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Reductio ad Hitlerum: It Never Goes Out of Style
Now that Naomi Wolf's breathless tale of America's collapse into fascism has been further repudiated (unless, that is, Hitlerian countries routinely elect people like Barack Obama), perhaps it's time for the hysterics on the right to tremble in fear at the forthcoming machtergreifung. First, the psychopathic radio host and "world famous herbal expert" Michael Savage hosts former Hitler Youth member Hilmar von Campe "to discuss similarities between President-elect Obama and the rise of totalitarianism under Hitler." Not much you can say to that, except to point out that beyond the big, excited crowds, there are absolutely no similarities. And then we have 1990s relic Newt Gingrich bemoaning what he views as the thuggish behavior of those opposed to California's Prop. 8: "Look, I think there is a gay and secular fascism in this country that wants to impose its will on the rest of us, is prepared to use violence, to use harassment." Gay fascism in America? Perhaps he's thinking of Austria.
After eight years of Bush, remember, it was deeply serious people like the New Yorker's Steve Coll and New York Times columnist Frank Rich that, in the final months of the 2008 election, eluded to a Weimar-like atmosphere at John McCain rallies. But their guy won. And fascism is over, if you want it. No liberal Von Hindenburg will cede power to the forces of darkness! It is early yet, though, and expect much more of this nonsense of the fringes of the right this time around.
|11.19.08 @ 6:25PM|#
The new government office has a motto of "Helpfulness Is The Language Everyone Reads" so it can't be all bad.
Orange Line Special|11.19.08 @ 6:58PM|#
If not the F-word, what word should we call those on this list? Make sure to see those DK threads before replying.
|11.19.08 @ 7:01PM|#
Gingrich and the loonies on the Far Right are hysterical about
gay fascists and gay thugs. What makes gays facists and thugs you
may ask? From what I've read from the Right the mere fact that gays
are protesting their unequal status before the law makes them
thugs. Apparently the Far Right believes the Mormons can pour
millions of dollars into California to strip gays of marriage
rights and that is just peachy -- its democratic and free speech.
But if gays protest this with peaceful marches that is intimidation
and threatening. Even more they Yes on 8 campaign said that gays
have "no right" to boycott businesses that are antigay and
shouldn't complain about what the Mormons did because complaining
violates the rights of Mormons.
The Right has some very warped ideas as to what is or isn't a
right. Neither protests or boycots violate rights.
|11.19.08 @ 7:02PM|#
beyond the big, excited crowds, there are absolutely no
similarities
Not quite true. There are clear signs of a cult of personality --
though I don't think Obama is seriously cultivating this the way
Hitler did, the parallels are clear. Ignoring this weakens what I
think is Michael's overall sound argument.
SavageNation RAHHHHRRR|11.19.08 @ 7:05PM|#
I don't agree with Machael Savage most of the time, but he is
certainly a learned individual who brings a novel perspective to
the table. ...If only each of us thought as independently as Savage
and didn't allow ourselves to be herded intellectually like
media-obsessed sheep...
While I'm at it, "psychopath" is a pejorative term that is both
politically incorrect and outdated in the psychological
lexicon.
|11.19.08 @ 7:14PM|#
While I'm at it, "psychopath" is a pejorative term that is
both politically incorrect
What? Psychopaths don't like it? Waaah!
and outdated in the psychological lexicon.
Scientific American was comfortable with it just
one year ago.
|11.19.08 @ 7:25PM|#
Well that may be, J sub D, but it is correct that psychopath is not the term used by psychologists anymore. For a while they switched to "sociopath" and now they use the cumbersome "anti-social personality disorder". But as for it being politically correct, I don't give a fig.
Syd Henderson|11.19.08 @ 7:27PM|#
The Obama "cult of personality" is reminding me more of JFK than
either Hitler or Stalin. Some of FDR as well. I expect to see
Michelle Obama giving tours of the White House and setting
fashion.
The big difference is that Obama won't be screwing everything in a
skirt like JFK. At least, there haven't been any rumors about that,
and if there were, we'd be hearing about them.
|11.19.08 @ 7:41PM|#
""Look, I think there is a gay and secular fascism in this
country that wants to impose its will on the rest of us, is
prepared to use violence, to use harassment."
Yeah, yeah, yeah, black people and women were trying to force their
will on us when they wanted rights too. People who make that
idiotic claim don't realize or care that they are the one's trying
to impose their will on others.
Gay people want the freedom to marry, that doesn't affect people
like Savage, except they have to see them act like married people.
That's what offends them. I'm sure many white people were offended
when blacks were freed. Many men were offended to see women on line
to vote. People who are offended when others are granted a freedom
or right, are not pro-freedom.
Orange Line Special|11.19.08 @ 7:46PM|#
Shelby: BHO is clearly cultivating it through various forms of MythMaking and very clearly cultivating it through surrogates; using the latter is also how he launched various attacks.
OBAMA IS A SECRET NAZI|11.19.08 @ 8:04PM|#
yesss yesss, the secret MythMaking SurrogateCoordinating
cultivating of racialists who will rise up against the white race
and straights and put them all in camps and then use them as a
corps for his LetsMexicfyAmerica plan, serving fruit pickers as
social servants and have to learn spanish
the plans are obvious! we must ask ToughQuestions! Then we will
masturbate together!
Neu Mejican|11.19.08 @ 8:23PM|#
but it is correct that psychopath is not the term used by
psychologists anymore
You may want to inform this psychologist:
http://psych.unm.edu/faculty/lg_kiehl.html
Look in particular at his article from Sept 2008 in Science
http://www.mrn.org/docs/Science-Kiehl%209.5.pdf
It is not a diagnosis in the DSM-IV, but that does not mean it is
not a term that is used, or recognized.
Gay Marriage|11.19.08 @ 8:26PM|#
Move over Government-funded stem cell research.
I'm the most important cosmotarian issue.
Sanction this, bitch|11.19.08 @ 8:49PM|#
I believe the correct term is government-sanctioned sodomy.
Lefiti|11.19.08 @ 9:04PM|#
"...expect much more of this nonsense of the fringes of the
right this time around."
Wait a minute, I thought you guys were the fringes of the
right.
Kolohe|11.19.08 @ 9:25PM|#
I think it's alluded, not eluded...
Well, his name is "Frank", so he probably knows something about
eluding Nazis.
|11.19.08 @ 9:38PM|#
"...we'd be hearing about them."
You mean just like the MSM reported on that little POS husband of
mine checking that little bitches oil. Give me a break! If it
weren't for the Inquirer, it would be me moving into the White
House and not Obama. Just as well, my POS hound-dog husband would
have just gone all Monica once he got there anyway.
|11.20.08 @ 2:41AM|#
"The big difference is that Obama won't be screwing everything
in a skirt like JFK. At least, there haven't been any rumors about
that, and if there were, we'd be hearing about them."
Well, you didn't hear them while JFK was alive, either. Press
adoration goes a long way.
|11.20.08 @ 3:57AM|#
The press was also oddly circumspect about Sarah Palin's well documented infidelities with her husband's business partner. And who here really believes a coonhound like McCain has been faithful to Cindy all this time? I think most of America is tired of this stuff, unless you're a complete idiot like Edwards or Gary Hart and flaunt it in people's faces, the press gives most politicians a pass.
|11.20.08 @ 8:54AM|#
Unless Obama is getting blowjobs in the oval office, most people
don't care who he screws. If I were married to a shrew like
Michelle, I would screw around to.
For 8 years we heard morons on the left call Bush Hitler and I
don't recall Reason ever being too concerned about it. Now a few
morons on the right call Obama Hitler and Reason gets its panties
in a wawd over it. If it wasn't worth commenting on then, why is it
worth commenting on now?
|11.20.08 @ 9:37AM|#
I think most of America is tired of this stuff...
Bullshit, the majority lap it up.
I only care about someone is cheating on their spouse as far as I
will learn not to trust anything the person says. Really, if
someone is willing to lie to their spouse, why should I assume that
they are telling me the truth?
Let me write first that impeaching Clinton was probably the
stupidest thing the Republicans could have ever done and the
impeachment had zero to do with Ms. Monica Lewinsky.
Clinton screwing around with Monica was different. She was an
employee that worked for the president and not some woman he met in
a bar. In the terms of many feminists, Clinton abused his position
of power over a subordinate. If Clinton had been anyone else other
than a president that at least played lip service to the goals of
those who claim to be feminist leaders, do you really think these
feminist leaders would have stood by their man. JFC, if Clinton had
been the CEO of one of those evil corporations and he'd had messed
with an intern 30 years his junior, the feminists would have been
crying for his head. Instead, Clinton was able to get all the head
he wanted.
Let me repeat: I still think it was stupid for the Republicans to
impeach Clinton. Christ, if they had suceeded in convicting him
we'd have ended up with Al Gore as Prez. As much as I may have
disagreed with Clinton, Gore would not have been an improvment.
|11.20.08 @ 9:46AM|#
The press was also oddly circumspect about Sarah Palin's
well documented infidelities with her husband's business
partner.
1. Can you offer any documentation on this other than rantings on
DailyKos?
2. Do you believe that the Inquirer would not be like a terrier
with a rat if there was anything to those accusations?
3. Even if true, screwing your husband's business partner is
different than screwing your subordinate at work, especially if
those involved are government employees. The former is a private
affair between spouses, the latter of public interest.
Neu Mejican|11.20.08 @ 10:26AM|#
John,
If I were married to a shrew like Michelle, I would screw
around to.
You are a very small pathetic man.
Really.
Small.
Pathetic.
|11.20.08 @ 10:59AM|#
The problem isn't that Obama is a fascist. The problem is that
Obama supports an ultra-powerful centralized state, one in which
the federal government has nearly limitless power.
It all seems all fine and dandy to progressives and leftists, as
Obama shares their views and so makes for a benevolent dictator.
But what happens when the candidate you don't like (and that WILL
eventually happen!), gets nearly total control over the economy,
education, health care, police apparatus, etc.?
Do the "Laissez Faire is dead!!!" crowd think the economy,
education, healthcare, will all be great when a Republican is given
the reins to the Socialist Republic? Do they trust the next G. W.
Bush to micromanage their banking, energy, health care, education,
all flawlessly and benevolently.
No! People think they are not fascists if they have good
intentions. But only a fool imagines that people who agree with
themselves will always be in power. Progressives want a benevolent
dictatorship, and then cry 'fascism' when the dictatorship turns
out to be less benevolent than they imagines.
So, while Obama is not a fascist himself, he supports a type of
authoritarian government that the coming fascist dictator will be
only happy to exploit.
|11.20.08 @ 11:15AM|#
Where is this world where "Naomi Wolf's breathless tale of America's collapse into fascism has been ... repudiated"? The rise of fascism in this country has nothing to do with party, but with culture and ruling class -- and that has not changed. Indeed, considering Obama's appointments, it couldn't be clearer that it hasn't changed. When the banks of Manhatten are in flames, the mansions of Long Island and Connecticut in rubble, all foreign influences purged from American government, the Fed abandoned, the dollar again backed with real value, barbers, teachers, and factory workers in residence in Congress, and a humble doctor living in the White House -- then we'll know something has changed.
|11.20.08 @ 11:20AM|#
unless Hitlerian countries routinely elect people like
Barack Obama
You mean charismatic demagogues who take office during an economic
crisis?
I keed, I keed!
The press was also oddly circumspect about Sarah Palin's well
documented infidelities with her husband's business
partner.
Gosh, we haven't had a completely unsupported Palin smear on over a
week! They are actually easy to spot, due to their total lack of
linkage.
|11.20.08 @ 11:21AM|#
But what happens when the candidate you don't like (and that
WILL eventually happen!), gets nearly total control over the
economy, education, health care, police apparatus, etc.?
I can tell that RC'z Fifth Iron Law is going to get a quite a
workout during the Obama administration:
Any power used for you today will be used against you
tomorrow.
|11.20.08 @ 5:59PM|#
Johann Hari, an openly gay journalist, who writes regularly for
the Independent. wrote this piece for the Huffington Post - "The
Strange, Strange Story of the Gay Fascists" by Johann Hari
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/johann-hari/the-strange-strange-story_b_136697.html
He can't be called a neo-con, he's very left wing. It makes perfect
sense to me, gays are showing themselves to be extremely fascistic
since the election. As Hari writes, Hitler never would have risen
to power without gay extremists like Ernst Rohm, but far from the
homosexual utopia they thought they were getting, they were on the
receiving end of the torture they hadn't minded imposing on
others.
|11.23.08 @ 8:22AM|#
All is well. There's no need to worry. Don't read the book. Don't look behind the crutain. Don't research history on your own. Never trust the word of someone who lived through it. Just take Moynihan's word for it.
|11.23.08 @ 11:50AM|#
This article goes into no specifics for or against the arguments
justifying the concerns of the Obama push to the left.
It makes no mention of Obama's own remarks in his OWN words. He
stated similarities between Nazi Germany and here already taking
place. That seems more over the top then the arguments warning
about the Obama leftist ideology.
It was Obama who spoke about a domestic civilian security force as
well funded as the United states military! Why were references to
these remarks pulled from USA today and some other
publications????????
|11.23.08 @ 12:24PM|#
Fascism and Nationalism can exist together as they did with
Hitler but it doesn't mean they cannot exist apart. Classic fascism
is the government deciding who wins in business (political class)
and who does not (non-political class)...sound familiar?
The new "Nationalism" is "political correctness" combined with
"social justice" and "financial justice".
Instead of a pantheon of Aryan/Nordic gods to motivate the
Nationalistic Jungian myth, this time around it is all of us
"saving the planet".
You cannot, by definition, have a nationalistic movement when the
ultimate target is much larger.
|11.23.08 @ 12:30PM|#
This country needs to get beyond the left/right rhetoric. It so
much easy to see without these blinders. We have reach a point
where your political beliefs do not matter. it is so easy to see
that the political system and players are being manipulated by Big
Bankers. Demand that the individual rights be restored and the
country also be free from Big Bankers(Federal Reserve, IMF, World
Bank, etc.)
I predict Obama
1. Will not repealed the patriot act or enact some greater rights
robbing act.
2. Will be as warlike or greater as Bush but in the guise of Using
the UN or an World Body.
This is the change we are in store for.
United we stand(dont drink the obama koolaide)
Divided we will fall(falling in the left/right divisions)
|11.23.08 @ 3:14PM|#
Moynihan is a popular opinion spew piece and apparently clueless
of history.
Read what Von Campe says, not that Obumma is the new Hitler, but
that Hitler rose to power through the democratic process. Which is
where America seems or is trending towards.
Nanny government pansies that cannot do ANYTHING for themselves
without the government telling them to.
The conservative party has been demonized as haters, get rich on
someone elses labor etc. Which is complete bull crap!
Think for yourselves, do for yourselves and put the government
where it belongs in control of NOTHING.
|11.24.08 @ 2:32PM|#
Moynihan is an ignoranus, ignorant of historical fact. He would be wise to listen to the counsel of those who have gone before. This guy lived through it and Mr. Ignoranus here poo-poos it. Remember, those who fail to learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.
Mad Max|11.24.08 @ 6:40PM|#
"When the banks of Manhatten are in flames, the mansions of Long
Island and Connecticut in rubble"
Wait, I'm studying Long Island. I don't live in a mansion, and I
don't necessarily bond in a deep, meaningful way with everyone who
lives in Long Island and NY, but what's with burning Long Island
mansions? What kind of crap is this? If this is a plot to make me a
Yankee sympathizer, you may eventually succeed.
|11.24.08 @ 7:28PM|#
I don't think there's anything fascist about Obama's goals or
personality as such, but I don't think a cult of personality which
rallies youth to a call for a form of change which will sweep away
the old order and establish a new kind of post-partisan politics in
which we all get along because it's just so right how could you
disagree... is exactly unlike the tone of 1930s movements all
around the world, either.
And yes, I thought that before reading Liberal Fascism.
jk|11.24.08 @ 9:54PM|#
"No liberal Von Hindenburg will cede power to the forces of
darkness!"
The fake conservative Bush just took over the financial sector of
the US economy. The economics of Fascism are up and running. Only
the pageantry is missing. Enter the new president.
|11.25.08 @ 11:08AM|#
Whenever this subject comes up, people always make the mistake of thinking fascism is strictly about genocide, but that aspect of german fascism was unique and not at all what von Campe is referring to when he says Obama is like Hitler. If you haven't read "Hitler's Beneficiaries" by the respected German historian, Gotz Aly, you should. After reading that, you will understand it is Obama's love affair with centralized power and socialism, his proposed "give-aways" to buy the loyalty of the common Volk, his willingness to silence all opposition through intimidation, as well as his demagogic style that are like Hitler. If these things don't concern you, it just shows how primed we are as a people to give up our autonomy in exchange for false promises that the state will "fix everything."
|11.26.08 @ 5:58AM|#
Why is it that 2nd Amendment supporters associate more rights
with less laws, but the left thinks more laws, rules,
regulations,edicts,statues is more free?
Every year what is left of free pursuits are sucked into the law
books, the code books. Each pursuit then sliced like sausage by
time, place, age of actors and all to be controlled,regulated and
such by various government agents.
This is the path to secure liberty?
|11.26.08 @ 6:42AM|#
When the sum total of your historical knowledge is derived from
the Discovery Channel and the Military History channel, it does
seem like the only things that happened in world history are the
Nazis and World War II. So I guess your historical allusions are
going to come from that, and not classical Greece, ancient Egypt,
the Roman empire, the British empire, Medieval France or any other
kind of history. When was the last time you heard someone compare
some present-day pol to Marius (Roman consul) or Pericles (General
and statesman of Athens) or even Napoleon? Yeah, I thought
not...
BTW, The word that eluded you is alluded - 'eluded to a Weimar-like
atmosphere'
|11.26.08 @ 10:17AM|#
Well Savage is just a moron. Not really a conservative or a
liberal, just a raving moron.
As for Gingrich, look we are told that the anti-communist black
list smacked of fascism, so why isn't it fair game to say the same
about the pro-gay-marriage black list?
Ultimately there is a creepy cult of personality element to this
election that is worrisome. that kind of short-circuited logic can
set the groundwork for a serious violation of democratic values,
but it won't necessarily lead to that. i mean, my gosh, there are
people calling on Bush to step down early to usher in the era of
Obama even faster. There are people claiming that his victory has
led people to have more sex. There are people already calling for a
national holiday. There are people already comparing Obama to truly
great presidents like Lincoln and FDR (I don't like all that FDR
did, but regardless he did have greatness in him). Its creepy and
really is not the kind of thinking suited for a free people. Its
hyperbole to go the full Hitler on that, but we can't be so
allergic to Hitler references that we end up ignoring warnings from
history.
|11.26.08 @ 12:57PM|#
"From what I've read from the Right the mere fact that gays are
protesting their unequal status before the law makes them
thugs."
No, it's more of their thuggish behaviour. Calling people nigers,
trashing churches, that sort of thing. Not to mention the issue
isnt the unequal status, they are free to marry someone of the
opposite sex, same as everyone else.
"Apparently the Far Right believes the Mormons can pour millions of
dollars into California to strip gays of marriage rights and that
is just peachy -- its democratic and free speech."
Possibly because it is.
"But if gays protest this with peaceful marches that is
intimidation and threatening."
No, its the intimidation and threatening marches that do
that.
Oh, and I voted against the constitutional amendment in Ohio back
in 2004. Would have voted that way in California if I could. Just
tired of bullshit pretending to be political discourse.
|11.26.08 @ 2:56PM|#
Nah, buzz -- if you were really tired of bullshit, you wouldn't
be able to spout pre-packaged stupidity like this:
"Not to mention the issue isnt the unequal status, they are free to
marry someone of the opposite sex, same as everyone else."
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