo, we really fucking hate Jews."

MNG|3.6.09 @ 7:53AM|#

What gets me about folks like Hazel and PIRS is the flip they do on things when it comes to Israel-Palestine...

If you mention emininent domain, they loudly oppose it. But if a state (Israel) builds a wall, road or settlement through a Palestinian farmer's fields, as occurs often, mums the word.

They oppose detainment of folks without trial when it happens in the US, but when Israel detains hundreds of Palestinians without trial mums the word.

They oppose restrictions on trade, but when Israel uses force to keep up an embargo on the goods of Palestinian merchants, mums the word.

They would scream bloody murder if our government tried to put relatively mild restrictions on travel and movement on us, but when a state (Israel) puts in checkpoints, walls, etc., and restricts Palestinian laborers from going to willing employers, mums the word.

They would oppose any collective punishment, however mild, here in the US, but as long as it's Palestinians (a majority of whom, even in Gaza, did not vote for Hamas) who are dying in the thousands in blunt military actions, mums the word.

Because Israel is civilized and Arabs are tribal (yeah, nothing tribal about Zionism!) or something-something-something.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Israel makes a lot of libertarians go strangely crazy...

|3.6.09 @ 7:54AM|#

Oh and MNG,

Here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_technology_in_Israel

Educate yourself. Hazel was right.

MNG|3.6.09 @ 7:55AM|#

JB
In the 1930's the Brits, who ruled that area, were startled at violence that was erupting, and they had a commission study it. The commission concluded that the violence orginated in the inevitable clash of Zionism with Arab nationalism, not in "deeply rooted religious hatreds."

I mean, why is it so remarkable to assume that what the Arabs hated was a bunch of Europeans settling down in lands where Arabs lived, declaring a state, and pushing the Arabs off into little camps that the Europeans then proceeded to rule without consent of the Arabs in question for decades?

I'm curious as to what's complicated about that?

MNG|3.6.09 @ 8:01AM|#

JB
Hazel, and you are wrong.

Yes, the Jews in Israel can count among themselves many acientific and cultural achievements.

What does that have to do with their right to rule over people without their consent or our support for that?

Israel makes libertarians crazy...

|3.6.09 @ 8:14AM|#

"I mean, why is it so remarkable to assume that what the Arabs hated was a bunch of Europeans settling down in lands where Arabs lived, declaring a state, and pushing the Arabs off into little camps that the Europeans then proceeded to rule without consent of the Arabs in question for decades?"

Arab nationalism? You mean the cultural tradition of Islam is completely and totally separate from "Arab nationalism."? Could have fooled with all that Grand Mufti of Jerusalem business.

"settling down in lands where Arabs lived"

Umm, that's rather a vague formulation. 90% of that area was unused. You mean Jews came and settled lands that Arabs didn't have the brains or the work ethic to develop? OK, then, agreed.

The rest of it is crap, as I said. The 1929 Hebron massacre and other attacks took place before any of it, and the rest of it has an easy continuity of motive, with varying justification.

Again, if you examine the claims for substance, it's little more than "we fucking hate Jews and don't want them anywhere near us." How libertarian is that, MNG?

|3.6.09 @ 8:29AM|#

"What does that have to do with their right to rule over people without their consent or our support for that?"

The point is that while Albert Einstein wasn't Israeli, Hazel's point was correct. Stop slithering when you're proven incorrect.

As far as "ruling over people without their consent", since when is "libertarianism" strictly about elections/consent? I thought it was about liberty.

Perhaps the reason a lot of people here don't buy your bullshit it's because it's perfectly transparent that for you "libertarianism" is a cudgel to beat Israel with.

MNG|3.6.09 @ 8:38AM|#

JB
WTF are you talking about? Did I dispute that many individual Israelis have accomplished great scientific and cultural achievements? Please point to where I did so.

And what does that have to with anything, eh? What bizarre tribalism:
1. More individual Israeli's have great scientific and cultural achievements than individual Arabs do
2. Therefore the state of Israel can rule over many Arabs without their consent, take their land with impunity, control their movement and trade, detain them, etc.

What kind of insane reasoning is that?

MNG|3.6.09 @ 8:40AM|#

"As far as "ruling over people without their consent", since when is "libertarianism" strictly about elections/consent? I thought it was about liberty."

So what about the liberty of a Palestinian merchant to ship their good?

The liberty of a Palestinian laborer to go where willing employers are?

The liberty of a Palestinian farmer to tend his fields without the state of Israel building a settlement, road or wall on his land?

Minor details?

Or more tribalism (there liberty doesn't matter because "the jews" are civilized and "the Arabs" are not?)?

MNG|3.6.09 @ 8:41AM|#

You know, white South Africans have many more cultural and scientific achievements than black South Africans.

So I guess the old regime was justified, eh?

|3.6.09 @ 8:48AM|#

"WTF are you talking about? Did I dispute that many individual Israelis have accomplished great scientific and cultural achievements? Please point to where I did so."

Stop lying.

"Why do you equate "Jews" with "Israel?" Most Jews do NOT live in Israel, you know that right?

As to your comments about Arabs, you do know that if not for Arabs the West would probably not know about Aristotle and much other philosopy, right?"

The first paragraph referred to Hazel's Einstein comment.

|3.6.09 @ 8:48AM|#

"Well, I'd give him that. There's no such thing as a "malicious" tax-dodger, since they're only trying to keep their own money.

-jcr"

I disagree. If the tax-dodger has a record (Daschle) or philosophy (Geitner) of trying to raise everyone else's taxes while dodging their own, that qualifies them as malicious. I wonder how many of the 47,000 people with UBS accounts are liberal democrats? Disclosure: I have no problem with hiding as much money as you can from the looters and fully plan on moving to a tax haven country if Obama does start going tax raise crazy, I just hate the hypocrites who say that the rich should pay their "fair share" and then they do everything they can do avoid paying the very taxes they've imposed on others.

|3.6.09 @ 8:49AM|#

mark-
You said "I look at Obama as being to the right on Abortion" I am only in my thirties so do not know the stance of the left on abortion in the 70's, could you explain what that position was? I am not making a judgement on the correctness of Obama's position; I just cannot imagine a position to the left of his on abortion.

Thanks.

|3.6.09 @ 8:58AM|#

"So what about the liberty of a Palestinian merchant to ship their good?"

Minor details?"

What about the liberty of Israelis not to get blown up by suicide bombers? If Israel is responsible for protecting the liberties of Palestinian farmers, who's responsible for that?

MNG|3.6.09 @ 9:00AM|#

JB
Are you on something right now? How do you see that quote disputing that many individual Israelis have great cultural and scientific achievements?

And further, what in the world would that fact have to do with anything?

MNG|3.6.09 @ 9:02AM|#

Suicide bombers are evil thugs who violate the rights of Israelis. I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Unless you think that because some individual Palestinians committ evil, thuggish acts that gives the state of Israel the right to build a settlement on another Palestinians land or to rule over him without his consent. What kind of bizarre collectivist tribalism is that?

MNG|3.6.09 @ 9:05AM|#

"who's responsible for that?"

The people who organized and carried out the suicide bomb.

Don't you think individuals should be held accountable for their individual actions? Or do you think it's right to punish a man who has done nothing for the acts of a man who has done an evil, thuggish deed, because he happens to be of the same "tribe."

I mean, if I committed a horrible act does that give the state the right to punish you because you live in my neihborhood?

|3.6.09 @ 9:05AM|#

"You know, white South Africans have many more cultural and scientific achievements than black South Africans.

So I guess the old regime was justified, eh?"

You'd be a lot more convincing if you didn't alternately argue that America should do what is in its best interests, and use "liberty" as a cudgel to beat Israel.

Shouldn't America, by your definition, have supported the aparteid state?

|3.6.09 @ 9:10AM|#

"Don't you think individuals should be held accountable for their individual actions? Or do you think it's right to punish a man who has done nothing for the acts of a man who has done an evil, thuggish deed, because he happens to be of the same "tribe."

I think you have a hard time distinguishing between punitive and defensive actions. Why, if we were to take your argument to its ultimately conclusion, Hamas could launch attacks on Israel from behind a civilian shield, then Israel would be blamed for all casualties of "innocents".

Hey, that's what we have today!

What does libertarianism say about self-defense and collateral damage?

Competing "liberties", asshole.

MNG|3.6.09 @ 9:10AM|#

I'm just letting you know what a stupid argument "teh Joos are smart and high achievers and the Arabs are not so we should support Israel." It's crazy.

Supporting S. Africa would have made us a pariah state and hated by an entire continent (Africa), so it was in our interest to not support them. Ditto for Israel.

|3.6.09 @ 9:11AM|#

ultimately=ultimate

MNG|3.6.09 @ 9:12AM|#

What does collateral damage have to do with building a settlement on a Palestinian farmer's land?

MNG|3.6.09 @ 9:15AM|#

You seem to think I have some problem with Israel responding militarily to Hamas attacks. Such responses are usually appropriate, even when there is collateral damage.

What is not appropriate is to kill 3,000 people to stop attacks that threatened a dozen people because that's a pretty hard thing to argue is a proper balancing of "competing liberties" (3,000 people's liberty interest in compared to 12 people's liberty interest)

|3.6.09 @ 9:17AM|#

"Supporting S. Africa would have made us a pariah state and hated by an entire continent (Africa), so it was in our interest to not support them. Ditto for Israel."

Umm, yeah, so what? "Being hated" isn't a realpolitik argument. Let me ask you a more direct question: if we could be hated by Arabs without consequences (impotent hatred) would you still advocate throwing Israel to the wolves?

The point is you can't use libertarianism as a cudgel to beat Israel, then claim "being hated" as a nebulous rationale for realpolitik.

If Mossad was conducting terrorist attacks in the US, would you say we should be good to Israel so they don't hate us?

Fucking irrational.

Brett Stevens|3.6.09 @ 9:35AM|#

Leftists revolutions occur when the masses of clueless, disillusioned, irresponsible and incapable people decide to take wealth from those who are capable.

Leftist revolutions leave behind shattered nations with mixed-ethnic populations and no future outside of third world status.

Look at what's left of France and Russia, or what was left after Greece and Rome fell. Or even formerly great Persian and Indian empires.

Costaguana -- I mean, Venezuela -- will be the same way.

|3.6.09 @ 9:36AM|#

---who's probably to the right of any liberal from the 70's---

An off handed thought easily disproven.

Even George McGovern came out against Card Check because it is UN-democratic and invites union physical intimidation.

|3.6.09 @ 9:42AM|#

--I look at Obama as being to the right on Abortion--

Craziness! Obama never saw a pro-abortion bill he didn't like. Partial-birth abortion He's for it.!!!

-- on Gun Control

While his Attorney General says we need to ban weapons so we don't contribute to Mexico's drug war? Please!

--as well as a distinct desire NOT to nationalize the banks.

But a clear lefty urge to nationalize health care.

|3.6.09 @ 9:50AM|#

---I mean, I'd rather live in Venezula than, say, Egypt, any day...

But there is not all this Egypt hate on the right...---

Do you suppose that that has anything to do with

1) Venezuela was once a relatively prosperous country (as was Cuba)?

2) The right is not allowed to comment on the hell holes that the Middle Eastern countries are because that would insult the Religion of Peace?

3) Egyptian political leaders may throw rocks at Israel verbally but have honored the Sinai peace, while Chavez proves his leadership simply by attacking the United States and our domination of their rice production facilities?

4) That Chavez was last decade's messiah to the lefties?

|3.6.09 @ 9:56AM|#

What's the rule about typos meaning something more than intended?

RC'z Law. A corollary, really of joe'z memorial law.

|3.6.09 @ 11:15AM|#

The dog that will not hunt is the notion that if we "abandon" Israel, we will be imperilling ourselves because of "the message" it would send to "the terrorists."

LAME. ABSOLUTELY LAME!

MNG|3.6.09 @ 11:56AM|#

JB
Since the cooperation of other nations is useful to us, being hated by those nations does affect our interests. Duh.

The Casual Observer|3.6.09 @ 12:20PM|#

I've noticed that any thread for an article criticizing the government of a foreign country inevitably goes to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

Why's that, I wonder?

|3.6.09 @ 1:41PM|#

My own run-in (minor) with joe was about some of the tax problems his staff were having. Joe made some comment about how clearly these weren't malicious tax-dodgers, they were merely people who had made honest mistakes. He asked if we really believed there was any "intent" on the part of these Obama staff picks.

In my view, the only alternative to malicious intent is an outrageously complicated tax code that not even the highest paid accountants and the Sect. of the Treas. can understand.

Either there was criminial intent or the tax system needs to be trashed as unfair and unreasonable.

|3.6.09 @ 2:13PM|#

Wonder when Obama will begin ramping up his civilian army that he says will be as well equipped as our military forces? who will be hired into this "civilian army"? What is their "job"? Will they dismantle the national guard? Does this remind you of ANYONE????? things that make you go hmmmmmmmm....

|3.6.09 @ 2:37PM|#

From the fearless showmen who brought you "Bedtime for Fidel," "Cuba: Judgment Day," and "Dude, Where's My Ration Card?" now comes...."Springtime for Hugo!"

PLant Immigration RIghts Suppo|3.6.09 @ 2:40PM|#

"It strikes me that at the least you could advocate for that Palestinian farmer in my hypo. There are many individuals like him, being oppressed by a state (Israel). Let him trade. Let him have freedom of movement to seek employment."

My Flying Spaghetti Monster! Have you not been reading ANYTHING I have said? I do advocate for ANYONE who is oppressed. It is both the Palestinian and the Israeli who are opressed. The very nature of government is that of oppression!

PIRS|3.6.09 @ 2:43PM|#

"What gets me about folks like Hazel and PIRS is the flip they do on things when it comes to Israel-Palestine...

If you mention emininent domain, they loudly oppose it. But if a state (Israel) builds a wall, road or settlement through a Palestinian farmer's fields, as occurs often, mums the word."

WTF? You think I justify opression by ANY government? Have you not ready anything I have written?????????

|3.7.09 @ 3:53PM|#

Israel makes libertarians crazy...

I have to agree with MNG here.

Specially when you have supposed libertarians advocating for the loss of rights of a whole whole ethnicity or religion based on the fact that another ethnicity or religion has invented more shit or that the ethnicity or religion behaves more civilized at the dinner table.

Srsly, some of the people and some of the arguments you see. Substitute Israeli/Jewish with white, and Arab/Moslem with black, and you have a level of racism that would make OLS blush.

Very un libertarian. We judge people as individuals, and we abhor collective judgement. And we abhor categorizing people in groups.

If you want to judge moslems or Arabs by islam, ok. If you want to judge them all by the actions of some, not ok.