Reason Magazine
- reason.com
- reason.tv
- reason.org
- Donate
- Site Search:
Reason on Facebook
Reason on Twitter
Reason on YouTube
Reason RSSGet Reason E-mail Updates!
Manage your Reason e-mail list subscriptionsadvertisements
Well, He Had Ignored the Unspoken Warning
Last
week a British inquest jury refused
to exonerate the police who killed Jean Charles de
Menezes, a 27-year-old Brazilian electrician mistaken for a
terrorist, on a London subway train in 2005. Sir Michael Wright,
the coroner overseeing the inquest, had instructed the jurors that
the evidence did not support a finding that the shooting was
unlawful, so the most they could do was issue an "open" verdict,
meaning they could not reach a firm conclusion about the
circumstances of De Menezes' death. But they rejected key elements
of the government's case backing the police:
They concluded that one of the two officers who shot Mr. de Menezes had not shouted "armed police," as they testified, when they stormed the stationary subway car where Mr. de Menezes was sitting. A total of 17 civilian passengers on the train testified they heard no such warning before the officers fired.
The account of the two armed police officers, identified in court only by their code names, Charlie 2 and Charlie 12, was that the warning was ignored by Mr. de Menezes, who they said had stood up and walked toward them with his arms and hands in a position "consistent with someone who may be about to detonate a bomb hidden on their person or in a belt." They said his actions left them with no option, consistent with police procedures, but to shoot Mr. de Menezes in the head.
The jurors, in their answers to the judges' questions, said they had concluded that Mr. de Menezes had stood up, but that he had not moved toward the firearms officers, a finding that also tallied with the testimony of other passengers aboard the train.
Police shot De Menezes seven times in the head after following him as he left home for work in the morning, having mistaken him for a man suspected of trying to bomb a subway station. The jury faulted police for using fuzzy images to identify the suspect instead of the high-quality photographs in his immigration file and for failing to stop De Menezes before he entered the train.
Naga Sadow|12.17.08 @ 1:39PM|#
Hmmmm . . . now I'm wonderin' if they'll try to charge em' with murder or manslaughter.
Lefiti|12.17.08 @ 1:40PM|#
A private police force would save a lot of time, at least for the richest and most powerful.
Elemenope|12.17.08 @ 1:45PM|#
Wait. They shot him how many times in the head?! The guy was Brazilian, not a Terminator.
Naga Sadow|12.17.08 @ 1:48PM|#
Elemenope,
It's a "need to know" type situation. Skynet is funding Brazillian
terrorists to further its goals. Their jiu jitsu is now in league
with the machines.
cunnivore|12.17.08 @ 1:48PM|#
Oh my my, this is full of pissing off material.
the warning was ignored by Mr. de Menezes, who they said had
stood up and walked toward them
If you run away, we have to shoot you.
If you walk towards us, we have to shoot you.
with his arms and hands in a position "consistent with someone
who may be about to detonate a bomb hidden on their person or in a
belt."
Whatever position he had is hands in, it's obvious from this case
that it's also consistent with someone who doesn't have a bomb.
Maybe the Special Forces should publish a booklet detailing what
arm and hand positions to avoid if you prefer not to be shot in the
head by police.
Naga Sadow|12.17.08 @ 1:50PM|#
Elemenope,
Also, 7 times? Clearly London LEO's are crack shots. In the news
here, it's always "Police traded shots with perpetrators at point
blank range. No one was injured."
|12.17.08 @ 1:52PM|#
It's good to know that juries in Britain don't let the cops get
away with anything, unlike here.
Wait. They shot him how many times in the head?! The guy was
Brazilian, not a Terminator.
Dude, the 888's are pretty advanced. And we still don't know what
the hell Cameron is.
|12.17.08 @ 1:52PM|#
I have a announcement, after years of practice I have given up
trying to give myself head.
I have now opted to have my lower ribs removed, this should allow
me to finally please myself.
This unfortunately will mean I will be far to busy to leave very
many post.
cunnivore|12.17.08 @ 1:52PM|#
The insanity of this case is that, essentially, once this guy
walked out the door of his apartment, he was doomed. There was
literally nothing he could have done to avoid being shot in the
head. All the after the fact justifications the Brits have come up
with could have applied equally if de Menezes had done the opposite
of everything he did.
All I can say is, thank God I don't look like an Arab. (no offense
to Arabs, of course)
Elemenope|12.17.08 @ 1:56PM|#
Dude, the 888's are pretty advanced. And we still don't know
what the hell Cameron is.
Fucking A. That show is getting evenly better, which I sort of
expected but it is still nice to see.
Also, I found this little bit of reasoning to be interesting:
"Do you know why human beings' lives are valuable?"
- Because so few of them are alive compared to the number that are
dead?
|12.17.08 @ 1:56PM|#
Sir Michael Wright, the coroner overseeing the inquest, had
instructed the jurors that the evidence did not support a finding
that the shooting was unlawful
Want's the point of having a jury if a coroner has already decided?
It's good to know you can shoot an unarmed innocent man in the head
seven times and not break any laws in Britain.
Naga Sadow|12.17.08 @ 1:56PM|#
cunnivore,
In the law enforcement scheme of things, white is the correct
color.
Zeb|12.17.08 @ 1:57PM|#
If they thought that he was a suicide bomber, then probably any action he made could be considered consistent with someone about to set off a bomb.
Elemenope|12.17.08 @ 1:58PM|#
Also, 7 times? Clearly London LEO's are crack shots. In the
news here, it's always "Police traded shots with perpetrators at
point blank range. No one was injured."
That was about my reaction. Either that seven is a very small
number in a larger hail of bullets, or they need to export their
target training program fucking pronto.
|12.17.08 @ 2:00PM|#
In the news here, it's always "Police traded shots with
perpetrators at point blank range. No one was injured."
Naga, did you ever see one of the gun battles on Police
Squad? It turns out they weren't so humorously off base after
all.
Because so few of them are alive compared to the number that
are dead?
This has to be some kind of foreshadowing of future Skynet logic
when it decides to do everyone in. The surviving humans will be so
much more valuable!
Naga Sadow|12.17.08 @ 2:00PM|#
Christ on a stick!!! No!!! Thugs with bad aim are better than thugs with good aim!
|12.17.08 @ 2:02PM|#
Either that seven is a very small number in a larger hail of
bullets, or they need to export their target training program
fucking pronto.
My guess is they are instructed to unload a full mag into the
target's head. Remember, this is their procedure for stopping
someone who may be about to detonate a bomb. The person needs to be
dead as fast as possible. Seven shots to the head pretty much
guarantee that. One does not.
sage|12.17.08 @ 2:04PM|#
They shot him how many times in the head?! The guy was
Brazilian, not a Terminator.
Maybe they thought he had a Gracie Black belt in Ju Jitsu. Never
count those guys out. They could be trying to cuff him and stuff
him and all of a sudden they're in a triangle choke about to get
put to sleep. So you can't be too careful with those
Brazilians.
Naga Sadow|12.17.08 @ 2:05PM|#
Episiarch,
I don't remember Police Squad itself but I do remember Norberg with
that fucking cannon on the roof in "The Smell of Fear".
"Hector Savage: I want a car out front, something fun, a Porsche,
then I want a plane ticket to Jamaica... And I want a nice hotel,
no touristy place... Something really indicative of the people and
their culture.
Ed Hocken: Can't do that, Savage! We're calling your bluff. Now put
your hands on top of your head and come out!"
Elemenope|12.17.08 @ 2:07PM|#
Isn't the Brazilian martial art called Capoeria, or am I missing some powerfully obscure pop culture reference with all this Jiu-Jitsu fooferah?
thoreau|12.17.08 @ 2:07PM|#
Given that the cops claim they thought he was a terrorist, I'm impressed that the jury had the balls to not go along with the cops.
sage|12.17.08 @ 2:11PM|#
Isn't the Brazilian martial art called Capoeria, or am I
missing some powerfully obscure pop culture reference with all this
Jiu-Jitsu fooferah?
Oh, you're missing something for sure. Let's see...ah, here it is.
Royce Gracie used it to win the first two Ultimate Fighter
tournaments - before they had things like round, rules, and weight
classes. And he was about a 175 pounder.
|12.17.08 @ 2:12PM|#
Maybe the Special Forces should publish a booklet detailing
what arm and hand positions to avoid if you prefer not to be shot
in the head by police.
It might look something like
this
Naga Sadow|12.17.08 @ 2:13PM|#
Elemenope,
Fooferah? You must have balls the size of watermelons to type that.
Personally, I would be checking everywhere for the Brazillian
mercenary who was hired to avenge the insult you just threw
out.
"Okay, first, we hire a midget.
I'm listening.
When the target starts his car, said midget,
now in our employ, bursts out of the air bag and strangles
him!"
ev|12.17.08 @ 2:13PM|#
Yeah here's my problem, other than the obvious.
Seven times to the head. After one or two, he's going to fall. They
all shot in unison? Good shootin' Brits.
Also, after 7 shots, I doubt he had a head so much as a stump.
|12.17.08 @ 2:14PM|#
It might look something like this
Is that one of those goddamn $5 dollar foot-long Subway ads?
|12.17.08 @ 2:21PM|#
I don't remember Police Squad itself but I do remember
Norberg with that fucking cannon on the roof in "The Smell of
Fear".
Just picture Drebin firing at a suspect, who is firing back, and
they are about 3 feet away from each other behind trash cans.
Dello|12.17.08 @ 2:27PM|#
Epi,
"My guess is they are instructed to unload a full mag into the
target's head. Remember, this is their procedure for stopping
someone who may be about to detonate a bomb. The person needs to be
dead as fast as possible. Seven shots to the head pretty much
guarantee that. One does not."
I agree, which is why I can't fault them any more for the seventh
shot than I can for the first.
Which is a lot, by the way.
Naga Sadow|12.17.08 @ 2:28PM|#
SugarFree,
I was thinking of myself and realized your time difference. Here
it's only 1:30.
|12.17.08 @ 2:45PM|#
Wait a minute. I'm trying to get this straight.
The cops had identified this guy as a suicide bomber? (erroneously,
but we'll ignore that for the nonce).
They started at his apartment and followed him through the
streets to the Tube station?
They let him go into the Tube station?
And they let him get on a subway train?
And then they shot him?
They let someone they thought was a suicide bomber get
on a subway train?
Not someone they thought was acting suspiciously in the Tube
station but someone they had been following through the streets
from the front door of his apartment because they thought he
was a suicide bomber.
OK. Do I have that about right now?
|12.17.08 @ 2:48PM|#
Yo, fuck central time.
Yeah, what the hell is with this "central" time bullshit anyway?
There's only one time: Eastern Time. Right, all you Dallas
lovers? Who shot JR now, bitches?
|12.17.08 @ 2:53PM|#
Who shot JR now, bitches?
This reminds me of an old Polack joke.
The puchline: "Yeah, but didn't think he'd jump
again."
Work backwards from there.
|12.17.08 @ 3:00PM|#
P Brooks, I think thats a blonde joke, not a polish joke. Works better as one, anywho.
cunnivore|12.17.08 @ 3:00PM|#
Isaac,
My understanding is that they had his place under surveillance, but
the officer surveiling went to the bathroom and came back to
discover de Menezes had left his apartment. He notified local
police, who had two *unarmed* cops track him down to the bus. They
didn't want to confront him there because they obviously had no way
of stopping him from detonating.
The armed police (ie Special Forces) first entered the scene at the
tube station. The original claim was that they shouted for him to
stop at the entrance to the tube station but he jumped the
turnstyle and ran onto the platform and onto a train, and the SF
caught up to him there.
of course, it came out a few days later that his fare card had been
deducted at that station just before the shooting, which is kind of
hard to do if you jump the turnstyle. One reason I'm curious to see
how the SFs reconcile their clearly fabricated original explanation
with what really happened.
cunnivore|12.17.08 @ 3:01PM|#
Oh, and the security cameras at the tube station and on the train all had technical difficulties that day, in case you're wondering.
Naga Sadow|12.17.08 @ 3:02PM|#
Episiarch,
Whoa! Some people here hate day light savings and what not. What's
so great about CT time anyway, huh?
tarran|12.17.08 @ 3:35PM|#
Actually, it gets worse:
I read the testimony of one of the officers. He claimed that he had
grabbed Menezes, and had thrown him down on a subway seat and was
getting ready to grab and handcuff the Menezes' hands when he heard
the gunshots by his ear. His testimony indicated that he was
surprised by the fire.
It wasn't manslaughter. This was murder.
|12.17.08 @ 3:43PM|#
The BBC had a nice walkthrough
of the official story of events based on the results of the
inquest.
The whole sequence of events from the time they started tracking
him leaving the apartment was a terrible, confusing mess.
|12.17.08 @ 4:11PM|#
"""It might look something like this""""
That's funny.
The problem is one would have to already be in that position at the
time. Raising your hands to get there is a motion consistant with
detonating a bomb. As someone else was pointing out, it's all in
the eyes of the beholder and if the beholder works for government
security forces, a free pass is implied.
|12.17.08 @ 11:40PM|#
Again, like I said before, if they would do like I did and have
there lower ribs removed so they could blow themselves this problem
would go away.
Since I have started sucking myself off, and given my mom so much
more free time, I have been on the whole much happier.
Site comments/questions:
Media Inquiries and Reprint Permissions:
(310) 367-6109
Editorial & Production Offices:
3415 S. Sepulveda Blvd.
Suite 400
Los Angeles, CA 90034
(310) 391-2245