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Been Caught Stealing
"Let's put this in context," said Heritage legal eagle Hans A. von Spakovsky. "The left has not had unlimited power since 1965."
I was having lunch at the Heritage Foundation to get some perspective on a paranoia gripping the right and the left: the spectre of vote fraud. In 2004, you couldn't click on a liberal blog without reading rumors of Diebold machines rigging the election. In 2005, Democrats actually challenged Ohio's electoral votes on the floor of the House and Senate. The Democrats chilled out a little after, uh, winning in 2006, but vote fraud pied piper Greg Palast, who megaphoned those mid-decade stories of fraud, has an article in the new Rolling Stone (leading the site right now!) about how Republicans have pre-stolen the 2008 election through tickery and voter roll purges. Palast quote: "They've already stolen the 2008 election." Special extra Palast quote: "Fear of [Hugo] Chavez is fear of democracy."
Here he is:
Anyway, I went to Heritage to get the other side of this. It's more
fact-based (no claims that the 2006 elections were stolen by
brandishing Missouri Senate race exit polls), but if anything, it's
more panicked. As Spakowsky said, conservatives fear that a
Democratic victory will lead to ultimate Democratic power. Roman
Buhler, a Republican election lawyer, warned that the cost of
Democratic victory would not just be a locked-in liberal agenda,
but locked-in Democratic power. "Their goal is rigged elections,"
said Buhler. "In Zimbabwe we know what to do with people like that.
We're not used to it in America."
The evidence, point-by-point:
- Democrats passed the Motor Voter law in 1993 (in the meeting I started hearing the old Republican name for it, "auto fraudo"), which permanently loosened the rules on mailed-in voter registration.
- Democrats opposed a law that would have sent all military ballots back home via 4-day expedited mail instead of three-week snail mail, because the postal service unions opposed it. "They don't want the military to vote," Buhler said.
- Democrats want card check, which would take away the secret ballot in union elections. Not actually related to general election voting, but revealing of the party mentality.
- Democrats have muddied the vote fraud waters by accusing Republicans of "vote caging," sending mail to voters' homes and purging their names from the rolls if the names bounce back. That's legal, but Democrats have gained ground by characterizing it as illegally focused on minority neighborhoods. "They probably went through a lot of focus groups to come up with that name, caging" Buhler said. (Actually, it's what Tim Griffin and Monica Goodling called it.)
- Democrats take advantage of loose rules governing absentee ballots to committ fraud that way; "voters" will sign multiple ballots and send them in, confident that the state won't check to see if the signatures on them match other signatures.
Quin Hillyer of the D.C. Examiner began his remarks with a quote from Saul Alinsky: "A war is not an intellectual debate, and in the war against social evils there are no rules of fair play." He found it, he said, on the blog of Lynette Long, a Hillary Clinton dead-ender who claims that Obama stole the Democratic caucuses. This material can build the conservative argument against Democratic fraud, he said, because "this doesn't come from the right. It comes from a strong Hillary Clinton feminist."
There was even more at stake here than one stolen election, Buhler said. "The conservative movement has been what Americans look to when they think of political integrity," he explained. "Democrats were the party of Chicago and the Daleys. They've worked very hard to deflect that image and characterize all attacks on voter fraud as 'racism.' We must convince people that it is the left that breaks the law, and that they haven't changed since Dick Daley."
ed|10.21.08 @ 3:31PM|#
This is funny. Just last night I caught a rerun of American Experience: The Presidents, Lyndon B. Johnson, and I was struck by how cheerfully the talking heads recounted their experiences with voter fraud, some instances of which had cataclysmic consequences. It's all a game, they seemed to say. It's just history. Millions dead, economies ruined, countless dreams shattered. It's just history. Nothing to see here. Move along.
|10.21.08 @ 3:33PM|#
In the 19th Century vote buying was considered SOP. No one minded it because immigrants who had come from monarchies in Europe where no one cared what they thought, were flabergasted that anyone would actually want to know what they thought letalone pay them to vote.
|10.21.08 @ 3:44PM|#
"Hello, Tommy. You know O'Doole and the mayor?"
"I oughta. Voted for him six times last May."
"And that ain't the record, either."
JLE|10.21.08 @ 3:45PM|#
The real problem is that when the majority of the population
catches on to the idea of voter fraud, which they will in the
information society, they'll begin to lose confidence that their
vote matters (which it doesn't). The pride of "I made a choice"
will be absent.
The campaigning and voting aren't really for deciding the
presidency but rather for the future: encouraging public agreement
with whatever the "winner" decides to throw at us in terms of
policy change.
xx|10.21.08 @ 3:46PM|#
Who cares if there is fraud. I dislike both candidates and I don't care who wins. so if one side cheats who cares. we are all doomed anyways.
MAX HATS|10.21.08 @ 3:47PM|#
"Their goal is rigged elections," said Buhler. "In Zimbabwe we know what to do with people like that."
Black people!!
That aside, what does that even mean? "We know what to do with
people like that. . ." uh, what? Ignore them and make some
sanctions, I guess? What? I've been gone for a couple days - did I
miss when the US, along with the UN, GI Joe and Hero Force went in
and deposed Mugabe?
|10.21.08 @ 3:47PM|#
Too funny. Voter registration fraud. Nobody's ever seen Mickey
Mouse actually trying to vote.
But Alberto did get fired over it, didn't he? And there is an
investigation over it, isn't there? And thousands of folks got
kicked off the voting roles again, didn't they?
Republican plan--call fraud on registration, but throw thousands of
poor folks off the rolls in swing states; just enough folks to tip
the election to the Republican direction.
You know that special prosecutor investigating Alberto and those
firings? She can, at her own discretion, expand that investigation,
can't she? Wouldn't that be sweet? Pendulum swinging the other way?
Hitting you on the way out the door?
|10.21.08 @ 3:48PM|#
The only way to throw your vote away, is to vote.
Penn Jillette (probably quoting someone else)
|10.21.08 @ 3:49PM|#
I always try to get as many of those cheap "I Voted" stickers as
possible when I vote - then plaster them all over my chest.
And personally, I have no problem with a dimishement of the
legitemacy that an election win brings ... IF is increases distrust
and resistance to government actions.
gmatts|10.21.08 @ 3:49PM|#
ed,
I was watching the same program and had the same thoughts.
I started laughing when John Connally started talking about how if
a party had the local judges, they had the election. All you had to
do was call up the judge as election results were coming in, let
him know how many votes you were down, and soon after you weren't
down anymore.
gmatts|10.21.08 @ 3:50PM|#
I was watching the same program and had the same thoughts.
I started laughing when John Connally started talking about how if
a party had the local judges, they had the election. All you had to
do was call up the judge as election results were coming in, let
him know how many votes you were down, and soon after you weren't
down anymore.
YoungLiberal|10.21.08 @ 3:51PM|#
Card check is the biggest, most pointless waste of time and effort ever put forth by the left. (And I consider myself one of them)
Mike Laursen|10.21.08 @ 3:51PM|#
"The conservative movement has been what Americans look to
when they think of political integrity," he explained.
Oh, that's rich.
"Democrats were the party of Chicago and the Daleys. They've
worked very hard to deflect that image..."'
So, the Democrats have intentionally kept themselves out of power
to cut down on occurrences of corruption in their party. It all
makes sense now.
|10.21.08 @ 3:55PM|#
libertarians problem is far too much emphasis on fair play and democracy. We need to learn how to steal elections - it's the only way!
|10.21.08 @ 3:57PM|#
Obama needs to cut his ties to ACORN and their nation-wide voter fraud actions! http://tinyurl.com/6nra74
Geotpf|10.21.08 @ 4:05PM|#
In general, Democrats do better when turn out is high and Republicans do better when turn out is low, because the type of people who are only occasional voters (young adults, minorities, poor people) are the types of people who tend to vote Democratic. So, a very logical tactic for a Republican is to keep turn out as low as possible, via any means neccessary. The opposite is true for the Democrats. So, Republicans challenge anything kinda sorta resembling fraud, and if innocent voters get their voter rights revoked in the process, meh, they were probably going to vote for the Democrats anyways. Meanwhile, Democrats try to register everybody and their dog, and look the other way when things are a bit smelly. None of this should be a surprise to anybody.
xx|10.21.08 @ 4:07PM|#
domoarrigato
is right, we must also force a revolution or secede from the
union.
Guy Montag|10.21.08 @ 4:08PM|#
Republican plan--call fraud on registration, but throw
thousands of poor folks off the rolls in swing states; just enough
folks to tip the election to the Republican direction.
Now there is some funny!
shecky|10.21.08 @ 4:10PM|#
I don't care who wins, if I have to listen to this shit for the next three months, I'm moving to Canada.
Guy Montag|10.21.08 @ 4:12PM|#
shecky,
I am sorta with you. I don't care what happens, I am leaving the
country.
Perhaps you have not heard.
|10.21.08 @ 4:12PM|#
Committing voter fraud seems ridiculously stupid: what benefit
would I gain from casting an extra one, or even a few, ballots in
races with hundreds of thousands or millions of total votes? There
is a much higher return for insider fraud (i.e. elections
officials) than for individual voters. People sending in multiple
absentee ballots? Where's the proof?
The NYU Law School Brennan Center for Justice found "it is more
likely that an individual will be struck by lightening than that he
will impersonate another voter at the polls." When the examined the
small number of allegations of voter fraud, they found most
irregularities could be explained by voter mistakes or clerical
errors.
In Ohio, one of the states discussed in this post, the state League
of Women Voters and the Coalition on Homelessness & Housing in
Ohio looked at the 9,078,728 votes cast in Ohio's 2002 and 2004
elections and found four instances of voter fraud (ineligible
people voting or trying to vote).
The Department of Justice convicted 52 people of federal voter
fraud out of the 196,139,871 votes cast in federal elections since
Oct. 2002.
From all the data I've seen, the idea of voter fraud is a
fraud.
Let's be real: our justice system is based partially on the idea
that it's better for a guilty man to walk free than a free man to
be jailed. Right now, there is infinitesimally little voter fraud.
But policies aimed allegedly at combating it have had the effect of
disenfranchising many more voters (Citizens' Alliance for Secure
Elections Ohio estimates that Ohio requiring voter identification
"will effectively disenfranchise as many as 200,000 legally
eligible voters").
|10.21.08 @ 4:12PM|#
"""Democrats have muddied the vote fraud waters by accusing
Republicans of "vote caging," sending mail to voters' homes and
purging their names from the rolls if the names bounce back. That's
legal, but Democrats have gained ground by characterizing it as
illegally focused on minority neighborhoods."""
Is legality the issue? Which of the points were illegal? Let's not
forget that Tom Delay had the Texas republicans reorganized voting
districts so there would be more republicans in the house.
Both sides play dirty pool. Our founding fathers has some idea how
bad it could get which is partly why they used the electorial
college approach.
Zeb|10.21.08 @ 4:15PM|#
Who cares. The only reason why voting is needed at all is
because it is more or less arbitrary. As a republic, we need to get
new government people from time to time. The best way to avoid
dictators or too much concentration of power is to have some
sloppy, poorly informed election where who wins matters much less
than the fact that someone has been chosen.
Of course, the two party system, coupled with a huge powerful
government apparatus, screws up the whole plan, since between them,
they already have all of the political power wrapped up.
Guy Montag|10.21.08 @ 4:16PM|#
Let's not forget that Tom Delay had the Texas republicans
reorganized voting districts so there would be more republicans in
the house.
After decades of the opposing Party redistricting to ensure they
could not lose, but finally they did? You are calling the first
Republican redistricting in ages "dirty pool"?
Paul|10.21.08 @ 4:16PM|#
liberal blog without reading rumors of Diebold machines rigging the election.
Dude, they made a movie about it.
|10.21.08 @ 4:16PM|#
Card check is the biggest, most pointless waste of time and
effort ever put forth by the left.
I don't know that there's really been that many resources invested
in it - just some lobbying by unions of Dems, which they do
anyway.
I'm not sure how effective it will really be in unionizing
workplaces, but it won't be a total waste of time. I expect the
unions will get a very nice return on their investment.
Guy Montag|10.21.08 @ 4:19PM|#
Is legality the issue?
No.
Which of the points were illegal?
None, but as he said, the Democrats have had success in
characterizing it that way. Perhaps "false characterization" would
have been more clear.
Naga Sadow|10.21.08 @ 4:19PM|#
Guy,
You're leaving the country? Undisclosed location with hot female
welders I hope. Otherwise why leave the country with the highest
per capita female welder population?
|10.21.08 @ 4:20PM|#
"After decades of the opposing Party redistricting to ensure
they could not lose, but finally they did? You are calling the
first Republican redistricting in ages "dirty pool"?"
It creates an unclean hands problem.
|10.21.08 @ 4:21PM|#
shecky - in case you hadn't heard Canada has had three elections in as many years. no rest for the weary.
DannyK|10.21.08 @ 4:21PM|#
Marc Anthony Jacoby went to jail for vote fraud!
http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/10/20/republican-voter-registration-chief-arrested-fraud-california/
So it must be real, right?
|10.21.08 @ 4:22PM|#
the revolution starts now. Everyone who's with me - ill be at the bar in the back...
|10.21.08 @ 4:23PM|#
"The conservative movement has been what Americans look to
when they think of political integrity," he explained.
Uh, yeah. Especially these days.
Guy Montag|10.21.08 @ 4:23PM|#
You're leaving the country? Undisclosed location with hot
female welders I hope. Otherwise why leave the country with the
highest per capita female welder population?
I think there are more female welders in the general vicinity of
where I am going than there are in the greater DC beltway
area.
Besides, I am leaving on principle!
Guy Montag|10.21.08 @ 4:25PM|#
in case you hadn't heard Canada has had three elections in
as many years. no rest for the weary.
If kkkanadia is trying to be the New Italy, they have some catching
up to do.
|10.21.08 @ 4:25PM|#
gmatts | October 21, 2008, 3:51pm | #
Don't know why that posted twice - sorry
Comment fraud!
|10.21.08 @ 4:30PM|#
"If kkkanadia is trying to be the New Italy, they have some
catching up to do."
Was just thinking though - if I had put up with continuous
campaigning to have a government that could barely cobble together
a coalition and got overturned every 6 months - i'd probably sign
up. And shoot my TV.
ed|10.21.08 @ 4:32PM|#
too much emphasis on fair play and democracy
Evidently, the entire "experiment" of democracy is built upon a
foundation of fraud. But wait! There's more! Following these
fraudulent elections, "the people" have always had a mechanism of
rectifying said crimes by means of "checks and balances." And who
are these checkers and balancers? Why, the verysame slimeballs who
sanctioned the crimes! What's not to love? We The People are
brilliant! Joe The Plumber elects John The Senator who
rubber-stamps a law enriching Raul The Roofer who blames Katrina
The Hurricane when Molly The Meteorologist fails to prevent
cataclysmic destruction due to the complaisancy of Henry The
Defense Secretary and his merry band of Army-Corps Engineers. But I
rant.
|10.21.08 @ 4:32PM|#
After decades of the opposing Party redistricting to ensure
they could not lose, but finally they did? You are calling the
first Republican redistricting in ages "dirty pool"?
In Texas the redistricting would traditionally happen once a decade
after the new census numbers. Tommy Delay decided to do it
mid-decade because he wanted more Republicans in Congress.
But sure Guy let's pretend all redistricting is equal. It's more
effective to omit relevant details when you are pushing an
frame.
As far as ACORN goes, anyone who thinks/says that ACORN is a threat
to democracy is a dimwit at best, and a liar at worst.
Voter REGISTRATION fraud occurs because people paid to register
voters decide to just make shit up to get paid for doing nothing,
and then the group that pays them (ACORN) usually HAS TO submit
registrations that they know are improper because many state have
laws that require them to do so.
In many cases, ACORN themselves passed on info to Sec. of States
about registrations they felt were invalid or fraudulent. The SOS's
many times ignored ACORNs warnings.
And honestly, isn't it the job of the government to filter out
invalid registrations ?
|10.21.08 @ 4:33PM|#
US Attorney Matthew Iglesias - a Republican Bushy appointee -
was fired for refusing to prosecute a voter fraud case he deemed
bogus, shortly before the 2006 elections, despite being leaned on
by Pete Domenici (R) and Heather Wilson (R). This pattern was
repeated across the nation. In Minnesota, the US Attorney actually
did try to prosecute a case - a case so weak that the presiding
judge told her that she couldn't even determine what the
prosecution's theory of the crime was, before dismissing it.
You'll excuse me if I don't snap to attention when exactly the same
people start yelping about exactly the same thing.
BDB|10.21.08 @ 4:33PM|#
Anybody think the Republicans will challenge the election
results on the floor of the House this January, screaming about
ACORN?
I bet Michele Bachmann will lead the charge.
|10.21.08 @ 4:34PM|#
"And honestly, isn't it the job of the government to filter out invalid registrations ?" I thought all things are the job of the government...
|10.21.08 @ 4:36PM|#
The SOS's many times ignored ACORNs warnings.
While the Justice Department used them to find the bad
resigrations, then accused ACORN of trying to perpetrate a fraud by
submitting the registrations they had flagged.
I'm not a professional criminal, but I'm pretty sure that you don't
tell your mark that the documents you're trying to pass off are
phony.
|10.21.08 @ 4:38PM|#
Some day, punk, your going to post a comment that contains
something other than an insult.
Not today, apparently, but I'm an optimistic sort.
|10.21.08 @ 4:42PM|#
joe ... forgive my impulsive reaction to your presence ... I am
normally composed and a master of social decorum.
However, I find it nearly impossible to not call you out for what
you obviously are. I know you are a liberal dem, and that in itself
is fine. But your so obviously in the back pocket of the Dems, no
matter the evidence of wrongs committed by them.
Please, do something to prove me wrong - for once, show us that you
can apply your laser-like concentration on the nitty-gritty of
politics and call out a Dem for once!
|10.21.08 @ 4:43PM|#
"But your so . . ." should read " But you're so" . . . I hate bad grammar, even my own.
bubba|10.21.08 @ 4:45PM|#
It is unfortunate, that even if I accept all the arguments against the evil Democrats (and many of them, I do) then I still find it sad that my alternative is the Republican Party, which has its own list of faults. The least of which is protecting the Democrat. If the GOP can't be trusted to clean out Democrats like William Jefferson, there is no chance they will purge their own crooks.
zoltan|10.21.08 @ 4:46PM|#
After decades of the opposing Party redistricting to ensure
they could not lose, but finally they did? You are calling the
first Republican redistricting in ages "dirty pool"?
Yes, Guy, when one party does the same shameful act as the other,
it is still bad.
|10.21.08 @ 4:49PM|#
While the Justice Department used them to find the bad
resigrations, then accused ACORN of trying to perpetrate a fraud by
submitting the registrations they had flagged.
And it bears repeating that ACORN in many cases, by law,
had to submit the questionable registration.
|10.21.08 @ 4:51PM|#
You know what would be a really effective way to "call me out on
what I obviously am?"
Pointing out something I've written that is wrong, or unfair, or
inaccurate.
C'mon, if I'm such a partisan hack, here spewing talking points in
a biased manner, that shouldn't be too hard.
|10.21.08 @ 4:53PM|#
I am normally composed and a master of social
decorum.
And I'm normally 6' 4", with a 22 inch...
|10.21.08 @ 5:08PM|#
"Given that Chavez' referendum was defeated at the ballot box,
we now know that, as a dictator, Chavez is a flop"
Well, Chavez recently enacted by decree 26 new laws that were
included in his defeated December referendum, making a mockery out
of the people's vote (and we are still awaiting the final official
results)... hardly "a flop" as a dictator.
just keeping up my part on "all things Chavez" :)
EJM|10.21.08 @ 5:17PM|#
Anybody think the Republicans will challenge the election
results on the floor of the House this January, screaming about
ACORN?
I bet Michele Bachmann will lead the charge.
If she retains her seat; if not, maybe she'll pull a
López Obrador.
|10.21.08 @ 5:18PM|#
"""You are calling the first Republican redistricting in ages
"dirty pool"?"""
When redistricting is done with the intent to change the outcome of
an election, yes.
"""Perhaps "false characterization" would have been more
clear."""
Maybe, but which party doesn't do that? Bush and Co are well versed
in false characterization. Most politicians are.
|10.21.08 @ 5:19PM|#
The conservative movement has been what Americans look to
when they think of political integrity
Can't. Stop. Laughing.
|10.21.08 @ 5:20PM|#
A partisan shrill is one who lets his team get away with something while complaining that the other team is doing it.
|10.21.08 @ 5:23PM|#
CFisher, yeah you are laughing because you know better. A lot of
people really believe(d) that crap dispite history.
I know a couple of people that still argue that the WMDs in Iraq
will be found.
rhywun|10.21.08 @ 5:57PM|#
Canada has had three elections in as many years
Except each Canadian election lasts like a month.
|10.21.08 @ 6:01PM|#
When redistricting is done with the intent to change the
outcome of an election, yes.
Has there ever been a Texas redistricting (or in any other place)
done for a different reason?
The real danger of registration fraud is not "Mickey Mouse" showing
up at the polling place on Nov. 4, but "Mickey"'s vote being cast
for him by some election official, ala Chicago and South Texas. You
know, the old "how many votes do you need?" trick.
Can we stipulate that both parties are interested in rigging
elections if they think they can get away with it? All of the
pointless partisan whining on this thread gives me a headache.
|10.21.08 @ 6:03PM|#
I know a couple of people that still argue that the WMDs in
Iraq will be found.
Oh, believe me, I know.
I like to keep a pulse on what other folks are thinking, so every
now and again I dive into the shallow, yet frightening pond that is
Townhall.com.
It's truly amazing how the reality of the world completely shifts
180 degrees while I'm sojourning there as opposed to say legitimate
news sites.
|10.21.08 @ 6:04PM|#
Christ, this is nothing but a non-issue both parties love to have out there. First the Democrats register as many people, living, dead or fictitious, as possible. Then, despite knowing that nobody will cast votes under the latter two categories, the Republicans get to fire up their base by screaming "fraud" where non exists. "Voter fraud" is a non-issue on par with abortion, which is another "issue" used by both sides to fire up the base, while knowing that nothing is going to change.
|10.21.08 @ 6:07PM|#
Oh, and one point I've never seen addressed in any of this voter registration nonsense: Who are all these fucking idiots waiting until the last second to vote? You move, you re-register. If you want to vote, you don't wait until the election is 30 days away to register. Register in a timely fashion and you'll have plenty of opportunities to validate your registration.
No Name Guy|10.21.08 @ 6:12PM|#
To what length will the dems go to....lets see, close to home
here....
In Washington (we call it Washington, not Washington State, thank
you east coast assholes) they just kept counting, and re-counting,
and finding more ballots, and counting some more, and finding some
more ballots until the "correct" govenor, Queen Christine, a Dem of
course, was elected.
Yeah, those evil republicians, upon being beaten in a very smelly
contest, sued everyone, and rioted in the streets....oh, wait, they
were civil.
Hmmm....... I wonder what will happen if the Anoited One, all hail
Obama, the Savior of the Country and the World, somehow goes down
to defeat. Riots in the streets....cities burning perhaps, lawsuit
city.....you bet.
Syd|10.21.08 @ 6:36PM|#
- Democrats opposed a law that would have sent all military
ballots back home via 4-day expedited mail instead of three-week
snail mail, because the postal service unions opposed it. "They
don't want the military to vote," Buhler said.
Sounds more like the Democrats are kissing the buts of the postal
service unions. Give your vote time to get home and don't wait till
the last minute.
|10.21.08 @ 6:43PM|#
gmatts said,
Don't know why that posted twice - sorry
The server squirrels are practicing for the transfer to the voting machines.
|10.21.08 @ 6:48PM|#
The "voter fraud" war is as dumb as the war on drugs. How much
money and man power wasted on prosecuting how many cases in the
last decade?
Growing up in the south, fraud could swing a local city council
election or school board seat. But it is ridiculous to spend this
much time and money on something that can't move the numbers
.0000001%
JLE|10.21.08 @ 8:08PM|#
This is the smartest of all the comment threads I've ever read, and it's disenchanting to see you all fall. You fall to ad hominem, you fall to partisan politics, and you fall to the worst and the best of it: money. Weak fucks. I quit. What about actually thinking for yourself and having an idea? Oh, nevermind, you can buy one.
|10.21.08 @ 8:48PM|#
"When redistricting is done with the intent to change the
outcome of an election, yes."
Is there any other kind?
I give you the Illinois
Congressional District.
When it comes to electoral hijinks, legal and otherwise, I'm
stunned that there are folks on each side who think the problem
mainly comes from the enemy.
I'm equally stunned that folks think so few fraudulent and
otherwise not valid ballots are cast in every election. I'm
virtually certain the margin of fraud in Florida in 2000 was
greater than the margin of victory (though it remains to be seen
which side stole more votes). Why do people think that when there's
everything to gain and virtually no chance of getting caught (and
little chance of anything happening to you if you do) that our
politically involved people suddenly develop the integrity gene
after showing so very little of it leading up to the
election?
I'm sure it's potentially enough to swing close elections, and of
course those are the elections such a discussion is important for.
For Christ's sake government has its tentacles in so many areas of
our lives that it has no business in, and we're going to argue that
_this_, which of course _somebody_ has to watch over, is no big
deal? How about we stop passing laws involving gay marriage, porn
and short selling and start enforcing election laws?
|10.22.08 @ 1:03PM|#
""" I'm stunned that there are folks on each side who think the
problem mainly comes from the enemy."""
Come on, you're not stunned. You know that's standard operating
procedure. Only the guy I don't like cheats, I'm just modifying for
a better outcome.
""" I'm virtually certain the margin of fraud in Florida in 2000
was greater than the margin of victory (though it remains to be
seen which side stole more votes). """"
Where do you get this margin of fraud statistic?
|10.22.08 @ 7:25PM|#
"Where do you get this margin of fraud statistic?"
It's not a statistic, it's an educated guess and I presented it as
one. It comes from many observations of a fairly open system of
fraudulent and generally shady voting practices.
When a party has total power in a voting precinct, they essentially
set up that precinct as a vote mill since basically there's nothing
there to stop them from doing so. Sometimes you'll see a
combination there of same day registration followed by turnout
numbers over 100%.
Considering how small the margin in Florida was in 2000, just a few
such vote mills would likely generate enough extra votes to cover
that margin one way or the other. Voter fraud is undoubtedly real
and likely its enough to swing a close election. To me that
indicates it is a problem.
|10.22.08 @ 7:42PM|#
BTW I'd put the upper limits on the number of stolen votes in
any one district at about 60,000 which is a little less than the
vote total Dan Rostenkowski got in 1994 when he was on his way to
jail. :)
I'd like to see a movement to stop all of it and maybe that way you
can stop the worst of it. Gerrymandering, vote fraud, vote
intimidation, counting fraud and "mistakes." Ballot access
misconduct, etc. The more people say "no big deal," the more
emboldened these sorts of activities become, and I just have a
problem with that.
Maybe it's a growing up in Chicago thing. :)
Pundit Joe|10.23.08 @ 8:29AM|#
In our system, leaders carry the authority granted to them by
the people's vote. If the vote loses credibility then the leaders
lose their authority. So, it is in the best interest of everyone
that we maintain and restore credibility in the election process.
Sadly, many Dems have opposed measures designed to do just that.
Their opposition to photo ID requirements for voting is a prime
example. It is a very dangerous game they are playing - claiming
elections they lose are illegitimate while actively opposing
measures to combat fraud.
I doubt we can ever make it perfect, there will always be those
that will try to game the system, but we can make it better than it
is today - good enough for the public to maintain faith in its
legitimacy.
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