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But Then You Came to My Bailout Rescue
Feel like owning a car company? Me neither, but it's not like we have much of a choice.
General Motors and Cerberus Capital Management have asked the U.S. government for roughly $10 billion in an unprecedented rescue package to support a merger between GM and Chrysler, two sources with direct knowledge of the talks said on Monday.
The government funding would include roughly $3 billion in exchange for preferred stock in the merged automaker, according to one of the sources, who was not authorized to discuss the matter publicly.
The U.S. Treasury Department is considering a request for direct aid to facilitate the merger and a decision could come this week, sources familiar with the still-developing government response said earlier on Monday.
An injection of $3 billion in equity to support a GM acquisition of Chrysler would be roughly equivalent to the current, depressed value of the top U.S. automaker.
That last paragraph is worth a re-read.
If everything in this country that's "too big to fail" is bailed out by the federal government, with cash injections equivalent to the market value of the crappy company, what will be left? And how much will it be worth?
a name before submitting the f|10.28.08 @ 10:57AM|#
An injection of $3 billion in equity to support a GM acquisition of Chrysler would be roughly equivalent to the current, depressed value of the top U.S. automaker.
What does "depressed value" mean? I think they just mean
"value."
Alan Vanneman|10.28.08 @ 11:04AM|#
Well, if we're going to own General Motors, I want a damn Cadillac. Now! That's socialism I can appreciate!
|10.28.08 @ 11:06AM|#
There needs to be enough federal oversight to protect the sleek and timeless lines of the Chrysler Sebring.
Jerry|10.28.08 @ 11:07AM|#
Preferred stock? It's not as if GM is going to pay out any dividends in the coming, say what, hundred years.
gorgonzola\'s foil|10.28.08 @ 11:08AM|#
Why doesn't the GM pension fund (or heck, the UAW themselves)
tender an offer for 100% equity in the company? They might have $3B
available, and then union incentives will actually be strongly
aligned with management if they own the place.
A quick google shows the pension fund had $90B total value, with
$2B over committments in 2004.
Come on workers, now is the time to take ownership of the means of
production! (/trotskyist)
bubba|10.28.08 @ 11:09AM|#
"In addition to its equity stake, the U.S. government is also being asked to provide support for the GM-Chrysler merger by taking over some $3 billion in pension obligations under the terms of a proposal now before the government for review, the first source said. "
|10.28.08 @ 11:12AM|#
C'mon, people! America's rental fleets demand a continuous supply of crappy cars to offer to unsuspecting foreign visitors! This vital industry must be saved!!
|10.28.08 @ 11:13AM|#
I knew this would happen. I posted it on these pages.
I'm the vangaurd of a new political movement. The Cassandrarians.
Inspire by a another poster, I coined the term just this morning. I
may be using it for quite some time.
Guy Montag|10.28.08 @ 11:15AM|#
It seems all of you vehicle users (as opposed to motorheads)
have missed the major outrage here: GM and MOPAR in the same
firm!!!!! AAAGGGGGG!!!!
Okay, this is a true crisis now, just talking about that sort of a
merger.
Well, at least it is not ford and MOPAR.
BTW, LOVE the "Smoke out big government" chick in the left margin
ad.
|10.28.08 @ 11:19AM|#
I can see it coming now: when the next summer blockbuster tanks, Hollywood can ask the feds to bail out the movie! Certain stars are too big to fail, you know (Travolta, I'm looking at you).
TallDave|10.28.08 @ 11:20AM|#
/agree on the smoking chick
I can't bear the thought of my Corvette being made by the
government. That just seems horribly wrong.
Citizen Nothing|10.28.08 @ 11:22AM|#
Oh, the government won't be making Corvettes. No, no, no. Hybrids only from now on.
Guy Montag|10.28.08 @ 11:25AM|#
I can't bear the thought of my Corvette being made by the
government.
I can't bear the thought of some GM toadie even looking at one of
the new Dodge Challengers during assembly (or any time
before/after).
Guy Montag|10.28.08 @ 11:26AM|#
CN,
[psst] some of us MOPAR guys have been talking about our Organic
Hydrocarbon Powered Hybrids for years. Don't tell the government
folks, or anybody at TNR, what it really is, okay?
Ska|10.28.08 @ 11:31AM|#
can see it coming now: when the next summer blockbuster
tanks, Hollywood can ask the feds to bail out the movie! Certain
stars are too big to fail, you know (Travolta, I'm looking at
you).
You must not be counting the additional tax credits in the bailout
bill, as well as all the tax credits to film in other states and in
Canada.
TallDave|10.28.08 @ 11:31AM|#
You know what REALLY sucks about this? Obama's first act as POTUS will be a government bailout of the NYT.
Guy Montag|10.28.08 @ 11:32AM|#
PB,
Not sure, but I am thinking that guy who was in The Lost
Boys, from the MOPAR commercials.
|10.28.08 @ 11:32AM|#
I can't wait for my first glimpse of a car designed by Henry Waxman and Barney Frank.
Bingo|10.28.08 @ 11:32AM|#
Err... is there ANYTHING in Chrysler's current lineup worth a
damn? Aside from the very-diluted Jeep trademark?
And obligatory prebuttal of Guy that his nostalgia for certain
vehicle names and fanboyism is clouding his vision of the
company.
TallDave|10.28.08 @ 11:33AM|#
I can't wait for my first glimpse of a car designed by Henry
Waxman and Barney Frank.
ROFL!
|10.28.08 @ 11:38AM|#
I think we should put Wagoner in charge of the Ministry for
Going Nowhere Fast.
I was reading an article about this earlier which said, as I
recall, GM stock was nearly $100.- per share when (fix yer) Wagoner
took over.
Guy Montag|10.28.08 @ 11:38AM|#
Bingo,
Just how unfamiliar wre you with these and how does
liking them constitute 'fanboyism'?
kinnath|10.28.08 @ 11:46AM|#
Guy, I love the look of the challenger remix, and the camaro
remix, and etc.
But part of me is severely depressed that the best and brightest
engineers in the US can do nothing but copy forty year old sheet
metal designs.
TallDave|10.28.08 @ 11:48AM|#
Does the Challenger have a T-top? I'm generally too tall to sit
up in anything with a hardtop.
I was out in 41-degree temps today with the top off. The gf thinks
I'm crazy, but it's not that bad, and this might be the last week
this year.
|10.28.08 @ 11:52AM|#
Err... is there ANYTHING in Chrysler's current lineup worth
a damn? Aside from the very-diluted Jeep trademark?
No there is not.
I bought a new fully loaded Chevy Impala in February. What does
this mean to my resale value in three years?
|10.28.08 @ 11:53AM|#
Come on workers, now is the time to take ownership of the
means of production!
Well, they don't want to have to pay for it.
Geez.
TallDave|10.28.08 @ 11:53AM|#
Hmm, 425hp kicks some ass. Vettes are
prettier, though.
Or used to be, anyway. The hydroformed 2004 C5s were the last, best
real Vettes, imo. The C6s were deliberately Euro-ized for better
sales across the pond. Bastards.
The newest one does come with 450hp, tho.
|10.28.08 @ 11:59AM|#
This ride during the slippery slope is a lot faster than I expected. What do they have this thing greased up with anyway?
LarryA|10.28.08 @ 12:01PM|#
If everything in this country that's "too big to fail" is
bailed out by the federal government, with cash injections
equivalent to the market value of the crappy company, what will be
left?
The government.
And how much will it be worth?
$0.00
What does "depressed value" mean?
What the company is worth, as opposed to what the company dreams it
should be worth.
Bingo|10.28.08 @ 12:02PM|#
Guy: I wouldn't consider a large, heavy, 2-door V8 to be
"innovative" in an era when gas prices seem to fluctuate up to
$4/gal at the slightest hint of future scarcity. Add on to that
fact that a lot of people are feeling squeezed by the current
economy and are unlikely to buy a new car. If they do need a new
car, they will likely choose something economical and practical.
The big 2.5 have set themselves up for disaster. Maybe 35 years ago
it was a good idea, but not now.
Muscle-cars had a time and a place, it's time to let go.
Warty|10.28.08 @ 12:05PM|#
I bought a new fully loaded Chevy Impala
I found your problem.
Muscle cars are awesome, but Detroit is insane if it expects them
to save its ass. Their best bet is to churn out a bunch of Honda
Fit clones, and fast.
|10.28.08 @ 12:12PM|#
I wouldn't trade my work-in-progress Porsche 914
Karmann Ghia mk IV for ten of those New!Challengers.
|10.28.08 @ 12:12PM|#
Err... is there ANYTHING in Chrysler's current lineup worth
a damn? Aside from the very-diluted Jeep
trademark?
I bought a 2005 RAM 3500, Cummins Turbo-diesel brute of a truck off
of my Credit Union's repo lot in July. That is a kick-ass
truck!
Actually, I have thought for years that Chrysler's styling is the
best in the US. I realize that is purely a cosmetic thing, but I
like pretty girls for the same reason and it seems rational until
their ugly, dark internal workings are exposed.
KyleG|10.28.08 @ 12:13PM|#
I've been a fain of GM's powertrain for a few years and am looking to pick up a Camaro SS in about a year and a half. But his bailout shit is angering me more and more. ...so conflicted.
|10.28.08 @ 12:14PM|#
Boy, who would have ever guessed that it would be banking and auto industry CEOs who would lead the socialist revolution.
Bingo|10.28.08 @ 12:15PM|#
I will admit that, aside from the abominable PT Cruiser, the interiors of all the Chrysler rentals that I've driven have been much nicer than their GM, Ford, or even Mazda counterparts.
Neu Mejican|10.28.08 @ 12:15PM|#
I can't bear the thought of my Corvette being made by the
government.
How many of you would have guessed that TallDave drove a
Corvette?
All of you, right?
Bingo|10.28.08 @ 12:17PM|#
Just remembered that a) the PT Cruiser exists and b) it got 23 mpg HIGHWAY for me. Fuck Chrysler, they can burn.
|10.28.08 @ 12:19PM|#
Pushrods! It's the twenty-first century, for crying out
loud.
The cylinder head on my 90 cubic inch Honda will probably flow more
air than the the head off a small block chevy. Those bozos have
barely progressed beyond wooden wheels; it's time to shut them down
and let Hyundai pick through the bones.
|10.28.08 @ 12:19PM|#
I rented a Chrysler 300 in Vegas and drove to Tucson. I had a pretty good ride and was comfortable, but frankly, a Lexus or even a Toyota Avalon is light years better in terms of power, ride, comfort, and controls.
TallDave|10.28.08 @ 12:28PM|#
An injection of $3 billion in equity to support a GM
acquisition of Chrysler would be roughly equivalent to the current,
depressed value of the top U.S. automaker.
The problem is this assumes the market value is wrong (as alluded
to by other posters such as LarryA) we're better off if these large
companies don't fail. I'm not sure there's much real evidence for
that. A problem for one company is an opportunity for its
competitors... an opportunity that is now lost.
The companies that didn't screw up and go bankrupt are now, in
effect, being punished by the government.
Fresno Bob|10.28.08 @ 12:29PM|#
The new challengers are deeply homoerotic, but the gay community just ain't big enough or wealthy enough to prop up Chrysler. Bad move.
|10.28.08 @ 12:35PM|#
So $3 billion is the new threshold for "too big to fail"? Why
stop there? My local dry cleaner has been experiencing cash flow
problems recently, and he's the ONLY one my town. Strikes me as too
big to fail as well.
On the other hand, we could let GM and Chrysler both go down the
hole and see what happens. My guess is, not much.
|10.28.08 @ 1:08PM|#
On the other hand, we could let GM and Chrysler both go down
the hole and see what happens. My guess is, not much.
Ford would likely return to profitability.
For a short while.
Jim|10.28.08 @ 1:11PM|#
Here in Michigan, the prospect is pretty damn frightening.
Currently we already have the highest unemployment and foreclosure
rate in the nation.
The libertarian in me knows the government shouldn't get involved;
if the private sector won't fund a merger, then it must be a bad
idea. Still, as an ex-Chrysler employee who lives here, the
situation is pretty grim.
Naga Sadow|10.28.08 @ 1:32PM|#
Kyle G.,
An SS? Not bad. I gotta wait till 2011 for my new Z28. Assuming
that GM is still around to make it.
|10.28.08 @ 1:44PM|#
Err... is there ANYTHING in Chrysler's current lineup worth
a damn? Aside from the very-diluted Jeep trademark?
The minivans. And approximately $11 billion in cash that Chrysler
is reportedly sitting on.
The best analysis I've seen indicates that this is (a) a play for
time by GM to use Chrysler's cash as a cushion to ride out the
economic downturn, and (b) a play to make GM/Chrysler even bigger
and harder to let fail.
There are few, if any, rational business reasons for GM to acquire
Chrysler.
--GM already has too many dealers and hardly needs more. State laws
make it very difficult for car companies to get rid of
dealers.
--Chrysler has the same UAW problems and massive pension
liabilities that GM does. Both companies have contracts that
require them to do buyouts for laid-off union members, making it
more expensive to fire them than to keep them.
--It will take several years to integrate the product lines and
processes, and GM doesn't have that kind of time. I'm guessing that
GM declares bankruptcy next year or in 2010 without a govt.
bailout.
Foreign buyers are more likely interested in GM's and Chrysler's
"parts" rather than the companies as a whole. They'd like some of
the car and component designs, but they have no desire to take on
the UAW contracts or the legacy costs. And so other companies are
more likely to buy up the assets after GM/Chrysler go bankrupt.
Guy Montag|10.28.08 @ 1:55PM|#
Guy: I wouldn't consider a large, heavy, 2-door V8 to be
"innovative" in an era when gas prices seem to fluctuate up to
$4/gal at the slightest hint of future scarcity . . .
Muscle-cars had a time and a place, it's time to let go.
Fag.
Jim|10.28.08 @ 2:00PM|#
Eric,
I owe $350,000 on a house that is worth, well, significantly less.
I also work for an asian automaker now, ironically enough, so
personally I'm in an OK position. However there just isn't enough
going on here outside of automotive to absorb all the excess labor.
Lots of people are leaving the state, which also doesn't help real
estate values. I keep hoping we'll eventually become the New South,
when our wages and property values start to look attractive enough
to attract new industries. I suspect we're still a long way off
from that though, and our state goverment here is more used to
being able to soak the (sometimes rich)auto industry than learning
how to be 'business friendly' and attract other industries.
Guy Montag|10.28.08 @ 2:02PM|#
OT: I almost decided to go with an aluminum 440 block with Stage V HEMI heads (aluminum too), but decided to go with a traditional iron block instead. Must be that 1/4 drop of Scottish blood in me, i.e., $150 used block vs. $5,000 block.
|10.28.08 @ 2:08PM|#
GM should phase out cars altogether and start making flying cars. Once Americans are flitting about around in our robot-controlled flying cars, the rest of the world will bow forever to our economic and technological might. Behold--we fly to work!
|10.28.08 @ 2:13PM|#
I keep hoping we'll eventually become the New South, when
our wages and property values start to look attractive enough to
attract new industries. I suspect we're still a long way off from
that though, and our state goverment here is more used to being
able to soak the (sometimes rich)auto industry than learning how to
be 'business friendly' and attract other industries.
Michigan could fix many of its problems simply by enacting a
right-to-work law. Eliminating the UAW's hold on the state would
bring in the foreign automakers like crazy, though probably not in
the next couple of years due to the economy. Michigan's base of
automotive expertise and supporting industries should make it
hugely tempting, apart from the anti-business policies in the
state.
An unrelated, but relevant story: When Gibson Guitars (based in
Kalamazoo at the time) was bought up in the late '60s, the buyer
decided to bust the union and move most of the company's operations
to a new plant in Nashville, which opened in 1974. The senior
production executive who supervised the Nashville set-up said it
was a pain in the ass, because all of the tool and die
manufacturers he needed to use were back in Michigan; Tennessee
simply had no supporting infrastructure for a manufacturing base
the way Michigan did--and does. Ultimately, when Gibson closed its
Kalamazoo plant in 1984, that executive and a few of his buddies
bought part of the plant and started Heritage Guitars, which makes
equivalent guitars to the Gibson custom shop at about half the
price.
TallDave|10.28.08 @ 2:22PM|#
I almost decided to go with an aluminum 440 block with Stage
V HEMI heads (aluminum too), but decided to go with a traditional
iron block instead.
I have an atavistic distrust of aluminum blocks.
Guy Montag|10.28.08 @ 2:25PM|#
TD,
Does the Challenger have a T-top? I'm generally too tall to sit
up in anything with a hardtop.
Does not appear to have that option, but I am sure the right custom
shop could do one for you. It does have a power sunroof
option.
I am only about 6' 3" and fit just fine in my '72 Charger (roof
line is pretty low) but fit better in the '96 Jeep and most
pickups.
Jim|10.28.08 @ 2:26PM|#
Michigan was almost the site for the new VW plant, but it's
going to Tennesee now.
Our company has a plant in Alabama, as do several other automakers.
One of the things I heard is that Alabama apparently used their
share of the tobacco settlement money to fund general expenses
(instead of funding anti-tobacco campaigns like other states) and
that is why they've been able to offer large tax breaks to
automakers and suppliers that invest there. Maybe Michigan should
have followed that lead.
|10.28.08 @ 2:30PM|#
I keep hoping we'll eventually become the New South, when
our wages and property values start to look attractive enough to
attract new industries.
Keep your chin up, with global warming coming on rapidly you'll be
the New New South in no time. Don't get your hopes up too much,
states in the Current New South are doing their best to nullify any
advantages they have over the Rust Belt.
|10.28.08 @ 2:33PM|#
I recommend that the Rust Belt secede. We need something interesting like that to start the next administration off with a bang.
|10.28.08 @ 2:34PM|#
Our company has a plant in Alabama, as do several other
automakers. One of the things I heard is that Alabama apparently
used their share of the tobacco settlement money to fund general
expenses (instead of funding anti-tobacco campaigns like other
states) and that is why they've been able to offer large tax breaks
to automakers and suppliers that invest there. Maybe Michigan
should have followed that lead.
Interesting. However, I don't think that tax breaks would be
sufficient to overcome the costs and difficulties of doing business
in Michigan. Ultimately, I think the Big Three probably have to die
before any change can come.
TallDave|10.28.08 @ 2:38PM|#
Pushrods! It's the twenty-first century, for crying out
loud.
Shrug. 505hp from the LS7, and 638hp from the LS9.
|10.28.08 @ 2:39PM|#
So I guess we'll be getting tax incentives to "Buy American"? That should work out. We can bail 'em out twice.
|10.28.08 @ 2:39PM|#
3 billion isn't depressed, it's wildly inflated.
GM is dead. Chrysler is dead. Ford may yet live.
The government is doing CPR because it doesn't want to face the
facts: bankruptcy is really the only option. The government isn't
going to be willing to foot the bill to fire the hundred thousand
people that need to get canned and the 7000 dealerships that need
to get cut loose for GM and Chrysler to stabilize in critical
condition.
|10.28.08 @ 3:03PM|#
The bailout saga continues: looks like the White House is about
to get tough with
kulak banks.
An impatient White House served notice Tuesday on banks and other financial companies receiving billions of dollars in federal help to quit hoarding the money and start making more loans.
"What we're trying to do is get banks to do what they are supposed to do, which is support the system that we have in America. And banks exist to lend money," White House press secretary Dana Perino said.
Though there are limits on how much Washington can pressure banks, she noted that banks are regulated by the federal government.
"They will be watching very closely, and they're working with the banks," she said.
"As these banks and institutions are reinforced and supported with taxpayer funds, they must meet their responsibility to lend, and support the American people and the U.S. economy," [Treasury Undersecretary] Ryan told the annual meeting of the Securities Industry and Financial Markets Association. "It is in a strengthened institution's best financial interest to increase lending once it has received government funding."
Neu Mejican|10.28.08 @ 3:09PM|#
I love the juxtaposition:
This: Fresno Bob | October 28, 2008, 12:29pm | #
The new challengers are deeply homoerotic, but the gay community
just ain't big enough or wealthy enough to prop up Chrysler. Bad
move.
With this: Guy Montag | October 28, 2008, 1:55pm | #
Guy: I wouldn't consider a large, heavy, 2-door V8 to be
"innovative" in an era when gas prices seem to fluctuate up to
$4/gal at the slightest hint of future scarcity . . .
Muscle-cars had a time and a place, it's time to let go.
Fag.
Classic.
|10.28.08 @ 3:10PM|#
3 billion isn't depressed, it's wildly inflated.
GM is dead. Chrysler is dead. Ford may yet live.
I think you're correct. Daimler-Benz recently zeroed-out on its
books the value of the remaining share of Chrysler that it owns.
The company is literally worth zero. In fact, the company is worth
less than zero, since the value of its assets going forward is
greatly exceeded by its pension and benefits liabilities. The same
is true of GM. No outside firm in its right mind would buy either
company prior to a Chapter 11 fire sale that would eliminate those
liabilities.
Guy Montag|10.28.08 @ 3:41PM|#
I have an atavistic distrust of aluminum blocks.
I still have some of that dinosaurishness too. Could polish up an
iron block and paint it aluminum, idunno.
TallDave|10.28.08 @ 4:00PM|#
Fortunately, the good people at Corvette Forum are helping me move past my prejudices.
TallDave|10.28.08 @ 4:03PM|#
Although, secretly, part of me still cringes when I rev it,
waiting for a piston to go flying through the hood or
something.
I blame the four years of working in a small engine shop to pay my
way through college for permanently imprinting "aluminum = cheap"
onto my synapses.
C5 Guy|10.28.08 @ 4:04PM|#
Besides, anyone who things a Corvette is either "large" or "heavy" obviously hasn't driven one lately. My C5 Z06 is under 3100 pounds and quite easily to toss in and out of traffic. Plus, 24MPG city/30MPG highway is none too shabby.
Guy Montag|10.28.08 @ 4:05PM|#
TD,
For me it is just that 5k vs. $150 issue really. Then again, it is
going to be sitting on a +$7k K-member and front suspension
w/rack&pinion, vs. original hardware.
Humm, this $5,000 car I bought almost 2 yrs. ago is getting
pricey.
TallDave|10.28.08 @ 4:13PM|#
C5,
Yeah, I love how they snuck it under the "gas guzzler tax" limits.
In your face, Al Gore!
And you can definitely tell the weight reduction when braking --
even >100mph it feels like you could stop on a dime. Of course,
the racing brakes help too, even if they are prone to sing.
Guy Montag|10.28.08 @ 4:24PM|#
TD,
Yea, big giand 6 caliper brakes are what I plan for the hybrid
Charger, for the front anyway. Still going with drums on the back
even after swapping the rear for a Dana-60.
johnl|10.28.08 @ 4:25PM|#
The automakers are in trouble because of promises they made years ago that they never funded. The best thing that could happen is for them to renegotiate those to a level they can pay. Barring that, they could let a bankruptcy sort things out. There is no reason to get the taxpayers involved.
|10.28.08 @ 4:26PM|#
I had a pretty good ride and was comfortable, but frankly, a
Lexus or even a Toyota Avalon is light years better in terms of
power, ride, comfort, and controls.
Of course, an Avalon is a Lexus, with a different nameplate and a
few gizmos (rear-view camera, that kind of thing) left off. Its
probably the best value for the money out there, if you want a
4-door sedan.
I keep hoping we'll eventually become the New South, when our
wages and property values start to look attractive enough to
attract new industries.
That ain't gonna happen as long as the UAW is squatting on your
state like a bloated toad.
Jim|10.28.08 @ 4:33PM|#
Here's a good summary of part of the reason these companies have
driven themselves into the ground:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122488710556068177.html
It's not just the union but the management response to it. They've
never quite burried their axes.
T|10.28.08 @ 4:59PM|#
It's not just the union but the management response to it.
They've never quite burried their axes.
You've just described unions everywhere. The relationship between
unions and management at the airlines can best be described as
toxic.
|10.28.08 @ 5:32PM|#
The Big Three were an example of how monopolies natural fail.
They had the U.S. market all to themselves for 30 years, and got so
fat and lazy that management assumed they could put out any piece
of crap and sell it, and workers (and their union representatives)
assumed that there was no such thing as cost-prohibitive salary and
benefits.
The '80s bailout of Chrysler did allow the company to put out an
innovative new product in the minivan, but the company's culture
was still the same old thing, and the problems came back quickly.
The same thing will happen if a new bailout were to allow GM to
survive beyond next year. Bailouts essentially function as a reward
to reinforce existing behaviors.
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