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New at Reason.tv: Bailing Out the Big Three—Why reward Detroit for making unprofitable cars?
2008 was an apocalyptic year for the American car industry, with sales of Ford, General Motors, and Chrysler cars all falling by 25 percent. Supporters of the Big Three automakers argue that the government needs to provide Detroit with at least $50 billion in taxpayer money in order to save the American car industry—on top of the billions of federally subsidized loans they've already received. President Barack Obama agrees, having attacked John McCain during last year's presidential campaign for opposing a bailout of Detroit.
But while many commenters and union advocates paint Detroit's economic troubles as a consequence of the financial crisis, necessitating its inclusion in the bailout sweepstakes, the financial troubles of the Big Three long predated the current mess. Indeed, in 2007, GM sold more cars and trucks than Toyota. Yet Toyota made almost $2,000 per vehicle while GM lost more than $1,000. So why does the United Auto Workers union and President Obama want taxpayers to reward Detroit—and punish her competitors—for making unprofitable cars?
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zoltan|2.17.09 @ 7:20AM|#
So why does the United Auto Workers union and President
Obama want taxpayers to reward Detroit-and punishing her
competitors-for making unprofitable cars?
I assume this is rhetorical. Obama wants taxpayers to reward
"Detroit" (UAW) so they can give him lots of donations and votes
and make him look like he supports the working class. The UAW wants
taxpayers to reward "Detroit" (UAW) for, uh, let's hear it folks,
more free money for less work. No-brainer.
Pedant|2.17.09 @ 8:03AM|#
Indeed, while Japan beaten by GM in overall car and truck
sales, the company was making almost $2000 in profit per vehicle,
while GM was losing thousand.
Man, that's an awkward sentence.
kilroy|2.17.09 @ 8:08AM|#
Where's an editor when you need one? I guess the poor writing is why it's posted unattributed.
Pedant|2.17.09 @ 8:16AM|#
I'm chalking it up to being too early. Too many President's Day parties at Madam's Organ last night.
|2.17.09 @ 8:30AM|#
As long as you're submitting yourself to joe'z law, Pedant, I'll
point out that it's "Presidents Day" or "Presidents' Day".
Not "President's Day".
|2.17.09 @ 8:32AM|#
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government.
It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote
themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on,
the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most
benefits the public treasury with the result that a democracy
always collapses over lousy fiscal policy, always followed by a
dictatorship. The average of the world's great civilizations before
they decline has been 200 years.
It deserves to be said. I don't think we have the raw natural
resources to extricate ourselves out of the hole we have now dug
this time around.
Naga Sadow|2.17.09 @ 8:43AM|#
Dammit! It's 7:42 here and I want . . . no, I DEMAND new articles to be posted that I may crack jokes!
|2.17.09 @ 8:48AM|#
Too bad we can't just convince everyone to stop paying taxes.
The only way I see stopping the government from giving money away
is to stop giving them money to give away. Oh, and we'd have to
break all the Fed's printing presses.
Mark this down in your "Revolution 2.0" manual.
Naga Sadow|2.17.09 @ 8:49AM|#
SugarFree,
Dude, you live in Kentucky. Are your people somehow immune to the
effects of Central time?
|2.17.09 @ 8:52AM|#
Only Bowling Green is Central time. Lexington, Louisville, and Frankfort are all glorious easterners.
Naga Sadow|2.17.09 @ 8:54AM|#
FrBunny,
Huh. I thought there was some sort of revolt over central time or
somethin'. Damn geography classes!
Reinmoose|2.17.09 @ 9:08AM|#
Hey, at least we're not Mountain time
Those are some real losers.
Then again, there aren't very many people in that pool.
|2.17.09 @ 9:19AM|#
So why does the United Auto Workers union and President
Obama want taxpayers to reward Detroit-and punish her
competitors-for making unprofitable cars?
THAT is The question when discussing the US auto industry. And the
answer is, because the $3000/car difference went straight into the
coffers of the organized crime syndicate known as Union Labor, and
Union Labor has BHO in their hip pocket.
BDB|2.17.09 @ 9:24AM|#
GM will probably go through Chapter 11 in the end (if they're
lucky).
Chrysler is gone already. Finished. Over. Bye-bye!
Ford is the only one that has a chance of surviving in its current
form.
BDB|2.17.09 @ 9:25AM|#
If the parts suppliers are the issue here, if they Must Do Something, give money to the parts suppliers (it would be a lot less money) to make it through the end of GM and Chrysler so Ford can continue to survive.
Rip Van Winkle|2.17.09 @ 9:29AM|#
When Zenith goes, there won't be anymore TVs made in the US . . oh the horror . . .
|2.17.09 @ 9:30AM|#
You got out the big red pencil; it was complete
pwn'demonium.
If I could reach through the internet and strangle you for this, I
would.
Reinmoose|2.17.09 @ 9:30AM|#
My boss just bought an American-made car...
Just about everyone is wishing him luck with it.
They need to just go bankrupt - the brands aren't really salvagable
anymore, or at least it's not worth the 20 years that it would take
to salvage the brands.
BDB|2.17.09 @ 9:32AM|#
We will still have domestic cars.
The Toyota Camry in 70% domestic parts manufactured in Kentucky,
and the Accord is the most "American" car on the road in terms of
percentage of domestic parts and it's assembled in Ohio.
The CEOs will simply be in Tokyo. So what?
BDB 1989|2.17.09 @ 9:33AM|#
"Rip Van Winkle | February 17, 2009, 9:29am | #
When Zenith goes, there won't be anymore TVs made in the US . . oh
the horror . . ."
ZOMG! When Atari goes under we will only have Japanese video
games!
|2.17.09 @ 9:37AM|#
When Atari goes under we will only have Japanese video
games!
You make jokes, but what would we do without Rockstar?
BDB|2.17.09 @ 9:38AM|#
Hey, my point is eventually we *did* get American-made games and
consoles again (well, console).
I don't buy for a minute that there won't be a new domestic
nameplate again in the future if the Big Three were to go under.
They've basically strangled the market since the '30s stopping any
American start-ups.
|2.17.09 @ 9:42AM|#
Then again, there aren't very many people in that
pool.
And we like it that way.
|2.17.09 @ 9:43AM|#
My friends
We need to save the american electronic virtual game industry
because it's a national security issue. We can't have the Japs
imposing their culture on our young ones with their controllers and
3D voodoo. We need to ensure that our children are exposed to good,
old fashioned, American violence.
robc|2.17.09 @ 9:44AM|#
FrBunny,
As yesterday was *really* Washington's Birthday (celebrated, not
actual), then President's Day would be correct.
That day is owned by ONE president.
BDB|2.17.09 @ 9:46AM|#
"Episiarch | February 17, 2009, 9:43am | #
Admittedly, I would like to see EA take a dirt nap."
EA=evil since about 1996.
robc|2.17.09 @ 9:46AM|#
Only Bowling Green is Central time.
Some hatred of Owensboro and Paducah we should know about?
Reinmoose|2.17.09 @ 9:48AM|#
EA has a lot of consumers upset over the DRM stunt with
Spore
I don't know if it'll affect them long term.
|2.17.09 @ 9:51AM|#
robc,
I like where your head's at, but almighty Wiki backs us
both up.
And I was only pointing out KY population centers / places people
outside KY might have heard of.
Jeez robc, did you find out I'm the one letting my dog poop in your
yard or something?
h-dawg|2.17.09 @ 10:01AM|#
Re: earlier comments on not paying taxes, don't worry. Sen. Reid said that taxes are voluntary!
|2.17.09 @ 10:03AM|#
You know who really needs to pay? 3D Realms. Where the fuck is my Duke Nukem Forever, bitches?!?
robc|2.17.09 @ 10:04AM|#
2007 estimated msa populations:
Bowling Green 116k
Owensboro 112k
Paducah 97k
Seems close enough to me. The only noteworthy things BG has to
outsiders is a college and the Corvette plant. I assume it will be
the Honda Corvette or some such sometime soon.
|2.17.09 @ 10:11AM|#
"places people outside KY might have heard
of"
Christ you're cranky. So, yes, as a matter of fact I hate Paducah
and Owensboro. I have a 75-year plan to devalue them in the world's
eyes by neglecting to mention them in lists on message
boards.
Step three: profit!
|2.17.09 @ 10:13AM|#
It's time for an experiment in business operations.
Give GM to the UAW, lock, stock and barrel. With the workers owning
the means of production, quality, market share and profits will
soar.
Nationalize Chrysler. Let the House Committee on Science and
Technology and the Senate Committee of Commerce, Science and
Transportation run it. Obviosusly "green" cars costing less than
$12 K that either get 100 mpg or will transport a family of six 300
miles on a single battery charge will be rolling of the assembly
line in three years.
Let Ford be run using it's current corporate business model. Their
market failure will demonstrate once and for all that making cars
people want for a profit is impossible.
Everyone\'s a critic|2.17.09 @ 10:14AM|#
reason.tv just comes off as kind of pansy-ass. It goes after low-hanging fruit. The GM bailout is an easy target. SNL can lampoon it more effectively. There isn't much more to be said after the SNL skit is done, but reason..tv says it, and is a little whiny while doing it. Doesn't it also seem to have an annoying habit of making points in the form of a question?
|2.17.09 @ 10:25AM|#
I agree 100%. Seems like a big waste of tax dollars to
me!@
RT
www.anon-tools.us.tc
|2.17.09 @ 10:28AM|#
I'm even from Western Kentucky, and I feel free discounting them. The best timezone-Lexington/Louisville perk is that we are right on the edge, so for about a month in the summer it won't get dark until 9:30 or so.
Taktix®|2.17.09 @ 10:30AM|#
As I've been saying, if these companies were capable of
surviving, the Government would have simply bought $50 billion
worth of cars.
The car companies claim that their problem is poor sales, so why
wouldn't we taxpayers just buy cars? I'm sure there's some
Washington staffers who haven't gotten "company" cars yet.
Why? Because even if they bought $50 billion in cars, the car
companies are still fucked. Their problem isn't sales, but rather
an outdate business model propped up by an outdate government
model.
Soon enough, the tent poles will snap, and guess who really gets
fucked? That's right, folks, you and I.
Revolution.
The only solution:
The armed response of an entire nation.
Revolution.
The only solution.
We've taken all your shit now it's time for restitution...
BDB|2.17.09 @ 10:33AM|#
"Taktix® | February 17, 2009, 10:30am | #
As I've been saying, if these companies were capable of surviving,
the Government would have simply bought $50 billion worth of
cars."
I think that actually may be where this is headed. They did it
after the first Chrysler bail-out, anyway. The Feds, state, and
local governments bought a shit-ton of K-Cars.
Ole & Leena|2.17.09 @ 10:38AM|#
"I'm even from Western Kentucky, and I feel free discounting
them. The best timezone-Lexington/Louisville perk is that we are
right on the edge, so for about a month in the summer it won't get
dark until 9:30 or so."
During June in Duluth, MN, it doesn't get dark until nearly 11:30
pm.
|2.17.09 @ 10:40AM|#
During June in Duluth, MN, it doesn't get dark until nearly
11:30 pm.
Nice. And you guys only have four or five blizzards in June, right?
;-)
Taktix®|2.17.09 @ 10:41AM|#
Dammit! It's 7:42 here and I want . . . no, I DEMAND new
articles to be posted that I may crack jokes!
Agreed.
I have snark building up to blue-ball levels...
Taktix®|2.17.09 @ 10:43AM|#
I'm chalking it up to being too early. Too many President's
Day parties at Madam's Organ last night.
Hey, go easy!
Presidents' Day is a big date for Cosmotarian parties ;)
|2.17.09 @ 10:44AM|#
I assume it will be the Honda Corvette or some such sometime
soon.
Maybe they'll finally put the motor where it belongs; behind the
seats.
|2.17.09 @ 10:49AM|#
GM getting another 4 billion today. Freaking great. I'm going to sell commemorative Obama $100 coins struck from 0.1 oz top quality recycled aluminum on Ebay - think there will be a market soon? I plan on leaving space for extra zeros to be added later...
|2.17.09 @ 10:49AM|#
It's time for an experiment in business operations.
Give GM to the UAW, lock, stock and barrel. With the workers owning
the means of production, quality, market share and profits will
soar.
JsubD for Car Czar.
Of course, the UAW would fight that proposal tooth and nail,
because they know EXACTLY how fucking hopeless GM really is.
|2.17.09 @ 10:52AM|#
Give GM to the UAW, lock, stock and barrel. With the workers
owning the means of production, quality, market share and profits
will soar.
JsubD for Car Czar.
Wait, wouldn't that proposal make him Car Commissar or
something?
|2.17.09 @ 10:57AM|#
"Dreh' dich nicht um, schau, schau,
der Kommissar geht um!
Er wird dich anschau'n
und du weißt warum.
Die Lebenslust bringt dich um."
Alles klar, Herr Kommissar?
Day trader|2.17.09 @ 10:58AM|#
There's some good quality snark on this thread; time to short, the market will correct soon.
|2.17.09 @ 10:59AM|#
Wait, wouldn't that proposal make him Car Commissar or
something?
Dude, it was Gary Numan who liked cars, not Falco. Don't turn
around.
Naga Sadow|2.17.09 @ 11:03AM|#
Domo! You fool! You've opened the thread up Falco songs! You've played right into Episiarch's hands!
|2.17.09 @ 11:03AM|#
ARRRGGHHH NUTRASWEET
[out of sync kung fu movie]
My cut and paste skills. Will never be matched. Ha! Ha! Ha!
[/out of sync kung fu movie]
Taktix®|2.17.09 @ 11:03AM|#
GM getting another 4 billion today. Freaking
great.
But... but... they said the last round was all they needed. You
mean to say that CEOs of goverment supported companies might not
tell the truth when trying to get taxpayer money?
In all seriousness, if these guys were asking for stockholder money
like this, their stock would be... well, where it is now...
|2.17.09 @ 11:08AM|#
"It is by will alone I set my hands in motion. It is by the lotion of sapho that hands acquire speed, the thumbs acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by will alone I set my hands in motion."
cunnivore|2.17.09 @ 11:08AM|#
During June in Duluth, MN, it doesn't get dark until nearly
11:30 pm.
I don't believe that. Duluth is right in the middle of its time
zone, and it's not far enough north to have the midnight sun
phenomenon that occurs in Alaska.
And it always bears mentioning that artificial time-changing
systems that give you extra daylight in the evening also take away
daylight from the morning.
|2.17.09 @ 11:12AM|#
"It is by will alone I set my hands in motion. It is by the
lotion of sapho that hands acquire speed, the thumbs acquire
stains, the stains become a warning. It is by will alone I set my
hands in motion."
Cut that out- you'll go blind!
just a thought|2.17.09 @ 11:12AM|#
Taking away daylight in the morning in summer makes sense, as otherwise the sun would rise at 4:30AM.
Naga Sadow|2.17.09 @ 11:12AM|#
*aimed at Domo*
"I want you to hit me..." He paused. " ...as hard as you can." It
didn't go well. "Motherfucker! You hit me in the EAR!" "Jesus, I'm
sorry..." I legitmately thought I'd fucked it up. As he
rhetorically asked why..."
|2.17.09 @ 11:14AM|#
Celebrity Chimp Goes on Rampage, Is Shot Dead
I've warned you people of the imminent ape uprising and have been
dismissed as a madman. The time of man is coming to an end.
Prepare.
Naga Sadow|2.17.09 @ 11:20AM|#
Whoa! The ape bit the womans hands clean off! Clearly the monkey uprising is upon us.
|2.17.09 @ 11:25AM|#
She's lucky (depending on how loosely you define "luck"); they generally like to rip your balls off, right out of the gate.
cunnivore|2.17.09 @ 11:31AM|#
Taking away daylight in the morning in summer makes sense,
as otherwise the sun would rise at 4:30AM.
Why is that such a bad thing?
I'm sick of our government catering to the night owl lobby. Early
to bed, early to rise POWER!!!!!!!!
|2.17.09 @ 12:12PM|#
I don't believe that. Duluth is right in the middle of its
time zone, and it's not far enough north to have the midnight sun
phenomenon that occurs in Alaska.
That 11:30 may be a slight exaggeration, but I do recall being out
and about after 10:00 in the Duluth region during the summer, and
it not being near full dark.
|2.17.09 @ 12:59PM|#
He is the Monkey violator!
They were never able to prove that in a court of law.
cunnivore|2.17.09 @ 1:04PM|#
According to this site, the latest sunset in Duluth is just past 9:00pm (though dusk may extend a bit longer)
|2.17.09 @ 5:32PM|#
According to this site, the latest sunset in Duluth is just
past 9:00pm (though dusk may extend a bit longer)
The evenings are incredibly long, longer than I had expected.
cuernimus|2.17.09 @ 6:47PM|#
You must have just been constantly looking at the clock while waiting for an appropriate time to go to bed. I can't imagine what someone would be doing in Duluth in the middle of summer, besides huddling together to conserve body warmth.
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