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When Poor People Save
Adam Shepard read Nickel and Dimed and got ticked off at Barbara Ehrenreich's suggestion that the American Dream was dead. So he decided to try an experiment/publicity stunt. He'd write his own book about another way of being poor: starting with nothing and winding up with savings in the bank and prospects for the future. The prose isn't terribly impressive (a fact the author cops to in the intro). But the story is pretty compelling, and rather relevant in these days of declining markets and rapidly increasing savings rates.
I am going to start – almost literally from scratch - with one 8' x 10' tarp, a sleeping bag, an empty gym bag, $25, and the clothes on my back. Via train, I will be dropped at a random place somewhere in the southeastern United States that is not in my home state of North Carolina. I have 365 days to become free of the realities of homelessness and become a “regular” member of society. After one year, for my project to be considered successful, I have to possess an operable automobile, live in a furnished apartment (alone or with a roommate), have $2500 in cash, and, most importantly, I have to be in a position in which I can continue to improve my circumstances by either going to school or starting my own business.
He skipped out after 10 months because of an illness in his family, but by then he had a job, an apartment, a pickup truck, and $5,000 in the bank.
I missed the resulting book, Scratch Beginnings, when it came out a while back, but noticed a mention in an interesting BoingBoing post about life as a Wal-Mart employee recently.
SIV|2.3.09 @ 5:44PM|#
Yeah joe,
'Cause as you and a bunch of the commenters on Boing Boing
point out the huge advantage a business degree gave him as a day
laborer/moving company worker.
*Truck pulls up to break corner, eyeing selection of day laborers
employer yells "Who has a business degree!" over-privledged white
boy jumps in the truck*
robc|2.3.09 @ 5:45PM|#
To make his quest even more challenging, he decided not to
use any of his previous contacts or mention his
education.
He didnt use his degree. He probably used his education, in the
sense of actually using skills learned, but it wasnt like he got
hired to a position requiring a degree.
robc|2.3.09 @ 5:46PM|#
He also made new friends, finding work as a day laborer,
which led to a steady job with a moving company.
There are plenty of non-college graduates with that kind of skill.
Or better.
joe|2.3.09 @ 5:50PM|#
I know plenty of college graduates incapable of getting a
job. :)
Sure, but this guy didn't have a humanities degree.
'Cause as you and a bunch of the commenters on Boing Boing
point out the huge advantage a business degree gave him as a day
laborer/moving company worker. Probably a lot of help in
knowing how to manage your money, and plan ahead.
joe|2.3.09 @ 5:51PM|#
She came from Greece she had a thirst for knowledge
She studied sculpture at Saint Martin's College, that's where I
caught her eye.
She told me that her Dad was loaded
I said in that case I'll have a rum and coke-cola.
She said fine and in thirty seconds time she said, I want to live
like common people
I want to do whatever common people do, I want to sleep with common
people
I want to sleep with common people like you.
Well what else could I do - I said I'll see what I can do.
I took her to a supermarket
I don't know why but I had to start it somewhere, so it started
there.
I said pretend you've got no money, she just laughed and said oh
you're so funny.
I said yeah? Well I can't see anyone else smiling in here.
Are you sure you want to live like common people
You want to see whatever common people see
You want to sleep with common people,
you want to sleep with common people like me.
But she didn't understand, she just smiled and held my hand.
Rent a flat above a shop, cut your hair and get a job.
Smoke some fags and play some pool, pretend you never went to
school.
But still you'll never get it right
'cos when you're laid in bed at night watching roaches climb the
wall
If you call your Dad he could stop it all.
You'll never live like common people
You'll never do what common people do
You'll never fail like common people
You'll never watch your life slide out of view, and dance and drink
and screw
Because there's nothing else to do.
Sing along with the common people, sing along and it might just get
you thru'
Laugh along with the common people
Laugh along even though they're laughing at you and the stupid
things that you do.
Because you think that poor is cool.
I want to live with common people, I want to live with common
people
robc|2.3.09 @ 5:54PM|#
At $2500 per year (his minimum) saved and a 9.7% RoR, that is
$1M after 40 years.
Doing $6000 a year (he had $5k saved after 10 months), you would
only need a 6.3% growth rate.
|2.3.09 @ 5:59PM|#
I've known more than a few people who were less employable after
getting a degree. An inflated sense of entitlement is a serious
burden, especially when combined with an aversion to work one
considers beneath one's station.
Short, short story: I was raised by an unemployed single mother and
orphaned at 13. I'm now an attorney. Care to guess my opinion of
anyone who claims they can't make a buck in this country?
SIV|2.3.09 @ 6:00PM|#
Having worked as a day laborer during and after college the only employment advantage my educational background provided was an ability to score the boss high quality weed on short notice.
|2.3.09 @ 6:01PM|#
Neither Steve Jobs nor Bill Gates completed college.
Thomas Edison did not have a college degree, nor did NIkola
Tesla.
Nor did George Foreman nor Arnold Schwarzenegger.
All these people are successful businessmen.
Most of the millionaires I know did not graduate, although some did
after they went back to school in middle age, after making their
fortune.
A college degree is neither necessary nor sufficient to being a
success in life.
economist|2.3.09 @ 6:02PM|#
With you on that, ProL.
joe,
What was his degree in? Obviously, a degree in something like
engineering would confer useful knowledge that could help him in
the working world, but much of the opportunity to use that
knowledge often depends on some sort of certification that one is
trained in that field (like a degree, which he didn't use in
applications).
economist|2.3.09 @ 6:04PM|#
Plus, joe, this guy wasn't going for "poor chic". He was trying
to show that one can go from being poor to being not poor.
Big difference.
|2.3.09 @ 6:05PM|#
I'm now an attorney.
See what happens to poor orphans?!? It'd be kinder to just harvest
their organs instead.
Via train, I will be dropped at a random place somewhere in the
southeastern United States
His friends should have pranked him and dropped him off in the
Everglades.
Various Captains of the Financ|2.3.09 @ 6:06PM|#
'Cause as you and a bunch of the commenters on Boing Boing point out the huge advantage a business degree gave him as a day laborer/moving company worker.
Probably a lot of help in knowing how to manage your money, and plan ahead.
Sure does!
economist|2.3.09 @ 6:06PM|#
"Probably a lot of help in knowing how to manage your money, and
plan ahead."
joe, 90% of it is common sense. I started saving for college,
applying for scholarships, and comparing possible school loans when
I was 14, largely on my own (it occasionally involved asking my
parents for a ride or the use of their car, but that was about
it).
economist|2.3.09 @ 6:09PM|#
"His friends should have pranked him and dropped him off in the
Everglades."
That reminds me of the time my friends thought it would be funny to
leave me on the side of the road in the middle of when I was
urinating (they let me catch up a mile down the road. We were all
young and stupid back then).
Dello|2.3.09 @ 6:10PM|#
Boston,
"I've known more than a few people who were less employable after
getting a degree. An inflated sense of entitlement is a serious
burden, especially when combined with an aversion to work one
considers beneath one's station."
A friend and I once decided to help the local kids who were on the
verge of dropping out of high school. My friend is a professional
auto body tech, and I'm pretty handy with tools, so we figured that
by creating a free class that introduces the kids to the trades via
showing them how to do car customizing like they see on TV might
just do the trick to keep them in school, then into the
trades.
While every teacher and administrator we contacted LOVED the idea,
the kids weren't excited at all. As one kid put it "I don't like to
get dirty."
I wished him luck, knowing full well that he was likely going to
drop out, and that things would get worse from there.
joe|2.3.09 @ 6:12PM|#
One of the useful things you learn in college is that the
existence of a anecdotal case isn't very good evidence of
anything.
I started saving for college, applying for scholarships, and
comparing possible school loans when I was 14 Where did you
get that idea? Where did you learn that was a responsible,
intelligent thing to do?
economist|2.3.09 @ 6:12PM|#
Dello,
That kid's going to have a tough life. How many jobs require
neither a high school diploma nor getting dirty?
|2.3.09 @ 6:13PM|#
joe,
Knowing how to save your money and plan ahead not only does not
require a college degree and really has nothing to do with a
college degree and pretty much anything you learn in college.
Your initial off the cuff line, "guy who went to college can get a
job" is fairly indefensible. You might want to back off it, before
you start looking foolish.
|2.3.09 @ 6:13PM|#
Educated White Guys -
Is there anything we can't do?
Score with hot left-wing black chicks?
economist|2.3.09 @ 6:14PM|#
joe,
From my parents, who weren't terribly wealthy (not poor either) and
who both came from lower-income backgrounds.
|2.3.09 @ 6:14PM|#
That reminds me of the time my friends thought it would be
funny to leave me on the side of the road in the middle of when I
was urinating
Ahh, the days of teabagging and gorilla masks...
Mac: You put your balls in my mouth while I was sleeping?
Dennis: Yeah, man. Twice.
Mac: That's rape! That is borderline rape!
</i>|2.3.09 @ 6:15PM|#
Well Mom always saved her trick money for the large economy size crack rocks.
economist|2.3.09 @ 6:16PM|#
joe,
On average, I would say that 50% of the advantage a college degree
gives in economic fortunes derives from the perception intelligence
and skill rather than any intelligence or skill it actually
confers. This goes doubly for the humanities.
joe, back off foolish statemen|2.3.09 @ 6:17PM|#
You might want to back off it, before you start looking
foolish.
New here?
economist|2.3.09 @ 6:18PM|#
Episiarch,
I probably had a little too much fun in college with various pranks
and tomfoolery.
I failed to mention the driver in the aforementioned car was
getting revenge on me for one of my prank calling schemes.
|2.3.09 @ 6:19PM|#
The author's point that anyone can get ahead by using
commons sense, working hard, plannning and saving is so stunningly
obvious and true, you wonder how it could possibly be
contentious.
Unfortunately, this notion undermines some of the precious and
vital notions that modern liberals have regarding the downtrodden
and why they are that way. Prepare for a lengthy thread.
College-Educated Snob|2.3.09 @ 6:19PM|#
Well, of course it's easier for us to get jobs, we're more intelligenter!
economist|2.3.09 @ 6:20PM|#
Most of the great fortunes in the U.S. were made by people from modest or poor economic backgrounds.
Barbara Ehrenreich|2.3.09 @ 6:20PM|#
One of the useful things you learn in college is that the
existence of a anecdotal case isn't very good evidence of
anything.
Didn't stop me from writing my book.
|2.3.09 @ 6:21PM|#
economist -
50% of the advantage a college degree gives in economic
fortunes derives from the perception intelligence and
skill
What you are talking about is confidence, which can't be
overestimated. How one gets confidence isn't important - just that
they have it. I got mine from going to college, somebody else might
get it from having a skill, their family, the military or any
number of things.
|2.3.09 @ 6:23PM|#
I failed to mention the driver in the aforementioned car was
getting revenge on me for one of my prank calling
schemes.
Revenge...that's the rub. You want people to know you were the
brilliant joker, but then they know who to go after.
Mac: Hunting is awesome, Dennis!
Dennis: Yeah.
Mac: You get to wear sweet clothes and get wasted all day!
Dennis: Yeah, it's just like our normal lives, except at the end of
it, we get to put our nuts in some dude's mouth.
|2.3.09 @ 6:23PM|#
This isn't just a rich-poor thing. There are subcultures within
our society that push for education or, at least, some form of life
in the merchant class, regardless of ones initial financial
position. For instance, a poor Chinese-American kid is much more
likely to find some way of being in business for himself than a
poor kid from many other American subcultures. Why is that? It
might be worth trying to replicate that sort of ambition than to
deride it as something bourgeois.
Sadly, this kind of insane work ethic and ambition are no longer
necessary aspects of our culture as a whole.
Paul|2.3.09 @ 6:24PM|#
This just in: guy who went to college can get
job.
This just in: guy who didn't go to college can get job, too.
economist|2.3.09 @ 6:26PM|#
"What you are talking about is confidence, which can't be
overestimated."
Are you kdding? I was scared shitless when I went to interview for
jobs after college.
Farmer|2.3.09 @ 6:28PM|#
I went out to higher some day laborers, and naturally the first thing I asked was if they had a college degree.
|2.3.09 @ 6:30PM|#
joe,
If your point is that a lot of people who grow up in straitened
circumstances are often demoralized and hence at a disadvantage,
I'm not sure that that's all that contraversial here.
But if you think that people like Barbara Ehrenreich and you
continually telling them what a bunch of fucking losers they are
helps in any way, I'm fairly sure you'll find a lot of
disagreement.
economist|2.3.09 @ 6:33PM|#
Isaac Bartram,
To be fair, joe thinks that most people are born losers, and only
their advantages in education, upbringing, and connections
determine their future success or failure.
MAX HATS|2.3.09 @ 6:35PM|#
Nickel and Dimed is shit. I was forced to read it in college. Can't imagine how far removed from working society a reader must be to enjoy that book. She frequently makes absolutely insane financial decisions, making her experiment worthless. And her contempt for the working class seeps through every page. The book is basically a test - can a rich middle aged bitch with no marketable skills (and no desire to earn them) and no work ethic survive in the working world? The answer is not surprising.
economist|2.3.09 @ 6:36PM|#
MAX HATS,
Did you just say something that I agree with? First NM, and then
you? Perhaps I'm hallucinating. I should get a CT scan.
And Barbara Ehrenreich is a bitch.
MNG|2.3.09 @ 6:38PM|#
"almost literally from scratch"
That's a crock of crap-o-la right there. As joe pointed out having
a college education is hardly scratch (it's worth quite a lot in
fact, look at tuition lately). That's human capital. And then there
are all the things like social and cultural capital which some
people get from their parents and others don't.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_capital
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_capital
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_capital
This kills me about the hard core rugged individualist libertarians
here, they always say "well I didn't have any advantages and look
where I got, so stop complaining." But social scientists (and don't
look but now that includes economists) have been talking about how
hugely important advantages in these areas are for a loooong
time.
Not that Nickel and Dimed isn't overdone itself.
And what was up with quitting because of a family illness? Dude,
that's one of the major reasons why families fall into poverty from
what I hear.
MNG|2.3.09 @ 6:42PM|#
Having your parents and friends teach you self-control, how to
use proper English, give you confidence building experiences like
enrolling you in little league and taking you to practice, having
books in the house and encouraging the reading of them, etc., all
convey huge, huge advantages.
And since kids don't get to pick their parents this gives many
people advantages out of the sheerest chance.
|2.3.09 @ 6:47PM|#
Where did you get that idea? Where did you learn that was a
responsible, intelligent thing to do?
All it takes to know that saving your money and being responsible
is a *good idea* is to look at the worth around you and not act
like a complete fucking retard.
|2.3.09 @ 6:48PM|#
NPR did a segment recently on delayed gratification in children.
They put a 5-year-old in a room with a researcher and gave the kid
a marshmallow. The researcher tells the kid he has to leave, and if
he gets back and the kid hasn't eaten the marshmallow yet, he can
have another. Many kids couldn't wait 10 seconds, but others could
sit it out for 20 minutes and then put the 2nd reward marshmallow
in their pockets to eat later. Fast forward 30 years and the
researchers interview the same kids. Turns out that the kids who
were good at delayed gratification are the most financially
successful ones today.
My sister was a halloween candy hoarder. I figure I ruined her
ability to delay gratification when I rifled her stuff, found her
stash, and ate the whole thing. That's what big brothers are
for.
economist|2.3.09 @ 6:50PM|#
"it's worth quite a lot in fact, look at tuition lately"
Now, MNG, you aren't confusing price and true value, are you?
economist|2.3.09 @ 6:52PM|#
Granted, prices usually reflect value, but given the amount of demand-side subsidy that goes into the higher education system, as well as rather inefficient practices, I tend to doubt whether the price of college tuition reflects its true value.
economist|2.3.09 @ 6:53PM|#
For one thing, most accreditation standards for colleges look at inputs (like professor to student ratios) rather than outputs (like whether or not their graduates are particularly skilled at whatever they majored in).
MNG|2.3.09 @ 7:01PM|#
You can think of its worth by looking at how much income and wealth it tends to add to the average person who gets one compared to the average person who does not.
MNG|2.3.09 @ 7:02PM|#
"not act like a complete fucking retard"
A lot of people have as role models growing up complete fucking
retards, or rather people with insane values and behaviors.
MNG|2.3.09 @ 7:05PM|#
economist
Granted your points are good ones...It's hard to figure out how
good at their majors graduates are. You could have some kind of
standardized tests, but there are problems there. You could track
them down after they graduate and find out how they are doing, but
basically what you'll find there is that they are doing "lots
better" than people who don't have a college degree and that often
they are not even working in the field of their major (which kind
of shows that some of the most important things you learn in
college has nothing to do with what goes on in the classrooms). And
demand side subsidies and their effect on college prices is
certainly got something to it.
Paul|2.3.09 @ 7:09PM|#
The researcher tells the kid he has to leave, and if he gets
back and the kid hasn't eaten the marshmallow yet, he can have
another.
Hmm, so my daughter will be wealthy enough to take care of me in
the twilight years.
brag
My kid is awesome at delayed gratification. I mean really, she can
do no wrong.
/brag
|2.3.09 @ 7:09PM|#
A lot of people have as role models growing up complete
fucking retards, or rather people with insane values and
behaviors.
Right, and to ape their behavior and thereby achieve the same
results, is to *also* act like a complete fucking retard.
|2.3.09 @ 7:10PM|#
Another criticism of Ehrenreich is that she didn't stick around
at any job and try to work her way up.
Regarding college degrees, having one can be a negative for a lot
of low-end jobs. Employers often want someone who's going to stick
around, and not leave for something better.
I was skipped over for promotion from dishwasher to fry cook in a
summer restaurant job between high school and college, and that's
what they told me. They admitted I'd have been better at it, but
knew this wasn't a career for me.
I did have some satisfaction watching the guy who did get the
promotion. It took him the entire first day to learn how to use
tongs to get fish out of the deep fryer without dipping his thumb
in the hot oil. He did it at least four times. By the end of the
day his thumb looked like a sweet potato.
MNG|2.3.09 @ 7:12PM|#
Probably the most important thing you could possibly teach your
kid is self control (delayed gratification, anti-impuslive
tendencies).
And a crap load of parents are really, really terrible at that.
MNG|2.3.09 @ 7:13PM|#
Graphite
We are talking about KIDS and the surrounding ADULTS in their life.
Kids tend to ape these people, whether they are complete fucking
retards or not. Is this amazing to you?
I mean, are you a complete fucking retard?
The Bearded Hobbit|2.3.09 @ 7:14PM|#
Read the article but haven't read the book. One question; did he
have a driving license or other "official" ID (he did mention that
he had an emergency credit card)? It seems like that would make a
big difference.
And I know that it is probably blasphemy on this forum to mention
it, but I saw many, many young people go from nothing to a future
by joining the Armed Forces.
.. "USAF" Hobbit
|2.3.09 @ 7:14PM|#
So, what helps the poor the most, being like Barbara Ehrenreich, joe and MNG and harping on what a bunch of fucking losers you think they are, or taking a different approach?
|2.3.09 @ 7:19PM|#
We are talking about KIDS and the surrounding ADULTS in
their life. Kids tend to ape these people, whether they are
complete fucking retards or not. Is this amazing to you?
When anyone, a kid or not, observes two people, one of whom is an
unemployed loser, and the other a successful professional, and
chooses to follow the example of the former rather than the latter,
yes, that is amazing to me.
There's no such thing as a kid who grows up without *any*
successful examples. What it takes to succeed in this country is
quite clear to everyone with eyes to see. At some point people are
accountable for the role models they choose and the paths they
follow.
MNG|2.3.09 @ 7:22PM|#
Isaac
You're missing me and joe's point.
The problem is that for a lot of people "taking a different
approach" is nigh impossible because they are really, really
lacking in some basic things that many of us get from our families
and this makes them simply unable to do basic things like control
their impulses, focus, delay gratification, plan into the extended
future, speak in semi-correct English, realize the importance of
certain things, make correct causal connections about everyday
things, etc.
Sitting around preaching to such people to "take a different
approach" is a lot like singing to deaf people.
MNG|2.3.09 @ 7:25PM|#
Holy shit Graphite, I think you may in fact be retarded.
How in the world is a 5 year old going to be able to reliably tell
who is a loser in their life and who is a success? How about a 2
year old? How about an infant?
Because a lot of the hard wiring for future capabilities has
already been done before two.
You act like a fucking infant is supposed to, when it is learning
speech, think to itself "fuck, my mom is an unemployed loser, I'm
not going to pick up her speech patterns and accent."
Jesus!
MNG|2.3.09 @ 7:27PM|#
When I was five I thought my loser older cousin was the coolest
guy in the world because he could fart really, really loud, and I
thought my hard working and rich ass uncle was a boring
sissy.
I also wanted to a "space-man" as a future career, or
super-hero.
I mean, have you run into these things called "children?"
MNG|2.3.09 @ 7:29PM|#
As the study cited above suggests, by five years old those kids
either had been taught self control, or they had not. And it had a
big effect on their future.
And it was not because of their "choice" of who they were going to
model themselves after! Bwahaha!
Neu Mejican|2.3.09 @ 7:29PM|#
The main advantage that the college degree would have given this
guy was an ability to talk the language of those who are likely to
hire him, promote him, etc...
Subtle social norms make a bigger difference than people
appreciate.
|2.3.09 @ 7:36PM|#
Holy shit Graphite, I think you may in fact be
retarded.
At least I'm not arguing that all our abilities for impulse control
and delayed gratification have to be acquired by the age of
five.
I mean, aside from an egregious case like a child being turned into
something like "Nell" and shielded from the world by his parents,
pretty much everyone naturally develops the ability to reason
inductively and perceive cause and effect, which is all we're
talking about here.
If things like "controlling their impulses, focus, delay
gratification, plan into the extended future, speak in semi-correct
English, realize the importance of certain things, make correct
causal connections about everyday things, etc." are all hard-wired
into us by our parents, it's truly remarkable that human beings
ever figured out how to do any of these things at all.
economist|2.3.09 @ 7:39PM|#
"And then there are all the things like social and cultural
capital which some people get from their parents and others
don't."
No argument there. I'll admit, if I had been raised by profligate
criminals, I might not be the upstanding and responsible *snark*
citizen I am today.
Of course, what, if anything, could government policy affect
positively in this case. Even if I thought the government should
try to "change the culture", it would be unlikely to
work,especially when any criticism of certain cultures either gets
you called "a damned Yankee troublemaker" or a racist, depending on
which culture, exactly, you are criticizing.
economist|2.3.09 @ 7:41PM|#
Uh, graphite, I'm pretty sure the "semi-correct English" thing does in fact have something to do with upbringing.
MNG|2.3.09 @ 7:42PM|#
If you ever want to know just how incredibly important and
valuable these little things done within families are, and if you
want to know how everybody actually agrees with me when it comes to
their lives, just imagine, how much money would someone have to
give you to not do things with your kid like read to her, make sure
she eats right, restrict the amount of food she eats and when she
can eat it, go to the doctor for vaccinations and check-ups
regularly, restrict the amount and the content of television they
can view, supervise the child most of the time, correct it when it
does impulsive things, buy books fo her, take her to the library,
tell her she is smart and such.
I mean, if it's just a matter of someone choosing to follow the
good role models on tv and anybody with any sense can do that, then
you should be willing to not do these things for a very low price,
right?
But no sane person would do this for almost any amount of money.
Because those little things have a tremondous effect on how your
kid turns out.
Oh my God, not everything happens with little wholly autonomous
reasoning monistic human beings rationally choosing the most
utlitarian choice among those available to them at every step and
meaning that everyone is simply a sum of their own choices and
efforts, what a shock!
Brett Stevens|2.3.09 @ 7:44PM|#
I am no big fan of capitalism, but...
It's easy as hell without a college degree to make a good living in
this country.
All you have to do is be responsible, show up, and apply
yourself.
Places like Wal-Mart take people who got off on the wrong foot and
give them a way to move up.
Yeah, we all dislike the appearance of the corporate state... but
what gives it its power is the incompetence of most people. Of
course they complain -- what else are they going to do, admit their
own fault in the matter?
We like to think there are flawless workers versus soulless
corporations, but reality is much more complex, starting with the
fact that anyone who even marginally has their act together is
going to do well in the USA.
MNG|2.3.09 @ 7:46PM|#
economist
That's a great question, and most of the time I think "not much."
In fact, that is kind of what Charles Murray has said at times: the
reason why these government programs are bogus is that if you have
a kid raised in this environment, no amount of later government
programs is going to help.
And there are tons of kids, like in the inner city, who are raised
nearly as badly as Nell was. Elijah Anderson's "Code of the
Streets" is a good ethnography on such places. A kid like that,
unless they luck out and get a good and unusually influential uncle
or something, really has no chance.
economist|2.3.09 @ 7:48PM|#
It's probably a good thing I don't have kids. I'd probably teach
them to refer to ordinary objects with variations on curse
words.
"Junior, the proper way to greet someone is to say 'Hey
f***tard!'"
MNG|2.3.09 @ 7:49PM|#
"All you have to do is be responsible, show up, and apply
yourself."
Holy shit, it is deafness isn't it?
Look, again: it's not easy as shit for a lot of people to be
responsible, show up and apply yourself. They were never introduced
to that. Their moms ignored them while they smoked crack and
entertained their ever changing boyfriends. The boyfriend probably
abused them. From toddler age on they ran free in the neighborhood.
They were fed irregularly and badly. They were never put on a
schedule (other than that their moms just happened to periodically
come down from whatever high they were on and maybe woke the kid to
change their long soiled diaper). Etc.
MNG|2.3.09 @ 7:52PM|#
I agree, you're never going to "change the culture" in these
places.
We can provide help for those who for whatever reason have some
good sense, and many government programs do that. But many are
throwing money at a problem that they will never touch (like how
Americorps pays inner-city kids to do service work, many are so
high or violent that they have to be sent home within hours).
And while it may sound bad, the criminal justice system will deal
with many of the rest...
Neu Mejican|2.3.09 @ 7:53PM|#
economist,
Of course, what, if anything, could government policy affect
positively in this case. Even if I thought the government should
try to "change the culture", it would be unlikely to
work,especially when any criticism of certain cultures either gets
you called "a damned Yankee troublemaker" or a racist, depending on
which culture, exactly, you are criticizing.
The public educational system functions in large part as a
mechanism for forming a shared culture. It is an imperfect tool,
but when people talk about the importance of an education, it is
not really about the reading and rithmatic as much as it is about
access to this shared culture.
This is one of the reasons segregated schools are problematic, they
do not provide access to the shared culture that is so essential to
success.
MNG|2.3.09 @ 7:56PM|#
Believe it or not, I'm a BIG fan of capitalism.
Hell, even Marx had to wonder at the amazing ability of capitalism
to change the world in never before heard of ways in mere decades.
The productive capacity, the smashing of the locked roles and
castes of "rural idiocy", the moving of mass goods and services
from around the world to diversity the possible commodities one can
choose from to make their life better...Capitalism is the closest
thing this athiest has seen to a frigging miracle.
Mike Farmer|2.3.09 @ 8:04PM|#
In 1983 I was coming off of 15 years of wasted living, no degree, no social skills and broke. I decided to change my life and got a job as a nurse's aid making minimum wage in a private speciality hospital dealing with alcoholism and drug addiction. I was married and we had one child. I worked my way up, went to college and in 5 years I was a Clinical Director managing 8 therapists, all with Master's degrees. I'm just saying...that doesn't mean anyone can accomplish anything they want to accomplish by just buckling down -- but it does mean that hard work and desire can make a big difference. Without the effort it's pretty much certain little will change.
Kolohe|2.3.09 @ 8:10PM|#
Neu Mej-
Just for the sake of being contrarian-
Public education has always been, and still is to a large exent,
atomized so the only 'culture' that is shared is at a community
level.
And from one prespective the segregated schools actually helped
with 'shared culture' as high achieving blacks (more motivated? I'm
likely not using the right words, but you know what I'm trying to
say) were forced to stay in the same schools as other african
americans. When they were allowed to go to whatever schools they
wanted, the high achievers left both literally and figuratively,
everyone else behind.
With a less racial (but possibly as classist) slant, you see the
same thing with 'tracking' in public schools. There's a conflict
with keeping ability groups together to optimize teaching
effectiveness and efficiency while avoiding 'ghettoizing' the
middle and the low and possibly (likely?) reinforcing bad
behaviors. This conflict is also the reason why public schools are
generally good for very bright kids, (and paradoxically for kids
that need a lot of help, but of an easily identifable type), but
generally fail the middle and esp the low middle.
Kolohe|2.3.09 @ 8:16PM|#
You know what really shared the culture? WW2. I'm convinced that an underrecognized feature was that throwing a bunch of men from diverse parts of the country into the same group and in adverse circumstances put to bed permantly a critical mass of regionalism that in turn led to a lot of the legal and cultural changes of the post ww2 era.
|2.3.09 @ 8:29PM|#
A kid like that, unless they luck out and get a good and unusually influential uncle or something, really has no chance.
I for the most part agree with you up until this point. That kid
does have a chance. Maybe not nearly as good a one as
someone else, but human behavior is not all environmentally
determined. Some of it is genetic, some of it is blind luck (you
have no idea what the right thing to do is so you guess and maybe
you guess right and maybe you guess wrong) and some of it is simple
timing.
I know three siblings: one with a high paying corporate job, one
with a low paying job and a litter of kids and one who was dead of
a Heroin overdose at 32. Same environment, same parents, different
results.
As far as public policy goes, government is no better (almost
certainly worse) at dealing with the fickleness of fate than
individuals are.
|2.3.09 @ 8:36PM|#
And I know that it is probably blasphemy on this forum to
mention it, but I saw many, many young people go from nothing to a
future by joining the Armed Forces.
Fopr multiple reasons I won't go into, I daresay that the military
is the most successful social program for moving children of
poverty into the middle class. I was, with a roomate, living a
solid middle class life, apartment, auto, spending money and some
pretty damned decent weed after a mere four years in the navy.* I
wasn't even very good at deferred gratification. I partied my ass
off. Of course you do have to go to work every day, even when you
don't feel like it. You do have to do what the boss says, even if
it's stupid and he's an asswipe. You do have to study on your own
for promotion exams, even though it's boring as hell.
Basically, the assertation that moving out of poverty requires more
than hard work and discipline is, for the vast majority of folks,
complete and utter bullshit. If you wish to discuss the psychology
of lifetime poverty inducing behavior, we can. The lack of a
sheepskin does not factor into that at all.
* Also had visited ~10 countries and lived in four different
states.
justinslot|2.3.09 @ 8:43PM|#
The Shatner version of "Common People" really is way better than the Pulp version, though. Either way it wins this thread.
|2.3.09 @ 9:13PM|#
As joe pointed out having a college education is hardly
scratch (it's worth quite a lot in fact, look at tuition
lately).
Hold on there. It does not follow that because you pay a high price
for some service, that it is in fact worth quite a lot. I've
certainly met plenty of idiots with degrees in my time.
-jcr
robc|2.3.09 @ 9:40PM|#
it's not easy as shit for a lot of people to be responsible,
show up and apply yourself.
My problem is the use of the word "lot". Its a tiny fucking
percentage of Americans.
Really, what percentage of kids have crack-whore moms?
And, has already been mentioned, that is what the military is for.
We probably need more of the judges pushing juvies towards a
military career.
Mark|2.3.09 @ 10:53PM|#
While I wouldn't disagree with the fact that a college degree can confer huge socio-economic advantages on the holder of the degree, I think how the degree itself is leveraged counts for a lot. And if you can't leverage it properly it ain't worth the paper it's printed on. While it's hard to rise up from the bottom, it's all too easy to sink very quickly to the bottom.
Kolohe|2.3.09 @ 11:52PM|#
And, has already been mentioned, that is what the military
is for. We probably need more of the judges pushing juvies towards
a military career.
just a side comment on this; like any other rehab program, it only
works if you want it to. Fundamentally, even with all the external
structure and pressure, you still have to take the initiative to
help yourself. If your a dirtbag before, *and* a dirtbag during,
you're going to still be a dirtbag afterwards.
JB|2.4.09 @ 12:51AM|#
Joe and MNG's vaginas hurt when they think about poor
people.
They can't accept that some people have more will than others. They
somehow want to magically legislate this level of will. It does
explain their love of high taxes...they want to sap everyone's will
by beating them into submission with the use of force.
Liberals are all about equality...making everyone equally
miserable. The only equality is death.
Naga Sadow|2.4.09 @ 1:04AM|#
JB,
Relax, bro. People always forget that society is heirarchal. There
is ALWAYS gonna be a top and a bottom. People used in the context
of dirty hippie liberals of course. :)
Sean Healy|2.4.09 @ 6:50AM|#
The fact that Ehrenreich shared all of Shepard's advantages apart from gender has bizarrely gone unmentioned in this thread. For those who have read both books (I've only read Ehrenreich), what would you say was the key determinant driving their respective outcomes? Why couldn't Ehrenreich make it in the nickel and dime end of the economy while Shepard could?
MNG|2.4.09 @ 8:01AM|#
"MNG, it might behoove you to read the arguments in the orginal
post before posting a response to it."
Yeah JB, that's why I basically said there is nothing the
government can do for this underclass other than lock them up. I
mean, you can read right? Then use the thing on the right hand side
and scroll up and do so.
Are you retarded or something?
Zubon|2.4.09 @ 8:05AM|#
Sean, that was addressed. Ehrenreich set out to fail, while he set out to succeed. She job-hopped instead of trying to move up from the bottom. You could have stopped reading before her first anecdote: she started by getting her own apartment in Key West.
KT|2.4.09 @ 8:19AM|#
Well, I guess the plural of anecdote is data. And I guess all those lawsuits about unpaid hours and breaks not given were just bullshit.
|2.4.09 @ 8:28AM|#
MNG, if these poor people have no chance because of the environment in which they are raised, why help them at all? Don't you have conflicting theories? I mean they are helpless because they emulate their worthless parents to age 5, so how can the government helping them ever provide a benefit?
Abdul|2.4.09 @ 9:19AM|#
what would you say was the key determinant driving their
respective outcomes? Why couldn't Ehrenreich make it in the nickel
and dime end of the economy while Shepard could?
Gender is a huge advantage in the unskilled labor market. A healthy
young man has the muscle to dig ditches, haul stone, move
furniture, etc. A woman doesn't. A strong back therefore can get
you a jump on the minimum wage cashier jockey jobs.
To be fair, Eherenrich alluded to her own advantages in having
proper English. Whenever she applied for a low-paying backstage job
(like hotel maid), she was usually shunted off to a relatively
higher-paying on-stage job like waitressing while hispanic women
got the maid jobs. I think there are some studies, and plenty of
anecdotal evidence, that female wait staff get better tips even if
you control for the attractiveness of the female.
Another thing Eherenrich referenced was that even when she was able
to maintain a status quo, she had almost no margin for error. While
I admire what Adam Shepard did, and subscribe more to his world
view than to Eherenrich's, one has to acknowledge that if he
suffered even a minor setback (like strained back) in the
beginning, his project would likely have failed.
|2.4.09 @ 9:23AM|#
Assuming they both had two healthy kidneys, I don't see how either could not make it.
|2.4.09 @ 9:39AM|#
MNG, at what age did you figure out that hard work is more
likely than sloth and instant gratification to lead to long-term
success? You made the point that the age isn't 5. That's a good
start. Is it 12 or 15? 20? 30? Do you credit personal
responsibility for success or blame lack of "good parents" for
failure? Or is it, like, both dude? Is there a certain age where
having undisciplined hippie, alcoholic, or left-wing parents is no
longer an excuse?
I believe "kids" know they're fucking up when they're fucking up. I
did. Eventually, maybe as adults, they either get their shit
together or they don't. They may get it half together, like me. My
relative success/failure has little to do with how well or poorly
my parents served as good role models - same thing for the
stereotypical minister's son. It is the behavior I am engaging in
right now as an adult that determines my future. (right now I
should be doing something else - damned divorced parents screwed me
up...)
Can Tom Daschle's tax "mistakes" be traced back to a rough
childhood? No dad, and mom blows dudes in the alley? He wasn't
taught right from wrong?
Have any thoughts on EGB's post:
Short, short story: I was raised by an unemployed single mother
and orphaned at 13. I'm now an attorney. Care to guess my opinion
of anyone who claims they can't make a buck in this
country?
Reinmoose|2.4.09 @ 9:41AM|#
I read 90% of the comments on this thread, and I just have a few
comments.
1. I also had to read Nickel and Dimed and it was painful to do so.
Ehrenreich had no concept of what was required to get a leg up - no
concept of savings, no concept of thrift... I wanted to quit
reading when she said that she started picking up lunch at
Wendy's in her car because she was
"tired" and didn't feel like making lunch. WTF?
2. She seemed to make the false assumption that every job out there
should be able to provide a person a reasonable living. Working as
a hotel maid in Florida? "Why can't I make enough to own my car,
eat out, and have my own apartment! The system is rigged!!!" In
this way, the two books are not the same in approach. Ehrenreich
took a single job and "tried" to make it in that job in a couple of
months, and Shepard (as I understand it) gave himself full
flexibility to do whatever job he needed to in order to get the
results. One was process-oriented and the other was
results-oriented. Anybody question why the process-oriented
approach failed?
3. Ehrenreich took off time from her experiment to go to trendy
restaurants with her friends.
4. One must recognize that this young man who wrote the opposing
book was healthy (likely - I have not read the book, I assume based
on his age). This does not mean that if he were less healthy it
would have been impossible, but probably harder.
|2.4.09 @ 10:40AM|#
Short, short story: I was raised by an unemployed single
mother and orphaned at 13.
Not quite as long a journey, but my father was also raised by an
unemployed single mother, who did have the additional handicap of
being ethnically Mexican. Her sister helped support them.
He wound up with an engineering degree, worked in management for a
large petrochemical company, and retired at age 52 with a couple
million in the bank. He credits the Marine Corp with teaching him
many of the life skills he needed.
If you more data-y data, then look at the longitudinal studies of
wealth and income. This is still a remarkably mobile society, even
from the bottom ranks presumably handicapped with bad
culture/upbringing.
Picador|2.4.09 @ 10:46AM|#
Thwe CS Monitor article mentions that the kid relied on homeless shelters and food stamps to get on his feet. If this is Reason's roundabout way of finally admitting that an extensive social welfare system is essential to protecting the American Dream, then I applaud them on their humility.
robc|2.4.09 @ 11:36AM|#
Picador,
Homeless shelters may or may not be part of a social welfare system
(as it is usually meant). Many (most?) of them are privately
funded.
|2.4.09 @ 12:21PM|#
I was raised by one mentally abusive parent and another
unemployed one.
We (5 kids) ate powdered milk and fried baloney, and stole the
condiments from the cafeteria during our spare time. (Nothing like
pure sugar, ketchup, and mayonaise for a healthy diet!) Mostly,
during the day we ran around with no supervision because we had to
escape from our insane mother.
I went to an Ivy League university and am currently working on a
PhD in engineering. I don't own my own home, but I do have enough
in the bank for a down payment once I finish grad school.
Oh, and I worked on the International Space Station program.
|2.4.09 @ 12:26PM|#
MNG--
Granted, some people are at a disadvantage from day one, whether
because they had shitty parents, they're unhealthy, whatever.
I understand that. It's unfortunate.
But here's the question: What am I (or anyone else) supposed to do
about it? How are we supposed to account for those disadvantages to
make them equal with everyone else? Should corporations be forced
to pay living wages to people who can't or won't do enough to
deserve those wages?
|2.4.09 @ 12:39PM|#
MNG, et. al.
Actually my crazy unsupervised upbringing was probably a
significant contributor to my success. I was indepdendent from an
early age. I CHOSE (was not encouraged) to get a paper route so
that I would have spending money. I would collect bottles and cans
to exchange them for the refund. I would walk around town by
myself, and knew the bus schedules and how to use them. Often, I'd
go to the library because it was a free source of entertainement.
(Movies and arcades cost money!)
The kids who grow up in upper-middle-class suburban homes are at a
disadvantage because they get used to living on credit cards and
having a car, so they never learn how to take care of themselves.
The never learn how to manage their finances or to plan out how to
save up for a car or a house. They never learn the real value of
money. Consequently many of them end up in heavy credit card debt.
It's the children of the middle-class who are generally the poorest
by my observation. they might have a college degree in some
humanities discipline, but they have $90K in credit card debt and
are working as a barrista, while taking out their angst by
complaining about the capitalist system.
|2.4.09 @ 1:15PM|#
Someone once said on a previous H&R thread that poverty is a
lifestyle choice.
Even if the kids have bad role models while growing up, they do
eventually grow up and if they no longer want to be poor, the
answer should be pretty obvious.
|2.4.09 @ 1:54PM|#
If you're the sort of person who gets a payday advance because you ran out of Bud Light mid-week, you're choosing to be perpetually broke.
|2.4.09 @ 2:11PM|#
This is absurd. I have no doubt that I could do the same
experiment as him and get a six-figure income in a technology field
within a year, similarly avoiding mentioning any education or
experience. Does that mean he's shiftless compared to me?
All he proved is that education and experience provides actual
skills that are valuable for earning money, and that it is possible
to use these skills to succeed, even if you hide the origin of
these skills from those around you. yawn.
|2.4.09 @ 3:36PM|#
All he proved is that education and experience provides
actual skills that are valuable for earning money, and that it is
possible to use these skills to succeed, even if you hide the
origin of these skills from those around you. yawn.
Um. yeah. That's why we keep telling people that you CAN make it if
you apply yourself, get an education, and learn some skills.
Yawn.
WTF? What about the people who don't WANT to learn any skills!!?
What if they are too STUPID to learn them!!? What about THEM,
huh????
Won't somebody think of the lazy morons!!!???
Xanthippas|2.4.09 @ 4:37PM|#
Well, this is all very interesting, but whereas the story of "Nickel and Dimed" is shared by millions, I'm not sure how many Americans can plausibly claim to have shared this gentleman's experience. Or be capable of replicating it, for that matter.
economist|2.5.09 @ 1:59PM|#
Xanthippas,
"Shared by millions?" Please. This gentleman's story is shared by
numerous people I know. Sans education advantage. "Nickel and
Dimed", on the other hand, is an experience shared mostly by
spoiled little shits whose parents finally kicked them out and told
them to get a job.
|2.5.09 @ 11:09PM|#
He skipped out after 10 months because of an illness in his
family, but by then he had a job, an apartment, a pickup truck, and
$5,000 in the bank.
Real poor people can't skip out when they have an illness in the
family. That's the kind of thing that can take a big chunk out of
your $5,000 in the bank, such that you can't pay your rent or the
payments on your pickup truck.
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