That'll Teach Her for Thinking We're Thugs

Radley Balko | October 15, 2008

How not to handle your critics:

The ACLU filed the case on April 18, 2006, on behalf of Karen J. Kilpatrick, who claimed that the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) violated her Free Speech rights.

Kilpatrick was driving her blue van in Pensacola on April 19, 2004, with the slogans “Remember the Children of Waco” and “Boo ATF” written on some of the windows when she was pulled over by police for questioning by the ATF.

The ACLU argues in the lawsuit that her First Amendment Rights to Free Speech and her Fourth Amendment right to be free from unreasonable search and seizure were violated when officers detained her for an hour, searched her car without consent, and ordered her to remove the writing on the side of her van.

Comments

JMR|10.15.08 @ 9:27AM|#

Imagine the screams of outrage from the neocons had this happened under Clinton instead of Bush...

Hogan|10.15.08 @ 9:28AM|#

haha @ "Boo ATF"

ATF lawyer|10.15.08 @ 9:30AM|#

Settle this thing NOW!

Elemenope|10.15.08 @ 9:30AM|#

And people say the ACLU is all liberal hoo-hah.

Oh wait, a FREE SPEECH case criticizing the gun-regulatory police agency? Yeah, OK, so they are liberal hoo-hahs.

Guy Montag|10.15.08 @ 9:34AM|#

All the more reason why I am leaving the country right after the coronation.

Nigel Watt|10.15.08 @ 9:40AM|#

Guy, where to?

Elemenope|10.15.08 @ 9:40AM|#

Someone needs to calm the fireman down.

Or buy him a ticket.

One way or the other.

Guy Montag|10.15.08 @ 9:41AM|#

NW,

The Orient.

|10.15.08 @ 9:43AM|#

Isn't the ATF non existent now?
I think that it is part of the FBI now.

Guy,
Why are you leaving? Where are you going?

You need to stick around and fight for your rights dude, there is no where you can go.

Nigel Watt|10.15.08 @ 9:44AM|#

Guy, where will you be more free than here in Asia? The Philippines?

Citizen Nothing|10.15.08 @ 9:45AM|#

You're always free to hole up for a couple days at my compound, Guy. Bring your own booze. And ammo.

|10.15.08 @ 9:46AM|#

You should tiptoe around those with the least amount of power, as they are the most likely to abuse it. That is, unless you are trying to make a point, or take a stand, or something.

Anyway, it's so fitting that the police and the ATF just couldn't help themselves and just HAD to teach her a lesson.

|10.15.08 @ 9:47AM|#

Hey Guy,

You know how Alec Baldwin and some other fruitcakes said they were going to leave the country if Bush got elected.

They didn't, and it was lame that they said that and lamer that they didn't go, when they promised.

But they had somewhere to go. They have their socialist paradises in Canada and Europe.

We have no where to go. Stand here and fight for freedom, or there will be none anywhere.

Guy Montag|10.15.08 @ 9:49AM|#

Headed to the Asia part of The Orient ;)

Will have freebie government transportation AND ammo, but have to buy my own uniforms of course, since us evil Officers need to pay our own way in some respects.

Citizen Nothing|10.15.08 @ 9:51AM|#

I'll be in the U.S.V.I. next week. Part of the empire, I know, but off the radar. I'll send back a report.

Guy Montag|10.15.08 @ 9:54AM|#

CN,

I went to flight school with the woman who later became the (Territorial?) Aviation Officer of the VI National Guard. Pretty sure she retired. I think they got rid of their helicopter and just use a fixed-wing now.

Nigel Watt|10.15.08 @ 9:54AM|#

Citizen: The Caribbean is definitely looking best to me if the USA gets too fucked up. Looking at the Dominican Republic and Trinidad & Tobago.

|10.15.08 @ 9:55AM|#

I sincerely hope that wherever Guy relocates, internet access is unavailable.

But that's just me.

shecky|10.15.08 @ 9:56AM|#

ATF called 911 to get this woman who is obviously a danger to the public? Did somebody take away their guns and badges?

Xeones|10.15.08 @ 9:56AM|#

If only Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms were a convenience store, not a government agency.

With a drive-thru.

LarryA|10.15.08 @ 9:57AM|#

Isn't the ATF non existent now?

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives online.

Will have freebie government transportation AND ammo, but have to buy my own uniforms of course, since us evil Officers need to pay our own way in some respects.

[hand salute] Stay safe.

Elemenope|10.15.08 @ 10:01AM|#

J sub D,

No, it isn't just you.

Thing is, if he calmed down just a *wee* bit, he'd be fine.

Elemenope|10.15.08 @ 10:02AM|#

If only Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms were a convenience store, not a government agency.

With a drive-thru.

This is known in New Hampshire as a "business plan".

Abdul|10.15.08 @ 10:02AM|#

From the court's summary judgment mostion, linked to in the article, it appears taht this woman was driving around a federal building on April 19 with these messages on her van.

April 19 was the day tim McVeigh chose to bom the Oklahoma city federal building because it was the anniversary of the Waco siege.

Some ATF employees were nervous and wanted to question her. When there's a potential threat to the safety to the ATF agent, they call in and coordinate with local law enforcement. It's not clear if the ATF agents in this building had cas with lights and sirens to do a traffic stop on their own.

Anyway, it's after the ATF called local law that the hilarity ensued.

|10.15.08 @ 10:05AM|#

This is known in New Hampshire as a "business plan".

LMNOP, while we're sort of on a New England tangent, how's your RI pride doing after we pwned you in legalizing gay marriage?

(twists knife deeper and laughs)

|10.15.08 @ 10:06AM|#

What kind of boots were they wearing?

Guy Montag|10.15.08 @ 10:06AM|#

LarryA,

Thank you [returns salute]

I think my greatest hazards will be dodging trucks running down the road, running/hiking in the heat, and lowest bidder flights.

Oh, and R&R hazards outside of Theater.

|10.15.08 @ 10:14AM|#

Hmm, BATFE agents 'perceive' a 'potential' threat? Yep, that's probable cause allright. Has anyone heard the audio from this circus?

link to the audio here:

http://www.aclufl.org/pdfs/atfscallstopensacolapolice.wma

and the judgement here:
http://www.aclufl.org/pdfs/Kilpatrick-SJ.pdf

We pay these jack-offs#$%#$#

|10.15.08 @ 10:14AM|#

Seriously, a talking milkshake?
What I need to enjoy ATF isn't even legal!
Boo ATF!

|10.15.08 @ 10:17AM|#

phalkor,

"Everybody split up! We have to find the cup! The cup has the drugs!"

Citizen Nothing|10.15.08 @ 10:21AM|#

"Thing is, if he calmed down just a *wee* bit, he'd be fine."

And if you've got a compound that needs defending, I'd take Guy over joe any day.

|10.15.08 @ 10:27AM|#

"And if you've got a compound that needs defending, I'd take Guy over joe any day."

[snotty attack ad voice] Barak Obama will raise taxes on cultist compounds. Barak Obama: wrong for militaristic cults, wrong for America.

concerned observer|10.15.08 @ 10:50AM|#

the posters here are so busy having a pityfest over the censorshiop that none stopped to psoibly look at the problem with the message. we need th eatf destpite the things wrong with it. it should be reformed but not eliminated. oh thats right this is a libertarian blog so the atf is the cause of all evil in the world.

Abdul|10.15.08 @ 10:55AM|#

Concerned observer is right. Alcohol and tobacco tax revenues would be completely out of control without the ATF. Moonshine would make a comeback, people would smoke un-taxed cigarettes (unless their homeowner's association forbids it), and brother would fight brother!

|10.15.08 @ 10:55AM|#

While making the obligatory insult upthread, I neglected to include

Fuck the assholes at BATF!

FrBunny|10.15.08 @ 11:00AM|#

"Imagine the screams of outrage from the neocons had this happened under Clinton instead of Bush..."

I LOVE imagining people I hate saying things I disagree with, then laughing at them for it! Stupid neocons! When will they learn to stop probably thinking stuff?!

PS - Neocons do suck, but for actual, y'know, reasons.

dhex|10.15.08 @ 11:01AM|#

All the more reason why I am leaving the country right after the coronation.

susan sarandon, is that you?

|10.15.08 @ 11:02AM|#

I notice that concerned observer's written communication skills still suck.

Don't bother cleaning your posts up before posting CO. You'd stlll appear imbecilic if you employed proper written English.

joe\'s Law In Action|10.15.08 @ 11:05AM|#

J sub D - Don't dangle your participles when criticising another's writing.

|10.15.08 @ 11:14AM|#

I'm surprised the assholes didn't leave pieces of her van strewn all over the side of the road after they "searched" it.

|10.15.08 @ 11:21AM|#

If only Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms were a convenience store

A friend has a t-shirt with Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms on it, with the tag line "Who's bringing the chips".

|10.15.08 @ 11:23AM|#

"I LOVE imagining people I hate saying things I disagree with, then laughing at them for it! Stupid neocons! When will they learn to stop probably thinking stuff?!"

I think the point was that neocons actually did scream with outrage at Clinton's ATF, i.e., not probably. I referenced that in my 10:06 post.

zoltan|10.15.08 @ 11:34AM|#

Good thing she didn't have a harmless puppy in the car.

Elemenope|10.15.08 @ 11:36AM|#

LMNOP, while we're sort of on a New England tangent, how's your RI pride doing after we pwned you in legalizing gay marriage?

(twists knife deeper and laughs)

Yeah, laugh it up, Epi. It must feel good to *finally* beat Rhode Island to something sensible.

Seeing as how it's never happened before and all. Just don't get used to the feeling is all I'm saying.

James B.|10.15.08 @ 11:40AM|#

I am thinking of leaving for Chile, Mongolia or Namibia if either Obama or McCain wins.

The Chad|10.15.08 @ 11:51AM|#

Just go someplace higher than the US on the index of economic freedoms:
http://www.heritage.org/research/features/index/topten.cfm

|10.15.08 @ 11:55AM|#

Isn't the ATF non existent now?
I think that it is part of the FBI now.

ATF was moved from the Treasury to Department of Justice as part of the restructuring post 9-11.

There had been talk about rolling their into the FBI, but everything I ever read on the subject made it pretty clear that the people at the FBI consider the ATF to be populated by a bunch of incompetent, stumblefuck jerkoffs.

|10.15.08 @ 11:56AM|#

*talk about rolling them* is how it should read. Stupid fingers, type better.

Geoff Nathan|10.15.08 @ 11:57AM|#

joe's Law In Action | October 15, 2008, 11:05am | #
J sub D - Don't dangle your participles when criticising another's writing.

Just to defend a fellow Detroiter--and speaking as the resident linguist...

There are no dangling participles in J's post. There's a participle, but it's governed by 'bother'. Normal, standard English grammar. Don't try arguing...

FrBunny|10.15.08 @ 12:03PM|#

"I think the point was that neocons actually did scream with outrage at Clinton's ATF, i.e., not probably. I referenced that in my 10:06 post."

Since Waco actually resulted in deaths, and this story about minor harrassment appeared TODAY, how 'bout we give people some time to get angry? Or were you "scream[ing] with outrage" back in April? Excuse me if I missed it.

And goddamn you all for making me defend Republicans.

xx|10.15.08 @ 12:04PM|#

Pensacola is full of retards, I Once lived there. Nothing but pregnant teens and bible beaters, bending over for the mighty law. They invested a year into a narco case 70+ officers and all they got was a Kilo of cocaine. They are retarded

Kolohe|10.15.08 @ 12:07PM|#

From the court's summary judgment mostion, linked to in the article, it appears taht this woman was driving around a federal building on April 19 with these messages on her van.

April 19 was the day tim McVeigh chose to bom the Oklahoma city federal building because it was the anniversary of the Waco siege.

Just repeating this, because this is some needed context. Minority opinion ahead:

With this context:
Officers detained her for an hour,
Too long, you should be able to determine the threat in no more than about 15 min.

searched her car without consent,
*Not* unreasonable, given the context (yarly)

and ordered her to remove the writing on the side of her van.
totally unreasonable and a clear 1st amendment violation.

ymmv (duh)

|10.15.08 @ 12:10PM|#

Yeah, laugh it up, Epi. It must feel good to *finally* beat Rhode Island to something sensible.

Oh, I am.

(twists knife even harder)

Kolohe|10.15.08 @ 12:10PM|#

Pensacola is full of retards, I Once lived there. Nothing but pregnant teens and bible beaters,

You forget another subset, aviators. (Hai, Guy!)

rhywun|10.15.08 @ 12:37PM|#

Just go someplace higher than the US on the index of economic freedoms

Is the economic freedom in the US really so bad that one would be willing to trade many of one's other freedoms in order to live in a place like Hong Kong or Singapore? Srsly.

|10.15.08 @ 12:43PM|#

Yeah, laugh it up, Epi. It must feel good to *finally* beat Rhode Island to something sensible.

Damn Epi, you're gloating over beating RI at something? Jeez, that's like doing an end yard dance after beating a 4 year old in Scrabble.

Guy Montag|10.15.08 @ 12:52PM|#

Kolohe,

Yea, but they are mostly the Navy variety. Hardly any Army Aviators there unless we are off for the weekend from Ft. Rucker, AL.

I did visit for one weekend back in the 1980s. Found it to be a strange place.

|10.15.08 @ 1:24PM|#

"Since Waco actually resulted in deaths, and this story about minor harrassment appeared TODAY, how 'bout we give people some time to get angry? Or were you "scream[ing] with outrage" back in April? Excuse me if I missed it.

And goddamn you all for making me defend Republicans."

OK, so we've established that you're one of those jerkoffs who can never say, "oh, I get it now." First, the NRA has been in conflict with the ATF since before Waco ever happened. Their missions are diametrically opposed. With Waco, right wingers were able to be more critical because their man wasn't in office. Now that their man IS in office, they don't criticize the ATF as much. It's a legitimate complaint that most neocons put "us vs. them" before any kind of belief system. And you need to learn to admit when you didn't catch something.

Thomas Paine\'s Goiter|10.15.08 @ 1:53PM|#

Guy:

pacific coast of Costa Rica, Uruguay or Bulgaria.

zoltan|10.15.08 @ 2:00PM|#

What about Latvia? I heard that place is happenin'.

FrBunny|10.15.08 @ 4:16PM|#

OK, so we've established that you're one of those jerkoffs...

Fuck you, since you took it there, and in the meantime stop changing the argument. Mr First Post is the one who "imagined" the outrage that he thinks ought to equate this incident with Waco in the minds of eeeeevil neocons. Anyone who bases his argument on what he imagines the other team might say -- then posts that opinion online -- will receive my derision with or without your grade-school vitriol trying to justify him.

I'd forgotten what an immature asshat you are, or I would have left as soon as you replied to my first post. I won't make the mistake again.