Stay Classy, Constitution Party

I've covered the various baseless conspiracy theories about Barack Obama as much as they probably should be covered. Last week and this week, I wrote for Slate about the apogee of the theory that Obama, for whetever reason, is not a "natural born citizen." But it seems like the problems of Rod Blagojevich, and the Obama's campaigns strangely muted and incomplete explanations of what-they-knew-when-they-knew-it, have taken the gas out of the Birthers' engines.

Exhibit A: World Net Daily, which had been the de facto control room for Birtherism, has rushed right along to the Blagojevich scandal. I count seven articles about Blagojevich on the web mag's front page compared to five about the birth conspiracy, and the ratio was much higher on Tuesday and Wednesday.

Exhibit B: Roger Bredow, who organized a tiny vigil outside the Supreme Court to pray that they'd disqualify Obama, immediately jumped onto the Blagojevich story.

These are good things, as no small number of conservatives were fretting about the rise of something like the old Vince Foster and Ron Brown and "Clinton Chronicles" conspiracies of the 1990s—freakish stuff that whipped up talk radio but made the opposition to Democrats look crazy.

One problem: if this conspiracy is losing steam, it's still popular with the Constitution Party and with elements of the Ron Paul r3VOLution. Last week, staffers for Paul told me that they were inundated with calls about the birth conspiracy, egged on by talk radio hosts who helpfully informed listeners that "Dr. Paul cares about the Constitution." This week I see that the Constitution Party (whose candidate for president this year was endorsed by Paul) is "challenging Barack Obama to release his birth certificate." Take it, national chairman Jim Clymer!

If a non-citizen can be given a free pass to the presidency than what’s to say someone with no allegiance and who harbors ill will toward the country won’t someday assume office?

What, indeed?

Maybe Ron Paul doesn't have to worry about this stuff. After all, what's the danger in people who associate themselves with his name and causes engaging in ethnically-charged wingnuttery?

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  • ||

    Wingnut magazine, "Reason", engages in wingnuttery by accusing wingnut political part of wingnuttery! Wingnuts!

  • ||

  • </||

    The newsletters? Never an issue other than with the cosmo faction.

    The 9/11 Truthers (and Paul's non-denunciation) are what killed him among otherwise somewhat sympathetic "libertarian-conservatives".

  • Citizen Nothing||

    Here we go.

  • ||

    My running assumption is that at least someone on the Obama team (Rahm seems likely) knew that Blago was seeking something, and that they told him "no," but perhaps didn't bother to report him to the feds.

    It seems likely. First, it's seems incredibly unlikely that no one from Obama's team would even talk about the seat. Second, it seems quite certain from the tapes that Blago believed that he spoke to someone from Obama's team that told him that they wanted Jarrett but that nothing other than "appreciation" would be forthcoming. (Or otherwise turned down hints.) Third, it fits the President-elects history in Chicago-- personally clean, but willing to "go along" enough with the machine and not make waves. Willing to endorse a Todd Stroger here, or work on Blago's re-election campaign there, etc.

    Honest, but not a corruption-fighting saint.

  • </||

    Jeeze Thacker,


    That isn't "your running assumption".It is the conventional wisdom.
    Might actually worse but everybody Hopes for the best before we Change.

  • BPC||

    it's still popular with the Constitution Party and with elements of the Ron Paul r3VOLution.

    "Elements" aka a few posts on Daily Paul. God you're pathetic Weigel. Let me guess, you think that questioning Obama's ties to Blagojevich is the same as 9/11 trutherism too? Blagoism anyone?

  • ||

    A question for those with much more American History... was a President ever born in the terrorities?

  • ||

    See, I told you Obama was born on Caprica.

  • The Wine Commonsewer||

    I've covered the various baseless conspiracy theories about Barack Obama as much as they probably should be covered

    To the fifth power.....

  • ||

    Let me guess, you think that questioning Obama's ties to Blagojevich is the same as 9/11 trutherism too?



    That's entirely not the impression I get from the post. I get the impression that Dave is quite happy that those inclined to look for conspiracy theories and scandals against Obama have latched on to something where further investigation and questions are reasonable, and that has diverted their attentions away from the ridiculous.

    Obama seems personally honest, but he's no Pat Quinn. Being a real reforming outsider would have meant a much slower rise to power in Chicago and Illinois politics. Instead, Obama made his peace with the machine while not being part of it and they were willing to support him as a "golden boy," even if he wasn't corrupt. I don't think he sold parts of his soul to do so, but I don't think he's a saint.

  • ||

    So, is Paul's ultimate legacy going to be a bunch of bitter neo-confederates whining about "cosmotarians", then?

  • ||

    A question for those with much more American History... was a President ever born in the terrorities?



    I don't believe so. There were some who were born in a state and who moved to a territory at a relatively young age, such as Andrew Jackson. (Born near the NC/SC border, moved to Tennessee when it was a territory and served in territorial government.) Similarly William Henry Harrison was born in Virginia, but was Territorial Governor of Indiana, and before that the non-voting delegate member of Congress from the Northwest Territory.

    There was apparently a rumor that Chester Alan Arthur was secretly born in Canada and ineligible to be President; his political opponents circulated the rumor but could not prove it. What goes around comes around.

  • ||

    Thank you, John Thacker.

  • charlie||

    So despite the fact that this story has absolutely no connection to Ron Paul, other than the fact that some right-wing crazies called his office in an (unsuccessful) attempt to enlist him in their latest inane cause, Dave Weigel uses the story as an opportunity to -- yet again -- link back to the newsletter controversy? Weak.

  • ||

    Oh, incidentally, Goldwater, however, was born in Arizona when it was a territory, so there have been losing candidates from territories. (I don't know about in the past.) And we know about McCain being born in the Panama Canal Zone.

  • ||

    For example, BPC, this paragraph from Dave:

    These are good things, as no small number of conservatives were fretting about the rise of something like the old Vince Foster and Ron Brown and "Clinton Chronicles" conspiracies of the 1990s-freakish stuff that whipped up talk radio but made the opposition to Democrats look crazy.



    Make it pretty obvious that Weigel is saying that this is a "good" thing to ask questions about, instead of a "crazy freakish" one.

  • Robby Lee||

    This is smart. Rip on the only political allies you actually might have. Really astute.

  • ||

    Maybe Ron Paul doesn't have to worry about this stuff [Conspiracy Theory enthusiasts]

    He already said he does not espouse the same beliefs as the 9/11 "Truthers" nor has he been clamoring for the appearance of the magical Birth Certificate. But, Wiegel, spot on: guilt by association, innuendo, character assassination . . . you SURE know how to throw some curve balls there.

    So, is Paul's ultimate legacy going to be a bunch of bitter neo-confederates whining about "cosmotarians", then?

    What the hell is a "neo-confederate"? Oh, I see, you mean those of us who believe the States had the right to secede from the Union the same way as any of us have a right to leave a club?

    BTW I do not whine about "cosmotarians", I just feel sorry for them.

  • 24AheadDotCom||

    Here's a problem:

    Weigel lied in that Slate article.

    In fact, despite everything you've heard, the state of Hawaii never verified that Obama was born there.

    Yes, that's right: their statement did not verify he was born there. They only said his cert was on file. And, that tells us next to nothing because people born in other states or countries can get HI certs depending on the residency of their parents.

    When I contacted the state of HI, they refused to confirm the contention from others that they had verified where he was born. Not only that, but they included the part of HI law indicating that it would be illegal for them to verify anything on the cert they have on file or to verify that the cert on BHO's site matches the one they have on file.

    That's not "birtherism", that's the facts.

    If Weigel wants to salvage his reputation, he should immediately call JaniceOkubo from the HI Dep't of Health and see if he can get her to confirm his claims.

    Otherwise, he's just making things up.

  • ||

    That's not "birtherism", that's the facts.

    Anyone else get a flash of a screaming baby beating against the side of a crib?

    Let's play "spot the telltale typographical tic."

  • Robby Lee||

    At least he gets that he's in a cage.

  • Vinny||

    I hate all of you. All of you who post here. I hate all of you more than ever. You are all, regardless of belief or worldview, the dumbest, most self-absorbed people I have ever seen engage in verbal diarrhea. Have a nice day, and get bent.

  • Dave Weigel||

    Not that it matters to LoneWacko, but he's lying, as usual. In my article I refer to "the state of Hawaii's official statement that the certificate was legitimate." So even if you buy LW's conspiracy theory, I don't contradict it in that sentence.

    Most people would take the evidence that Hawaii confirmed that they have another copy of Obama's birth certificate (debunking the idiots who claimed the campaign forged it), that Obama's parents bought birth announcement in both Honolulu papers, and that there is no record of Ann Dunham traveling out of the United States in 1961 and conclude that Obama was, indeed, born in Hawaii.

  • Xeones||

    When I contacted the state of HI, they refused to confirm the contention from others that they had verified where he was born.

    That might have a lot to do with you being an ObviouslyDeluded and SadIndividual. That's not AdHominem, that's the facts.

  • ||

    Vinny, why so serious?

  • Xeones||

    Vinny FTW!

  • Fluffy||

    Vinny is self-absorbed enough to believe that his denunciation of us will matter to anyone in even the slightest way.

  • 24AheadDotCom||

    It's Weigel that's lying, and also engaging in extremely sloppy reporting by jumping to conclusions. The implication in the sentence quoted - and the entire implication of the article and this post - are that where BHO was born has been verified. That is false.

    Most people would take the evidence that Hawaii confirmed that they have another copy of Obama's birth certificate (debunking the idiots who claimed the campaign forged it)

    Once again, Weigel shows he isn't a real reporter. The statement from HI only said they had a cert on file and it was valid. "Most people" aren't aware of the HI law that allows - once again - those born in other states to get HI certs depending on the residency of their parents. That means that BHO could have a valid cert on file in HI *and* he could have been born somewhere else.

    that Obama's parents bought birth announcement in both Honolulu papers

    I've only seen one announcement, and it does not say where BHO was born. All it has is the address of his parents. No evidence has been provided showing who placed the announcement; it could have been the hospital, his parents, or his grandparents.

    None of the above is evidence that BHO was born outside HI. However, the case that he was born in HI has not been definitively proven. Weigel says it's been proven, but does so based on assumptions.

    Once again: get JaniceOkubo to publicly state that their 10/31 announcement verified that BHO was born in HI. She won't do it.

    Once again, if Weigel wants to salvage his reputation he needs to stop making assumptions and do some real reporting for a change.

    If you want all the details on this issue, here's the truth about what we know about where Obama was born. No assumptions as Weigel makes, just the known facts.

  • robc||

    A number of presidents were born in colonies.

    Van Buren was the first naturally born US president.

    Alexander Hamilton was born in the Caribbean but was eligible due to being in the US in 1776 (or whatever the original standard was). He never won though, duh.

  • ||

    And, that tells us next to nothing because people born in other states or countries can get HI certs depending on the residency of their parents.



    But they don't get birth certificates that say they were born in Honolulu.

    They would get birth certificates that say that they were born in some other place.

  • Egosumabbas||

    What the hell does Ron Paul have to do with the birth certificate controversy? Seriously? Was that just to bait LoneWacko into posting here?

  • Dave Weigel||

    But they don't get birth certificates that say they were born in Honolulu.

    Isaac Bartram wins! His prize: a Lonewacko post accusing him of stuff then linking back to the Lonewacko blog.

  • robc||

    first naturally born US president

    Ummm...well, you know what I meant.

  • Citizen Nothing||

    Actually, Fluf, Vinny has cut me to the quick. So I guess his life DOES matter.

  • ||

    Not that it matters to LoneWacko, but he's lying, as usual

    Is it really lying if he actually believes it to be true?

  • robc||

    Van Buren was not from his mother's womb untimely ripped.

  • Xeones||

    Yeah, robc, but he grew up speaking Dutch. Goddamn wooden shoe wearing tulip-fondler.

  • 24AheadDotCom||

    Isaac Bartram writes: But they don't get birth certificates that say they were born in Honolulu.

    Did you read the link? Are you capable of reading?

    The state of HI has not verified that the cert they have on file matches the one on BHO's site.

    In their reply to me, they quoted the HI state law making it illegal to offer such verification.

    Read that over and over until you understand it.

    Now, let's try some questions for Weigel:

    1. Can someone have a valid cert on file in HI *and* have been born in another state or country? Yes or no.

    2. Would it be illegal under HI state law for an official to verify the *contents* of a cert they have on file, such as birth location? Yes or no.

    3. Quote the part of the 10/31 statement from the state of HI were they explicitly confirmed he was born in HI.

  • Citizen Nothing||

    I have heard that a guy has definite proof that LoneWacko can't prove he wasn't born in Juarez.

  • Daniel Webster||

    Goddamn wooden shoe wearing tulip-fondler.

    I would have thought the witches would have mentioned that detail.

  • stuartl||

    None of the above is evidence that BHO was born outside HI.

    Bingo!

  • ||

    The conspiracists need a kick in the taint and kicked out of the movement. Birchers killed Goldwater's campaign. Troofers killed Paul's campaign. Now the birthers are in a last ditch effort to destroy the remaining credibility in the freedom movement.

    My One Ounce Gold Liberty Eagle Dollar wager is still up for takers. But your money where you mouth is.

  • the innominate one||

    24AheadDotCom | December 12, 2008, 4:11pm | #

    Isaac Bartram writes: But they don't get birth certificates that say they were born in Honolulu.

    Did you read the link? Are you capable of reading?


    I'm not Isaac, of course, but lonewackoff's posts make me wish I were functionally illiterate.

  • ||

    """From 24AheadDotCom's website.
    Until Obama releases an official copy of his birth certificate to some reliable authority - such as a respected judge - and that certificate is verified with the issuing agency there will always be doubts about his birthplace. Even showing some form of his birth certificate to a group of reporters will not be proof because reporters are not document experts and a very large number of reporters have shown themselves willing to lie on his behalf. """

    If you think Obama is not a natural citizen, it's your responsibility to prove your claim. All I noticed, feel free to direct me if I'm wrong, is you shooting down the claims of others. That doesn't promote your argument. But if I take the above mentioned requirements to heart, you're full of crap and unless you get an experts to prove your website is legit and a judge to review it, I'm saying it's fake.

    Bottom line, there always will be doubt, even if SCOTUS ruled on the issue. Will this become the right-wing version of the left's Bush wasn't elected in 2000?

  • ||

    I don't know how Lonewacko gets so much done considering the burgeoning music career in England.

  • ||

    I'd settle with an expert or experts.
    ;-)

  • EJM||

    My One Ounce Gold Liberty Eagle Dollar wager is still up for takers.

    Unfortunately, I only bet with ameros.

  • ||

    Isaac Bartram wins!



    Woohoo!!! I win! I win!!! In yer face Stevo Darkly!!! :)

    His prize: a Lonewacko post accusing him of stuff then linking back to the Lonewacko blog.



    Oh shit. Oh well pride goet before...and all that, huh.

    Shoulda known there was a catch.

    In their reply to me, they quoted the HI state law making it illegal to offer such verification.



    I'm sure there is a law which says they can only release information to parties with a legitimate interest.

    But I'm fairly sure that if there was the level of malfeasance you are suggesting they would be well within their rights, nay, they would have a duty, to report it to the appropriate authorities.

    What you're suggesting is that B Hussein Obama has committed multiple perjuries by signing any number of affidavits to the affect that he is a US citizen (everything from passport applications to election documents) and gotten away with it, and has done so with the connivance of God only knows how many public officials? And that noone, ever, has caught on and exposed him as the fraud he is? Like, not in forty-some years?

    Are you really this batshit fucking insane, or is this some elaborate performance art?

  • 24AheadDotCom||

    Look, I'm not an excellent writer, and I don't have experience teaching kindergarten. I'm unable to idiot-proof things to the degree that others would no doubt be able to.

    However, whatever claims or beliefs I have about this issue, the only one relevant to this discussion is that where BHO was born has not been definitively proven. That's a simple fact: all of the proof is based on things that are not really definitive proof. And, despite the fact that it hasn't been definitively proven, some claim that it has been definitively proven, and they're lying.

  • ||

    So, let me see if I follow LoneWhackJob's logic here.

    Obama should prove that he is and American citizen by releasing his birth certificate.
    Done.

    Hawaii should state that he has a birth certificate issued by the state.
    Done.

    Hawaii should confirm that the one on his website is true and correct.
    Undoable due to state law.

    So Obama should now also show his Birth Certificate to a Judge?

    Man, my Birth Certificate, which is way newer than Obama's, is a canted 20 year old photocopy of the now destroyed original (warehouse fire) with a fucking notary stamp impressed into it. If that is good enough to get me elected, then what the fuck do you want, a gold plated copy direct from the hands of God?

    I say, suck it up LoneWhackJob because you're out of steam.

  • ||

    I envy Dave Weigel's position here - he gets to write a quick article stating there are some nutty people that are still clinging to the idea that Obama is not a natural citizen, and then they come prove him right.

    The Pied Piper can't have had this much fun!

  • ||

    Unfortunately, I only bet with ameros.



    How dare you post a link to Snopes! I myself received a forwarded email in ALL CAPS (which means it must be true) stating that Barbara Mikelsen was an Insider and part of the conspiracy because she claimed the that 9/11 was not an inside job.

  • ||

    """the only one relevant to this discussion is that where BHO was born has not been definitively proven."""

    Is there any type of proven other than definitively?

    Obama is not required to prove his citizenship to a standard beyond any other president.

  • 24AheadDotCom||

    OK, let's try this again. Show me where anyone has definitively proved where BHO was born, making sure beforehand that there are no assumptions in your proof.

    There are several assumptions from Isaac Bartram above. Who knows? They might be true.

    However, nothing has been definitively proven.

    Just admit that you're assuming that BHO was born in HI based on faith and not definitive proof, and there won't be an issue.

  • a name before submitting the f||

    TrickyVic

    If you think Obama is not a natural citizen, it's your responsibility to prove your claim.



    ?

    In a way you are right. The best time to have taken care of this was the election. "You know, this O'bama guy hasn't even demonstrated he's even eligible to be president. Why should I vote for him?" It is possible that the burden of proof has now shifted.

  • yoikes||

    Of the following conspiracies:
    1) 9/11 was a controlled demolition.
    2) Obama is hiding that he is not a natural born citizen of the US.
    3) Ron Paul is a closet white supremacist.
    If find the last to be the least credible.

  • Citizen Nothing||

    My belief in gravity isn't based on difinitive proof either. EGAD! Somebody get me off the ceiling!

  • Geotpf||

    24AheadDotCom | December 12, 2008, 4:44pm | #

    OK, let's try this again. Show me where anyone has definitively proved where BHO was born, making sure beforehand that there are no assumptions in your proof.

    There are several assumptions from Isaac Bartram above. Who knows? They might be true.

    However, nothing has been definitively proven.

    Just admit that you're assuming that BHO was born in HI based on faith and not definitive proof, and there won't be an issue.


    The state of Hawaii has issued documents stating where he was born. Plus, there was a birth announcement in the local paper at the time. That's enough for anybody who isn't coo coo for Cocoa Puffs.

  • libertarian democrat||

    Real classy with the RP reference, Weigel. Completely appropriate in context. Kinda funny considering your own post title.

  • Citizen Nothing||

    defintive. God, i'm a lousy typist.

  • Geotpf||

    yoikes | December 12, 2008, 4:46pm | #

    Of the following conspiracies:
    1) 9/11 was a controlled demolition.
    2) Obama is hiding that he is not a natural born citizen of the US.
    3) Ron Paul is a closet white supremacist.
    If find the last to be the least credible.


    My take on #3 is that Ron Paul knowingly allowed white supremacist-type statements to be made in his name to sell more newsletters.

    Still pretty repugnant.

  • ||

    Here's what I like about the conspiracy folks. They like to raise the bar of proof for the other team while lowering the bar of proof for their own.

    There is no proof that we could offer which you would agree. If a judge certified the document as real, you would question the judge degree of respect since you require a "respectful judge".

  • ||

    Lonewackjob

    Whay is there any more doubt about where Hussein O'bama was born than about where John McCain or Ron Paul or Sara Palin.....or...?

    Barak Obama has presumably presented the same proof of citizenship as all of those people.

    I mean to say, old chap, would you be asking the same probing questions about McCain or Paul (or Palin - say if the excitement of winning had cause McCain to drop dead of a stroke and she was due to be sworn in on 1/20)?

  • 24AheadDotCom||

    Geotpf says: The state of Hawaii has issued documents stating where he was born.

    That's a false statement. There's a picture of a cert on BHO's site, but it hasn't been verified.

    And, in their 10/31 statement, the state of HI did not say anything about where he was born.

    The announcement has already been discussed in a previous comment.

    Find someone who's smart to read this to you.

    Let me repeat those questions for Weigel:

    1. Can someone have a valid cert on file in HI *and* have been born in another state or country? Yes or no.

    2. Would it be illegal under HI state law for an official to verify the *contents* of a cert they have on file, such as birth location? Yes or no.

    3. Quote the part of the 10/31 statement from the state of HI were they explicitly confirmed he was born in HI.

  • ||

    TrickyVic already made that comment, I see.

    And I feel kind of stupid sitting here tryiing to reason with a lunatic.

    Kwix, someone once suggested to me that to protect your valuable papers like that (especially if it's the only one left) you should take it to the local courthouse and have the clerk record a copy in the public records.

  • Fluffy||

    Lonewacko was born in Mexico and is secretly a Mexican.

    Prove he wasn't.

  • Kolohe||

    that Obama's parents bought birth announcement in both Honolulu papers

    I've only seen one announcement, and it does not say where BHO was born. All it has is the address of his parents. No evidence has been provided showing who placed the announcement; it could have been the hospital, his parents, or his grandparents.



    The local afternoon talk radio guy in Honolulu (who leans conservative, but is not nearly as much as the big names, and a heck of lot less than the smaller ones) told an anecdote just before the election on how the Hono advertiser did birth announcements. During the period when Obama was born, the radio host's mother worked for the advertiser in the classified department. So when the radio host was 10 to 12 years old he would routinely accompany his mother and run in to collect the birth announcement forms from the the area hospitals while his mother waited in the car curbside. Based upon what he said, most if not all (he couldn't recall for sure) of birth announcements were based on forms filled out at hospitals, not something that a family would contact the newspaper about later and independently.

  • ||

    """That's a false statement. There's a picture of a cert on BHO's site, but it hasn't been verified."""

    Just because it hasn't been verified to your liking doesn't mean it's NOT true.

    24AheadDotCom, If you order a beer at a bar, how do you really know it's been unless it's been tested at a lab. It may taste, look, and smell like beer, but unless it's verified you don't know what the hell you are drinking, so sez your philosophy of truth.

  • The Angry Optimist||

    Lonewacko's a Cartesian? I had no idea.

  • ||

    This is hilarious. I have it on good authority (Dave W.) that Weigel has a standing bet with Jesse that he can get more posts in his threads. Jesse started strong today with sex (Bettie Page), but Dave put out LoneWacko-bait and will kill him.

  • ||

    Fluffy, the more 24AheadDotCom types, the more I realize it's not about proving the negative. He's just saying that no one has proven Obama's birth to his satisfaction. At best his problem lies in the truth vs belief debate. At worst, he's a troll with a bad case of cognitive dissonence. I haven't decided. In either case, it's very unlikely any of us could convince him otherwise with the best of evidence.

  • 24AheadDotCom||

    I gotta tell ya, it isn't fun discussing things with idiots.

    Can anyone count all the assumptions in Kolohe's statement? Wouldn't it have also been possible for BHO's grandparents to place the announcement, without contradicting any part of Kolohe's anecdote? Yes or no. Would anyone have questioned them? Is there any proof of who placed the announcement which - once again - doesn't say where he was born?

    Really, lying like this is going to haunt Weigel for the rest of his career; the sockpuppets in Reason comment threads don't matter.

    If Weigel wants to maintain any credibility, all he has to do is pick up the phone and get JaniceOkubo to definitively state that their 10/31 statement was meant to prove that BHO was born in HI. She won't do that, and Weigel won't do that. He can't even answer my three simple questions for him.

    He's just making claims based on faith rather than facts.

  • the innominate one||

    24AheadDotCom | December 12, 2008, 5:23pm | #
    I gotta tell ya, it isn't fun discussing things with idiots.


    We're well aware.

  • ||

    LoneWacko will not accept my bet. He's a lilly livered, yellow belly, cojone sucking coward.

  • ||

    24AheadDotCom | December 12, 2008, 4:58pm | #
    There's a picture of a cert on BHO's site, but it hasn't been verified.

    It carries the seal of the State of Hawaii. By law, that makes it prima facie evidence. It needs no further verification; it is legally valid unless proven otherwise.

  • ||

    I gotta tell ya, it isn't fun discussing things with idiots.



    I don't know, I find your insane ramblings hilarious.

    Now I feel guilty, my mother always told me I shouldn't make fun of the handicapped.

  • EJM||

    It carries the seal of the State of Hawaii. By law, that makes it prima facie evidence. It needs no further verification; it is legally valid unless proven otherwise.

    Maybe, just maybe, the seal was forged by Wo Fat. Hasn't anyone considered that possibility?

  • 24AheadDotCom||

    MaineSkeptic writes: It carries the seal of the State of Hawaii. By law, that makes it prima facie evidence. It needs no further verification; it is legally valid unless proven otherwise.

    Thank you, counselor. However, this also has the same seal. That makes it evidence, just not of being a real cert.

    Now, that does not mean that BHO uploaded a fake cert. However, whether it's a real or a fake cert has not been proven. Most people are willing to believe it's real, but that's a belief.

    Let me try to say this in a simple fashion. There is a picture on the website of BHO. It looks like a real certificate. However, it has not been verified.

    So, just admit that you are basing everything on faith, and everything will be OK.

    Pick up the phone, Weigel. Your reputation depends on it.

  • ||

    Actualy, SolitaryLunatic, while you haven't answered any other questions there is one question I asked that you that i would like ane answere to.

    Why is there any more doubt about where Hussein O'bama was born than about where John McCain or Ron Paul or Sara Palin.....or...?



    I mean really. Would you ask the same things of the other candidates? Have you asked these questions in the past? About either Bush, or Bill Clinton?

    Why the higher standard of proof for BHO?

    What proof do you have of your position?

    Hell, what grounds for suspicion do you even have?

    I will say that i have my suspicions about your suspicions, but maybe we ought to leave it at that.

  • ||

    24AheadDotCom | December 12, 2008, 5:38pm | #

    However, whether it's a real or a fake cert has not been proven. Most people are willing to believe it's real, but that's a belief.


    You are simply wrong, ask any lawyer. Official state documents are presumed to be true unless proven otherwise. No amount of hand-waving will change that fact.

  • ||

    Well, you've finally answered that one.

    So you're saying that BHO is a conspirator in a massive fraud?

    And that numerous public official are complicit in this fraud if not original conspirators in this fraud?

    That is what you're saying, right?

  • 24AheadDotCom||

    Official state documents are presumed to be true unless proven otherwise.

    That's pretty funny, and not just because of the recursive definition. If that were in any way true in the present case, then the document linked in my previous comment would be valid.

    If Weigel were a real reporter, he'd get on the phone right now - it's not even noon in HI - and get JaniceOkubo to confirm that what he thinks they said on 10/31 is accurate. She won't do that.

    Even if Weigel has the guts to make a five minute phone call, he won't tell us what she says because it would show he's basing his claims on faith and not facts.

  • ||

    "Help! Help! I have this solid proof that the President-Elect of the United States got elected using a phony Certification of Live Birth! You know, using a false state document is a felony -- this guy should be in prison! And a law professor! He should know better!

    But I can't get a single judge to let me bring a case!

    WHAT'S WRONG WITH THEM?"

  • ||

    All I can say is that when you and all the other whackoes prove this:

    1) You won't be able to call yourself the LoneWhacko any more.

    and

    2) The economic crisis will be over. There will be enough work for every lawyer in the country to become a Federal prosecutor.

  • ||

    It's a low blow to tie Ron Paul to this. Attack him for endorsing that nutter Baldwin and his theocratic kook party all you want- though at the same time you have to point out the role Barr's stupidity played in the whole fiasco- and as a proud supporter of Paul's primary campaign I'll be right there with you. But unless Paul actually endorses the nonsense about Obama not being a citizen- and there's no reason to think he will since his problem has always been a lack of sufficiently differentiating and distancing himself from the conspiracy kooks rather than being one himself- this is just a dishonest cheap shot. Paul has many faults, and I don't gloss over them, but this kind of dishonest cheap shot is lowering the good name of reason to Lew Rockwell's level.

  • 24AheadDotCom||

    In my quest for an IdiotProofArgument, let me try this:

    Weigel is basing his claims on a statement that the maker will not confirm as having the meaning that Weigel gives it.

    When faced with something like that, a real reporter would rush to the phone and try to confirm that he interpreted the statement correctly, and then print the results no matter what they are.

    Let's see what Weigel does.

  • ||

    OK, Whacjob, answere this fucking question!

    So you're saying that BHO is a conspirator in a massive fraud?

    That is what you're saying, right?

  • EJM||

    ...it's not even noon in HI...

    It's actually 1:00 p.m. there right now.

  • ||

    Let's see what Weigel does.



    Wait a minute, Whackjob, didn't you say they won't answer "those questions"?

  • Kolohe||

    Can anyone count all the assumptions in Kolohe's statement? Wouldn't it have also been possible for BHO's grandparents to place the announcement, without contradicting any part of Kolohe's anecdote? Yes or no. Would anyone have questioned them? Is there any proof of who placed the announcement which - once again - doesn't say where he was born?



    I never said it was definitive proof. All I ask is for you to believe me when I say I'm trying to prevent the ghost of Lord Occam from giving you an atomic wedgie.

  • Kreel Sarloo||

    "So you're saying that BHO is a conspirator in a massive fraud?"

    Of course not. He's just a simple darky doing what his massa tells him.

    Thats TheQuestion we really have to ask. Wose Obamas Massa.

    Probably Dick Cheney.


    Bwahahaha

  • Kolohe||

    Correction, Brother Occam, not Lord.

  • Kreel Sarloo||

    I can see I got a lots to learn here.

    Already I see I used the spacebar tooMuch inThatPost.

  • ||

    Has any court of law found, as a matter of fact, after a hearing with all parties having had the opportunity to present evidence, that the affirmative action beneficiary is a natural born citizen of this US and A?

  • ||

    As I have pointed out on the Daily Paul and other discussion sites, the location where BO was born is a red herring. He had a parent who was a US citizen when he was born, and that makes him a natural-born US citizen, just like John McCain, and thousands of Americans born overseas every year (like myself.)

    Oh, and Weigel: fuck you for trying to smear Ron Paul again.

    -jcr

  • ||

    libertymike | December 12, 2008, 6:11pm | #
    Has any court of law found...?


    No, no court has been willing to entertain the case. And considering that two of the possible outcomes might be the invalidation of the presidential election and the conviction the winner of a felony, don't you have to wonder why not a single credible soul is taking this seriously?

  • ||

    Still waiting for any Bircher, Troofer or Birther to accept my wager.

  • 24AheadDotCom||

    Once again, the only thing relevant to the current discussion concerns whether it's been definitively proved where BHO was born. It has not; every supposed "proof" is based on assumptions, plenty of which are available above.

    And, here's another attempt at an IdiotProofArgument:

    The state of Hawaii refuses to confirm that Weigel and others interpreted their remarks correctly.

    So, Weigel is basing his statements on an interpretation that the maker will not confirm as being correct.

    I don't suggest trusting anything Weigel says until he either confirms his interpretation or prints a correction.

    Let's see if you can prove me wrong, Weigel. Pick up the phone and call JaniceOkubo.

  • ||

    One question: Why is Obama fighting multiple lawsuits, some all the way to the Supreme Court, in an effort to conceal his complete birth certificate from the American public?

  • ||

    Did Ted Kennedy Kill Someone?

    Did He Leave The Scene Of The Crime?

    Did He Report The Crime 24 Hours Later?

    Did He Remain In Office?

    It seems to me that "Conspiracy" exists; the extent to which it exists should be the only question.

    Wish the posters on Reason would exercise more of it; rather than their haughty delusions of grandeur that deny worthy questions and facts lost in the irrational conclusion of the few.

    Fools and their rights are soon parted.

    The complexity of corruption is vast.

    Reality will be reality whether believed in or not.

  • ||

    We'll return to LoneWacko's retarded conspiracy-mongering after this important message:

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    Designed by Eric the .5b, a Hit & Run regular, INCIF allows you to replace long screeds by your least favorite commenters with nothing but a placeholder! No longer must you entertain the idiocies of H&R's Least Valuable Players!

    Install INCIF and, after a simple configuration process, the trolls are instantly gone!

    Ask your doctor if INCIF is right for you!

    (INCIF should not be used by patients running Microsoft Internet Explorer. INCIF is for Firefox use only, and requires the free Greasemonkey plugin. Side effects of INCIF may include relaxation, lower blood pressure, and the lack of a pressing need to reach through your computer monitor and choke a bitch.)

  • ||

    Brandybuck-

    Off topic-somewhat-

    Re: Irwin Schiff

    I did not have time the other night to respond to your post reacting to some thoughts of mine concerning Mr. Schiff. I agree with you that many of the seminar presenters and book and tape sellers of the tax protest movement appear, and in many instances, are, hucksters more than anything else. Some of them, in my opinion, are even frauds, who, as you asserted, mislead the people to whom they are preaching and selling.

    I have had contact with Mr. Schiff. Not much, but enough to observe that he, too, is part salesman/self-promoter. However, I do believe that he is sincere becauyse he has walked the walk. He wrote a book, circa 1983, the title of which I recall was The Social Security Swindle. Good stuff.

    FYI, do provide links-I will read them. I agree with you that universally, the federal district and circuit courts of appeal have ruled against numerous theories advanced by the tax protesters. In that regard, it is just horrible for a seminar presenter, seller/promoter of books and tapes to claim to their audience/readers that the current state of the case law permits one to opt out of the income tax regime.

    As for the ratification of the 16th, have you read Benson's book, The Law that Never Was?

  • ||

    Buncha pansies

  • ||

    The offer still stands.

  • ||

    Not "Benson", "Benson and "Beckman". Sheesh, can't even get the authors of their own bibles right. Their core argument is noting that there were trivial differences beween ratification documents. Inane stuff like differences in capitalization and the like.

    Here's a link, since you say you will read it:

    http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html

    Here's another, from a bona-fide libertarian at a bona-fide libertarian site:

    http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0703b.asp

  • 24AheadDotCom||

    I'll be back in a couple hours.

    In the meantime, enjoy this reenactment of the above. In my case, it's 238, counting sockpuppets as real people.

  • ||

    Brandybuck-

    Just spent some timne perusing Mr. Evans' site. Some quick observations:

    1. He links to an ADL article that claims tax protesters are dangerous extremists! This is the same ADL that has screamed for, written and successfully orchestrated the enactment of hate laws all over the western world.. Not a good association for Mr. Bell. However, I must be consistent, and will not judge Mr. Evans by his association with the ADL.

    2. This gem from Mr. Evans concerning the argument that the 16th was not properly ratified:

    "These technical arguments against the ratifiaction of the 16th amendment are troubling because they are so undemocratic (as are many other tax protester arguments)."


    Already, I suspect this guy has quite the ax to grind.

  • yoikes||

    In reply to Geotpf

    Of the following conspiracies:
    1) 9/11 was a controlled demolition.
    2) Obama is hiding that he is not a natural born citizen of the US.
    3) Ron Paul knowingly allowed white supremacist-type statements to be made in his name to sell more newsletters.

    To me, #3 is still the least credible conspiracy.

  • ||

    Regarding point 2, tax deniers resort to ridiculous level of legalism in their arguments. Silly stuff like insisting on absolute perfect transcriptions. 99 out of 100 senators could vote for something, but by God if the senate clerk didn't spell everyone's name right then it doesn't count!

  • ||

    Speaking of axes to grind, did you ever hang out with tax deniers? Holy shit! Do they have a chip on their shoulders or what?

  • ||

    Brandybuck-

    Let us notforget that the tax protesters are initiating force against others. The bottom line is that we live in a country where some folks with guns and badges can assault you and incarcerate you becuase you refuse to hand over your property to Caesar, however flawed their legal position may be. Real civilized.

    Who has the ax to grind?

    And-what about the link to the ADL article on Evans' site?

  • ||

    Bradybuck-

    My bad on the orthography. I meant to type that the tax protesters do not initiate force against others by refusing to consent to their property being forcibly confiscated. Obviously, the pieces of crap who work for the state do initiate force by assaulting and incarcerating tax protesters.

  • ||

    Bradybuck-

    You really did not respond to my point about Evans whining how troubled he is with the tax protesters' "undemocratic argument" concerning the ratification of the 16th. Just love the two wolves who claim that it is undemocratic for the sheep to argue that the vote to eat him for lunch was not properly ratified.

  • tarran||

    The john Birch society originally was convinced that the U.S. government was full of secret communists bent on surrendering to the Soviets in the cold war.

    I'm sure the notion of Barack Obama being a secret muslim bent on surrendering on the war a against a strategy hits that nerve.

  • ||

    How do we know that Obama isn't a changeling, a member of the fairyfolk, who secretly replaced the true human infant born to Mr. and Mrs. Obama?

    This fraud cannot stand! Obama must be required to handle cold iron before a judge and other authorities, to PROVE that he is humanborn.

    Obama's occult loyalty to Queen Mab represents an intolerable threat to the United States! We can't afford to be complacent, lest we wake up with the DOJ staffed with hostile brownies, nymphs, and satyrs.

  • ||

    Also, I strongly suspect DOE appointee, Chinese-American Steven Chu, is a Dragonkin.

  • ||

    A) Hawaiian law, at the time of Obama's birth, allowed for FOREIGN born baby's to be registered in Hawaii via a 'Certificate of Live Birth':
    "[§338-17.8] Certificates for children born out of State..."

    http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol06_Ch0321-0344/HRS0338/HRS_0338-0017_0008.htm

    B) The Hawaiian govt' officials NEVER stated that Obama was born in Hawaii. They only stated that they have seen his birth certificate on file. But a B.C. from where?? (see #1 above).

    On October 31, 2008, Dr Chiyome Fukino, Department of Health:
    "Therefore, I as Director of Health for the State of Hawai'i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawai'i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama's original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures."
    http://hawaii.gov/health/about/pr/2008/08-93.pdf

    For the Hawaiian 'Policies and Procedures' she refereed to...see item #1 above which, again, affords foreign born babies to obtain a Hawaiian COLB.
    Legally, the Hawaiian Governor & the Dpt of Health official merely stated fact based on their own laws. One can obviously see that a Kenyan B.C. from 1961 would be legal and valid per Hawaiian law. This would also allow Obama to obtain a U.S. Passport.

    C) Examples of Hawaiian Long Form COLB's:
    1963 Hawaiian Long Form COLB:
    http://a5.vox.com/6a00c2252293c4604a0100a80270e5000e-pi
    1962 Hawaiian Long Form COLB:
    http://passportsusa.com/wp-content/gallery/passportusa/edith_front.jpg

    Obviously, what the Obama camp has released looks nothing like those two Hawaiian COLB's from that time. Where's a copy of his?

    D) If it's proven Obama was indeed foreign born (Kenya), He would NOT have received U.S. citizenship based, only, on his mother's citizenship status. Per U.S. law at the time of his birth (December 24, 1952 to November 13, 1986).
    Birth Abroad to One Citizen and One Alien Parent in Wedlock:
    "For birth between December 24, 1952 and November 13, 1986, a period of ten years, five after the age of fourteen are required for physical presence in the U.S. to transmit U.S. citizenship to the child."

    http://travel.state.gov/law/info/info_609.html

    Note that the law only pertains to 'Citizenship', and not 'Natural Born' Citizen. There is a difference. Governor Schwarzenegger from Ca. is a citizen, yet he could not be POTUS because he isn't a Natural Born citizen. He's a Naturalized citizen.

    Obama's mother didn't give birth to him at 19 (14 + 5). Therefore, Obama could not obtain U.S. citizenship based only by virtue his mother's citizenship.

    E) And then there is the dual citizenship issue (which could make the above totally irrelevant). Factcheck themselves state that Obama was indeed a British subject and did in fact hold dual citizenship AT Birth.

    http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/does_barack_obama_have_kenyan_citizenship.html
    "In other words, at the time of his birth, Barack Obama Jr. was both a U.S. citizen ... and a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies (or the UKC)"

    So even IF he was indeed born in Hawaii (would be easy for him to prove but hasn't so far), Obama could therefore not be a Natural Born citizen because Natural Born citizens can not hold dual citizenship at birth. It has to do with the potential for divided loyalties and the very reason the
    writers of the Constitution themselves allowed for their exception (grandfathered in) because all of them were British Subjects at birth.

    He might be a "Naturalized" Citizen, but there is nothing (to date) in the public sector to suggest he is a 'Natural Born" Citizen, the Constitution clearly requires for one to become POTUS.

    F) Without question, the Secretary of State of New Jersey (& possibly other SoS's) did NOT do their job in making sure the presidential candidates (including Obama) were qualified and eligible to be on their states' ballot.

    Why?

    How would the SoS from NJ explain that Roger Calero was on their ballet as a candidate?

    Socialist Workers Party candidate Roger Calero isn't even a U.S. citizen (Naturalized OR Natural Born), yet appeared on NJ's presidential ballot.

    Calero was also allowed on the state ballot in: Delaware, Minnesota, New York and Vermont.

    Calero is a permanent resident alien (holding a green card).
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%B3ger_Calero

    Note: Not in any particular order. Simply, points of fact and information.

  • ||

    Bradybuck-

    Just read the column of Shledon Richman-your secon link. Essentially, I agree with his position. Note, his first paragrpah wherein he expresses his oppostion to the income tax on moral and natural rights grounds. That's moi.

    You do agree that there is quite a bit of difference between, say, the tone of Mr. Evans and that of Mr. RIchmond?

    Bradybuck, I am going to spend more time on Evans' site. FYI-please, whatever else you may think of me, do not assume that I am the type of person who will not look at, read and consider information, links to sites, books, etc. suggested or provided to me by another.

  • Watch it Weigel, See it Jiggle||

    I'll say this: if getting rid of Barack Obama on the technicality of not being naturally-born would lead to a better replacement, I could see the concerned effort. I just don't see it.

    And contrary to Weigel, Brandybuck, or anyone, I disagree that the nutjobs attracted to Paul or Goldwater before him, were the demise of each's candidacy. Rather it was a concerted effort by the MSM to ignore them and their message. And without some sort of assist from the MSM, no candidate for POTUS will ever win.

    Paul has pretty much stayed focused on his monetary themes. Sure Paul's libertarian lean gave wiggle room for the fringees and attracted them disproportionately, but certainly the doctrinaire neocon or big-govmint liberal was never going to vote for him, and that my friends is the vast majority of our fellow Americans who vote.

  • There\'s a commie hiding behin||

    I would tend to think the jbs is against the War on Terror these days and wouldn't be worried about Obama, secret Muslim, but more worried about Obama, not-so-secret commie or whiter shade of pink.

    I'll give them the credit that they have pretty much stayed on theme all these years.

  • the innominate one||

    libertymike - it's Brandybuck, not Bradybuck

  • ||

    And-what about the link to the ADL article on Evans' site?



    Since you say you will read links, here's one to check out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

    As for Evans' statement on democracy, again, read the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

    Are you really arguing that Evans' views on democracy have any bearing on the legality of the 16th amendment? Really?

  • ||

    Donofrio challenged three candidates in his lawsuit against the NJ SOS: McCain (born in Panama), Calero (born in Nicaragua and not even a citizen, never mind the "natural born" part) and Obama (born as a dual citizen).

    It's a known fact that the Framers used the 1758 "Law of Nations" as a guide in writing the Constitution and that Treatise defines "natural born citizen" as a child born on the soil of the country to two citizens of the country. Most recent case to acknowledge the role of 'Law of Nations' in figuring out what the Framers had on their minds was the March 2008 decision in D.C. vs. Heller, the gun control and Second Amendment case.

    Political DYN-O-MITE for the Supreme Court to take up the case in this environment. The NJ case applied for a Stay that was rejected. There's a like-kind Connecticut case that was brought into SCOTUS conference today that the NJ attorney helped with, by supplementing a brief.

    If you think that ONE parent and birth on U.S. soil is totally sufficient, produce a case that says that. You won't find one. There's a case involving a citizen named Elg. Facts: 2 Swedish parents became naturalized citizens in U.S.; daughter is born afterwards here in U.S.; the family returns to Sweden; as an adult the daughter decides to return to U.S. and INS won't let her in; Supreme Court rules that she's entitled to return because she was a Natural Born Citizen and cites to the conditions it requires: in-country birth AND having TWO parents who were U.S. citizens at the time of the birth.

    McCain wasn't eligible either. The professor who wrote up the analysis for U of Michigan Law Review (September 2008) had that legal situation nailed correctly. "Panama John" wasn't even a CITIZEN until he was 11 months old because the U.S. was in-between two different laws impacting births overseas of children born to U.S. citizens. If it wasn't one side challenging Obama now, it would have been another side challenging McCain (if he had won). NJ lawsuit called b.s. to both of them and was filed before the election.

    Berg and his crazy "born in Kenya" tinfoil hat act has been the distracting circus that kept people's eyes off the real problem. Want to know who co-sponsored the NON-BINDING Senate Resolution S.511 that gave a "sense of the Senate" that McCain was "natural born"? None other than Barack Obama, that's who. It's a Senate Millionaires Club and they all help each other out.

  • ||

    People who want to get into more nitty-gritty can go check out the posts at this link, which followed the NJ case

    http://www.ventnorevoice.com/bulletinboard/showthread.php?t=1124

    The cases that were found to be launched by "possible wingnuts" making far-fetched claims -- and the document images they used -- are at this one.

    http://www.ventnorevoice.com/bulletinboard/showthread.php?t=1071

    One-stop shopping that's like a Cliff's Notes.

  • ||

    rx sid

    It is quite possible that Hussein O'bama does not have one of these:

    1963 Hawaiian Long Form COLB:
    http://a5.vox.com/6a00c2252293c4604a0100a80270e5000e-pi
    1962 Hawaiian Long Form COLB:
    http://passportsusa.com/wp-content/gallery/passportusa/edith_front.jpg



    for the same reason I don't. Neither he nor his parents applied for a birth certificate in either 1962 or 1963. Neither did mine.

    I have two copies of a document tiled "STANDARD CERTIFICATE OF LIVE BIRTH" issued in November, 1948 by the Board of Health of the Territory of Hawaii. It is photostatic copy of the original form filled out by the delivering physician at the US Naval Hospital, Aiea Heights Oahu T.H. and then filed at the Bureau of Vital statistics for the Territory of Hawaii. That's how most states (and Canadian Provinces) used to handle it. You applied for a copy of your BC and some clerk went into a bag room, got the original form, made a photostatic copy and then someone in authority certified that it was a "true copy" over a raised seal.

    Now, back in 2002 I though I had lost those documents, so I sent a check for $14.00 to the State of Hawaii, Department of Health, and guess what. They sent me two copies of a document that looks exactly like the one Hussein O got (you know, the one that's on line). Because, guess what, that's what the State of Hawaii issues for birth certificates these days. This is the only document you will receive as a "Certificate of Live Birth" from the Stae of Hawaii these days if you ask for one. I suspect that like most other states HI has long since put the original records on microfilm and stored them in secure storage to avoid the fire/flood/tornado scenario at the Courthouse and all.

    A) Hawaiian law, at the time of Obama's birth, allowed for FOREIGN born baby's to be registered in Hawaii via a 'Certificate of Live Birth':
    "[§338-17.8] Certificates for children born out of State..."



    As I said earlier, if our dark muslim overlord-to-be had been born in Fuckmeuptheass, Kenya that is what it would say on his Hawaiian birth certificate. That is what states that permit this procedure do. They issue a birth certificate showing the place of birth of the subject. It would not say he was born in Honolulu if he had been born in Fuckmeuptheass, Kenya.

    Your comment displays the exquisite combination of ignorance, stupidity and naivete that is foundation of belief in conspiracy theories.

    Good luck with that.

  • adam||

    Weigel is a douchebag.com

  • ||

    I am confused....why does anyone give a shit?

    Why shouldn't I be able to vote for a president not born in the USA? Yes, I am aware of the constitutional limitations, but I am talking about ethical constraints.
    If you support freedom how could you possibly be shilling not only for government ID, but for limiting individual freedom (ie the freedom to vote for whoever you like). I am also a bit confused, and this is me honestly being confused and not a rhetorical device, but If Goldwater and McCain were not born in the USA why all of the interest in Obama?

    Fuck 24AheadDotCom and his support of government issued "documentation"

  • Abdul Alhazred||

    My favorite conspiracy theory comes from the Aztlan folks, they say taht Mossad has Obama's real birth certificate and are using it to make him a puppet of Israel.

  • ||

    If you think that ONE parent and birth on U.S. soil is totally sufficient, produce a case that says that.



    I don't need to produce one, because I have the copy of the US Constitution in front of me, and it has this thing called the 14th Amendment in it. Of course, if LoneWanker is correct about the 16th Amendment never being ratified, perhaps the 14th wasn't either.

    Does the 14th define "Natural Born Citizen"? No. But neither does the rest of the constitution define it. You're just picking and choosing the definition to fit your beliefs. The SCOTUS has chosen not to hear cases on this matter, and their refusal to touch this with a ten foot pole trumps your wishes.

  • Sean Scallon||

    Let me guess Dave, they don't let you write posts like these at the Economist blog because they wish you write about more important things in the world than the Ron Paul newsletters, right?

    Thank God for Hit & Run, otherwise, where would Dave Weigel get to write about the Ron Paul newsletters? Hmmm? At Lew Rockwell.com?

    Next week we're going to tie global warming to the Ron Paul Newsletters. And if you think that's stretch to say the least, well I'm sure Dave will rack his brain to find some connection to tie the two.

    I just hope you're not shirking your duties at your new employer to do so.

  • ||

    The funny thing about the BC issue for Obama is that the first big case was brought by Berg, an attorney in Philly, a democrat and a staunch Hillary backer.

    BUT NOOOOO the MSM and bloggers refuse to do their home work and point out that important fact.

    If I were prez elect and my birth certificate were in question, I'd release it since I have nothing to hide. But perhaps his argument is he is helping the economy by insuring people spend money to fight it.

    One way to stimulate the economy. :)

  • GG||

    So Weigel just reared his huge head to fling poo and stink up the place? No Friday Political Thread, no Politics 'n' Prog?

    the Economist blog

    They'd better have a good fact checker:

    Most Democrats in the House of Representatives opposed the bail-out.

  • VM||

    Jake Boone, yet again proves what a gentleman and scholar he is.

    And rxsid was entered as "Random Morons" section.

    well played, Sir!

    He wins three slightly used merkins from Merkin World. Lonewacko took the moderately soiled MexicanMerkins, voluntarily paying twice what the asking price was, when he learned of the level of soil on said MexicanMerkin.

  • ||

    David Weigel = A$$ Wipe...

    I just adore the 12th grade scheme of having trolls reinforce controversy to up the Web/Site hit rate.

    2 bit BS...

    Hey, if everyone is so "CORRECT" in their stance, why can't, BO, US Senator be granted a Security Clearance with the FBI, CIA, NRO, NSA, DIS, or frankly ANY agency running classified operations?

    Yeah... and don't give the unbacked "He did drugs and NEO-agencies wingnut policies. There's plenty of security clearances granted Top Secret, SI/SBI/SCI with prior usage.

    Just look at his complete past... I'm just wondering why "those agencies" won't reveal the reason(s).

  • ||

    Ron Paul has done more for the cause of libertarianism than Reason magazine or any other beltway libertarian institution ever has or ever will. Yea, keep up the great work opposing seat belt laws.

    I used to read Reason too, but I've graduated to real libertarianism via lewrockwell.com

  • VM||

    speaking for many regulars at H&R, we're really pleased that NJ devil took the time to post, thereby making "Weigal" successful.

    oooh! can you make a muscle for us LS? run along then, but we're also happy that you're running up the post count.

    Didn't you know that Weigal (sic) is a shill for Big Count?

  • forklift maniac||

    I'm mulling a law suit against "Reason" for false advertisement in its name.

    Or maybe that would backfire and make people sympathetic to this sellout publication and its douchebag writers... cough Weigel cough.

  • VM||

    yeah, yeah Staplerfahrer Klaus, aka "maniac". yeah yeah.

    funny that you gaiz are so hot on the constitution party...

    your precious "doctor" paul is nothing but a silly person. silly. no more libertarian than the constitution party - the party he endorsed!

    but silly. when you get your driver's license, you might grow up a bit.

  • 24AheadDotCom||

    Things I learned today:

    1. DaveW has actually left Reason. I thought he was just moping around in his van down by the river.

    2. DaveW has his own site and not only that he started his blog a few months before I started posting daily posts at my site. Since I've had other websites for well over a decade that doesn't mean that much.

    3. You have to login to his site in order to post comments there.

    4. I'm not on his blogroll. I don't run any blogs, so that's understandable.

    5. You have to login to comment at Weigel's new site. Unfortunately, I already have about a hundred logins at other sites, and that's too many.

  • VM||

    Gaaaahhh blargblarg. CrazyTard. froth froth froth.

    (just so wackoff doesn't have the last comment)

  • ||

    Good job, Weigel keep it up! You are helping making Reason magazine losing subscribers and influence a plenty! You are like a self-destructive missile or bomb! Most of WND did not support RP BTW, certainly not its editor. Paul was to be an op ed contributor, but at the end not. Alan Keyes is one of the WND reporters. I'm sure many of those Republicans involved with the issue of the Obama birth cert. issue or Blago did not vote for Ron Paul, yet you make as if this is exclusively an issue advanced by Ron Paul supporters. How pathetic!

    Reason should totally fire you and bar from publishing here if they want to survive amidst the current economic slumpdown.

    It is the likes of you that would probably have denounced any insinuation that Bernie Madoff could be involved in a Ponzi-scheme as a "paleocon anti-semitic) nutty conspiracy theory...

  • stefan||

    Look at www.campaignforliberty.com all substantive issues and articles, nothing about Blago, Obama birth cert. etc. Not that Weigel would mention this. The whole initiative vs. the Obama cert was started by a serious lawyer, who thought the whole idea was wacky initially, long year Democrat and NAACP member: Phil Berg, who supporter Hillary Clinton. Weigel just keeps on making himself ridiculous and laughable.
    Keep it up!

  • ||

    The consequences of the Supreme Court declining to address the US Constitution's "natural born citizen" clause on the morning of Monday 12/15/08 - thereafter enabling the College of Electors to transform the crisis from "law" to "political and Congressional", leading to the 'inauguration' of Mr. Obama, are nothing less than catastrophic. Lawsuits by members of the military challenging his 'commander in chief' status are INEVITABLE. And a military takeover to oust the "usurper" may be inevitable as well. Where is the media? This is no "tin foil hat" joke.

  • ||

    My, oh my, but the crazy is flowing freely here. Was there a full moon last night?

    Hey, if everyone is so "CORRECT" in their stance, why can't, BO, US Senator be granted a Security Clearance with the FBI, CIA, NRO, NSA, DIS, or frankly ANY agency running classified operations?



    And the evidence for this claim is found where, exactly?

    Shit made up by crazy people at free republic (but I repeat myself) doesn't count as evidence.

    Besides which, plenty of American citizens (natural born or otherwise are denied security clearances. So even if it were true that BO couldn't get one it would have no bearing on the status of his citizenship.

  • Todd||

    Any disagreements you may have with some of Ron Paul's supporters should in no way affect your opinion of Ron Paul. If a poll were taken showing that convicted murderers favor Obama, should that be held against Obama?

  • GILMORE||

    We have now witnessed the nexus between Lew Rockwellian Paultards, LoneWackos MexicanPowerFighters, and people who think, well, "I got nothin gainst plain ol niggers in the white house but goddamit cant no one trust a half kenyan hawaiian, it's just too suspicious."

    I am glad these people get all worked up about this shit. Otherwise, they might actually be out in society, interacting, breeding, etc.

  • VM||

    thanks, todd. Paul is still a fundie tool. who really doesn't know jack about economics.

    you're right. much better.

  • ||

    """"I am glad these people get all worked up about this shit. Otherwise, they might actually be out in society, interacting, breeding, etc.""""

    Sadly they don't stay in front of the computer 24/7

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