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|10.15.08 @ 9:06PM|#
I think McCain had Nancy's pelvis broken.
He was still pissed about the last debate where he mentioned Ted
Kennedy but Ted was already out of the hospital.
This time, he knows Nancy ain't going anywhere.
Kolohe|10.15.08 @ 9:11PM|#
along the lines for Ian said, if I refresh the comments on the reason blog, it freezes the coveritlive ap.
|10.15.08 @ 9:13PM|#
Joe the plumber must be a wonderful, wonderful man. I haven't seen him, but I'm sure he's dreamy.
Kolohe|10.15.08 @ 9:13PM|#
I like to see what XOM does the second half of '08. They actually underperformed expectations with oil at 140+. If it stays down at 70 or so, they're going to be hurtin
Mister DNA|10.15.08 @ 9:14PM|#
Why no moderated live reader comments in the liveblog?
It starts with a "d" and ends with an "ondero", that's why.
Kolohe, do what I'm doing - open the reader comments in a separate
tab...
|10.15.08 @ 9:14PM|#
Joe has to be a plumber because he is in the services sector because the manufacturing sector has been shipped overseas!
|10.15.08 @ 9:15PM|#
A trillion dollar deficit. Jesus fucking shit monkeys.
"Aren't you both ignoring reality?"
GEE, YA THINK, BOB?!?
troll|10.15.08 @ 9:15PM|#
I would blather incessantly and be banned repeatedly. I would think I'm funny. T'would be good.
SIV|10.15.08 @ 9:16PM|#
REASON's editors are doing their best to dispell Handsome Dick Manitoba's quote "In my book quantity is quality"
Tom W (Fla. not FL)|10.15.08 @ 9:16PM|#
Just don't flash McCain the Queen of Diamonds, he'll get all Manchurian Candidate on our ass.
rhywun|10.15.08 @ 9:17PM|#
Don't mind me picking up "plumber" as tonight's drinking word.
I'm already drunk.
|10.15.08 @ 9:17PM|#
I miss Joe (the plumber, that is). Things haven't been the same since they quit talking about him.
BobDobalina|10.15.08 @ 9:18PM|#
More soundbites and crap. McCain is not going to "knock it out
the box," or do a Bush-in-1984 and whip anyone's ass.
Bottom line, the Republicans need to suck it up, realize that
they've lost this election and then contemplate how their slavish
obeisance to Dubya destroyed whatever credibility they've
had.
If they are wise, they'll figure out a way to ditch the religious
nutjobs and neocons and create a new conservative-libertarian based
political initiative.
The only thing that we as libertarians have on our side under the
coming Obama presidency is that rubber of reality will hit the road
when the "magic pot of money to redistribute the wealth" fails to
materialize and the Democrats will have to make choices from among
their various factions, all of whom want a check at the expense of
some other person's dwindling pockets.
|10.15.08 @ 9:18PM|#
I don't believe thst McCain knows what he say he knows...
He's on my watch list.
SIV|10.15.08 @ 9:19PM|#
Taxes are going up on everybody, not just the "working families
who earn more than $250k".
Hell even Bob Lutz of GM wants a floor under gas prices so the Volt
won't crash and burn.
nonPaulogist|10.15.08 @ 9:19PM|#
Johnny is getting senile. The line-item veto was already ruled unconstitutional.
Cheezwizard|10.15.08 @ 9:19PM|#
Eliminate the tariff on Brazilian sugarcane? Is the maverick taking on HFCS? O noes!
Bingo|10.15.08 @ 9:20PM|#
If they are wise, they'll figure out a way to ditch the religious nutjobs and neocons and create a new conservative-libertarian based political initiative.
Nah, they'll chalk this one up to McCain not being Jesus-y enough.
Huckabee 2012!
Kolohe|10.15.08 @ 9:21PM|#
"Senator Obama, President Bush is a friend of mine, and I'm no President Bush"
Bingo|10.15.08 @ 9:24PM|#
I'm out of cheap wine and I kinda want to get some falafel but I
might miss a worthwhile gaffe.
Argh, too many choices!
Caligula|10.15.08 @ 9:25PM|#
Wow, Obama is super saiyan tonight. McCain had better whip out the Ayers card quick!
Jerry|10.15.08 @ 9:25PM|#
This is a great surreal debate because Obama & McCain can;t just read off their paper script in tonight's format.
-|10.15.08 @ 9:26PM|#
You know? I don't really care if they get mean and negative in a campaign. It's expected, and you gotta do what you gotta do to point out the other fool's shortcomings. As long as whoever I'm for gets negative too, then I don't care.
BDB|10.15.08 @ 9:28PM|#
"I thought for a second McCain was going to cry a la Clinton in
NH."
Well, he's tried to copy everything else from the Hillary Clinton
campaign so he may as well.
Morris|10.15.08 @ 9:28PM|#
Well it's obvious McCain isn't going to win by being nice and sweet, so he may as well go down fighting hard instead of turning the other cheek.
BobDobalina|10.15.08 @ 9:28PM|#
Nah, they'll chalk this one up to McCain not being Jesus-y
enough.
Hell, Jesus Himself isn't Jesusy enough for these Republicans!
|10.15.08 @ 9:28PM|#
McCain is using tricky accounting practices to pin Obama, nice. They got the Dems company books.
Ian|10.15.08 @ 9:29PM|#
McCain's campaign ads are now 100% negative. They haven't always been. Not sure why Obama didn't properly qualify that.
|10.15.08 @ 9:29PM|#
"McCain isn't going to win by being nice and sweet"
Yeah, he's been so nice and sweet lately as he falls in the
polls...
|10.15.08 @ 9:31PM|#
"So, to summarize, say what you want about me. I can take the
slings and arrows, but stop slandering poor, defenseless,
Blinky."
**Only a moron wouldn't cast his vote for Monty Burns!!**
Kolohe|10.15.08 @ 9:31PM|#
The 'my underdog hometown team beat the Evil Empire' would have been a powerful weapon in more capable hands.
Charles|10.15.08 @ 9:32PM|#
This would be a better REASON liveblog thing if a few of the better commenters were invited.
Morris|10.15.08 @ 9:32PM|#
Barack's just pissed off that he's got more for McCain to pick
on and attack him for with all his suspicious activities.
They both attack, and they should both attack. Get over it. That's
the game they signed up for and people should quit whining about
negativity.
Sarah Palin being called a cunt on t-shirts pretty much negates the
"kill him" and "off with his head" whining.
An honest question|10.15.08 @ 9:32PM|#
Are any libertarians here going to hold your nose and vote for a major party POTUS candidate? If so who and why?
|10.15.08 @ 9:33PM|#
Palin rally was a frightening thing, what was a hockey mom to do if her followers are fanatics?
Gilbert Martin|10.15.08 @ 9:33PM|#
When Obama started that crap about giving 95% of the people a
tax cut, McCain should have pointed out that 95% of the people
don't pay taxes in the first place.
Giving people who don't pay taxes money isn't a "tax cut" - it's a
welfare payment.
Kolohe|10.15.08 @ 9:33PM|#
The Ayers thing was going to pass unstated; why the heck did Obama allude to it?
|10.15.08 @ 9:35PM|#
Poor wittle pussy McCain had his wittle feelings hurt. And the big bad black bully just doesnt care.
Kaiser|10.15.08 @ 9:35PM|#
Was it just me or did Obama correct Mccain on Cardinals v. Cowboys? I believe Obama said it was the Redskins however I am pretty sure it was Cardinals v. Cowboys
Kolohe|10.15.08 @ 9:36PM|#
This seems like the longest segment for a single 'topic' of any
of the previous three debates.
It almost ran out of steam until McCain started running downfield
right now.
Bingo|10.15.08 @ 9:36PM|#
Wow, the Barr feed is just a complete clusterfuck this time. Why are they doing internet streaming instead of a TV?
||10.15.08 @ 9:37PM|#
I actually like emotion and heart in my president. Bill Clinton was like that.
|10.15.08 @ 9:37PM|#
I think he just said "congratulations" (because McCain had a big role - I think he was the one that blocked the punt).
|10.15.08 @ 9:37PM|#
McCain looks flustered and upset. He does not look
Presidential.
You haven't seen many of our presidents in action, have you?
|10.15.08 @ 9:37PM|#
well I haven't had my lobotomy yet so I can't really call myself
a libertarian. But, I did vote for Bush in the last election, with
little or no feeling of conviction except to spite the liberal mobs
on campus.
now, I am very disgusted with both parties. I can't ever feel like
it's an Us vs Them in two party politics anymore.
damn, is there a good reason to vote for either of them? they offer
nothing
Kaiser|10.15.08 @ 9:39PM|#
Mr. Nice Guy
Ahh too bad, that could've been a major gaffe! Oh well back to the
boredom.
|10.15.08 @ 9:41PM|#
"WTF is ACORN?"
American
Congress
Of
Republican
Nativists
They were a community group headed by Lonewhacko bent on catching
illegal immigrants and releasing them in Argentina
|10.15.08 @ 9:41PM|#
Is Obama going to mention that McCain was a keynote speaker at an ACORN convention?
King of the Hill Dad|10.15.08 @ 9:42PM|#
I just think Obama is a liar. I've read both sides of all crap that's out there, proven or not, and I don't know what to take for truth anymore. But my deep gut feeling is that he's just a damn liar. He ain't caught yet, but it's likely that he's a great big bullshit free riding phony.
Kolohe|10.15.08 @ 9:42PM|#
Per Jesse Walker's 9:40
Well, that exchange was excruciatingly long, but McCain did get
some good shots in, and imo was his best performance so far
tonight. (but which ain't saying much)
Kaiser|10.15.08 @ 9:42PM|#
At this point I don't believe anything can help Mccain. IF he had voted no on the bailout, and IF he had then come out strong against Obama being a socialist I believe quite honestly he would be in the lead. However screwed the pooch on that one by voting for the bailout and turning to attack ads. Which subsequently in normal elections probably would have worked.
SIV|10.15.08 @ 9:43PM|#
Obama is touting Biden's support for federal "Crime Bills". More police, draconian drug sentences,destruction of civil liberties and gun control.We'll get more of it Obamatarians.
|10.15.08 @ 9:44PM|#
That clinches it ... my sphincter, I mean. McCain needs someone to change his diaper ... he's getting whiny. I cannot stomach the man. Before this debate, at least I could give him the benefit of the doubt, but that's gone. He is just behaving like a spoiled little bratty kid who can't think of anything except for stinky feet. His smirks and complete avoidance of any substance, his continuing repetition of total, naked lies and innuendo ... he makes me physically ill. Unbelievable. I'm disgusted by that one.
|10.15.08 @ 9:44PM|#
Fuck special needs families. Seriously. What the fuck does that have to do with being a heartbeat away from the presidency?
|10.15.08 @ 9:44PM|#
This is a rout.
I called the first one a tie, leaning McCain.
I called the second one a close win for Obama.
This is a rout.
|10.15.08 @ 9:44PM|#
Sarah Palin
Stood up to intra-party corruption
Has insight on special needs children
Kolohe|10.15.08 @ 9:44PM|#
WTF was that again? "what they call 'the lower 48?'"
It would have been perfectly fine to say "relieve the energy crunch
of The United States" or even 'our country' you know, the one
that's 'first'
Kolohe|10.15.08 @ 9:45PM|#
'cockamamie' is a word I have never heard from anyone under Monty Burns age.
|10.15.08 @ 9:46PM|#
"More police, draconian drug sentences,destruction of civil
liberties and gun control.We'll get more of it Obamatarians."
None of that from the GOP, nope. The GOP stands bravely for the
rights of the accused and against expansion of police rights...
Dave|10.15.08 @ 9:46PM|#
"Is Obama's answer to everything to just throw more money at
it?"
pretty much
|10.15.08 @ 9:46PM|#
McCain:
TAXES GOD DAMNIT! LETS TALK ABOUT TAXES!!!!
TAXES!!
FUCK HIM! DAMNIT DAMNIT DAMNIT!
Orange Line Special|10.15.08 @ 9:47PM|#
BHO lied
about his involvement with ACORN, which is much more extensive
- and recent - than he indicated. Now he's off on a distraction
about who his advisors are.
Note also his reaction to McCain's attack: he could barely speak
for a few seconds. If a regular citizen - not an MSM hack - really
pressed him on something who knows what he'd say?
|10.15.08 @ 9:47PM|#
I live in Ohio. There would be no oil checks here. We could be swimming in oil and there would be 18 million tax raise ballot issues.
BDB|10.15.08 @ 9:48PM|#
Joe--
I'm horrible at calling these things. I don't know what Joe Plumber
would say.
sage|10.15.08 @ 9:49PM|#
He, any of you guys had the Big Vinnie pizza from Round Table?
We're trying it tonight.
So is it still giant douche or turd sandwich?
Kolohe|10.15.08 @ 9:49PM|#
Navy Nuclear power is closer to 50 years.
Following her commissioning, Nautilus remained dockside for
further construction and testing. At 11:00 hours on January 17,
1955 she put to sea for the first time and signaled her historic
message: "Underway on nuclear power."
Kaiser|10.15.08 @ 9:50PM|#
Am I the only person still alive that finds this idea of global
warming to be bullshit? Er, let me rephrase that..."man made"
global warming. Don't get me wrong alternative energy is great but
should be pursued by private entities. Not something funded by the
government because of some widespread fear that if we don't stop
using oil right this second we will all implode.
Lest we not forget.... every time we breathe, we emit "green house
gasses" I say a good solution is for everyone who believes in
global warming just hold their breath for as long as possible every
day.
|10.15.08 @ 9:50PM|#
BDB,
The post-debate polls tonight and tomorrow and this weekend are
going to be substantially better for Barack Obama this time than
they were in the second debate, and those polls were pretty
good.
|10.15.08 @ 9:50PM|#
""Now let's talk about LoneWacko - useful idiot, or just
idiot?""
Useful. God has a plan even for people with special needs..
Kolohe|10.15.08 @ 9:51PM|#
Obama's answer always raises the question:
So why *can't* the Big 2 1/2 or 2 or whatever it's going to be
build fuel efficient cars, but the Asians can?
King of the Hill Dad|10.15.08 @ 9:51PM|#
"every time we breathe, we emit "green house
gasses""
Especially after eating some wicked Thai.
|10.15.08 @ 9:51PM|#
"Am I the only person still alive that finds this idea of global
warming to be bullshit?"
No, lots of people think its bullshit. And lots of people think
that angels visit Earth regularly.
BDB|10.15.08 @ 9:52PM|#
We'll see. I think McCain looks really uncomfortable and angry, but again I'm not Joe the Plumber in Methville.
Kolohe|10.15.08 @ 9:53PM|#
Wait, McCain's trying to make a point that Obama is not 'international' *enough*?
|10.15.08 @ 9:53PM|#
Oh my God, McCain's talking about drilling.
That barely worked when gas was four bucks.
|10.15.08 @ 9:53PM|#
Biden "has been on the right side" of the critical issues
throughout his career?
Of course I really can't expect McCain to point out how often Biden
called for military action and warned about Iraq's Weapons of Mass
Destruction.
|10.15.08 @ 9:53PM|#
Kaiser,
I don't care about global warming. I care about alternative energy
so the people of the Middle East can go back to their nomadic,
barely subsisting ways.
rhywun|10.15.08 @ 9:53PM|#
Am I the only person still alive that finds this idea of global warming to be bullshit?
I'll let the scienticians decide that one.
|10.15.08 @ 9:53PM|#
Did McCain just say he wants to send workers to community
college?
So they can one day be his VP?
JC|10.15.08 @ 9:53PM|#
I'm glad Matt Welch is tearing into Obama. I only ever saw him negative on McCain (his book and all). But it is nice to see he hates Obama pretty equally.
BDB|10.15.08 @ 9:54PM|#
McCain nearly lost it on Colombian free trade. I thought he was going to punch Obama in the face.
|10.15.08 @ 9:54PM|#
BDB,
Barack Obama has been hoping to get John McCain to act like this
for months, and tonight, he did.
alan|10.15.08 @ 9:54PM|#
labor is under killed per population in Columbia. as fucked up as that may sound, it is true.
|10.15.08 @ 9:54PM|#
JC,
Maybe Welch is a libertarian? Libertarians don't care for either of
these clowns..
|10.15.08 @ 9:55PM|#
Obama has never been to Mexico. That is funny. I thought he was Mr. World traveler.
Bingo|10.15.08 @ 9:55PM|#
Obama is guarantee that we can all spend money and buy
fuel-efficient cars and thus save the economy, the Big 2.5 AND the
environment.
It's so simple!
Kaiser|10.15.08 @ 9:56PM|#
"No, lots of people think its bullshit. And lots of people think
that angels visit Earth regularly."
I realize that the earth is in a warming trend. I also however
realize that it cools off. I don't believe that man made global
warming is real in any form. Coming at this from a scientific point
of view, we as people have only been on this planet for a fraction
of 1% of it's entire life. All of which, by the way, has been in a
warming period. To honestly believe that we have such a huge impact
on the planet in such a small amount of time seems to take a
certain level of arrogance that I can not attain.
|10.15.08 @ 9:56PM|#
The real question is how much of Mexico can Palin see from her house? Besides the Taco Bell down the street.
|10.15.08 @ 9:56PM|#
"Obama has never been to Mexico."
Neither has Sarah Palin, but she says she can see it from
Alaska
|10.15.08 @ 9:56PM|#
Hmm.. We'll give guarantees to the banking industry but need to help them manage their businesses... and we'll give guarantees to the auto industry but need to help them manage their businesses.....
John McCain|10.15.08 @ 9:56PM|#
Hello my friends, this is Johnny checking in. I just wanted to
say, my friends, that I appreciate your support for free markets. I
also like free markets, my friends.
I know how to make markets free.
I know how to make the economy freer.
We will lower taxes.
We will defeat this enemy.
My friends, I just have two words.
Bill Ayers.
Ironic|10.15.08 @ 9:57PM|#
Mr. Nice Guy, I believe in global warming, I just do not think humans have a (measurable) impact on it. Can you explain global warming on Mars? What about the Little Ice Age?
BDB|10.15.08 @ 9:57PM|#
It's really funny that whatever weakness Obama has, Palin has it ten times worse.
|10.15.08 @ 9:57PM|#
"Isn't it obvious?"
No.
*shrug* We got people who couldn't believe that anyone would think
Kerry was winning on the debate threads four years ago.
There's no accounting for taste, I guess.
Kolohe|10.15.08 @ 9:57PM|#
I can't see how Obama won't wipe the floor in the eyes of the voters in this healthcare segment
|10.15.08 @ 9:57PM|#
"Coming at this from a scientific point of view..."
Surely you can't honestly think the crap you typed after this is
actually a "scientific point of view," can you?
|10.15.08 @ 9:58PM|#
The thing they are saying about trade in this debate is just appalling. Why the hell can't McCain talk about Smoote Hawley? The Democrats have been yammering about a depression for the last two years. The simple answer is to say, yes we had a depression in 1932 and one of the biggest causes was protectionism. Now we have similiar cicumstances and Obama's sollution is to end free trade. Why the hell is that so hard to say?
King of the Hill Dad|10.15.08 @ 9:58PM|#
Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are perfect examples of what the government could do for your health care.
Bingo|10.15.08 @ 9:59PM|#
"Manage" heart disease and diabetes? Is this a reference to the "obesity epidemic"?
|10.15.08 @ 9:59PM|#
Kaiser,
I'm with you. But dependence on oil only continues the power of the
oil cartel. Oil is going to run out -- it's inevitable. The country
that kicks its dependency first will have a huge advantage over
everyone else.
Pendulum|10.15.08 @ 9:59PM|#
Excellent answer on health care by Obama.
McCain: put records on intertubez! save hlthcr!
Bingo|10.15.08 @ 9:59PM|#
Argh, physical fitness programs and nutrition programs. Fuck these assholes.
Kolohe|10.15.08 @ 9:59PM|#
We have physical fitness programs in schools.
That was Arnie's first political job.
|10.15.08 @ 10:00PM|#
Look, I don't want to threadjack, but when they ask the folks with Phd's in the relevant fields and who work in those fields every day if there is global warming that is effected by man, and the consensus, from the vast majority of them, from various nations, organizations, ideologies, etc., is yes, then I tend to defer to their judgment on that, yes.
|10.15.08 @ 10:00PM|#
While we are on global warming, the glaciers in Alaska actually go bigger this year. The winter is setting in in the artic earlier than any time on record. The tempature fell 0.7 degrees C in 2007 and seems on pace to fall some more this year. But hey, it is settled consensus.
alan|10.15.08 @ 10:00PM|#
BDB | October 15, 2008, 9:57pm | #
It's really funny that whatever weakness Obama has, Palin has it
ten times worse.
Sad more than funny. Hey JSM just said he is giving me some
money!
|10.15.08 @ 10:00PM|#
"Spread the wealth around" is the new "tire gauge."
Exactly the same people who repeated tire gauge fifty times a day
three months ago, thinking they've really got a winner now, are
going to repeat "spread the wealth around" fifty times a day,
thinking the same thing.
Ironic|10.15.08 @ 10:00PM|#
I am not watching the debate. I am only reading the liveblog. Am I missing anything?
|10.15.08 @ 10:00PM|#
"Damn you Sparky, that's twice tonight ;)"
I've been inspired by Joe the plumber.
BDB|10.15.08 @ 10:00PM|#
Who cares if global warming is man made or not? Cleaner energy is a good thing, anyway.
|10.15.08 @ 10:01PM|#
"Why the hell can't McCain talk about Smoote Hawley?"
Uhh, because it's just not a widely acknowledged fact that it
caused the Depression?
Kolohe|10.15.08 @ 10:01PM|#
Reagan Democrats.
Soccer Moms.
Nascar Dads.
Joe the Plumber.
Evolution bitches!
BobDobalina|10.15.08 @ 10:01PM|#
Well, Obama shot his Ayers-ACORN wad. Now what?
Meanwhile, Obama justs steps over the pile and promises more health
care, healing of the lepers, and eyesight to the blind (NOW, new
and improved with MORE Unicorns and Ponies!!!).
What's left for them to bullshit over in the last half hour?
Ahhh, Joe the Plumber just came back up. I hope that Joe has opened
up an account on CafePress and starts marketing himself
properly!!!
|10.15.08 @ 10:01PM|#
When he started talking about healthcare, McCain looked and sounded a bit like a funeral director discussing burial options.
SIV|10.15.08 @ 10:01PM|#
McCain's health care plan is one of the few things I like about his platform.Not that he could actually deliver on it as President though.
BDB|10.15.08 @ 10:01PM|#
How about "Joe the Plumber", Joe? Bill Bennett said pre-debate that "Joe the Plumber" would win the debate for McCain. I had no fucking idea what he was talking about, but now I do.
Ironic|10.15.08 @ 10:02PM|#
Mr. Nice Guy, many of them have be bribed -um excuse me I mean funded - by organizations with an agenda.
|10.15.08 @ 10:02PM|#
Because none of that is true, John.
John McCain just barely knows real economics, you can't expect him
to be up on fringe wacko stuff. He probably can't talk like a
goldbug, either.
Franklin Harris|10.15.08 @ 10:02PM|#
Joe the Plumber is the new version of William Raspberry's cabbie.
|10.15.08 @ 10:03PM|#
My God Obama is dumb as a stone. Can he say one extemporaneous thing? One thing that is not canned language? McCain must have had his brain rattled in that Hanoi cage. He should be killing jive ass moron.
|10.15.08 @ 10:03PM|#
"But hey, it is settled consensus."
Yeah John, all those Phd's never even thought to check that
evidence out and have no answer to that. You totally did their jobs
better than they did.
BTW-what other scientific consensuses have you seen through?
Enlighten us.
alan|10.15.08 @ 10:03PM|#
Mr. Nice Guy | October 15, 2008, 10:01pm | #
"Why the hell can't McCain talk about Smoote Hawley?"
Uhh, because it's just not a widely acknowledged fact that it
caused the Depression?
Like hell. Speaking of econ professors I had not a single one,
liberal, free market, or other wise who did not think it was a
major contributing factor.
BDB|10.15.08 @ 10:04PM|#
Who gives a fuck if its man made or not man made? Getting off of oil is a GOOD thing no matter what. It's such a stupid debate.
|10.15.08 @ 10:05PM|#
BDB,
Obama's answer about Joe the Plumber five years ago, when he wasn't
in a position to be buying a business or entering the top tax
bracket, needing the tax cut more, was immensely successful.
Jon B. Quick|10.15.08 @ 10:05PM|#
Why doesn't McCain talk about the fact that more Americans are
killed by illegal immigrants every year than died on 9/11? Go
defend Korea and Georgia you angry, elderly fascist.
I hope Plumber Joe's daughter gets raped by an illegal.
|10.15.08 @ 10:05PM|#
"Because none of that is true, John."
Smoote Hawley had nothing to do with the Depression? Are fucking
insane Joe? What history books have you been reading? If there is
one settled fact on like oh page 1 of the history of the depression
it is that Smoote hawley turned a down turn into a depression and
that the collapse of the world markets caused the depression to
last so long.
What else do you want to tell us tonight Joe? slavery had nothing
to do with the civil war? Taxes had nothing to do with the American
Revolution? Napoleon's invasion of Russia had nothing to do with
his downfall?
King of the Hill Dad|10.15.08 @ 10:05PM|#
Government healthcare:
- No, we don't provide lasik surgery for anyone over 50. You're
probably going to die and won't need your eyes much longer.
- Yes, we'll pay for your gastric bypass even though you're a big
fat lard ass that sits around and eats McDonalds all day every
day.
- Yes, your 13 year old on-her-way to sluthood daughter can come in
with her 17 year old crack head boyfriend and we'll make sure
they're prepared to have sex.
- No, you can't have that new kind of medicine. We want you to take
this old kind that the FDA hasn't gotten around to banning yet even
though it's induced strokes and blood clots in 43% of the people
who've taken it.
- Oh, and guess what. You're co-pay at your choice of doctor is
$75, but at the local HMO office next to the welfare office, it's
only five dollars.
Joe The Plumber|10.15.08 @ 10:05PM|#
Hey guys. I just have one thing to say to Senator
McCain...
FUCK YOU!
And to Senator Obama
FUCK YOU!
And to Bob Schiefer
FUCK YOU!
And to the Joe Six Packs...
FUCK YOU!
|10.15.08 @ 10:05PM|#
Ironic
There are so many thousands that agree...What % do you think are on
the take?
Jesus please stop with the Joe the Plumber shit. Jesus! Who the
fuck told him that line?
Kaiser|10.15.08 @ 10:06PM|#
Like I said don't get me wrong. I am all for alternative energies. I just don't believe it should be on the backs of the tax payers because the world has come to a consensus that we are fucking it up. I think the idea of man made global warming is a joke quite frankly, and just because the world is in some panic over it I have to pay more taxes?
|10.15.08 @ 10:06PM|#
Bill Bennett said pre-debate that "Joe the Plumber" would
win the debate for McCain.
It sounds like no matter what, Joe the Plumber is gonna be taking
it in the shorts.
Devil\'s Advocate|10.15.08 @ 10:06PM|#
Mr. Nice Guy | October 15, 2008, 10:00pm | #
And all the "experts" in the financial community told us that the
bailout bill was the cat's pajamas. When your in for a shitload of
other people's money its amazing how easy it is to build a
consensus.
Fluffy|10.15.08 @ 10:06PM|#
Uhh, because it's just not a widely acknowledged fact that
it caused the Depression?
Put the crack pipe down. It's the one factor contributing to the
Depression that is agreed upon by economists and historians of just
about every ideological stripe. Smoot Hawley has fewer defenders
than just about any legislation in US history, including the Alien
and Sedition Acts. You'd have to branch out into legal decisions
and use Plessy v. Ferguson or Dred Scott to find
something more universally disdained. And that might not even do
it. You might have to drag out the 3/5th's Compromise or the Trail
of Tears or something.
Ironic|10.15.08 @ 10:06PM|#
Please tell me that by some miracle neither of these people will be our next POTUS?
Kolohe|10.15.08 @ 10:07PM|#
And at the last minute, having exhausted all alternatives,
McCain selects a successful strategy and runs against
Congress.
And then promptly drops it.
BobDobalina|10.15.08 @ 10:07PM|#
Joe, I'm available to work as your Agent. My commission is 15%, right after Obama gets his share ...
|10.15.08 @ 10:07PM|#
You are right Joe. McCain could never talk about history or economics. No one would understand what he is talking about. If you are any indication of the level of historical literacy in this country, why bother?
tom from ohio|10.15.08 @ 10:07PM|#
The one merciful thing about this campaign is that we have not been subjected to blather about the "judges" issue. You know, until right this instant.
|10.15.08 @ 10:07PM|#
Smoote Hawley had nothing to do with the
Depression?
No, it has nothing to do with anything being discussed in
contemporary politics.
Deep breaths, John. Easy, big fella. Easy now.
Ironic|10.15.08 @ 10:08PM|#
"There are so many thousands that agree...What % do you think
are on the take? "
So many thousands. It is called "funding" often via tax dollars.
Funding, they want to keep getting funding.
Bingo|10.15.08 @ 10:08PM|#
Oh goody, I wonder what sort of ideological standards McCain would appoint to the Supreme Court.
Blue Light Special|10.15.08 @ 10:09PM|#
more Americans are killed by illegal immigrants every year than died on 9/11
What the fuck
|10.15.08 @ 10:09PM|#
"Speaking of econ professors I had not a single one, liberal,
free market, or other wise who did not think it was a major
contributing factor."
Well, that's a sample you can certainly generalize from! I mean,
certainly economists don't question that Smoot-Hawley caused the
Depression...
Like the guy who just won the Nobel in that subject?
John|10.15.08 @ 10:09PM|#
The most important thing is to "provide fairness and justice to the American people" or uphold and protect the Constitution. You know, same thing.
Bingo|10.15.08 @ 10:10PM|#
Both of these assholes are about as anti-1st amendment as you can get. Any rights you have should be subject to popular vote did I just hear that?
|10.15.08 @ 10:10PM|#
BTW-what other scientific consensuses have you seen through?
Enlighten us.
There are no other consensus you moron because that is not how
science is done. Every other field of science is done through
experimentation and predicable and repeatable results. Only global
warming is settled by "consensus". Just because someone in a lab
coat tells you its true doesn't mean it is. There are lots of
reputable scientists who don't buy global warming or if they do
think the predictions made about it are wildly out of line. they
are in the minority but that doesn't mean they are not right.
Kolohe|10.15.08 @ 10:11PM|#
Ledbetter was correctly decided. It's up to congress to 'fix the glitch' if they want to
|10.15.08 @ 10:11PM|#
ha! abortion! time for all good Republicans to grab their weenies and bellow in their best William F. Buckley voice, "God and Morality! God and Morality! Decency! Decency!"
Charles|10.15.08 @ 10:11PM|#
Reason bloggers, if you're going to list all the places McCain is not a federalist, you're going to miss the next twenty minutes of awesome, awesome debating.
tom from ohio|10.15.08 @ 10:11PM|#
"I'd love to hear whether Obama thinks the Second Amendment
should apply to the states."
I'd love to hear someone ask McCain if he even knows what
incorporation is.
Kolohe|10.15.08 @ 10:12PM|#
And inferring a right to 'equal pay' in the constitution is about the worse thing I've ever heard.
SIV|10.15.08 @ 10:12PM|#
Yes! McCain is taking Weigel's advice.
I bet he blows it though.C'mon John Wave that bloody baby!
Pendulum|10.15.08 @ 10:12PM|#
OMG Obama, please don't talk about Ledbetter. I'd like to vote
for you, but I can't do it if you talk like that.
Talk sweet to me. I like it when you do that "right to privacy"
thing. Do it again.
Fluffy|10.15.08 @ 10:12PM|#
MNG, produce a link to Krugman saying that Smoot-Hawley did not
contribute to the Depression, or stop being a dick.
Link. Produce it.
Since you almost certainly won't find such a link, produce a link
to a credible economist or historian who is willing to step up to
the plate to defend Smoot-Hawley.
Robert Reich is neither an economist nor a historian, by the
way.
|10.15.08 @ 10:13PM|#
Obama says that judges should ignore the law and just allow Betty to bring her case, dammit!
|10.15.08 @ 10:13PM|#
McCain's theme of hammering about taking Joe's money, raising
his taxes, and spreading the wealth around would have worked ten
years ago. Today, it just makes me want to punch him in the face
for being full of shit.
And Barr, fuck, he can't even go to the third party Cspan debate
this weekend. WHat is he, too good to hang around with the second
string.
|10.15.08 @ 10:13PM|#
No Joe no parralels. obama just wants to stick it to our allies by demanding the renegotiations of trade deals. He of course will meet with Iran no questions asked. Canada and Mexico, in contrast, need to toe the line and let us completely fuck them and like it. No, they would never retaliate and prevent our goods from going to their markets. Nope, they will just out of the goodness of their heart let us screw them and still love us for it. Renegotiate trade deals. Yeah that will help the US image around the world.
|10.15.08 @ 10:13PM|#
Oh yeah!? Joe the Plumber? How about Lillie the Goodyear Tire and Rubber Co. worker person?
|10.15.08 @ 10:13PM|#
"Strict adherence to the Constitution" might be aiming high. Wouldn't it be an improvement if SCOTUS members occasionally noticed the Constitution and the Bill of Rights?
Ian|10.15.08 @ 10:13PM|#
McCain: "We have to change the culture of America." We do?
What's wrong with our culture?
PC|10.15.08 @ 10:13PM|#
Yes there has been nothing but a clear and consistent consensus
on global cooling warming climate
change.
King of the Hill Dad|10.15.08 @ 10:14PM|#
Why in the hell are we talking about abortion? Please! I'd rather the welfare dead beats be able to get an easy abortion, instead of tax payers having another welfare mouth to feed.
|10.15.08 @ 10:14PM|#
There are no other consensus you moron because that is not
how science is done.
There's no consensus that electricity and magnetism are the same
force. There's no consensus that vitamin C cures scurvy. There's no
consensus that species evolved from earlier forms.
Oh wait, there is. Hey, moron, do you believe everything someone in
a lab coat tells you?
Climate scientists don't use observation to test hypotheses, which
they then refine based on the results, you moron. They all drop a
bunch of acid, see what they find in their notebooks the next
morning, and then agree that they're all going to say it's true,
just to screw you.
Moron.
|10.15.08 @ 10:15PM|#
"There are no other consensus you moron because that is not how
science is done. Every other field of science is done through
experimentation and predicable and repeatable results. Only global
warming is settled by "consensus"."
Sigh. Hundreds and hundreds of peer reviewed articles, reporting
the findings of thousands of scientists engaging in
experimentation, provide findings that, when read by other
thousands of experts, causes all of these varied experts to agree
that the evidence is there. Hence the consensus...
|10.15.08 @ 10:15PM|#
BTW, McCain's emphasizing "Joe the Plumber" to banish the "six-pack" fantasy. Why? The Busch wholesaler racket connection. It's starting to come out, and he doesn't want to encourage it.
Amakudari|10.15.08 @ 10:15PM|#
Like hell. Speaking of econ professors I had not a single
one, liberal, free market, or other wise who did not think it was a
major contributing factor.
Ditto. But Smoot-Hawley's not general knowledge and won't get any
play in a debate for a lay audience. Joe the Plumber don't like
it.
Maybe it's just me, but I wish McCain had pressed Obama on his
automaker comments. I mean, the Japanese have plenty of plants in
Ohio and Tennessee, so they bring their yen here and make cars in
America. And US taxpayers have been the backstop for the Big
Two/Two-Point-Five/Three for a while with just about zero positive
impact. I can understand why McCain wouldn't insult Detroit, but
then he shifts to some non sequitur about Chavez? Please.
(And my response is way behind.)
JC|10.15.08 @ 10:15PM|#
Is it possible to be pro-choice and think Roe v. Wade was bad jurisprudence? Or is it too hard for the majority of Americans to think about?
Mister DNA|10.15.08 @ 10:15PM|#
Ladies and gentlemen, tonight the role of Tom Servo will be played by Jesse Walker.
alan|10.15.08 @ 10:15PM|#
Mr. Nice Guy | October 15, 2008, 10:09pm | #
"Speaking of econ professors I had not a single one, liberal, free
market, or other wise who did not think it was a major contributing
factor."
Well, that's a sample you can certainly generalize from! I mean,
certainly economists don't question that Smoot-Hawley caused the
Depression...
Like the guy who just won the Nobel in that subject?
Do yourself a favor and change the subject.
|10.15.08 @ 10:16PM|#
Congratulations, boys (I guess you're all boys -- I'm not sure about "Fluffy") you're a lot more entertaining than those high-paid editors, assistant editors, chief editors, etc. from reason who are live-blogging.
King of the Hill Dad|10.15.08 @ 10:16PM|#
"Is it possible to be pro-choice and think Roe v. Wade was
bad jurisprudence? Or is it too hard for the majority of Americans
to think about?"
yep, very possible. That's where I am on it.
tom from ohio|10.15.08 @ 10:17PM|#
Allowing abortion to "protect the health of the mother" is an extremist pro-abortion stance? Uh, isn't that even more restrictive than U.S. law right now?
David Rollins|10.15.08 @ 10:17PM|#
The best part about watching the debate on CNBC? When Obama
starts speaking they put him in a box so they can show the Nikkei
losing 900 points.
Priorities, people.
Kolohe|10.15.08 @ 10:17PM|#
Math and Science ed. W00t!
(if the govt backs that *and* nuclear power I'll never have to
worry about having a job for the rest of my life)
tacos34|10.15.08 @ 10:17PM|#
the most interesting aspect of this debate is whether or not Horses is good (its not). Trout Mask Replica is however.
zeiner the lurker|10.15.08 @ 10:17PM|#
sorry, I'm watching the Rangers game.
The American People, and the Rangers, lose
I'm listening to the Blackhawks game (no dish or digital cable),
and the Blackhawks are up one at the end of the 2nd period.
I'm not sorry
My Name Is Sylar|10.15.08 @ 10:17PM|#
Am I the only person that doesn't pronounce economic with a long 'e'?
|10.15.08 @ 10:17PM|#
OK, everyone, the question is: what argument was this little
offering from John supposed to be a response to?
No Joe no parralels. obama just wants to stick it to our allies
by demanding the renegotiations of trade deals. He of course will
meet with Iran no questions asked. Canada and Mexico, in contrast,
need to toe the line and let us completely fuck them and like it.
No, they would never retaliate and prevent our goods from going to
their markets. Nope, they will just out of the goodness of their
heart let us screw them and still love us for it. Renegotiate trade
deals. Yeah that will help the US image around the
world.
The answer is, Barack Obama's statements on trade are not like the
Smoot-Hawley Bill.
Quick, John, tell us the three most important features of
Smoot-Hawley!
|10.15.08 @ 10:17PM|#
Moderator says "we spend more money...and we suck!"
Obama says, "Throw more money at it! That oughta work!"
|10.15.08 @ 10:18PM|#
Maybe Obama is lying about trade and it is boob bait for the bubbas. We can only hope.
PC|10.15.08 @ 10:18PM|#
There is also a clear consensus by the experts that George Bush has caused economic distress with his fundamentalist laissez faire government run amok.
Mister DNA|10.15.08 @ 10:18PM|#
Joe the Plumber thinks The Angry Samoans' Back From Samoa is better than Horses or Trout Mask Replica.
Kaiser|10.15.08 @ 10:19PM|#
Lest we not forget that just 30 years ago the scientific world was at a "consensus" that we were in a downward spiral of global COOLING for the exact same reason as todays warming trend.
rhywun|10.15.08 @ 10:19PM|#
Am I the only person that doesn't pronounce economic with a long 'e'?
No.
Kolohe|10.15.08 @ 10:19PM|#
We are going to stoke the thirst for knowledge and then put a firehose on it!
|10.15.08 @ 10:19PM|#
Yes there has been nothing but a clear and consistent
consensus on global cooling warming climate change.
See, you can tell global warming is bullshit, because scientists
have changed their theories as more data was gathered.
Sure, that makes sense.
|10.15.08 @ 10:20PM|#
Joe,
It wasn't a trad edeal it was a tarraf deal. I can't remember the
percentages but it like trippled the tarrifs on thousands of
different imported goods. It was straight out of the Pat Buchanan,
we don't need an income tax we can pay for the government with
tarriffs like we used to under John Quincy Adams, economic
playbook.
BakedPenguin|10.15.08 @ 10:20PM|#
The connection between GDP and education spending is that freer, wealthier nations can spend more on education than poorer ones.
Kaiser|10.15.08 @ 10:21PM|#
"Why isn't McCain wearing a flag pin?"
Good call. My guess is he is a terrorist.....
|10.15.08 @ 10:21PM|#
That is a good point Penguin. I wish someone would make it in one of these debates. We get to argue about how many trillions we should spend on education because we are rich. Other places don't get that luxury.
SIV|10.15.08 @ 10:22PM|#
Econ question?
What would you rather have, a wallet full of Icelandic Krona or
Korean Won? I can't wait till they start saying this is the worst
economic crisis since the Panic of 1873.
|10.15.08 @ 10:22PM|#
An Army of new Teachers? Do we really need to militarize
education also?
Sure. The teachers might as well make themselves useful.
PC|10.15.08 @ 10:22PM|#
joe | October 15, 2008, 10:19pm | #
No it means we should shitcan our economy and greatly lower our
standard of living for a concept that changes with the weather
patterns.
|10.15.08 @ 10:22PM|#
so, Obama realizes that NCLB is an unfunded mandate pushed on the states...and instead of saying "hmmm, that's not right. Let's repeal the mandate" he says "hmmm...let's throw billions of New York tax dollars at Louisiana schools!".
Obama|10.15.08 @ 10:22PM|#
If we have bad teachers, then get rid of them and let Bill Ayres run the school! He's got some good contacts.
REQ|10.15.08 @ 10:22PM|#
America's schools suck because we have too manty blacks and Mexicans, who have low IQs.
|10.15.08 @ 10:24PM|#
It wasn't a trad edeal it was a tarraf deal.
It was not a "tarraf deal," John, it was a bill passed by the
United States Congress.
I can't remember the percentages Wow, no kidding
but it like trippled the tarrifs on thousands of different
imported goods.
So, the consequence of not passing a CAFTA bill without labor and
worker protection standards will be to "like tripple the tarrifs on
thousands of different imported goods," will it? Are you sure about
that?
|10.15.08 @ 10:24PM|#
"fluffy
Check out Krugman's book Peddling Prosperity as well"
i read that book in college. It is pretty good. It was before
Krugman got a NYT gig and went insane. It is on my bookshelf
somewhere. I don't recall him making the case for Smoot Hawley in
it.
|10.15.08 @ 10:24PM|#
We trail European nations in education because we have many more students from less academically talented ethnic groups (though our Asians and Jews compensate for this somewhat).
Charles|10.15.08 @ 10:24PM|#
There is no imaginable field these two men don't think that the federal government should be more involved in. Education? Health care? Sexually satisfying your spouse? Poor short game? Federal dollars will solve the problem.
Tobycat|10.15.08 @ 10:25PM|#
McCain should have spent his entire time elucidating what HE believes in, and trying to put forth some sort of ideological vision, (if he's capable of that). Instead he wasted tons of time being on the attack, which a hopeless strategy for him.
Kaiser|10.15.08 @ 10:25PM|#
I personally find the idea of public schooling to be a joke. For a number of reasons that I don't care to get into here because the system is so convoluted. The main issue is just that anytime government reaches their grubby hands into something it seems to get much worse.
|10.15.08 @ 10:26PM|#
Kaiser
So what do you think is up with all of those professional
organizations of scientists in the relevant fields, many of them
international ones, that disagree with you.
You think you have read the relevant data with the relevant
expertise better than they have? You see the hidden truth they are
en masse missing?
Get real man.
Caligula|10.15.08 @ 10:26PM|#
Sarah Palin understands disabled people. That is why she cut funding for disabilities programs.
|10.15.08 @ 10:26PM|#
"So, the consequence of not passing a CAFTA bill without labor
and worker protection standards will be to "like tripple the
tarrifs on thousands of different imported goods," will it? Are you
sure about that?"
No Joe, it will just screw the people of Columbia as a reward for
fighting an insurgency that was fueled by our drug habbits and
laws. Those "worker protections" are nothing but poison pills. The
poeple of Columbia want the ability to sell their goods to our
consumers. They really don't need you or Obama telling them how to
run their government.
Yes, I know Smoote Hawley was an act. It was a tarriff on nearly
every imported good.
King of the Hill Dad|10.15.08 @ 10:27PM|#
"Sexually satisfying your spouse?"
Government healthcare issued viagra!
Just make sure your woman gets the birth control too.
Bingo|10.15.08 @ 10:27PM|#
How about we compromise and provide free abortions for all disabled fetuses? We can come together and solve the problem of special needs education!
|10.15.08 @ 10:28PM|#
BDB - I know that, but still...D.C. sucks. I was born there and raised there and I never want to go back.
SIV|10.15.08 @ 10:28PM|#
This "debate" would have been painful if not for the 20mg of oxycodone I took.damn I'm going to miss it when it is gone.
Kolohe|10.15.08 @ 10:29PM|#
We got to stop the spending that mortgage's your kids futures so that we can spend on mortgages *today.*
Kaiser|10.15.08 @ 10:29PM|#
Mr. Nice Guy
Absolutely not. I guess what I am really saying is, is that in my
opinion, I think it is bullshit. However in reality, as with many
things in life, I don't know. I just don't know. There is data to
support both sides of the argument and until more time has passed
there is no definitive answer for the climate change.
rhywun|10.15.08 @ 10:29PM|#
Radley, I agree somewhat about college loans, but do you really think that everyone wouldn't be borrowing and in debt if the government got out?
|10.15.08 @ 10:29PM|#
PC,
Little heads up for you: if you base your political positions on
the understanding of objective reality, rather than basing your
understanding of objective reality on your political positions,
you'll be dead wrong a lot less often about both.
It doesn't fucking matter if you don't like taxes. Human activity
is causing global temperatures to rise, whether that happens to be
a convenient fact for advancing your preferred political positions
or not.
You know, if your ideology didn't suck so much, there wouldn't be
these huge areas where it has nothing to say.
Fluffy|10.15.08 @ 10:29PM|#
MNG,
In his column "The Rove Doctrine" Krugman admonished the Bush
administration for pursuing a steel tariff policy that would damage
the world economy, and included the quote, "Smoot Hawley
anyone?"
http://archives.econ.utah.edu/archives/pkt/2002m06/msg00025.htm
In a column attacking Bush's Medicare bill Krugman used Smoot
Hawley as the standard by which to measure bad and
counterproductive legislation:
http://www.medkb.com/Uwe/Forum.aspx/asthma/249/Krugman-on-AARP
BTW, your link is not to a Krugman essay or column. It's to a
column by somebody else that references Krugman in only a single
line, with a single word, actually, in which the author
represents that Krugman has said that assigning Smoot Hawley
complete and total blame for the Depression is "incredible". And it
would be incredible to assign all the blame for the Depression to a
single piece of legislation. It would be just as incredible to
claim that it did not contribute to or worsen the economic
dislocation of the early 30's.
|10.15.08 @ 10:29PM|#
David Weigel: If this was a serious country the Ayers debate
would be about his crackfuckpot ideas on education (which Obama
shares) versus school choice. Sadly, we're not Austria.
Is that some kind of Kurt Waldheim reference?
Kolohe|10.15.08 @ 10:30PM|#
How about we compromise and provide free abortions for all
disabled fetuses? We can come together and solve the problem of
special needs education!
As long as there's equal pay for abortion doctors as adoption
workers.
Bingo|10.15.08 @ 10:30PM|#
What about the old people that want to go to college? Why is Obama discriminating against the elderly?
|10.15.08 @ 10:30PM|#
Kaiser
On things I don't know about, I defer to the experts in the
relevant fields. In fact, everyone does this on issues that don't
have any ideological overtones. To not do so would be akin to being
crazy.
|10.15.08 @ 10:31PM|#
Man oh man
The CSPAN post-debate calling session is about to start!!!!
But Look - now the real entertainment begins, My friends.
PC|10.15.08 @ 10:32PM|#
It requires all Americans to come together [and embrace
socialism].
If this debate is any indicator it appears that we are well on our
way.
|10.15.08 @ 10:32PM|#
Here is a question I would love to ask in one of these. What do you think of Bretton Woods? Would the lack of environmental and labor controls in the agreement have caused you not to support the agreement? I would love to see the deer in the headlights looks.
|10.15.08 @ 10:32PM|#
We trail European nations in education because we have many
more students from less academically talented ethnic groups (though
our Asians and Jews compensate for this somewhat).
China has 1.3 billion Asians. Maybe they could loan us a few. Why
not? They've loaned us everything else.
|10.15.08 @ 10:32PM|#
No Joe....blah blah blah blah blah.
So now, you're acknowledging that your earlier statement comparing
Obama's position on trade deals to Smooth Hawley, which you felt
the need to swear at me for disputing, is complete bullshit.
OK.
Jerry|10.15.08 @ 10:32PM|#
Matt Welch: do you think there is a market for a "McCain's failed campaign" book?
Kolohe|10.15.08 @ 10:33PM|#
Radley, I agree somewhat about college loans, but do you
really think that everyone wouldn't be borrowing and in debt if the
government got out?
I just looked it up. Va Tech's site says the annual total cost
(in-state) is $13,600 (on the low end). When I graduated in '95, it
was less than $6K. Rule of 72 says that's about 6% per year
increase.
|10.15.08 @ 10:33PM|#
I don't know who was better at the policy points, but in the emotional imagery department, McCain's twitchiness, gritting and grinding, and snark was offputting.
|10.15.08 @ 10:34PM|#
Okay Joe. Your defense is Obama's position on trade is not quite as bad as one of the most universially dispised pieces of legislation in history. Wow, I feel so much better now.
|10.15.08 @ 10:34PM|#
Well fluffy, let's not talk past ourselves, my whole point is
that people that say it was THE cause are crazy. And there are such
people.
My quote that started all of this:
"Uhh, because it's just not a widely acknowledged fact that it
caused the Depression?"
It did not cause the Depression. Lots of complicated shit led to
and sustained the GD. That's always been my point about these
things. Go back and look at my old Smoot Hawley posts.
PC|10.15.08 @ 10:34PM|#
College for all!!!
Great more fucking idiots dragging down the educational system and
making it more expensive. Twenty years from now we will need
something past a PHD just to establish that the student has basic
competency.
Tom Walls (Fla. not FL)|10.15.08 @ 10:35PM|#
John McCain: The Autism President.
Barack Obama: the Big O (those undecided Ohio womens sure liked
him)
Telly|10.15.08 @ 10:35PM|#
Obama smirked quite a bit. He's just too cool and smooth, too emotionless. No heart.
Kaiser|10.15.08 @ 10:35PM|#
Mr. Nice Guy
That is where we tend to disagree it would seem. For instance, I
don't believe in God, however there are many great men and women,
"experts" you might say that would tell me he/she is real. Do I
just default to them because I don't know? I will grant you this
wasn't the best example because climate change is a science and
religion is an idea but I hope that you at least see the point I
was trying to make. For every scientist/expert you can find for me
that will vouch for man made climate change, I can find one that
disagrees. After studying the information I have found I have come
to the conclusion that it is bullshit. However like I said in
reality I just don't know. That doesn't mean however that I will
just default my beliefs to the so called "experts."
|10.15.08 @ 10:35PM|#
Twenty years from now we will need something past a PHD just
to establish that the student has basic competency.
I always thought that a post-PhD degree should be called a
"Chancellorship".
|10.15.08 @ 10:36PM|#
Matt Welch: do you think there is a market for a "McCain's
failed campaign" book?
I'm looking forward to Tina Fey stretching her dramatic chops in
the Lifetime movie Epic Fail: The Sarah Palin Story.
|10.15.08 @ 10:37PM|#
Fluffy
Check out p.93-94 of the Krugman book I cited above, he himself
lays it on what he calls the "supply siders" who advocate that
Smoot Hawley was the cause of the Depression.
|10.15.08 @ 10:37PM|#
College for all. How long before the student loan banking collapse? We are gaurenteeing debt like crazy. The price of education is going up at an unsustainable rate just like housing. Millions of people have government gaurenteed loans. How long before the default rate sky rockets and the banks take it in the shorts on that?
rhywun|10.15.08 @ 10:37PM|#
When I graduated in '95, it was less than $6K
My point is that even the lowest amount requires loans and debt for
the vast majority of us.
Palpatine|10.15.08 @ 10:37PM|#
I always thought that a post-PhD degree should be called a
"Chancellorship".
I like how you think, my young friend.
Nigel Watt|10.15.08 @ 10:38PM|#
We trail European nations in education because we have many more students from less academically talented ethnic groups (though our Asians and Jews compensate for this somewhat).
Ho-kay.
PC|10.15.08 @ 10:38PM|#
Kaiser | October 15, 2008, 10:35pm | #
Yeah you alluded to another thing that bugs me about global
cooling warming climate change. When
science seems to pick up where religion left off I grow just as
skeptical of it as I am of religion.
|10.15.08 @ 10:38PM|#
"For every scientist/expert you can find for me that will vouch
for man made climate change, I can find one that disagrees."
Kaiser, that is simply factually wrong. Even opponents of man made
global warming acknowledge their experts are a minority when they
decry the whole "consensus" thing.
|10.15.08 @ 10:38PM|#
I'm curious: if Joe Plumber wanted to buy a business that would
provide him with $250,000 in income, how much would that business
cost? Would Obama's tax hike affect the viability of such a
business as much as interest rates, availability of loans and
regulatory costs?
I'm not saying Obama would be better for such a business owner, but
it would seem that a plumbing business would have to have revenue
of close to a million bucks to give the owner a $250,000 income.
No?
Bingo|10.15.08 @ 10:38PM|#
So I heard a whole bunch of neat ideas except for the one little
detail of how to pay for them.
Fiscal conservatism just took a shot in the ass tonight.
Andy|10.15.08 @ 10:39PM|#
So, I was assigned for my Constitutional Law class to make note of all the mentions of the Constitution. All one of them. Anyone remember it?
Gilbert Martin|10.15.08 @ 10:40PM|#
So Obama, a typical liberal democrat in the pocket of the
teacher unions, is going to "fix" education.
Sure.
He doled out millions of the Chicago Annenburg Challenge's money to
ostensibly "improve" the schools there and achieved absolutely
nothing.
|10.15.08 @ 10:40PM|#
well, McCain talked about the Constitution when it came to
abortion, but in all fairness, I am sure he didn't know what he was
talking about.
Maybe Joe Biden can help you. He seems to think the VP's role is
defined in Article I.
rhywun|10.15.08 @ 10:40PM|#
Fiscal conservatism just took a shot in the ass tonight.
I didn't hear either of them mention "cutting spending". Oof.
King of the Hill Dad|10.15.08 @ 10:41PM|#
We trail European nations in education because we have to slow down for the lazy dead beat brats who just cause trouble and don't do their work. But we can't do effectively anything about it, because we have to make sure no one gets their feelings hurt.
Kolohe|10.15.08 @ 10:42PM|#
will there be a college-tuition bubble?
True fact: Student loans are not dischargable in bankruptcy.
Invest in student loans now! There's no way you can lose
money!
(Actually, you can buy stock in the parent company of Univ of
Phoenix)
rhywun|10.15.08 @ 10:43PM|#
"You should have run 4 years ago."
Mr. McCain was a bit of dick tonight, wasn't he.
Balsim|10.15.08 @ 10:43PM|#
TAO - actually a part of the VP's powers are in Article I, the part about him being President of the Senate and casting tie breaking votes, more powers than are defined in for the VP in Article II
Mr. Chartreuse|10.15.08 @ 10:44PM|#
will there be a college-tuition bubble?
When Fannie and Freddie start buying college loan backed
securities, I'll go for the McGraw-Hill stock
[Disco Stu] If these trends continue...aaay![/Disco Stu]
|10.15.08 @ 10:44PM|#
"True fact: Student loans are not dischargable in
bankruptcy."
I cringed when Obama made the case that Biden always fights for the
little man. He could have at least made the caveat that Biden sides
with the little man unless a credit card company is involved.
rhywun|10.15.08 @ 10:45PM|#
We trail European nations in education because...
...we expect every child to complete (nearly) the same coursework
in the same 12 years, rather than the out-of-vogue tracking into
various fields that is (was?) common in Europe.
Next.
Jerry|10.15.08 @ 10:46PM|#
The reason why America trails Europe in education is because of the HS system. In Europe, you will not find someone vying for a university education in the same high school class as someone who only wants to become a mechanic.
Bingo|10.15.08 @ 10:46PM|#
We should buy every autistic child an electric car (not from Japan or Korea).
alan|10.15.08 @ 10:47PM|#
Fiscal conservatism just took a shot in the ass
tonight.
Fiscal conservatism was the third man getting shot up in the last
scene of Bonnie and Clyde.
Orange Line Special|10.15.08 @ 10:47PM|#
One of the reasons why we trail other nations is because, despite all libruhtarian attempts to say otherwise, we've had immigration by millions of uneducated people who don't have a strong cultural emphasis on education. If you disagree, please point to actual studies showing such a cultural emphasis, and not from paid-off hacks.
Paul|10.15.08 @ 10:47PM|#
We trail European nations in education because...
Most important election ever blah blah blah.
I just picked up a "Previously Viewed" widescreen DVD copy of I
Am Legend at 7-11 for $9.
Kaiser|10.15.08 @ 10:48PM|#
PC
"Yeah you alluded to another thing that bugs me about global
cooling warming climate change. When science seems to pick up where
religion left off I grow just as skeptical of it as I am of
religion."
I completely agree. Quite frankly I don't see global climate change
as anything but a religion. Religion is having faith in something
you can not prove and to me man made climate change is just
that.
Mr. Nice Guy
"Kaiser, that is simply factually wrong. Even opponents of man made
global warming acknowledge their experts are a minority when they
decry the whole "consensus" thing."
That may or may not be true, however I believe you missed the point
of my post. The bigger point I was trying to make is that just
because I don't know something, I shouldn't just default my beliefs
to the so called "experts."
King of the Hill dad|10.15.08 @ 10:48PM|#
"In Europe, you will not find someone vying for a university
education in the same high school class as someone who only wants
to become a mechanic."
I agree, but that would have all kinds of discrimination screaming
in this country.
Fluffy|10.15.08 @ 10:49PM|#
MNG,
OK, if what you're saying is that it is not considered the sole
cause of the Depression, well, duh.
But I don't know of anyone who has ever claimed that it was the
sole cause of the Depression, so if Krugman devoted 2 pages to
attacking such a claim, he was fighting a man of straw.
rhywun|10.15.08 @ 10:49PM|#
The reason why America trails Europe in education is because of the HS system.
However, when I lived in Germany (late 80's), in many localities
they were busy implementing American-style "comprehensive" schools
(Gesamtschule). I don't know how far they got with that, or whether
other countries did it.
BDB|10.15.08 @ 10:49PM|#
People hated Ayers in the focus groups. Even Republicans didn't like the Ayers attack. FAIL!
|10.15.08 @ 10:51PM|#
"In Europe, you will not find someone vying for a university
education in the same high school class as someone who only wants
to become a mechanic."
I dunno. I was always in advanced classes, and there were also AP
classes and an IB program.
Libertarian|10.15.08 @ 10:51PM|#
Hmmmmmmmmmmm, who should I vote for? I just can't decide. The fascist or the socialist? After this debate, I need a shower.
BDB|10.15.08 @ 10:51PM|#
You know, John McCain is right. He isn't George W. Bush.
George W. Bush got elected President.
|10.15.08 @ 10:54PM|#
About 2/3 of the way through the debate (which I watched with Bob Barr's comments throughout, courtesy of the streaming real-time video feed mentioned in another H&R article - thanks!) I noticed that the split screen of the candidates had the crazy effect of making them look like Siamese Twins (or is the modern PC term, "conjoined"?). How disturbing an image, but, given the Tweedledum/Tweedledee nature of this year's DemoPublican race, how oddly appropriate and illustrative. Young/old, black/white, Demo/GOP -- those "differences" are only illusory. This creature may have two heads, not to mention two yapping mouths, but only one heart, which apparently beats to increase the size and scope of government. How can anyone with even a smattering of libertarian sentiment in his or her own heart not recoil at the sight of the terrible, grotesque, ObamacCain?
Charles|10.15.08 @ 10:54PM|#
You know, John McCain is right. He isn't George W.
Bush.
George W. Bush got elected President.
BA ZING!
|10.15.08 @ 10:54PM|#
Public works programs and tax hikes are coming to save us from
the next Depression!
Only took 10 years to work last time!
rhywun|10.15.08 @ 10:54PM|#
millions of uneducated people
Europe has also attracted millions of "uneducated" (I guess that
means "non-English-speaking"?) people.
the innominate one|10.15.08 @ 10:55PM|#
Global cooling in general can refer to an overall cooling of the
Earth. In this article it refers primarily to a conjecture during
the 1970s of imminent cooling of the Earth's surface and atmosphere
along with a posited commencement of glaciation. This
hypothesis never had significant scientific support, but gained
temporary popular attention due to a combination of press reports
that did not accurately reflect the scientific understandings of
ice age cycles; and a slight downward trend of
temperatures from the 1940s to the early 1970s. Scientific
consensus is that the Earth has not durably cooled, but undergone
global warming throughout the 20th century.
thanks, wikipedia! (emphasis mine)
SIV|10.15.08 @ 10:56PM|#
I hate to C&P something this big but did anybody see this
Ben Smith thing on Politico from a GOP consultant:
Reagan Dems and Independents. Call them blue-collar plus.
Slightly more Target than Walmart.
Yes, the spot worked. Yes, they believed the charges against Obama.
Yes, they actually think he's too liberal, consorts with bad people
and WON'T BE A GOOD PRESIDENT...but they STILL don't give a f***.
They said right out, "He won't do anything better than McCain" but
they're STILL voting for Obama.
The two most unreal moments of my professional life of watching
focus groups:
54 year-old white male, voted Kerry '04, Bush '00, Dole '96,
hunter, NASCAR fan...hard for Obama said: "I'm gonna hate him the
minute I vote for him. He's gonna be a bad president. But I won't
ever vote for another god-damn Republican. I want the government to
take over all of Wall Street and bankers and the car companies and
Wal-Mart run this county like we used to when Reagan was
President."
The next was a woman, late 50s, Democrat but strongly pro-life.
Loved B. and H. Clinton, loved Bush in 2000. "Well, I don't know
much about this terrorist group Barack used to be in with that
Weather guy but I'm sick of paying for health insurance at work and
that's why I'm supporting Barack."
I felt like I was taking crazy pills. I sat on the other side of
the glass and realized...this really is the Apocalypse. The Seventh
Seal is broken and its time for eight years of pure, delicious
crazy....
Hilarious anecdotal evidence of how fucked the country is right
now.
|10.15.08 @ 10:57PM|#
Lamar, these programs are not funded by taxpayers
though?
Well, they're standard public high school fare as far as I know.
Admittedly, I'm only talking about my experience.
|10.15.08 @ 10:57PM|#
Europe has also attracted millions of "uneducated" (I guess
that means "non-English-speaking"?) people.
Yes, and they're enjoying every minute of it.
BDB|10.15.08 @ 10:58PM|#
I do expect that continental Europe WOULD have millions of
non-English speaking people since, you know, that's not their first
language.
Psst! I heard they have people that speak SPANISH, too!
rhywun|10.15.08 @ 10:59PM|#
Yes, AP and IB classes are standard in many public high schools. The problem is on the "low" end, where we expect them to take the same subjects as everyone else, but dumbed down a little. Yeah, there are some "tech" schools (there was one where I grew up, Rochester) but probably not enough.
Mr. Chartreuse|10.15.08 @ 11:00PM|#
Old article, from 1999, but one guy wanted to get rid of the
current high school system and have kids going to college (or
vocational schools, internships, etc.) at 16
http://www.businessweek.com/archives/1999/b3644032.arc.htm
|10.15.08 @ 11:00PM|#
# Ironic | October 15, 2008, 10:06pm | #
# Please tell me that by some miracle
# neither of these people will be our next POTUS?
Be the miracle you want to see in the world. Vote for Libertarian
Bob Barr for President.
rhywun|10.15.08 @ 11:01PM|#
Yes, and they're enjoying every minute of it.
I don't know what that means, but I was trying to point out that
having millions of immigrants is not a recipe for a dumb populace
as Mr. Line claims.
|10.15.08 @ 11:01PM|#
"Yes, AP and IB classes are standard in many public high
schools. The problem is on the "low" end, where we expect them to
take the same subjects as everyone else, but dumbed down a
little."
Fair to say. It isn't that people are in the same class as
underachievers, it's that the underachievers are put through a
similar college-prep curriculum but dumbed down so that even if
they are diligent they aren't prepared for college.
BDB|10.15.08 @ 11:01PM|#
CBS insta snap poll:
53% say Obama won debate, 22% McCain, 24% say tie.
28% committed to vote O, 14% committed to vote M.
Obama/Biden is now 4-0.
Barack HUSSEIN Obama|10.15.08 @ 11:07PM|#
The first day I'm elected, I'm going to pardon Charlie Manson, my good friend since I was eight. Look, I have seen the book keeping, and anyone who wants to be president in 2008 would have to be crazy. Calm, cool, collected Obama. No, not me.
SIV|10.15.08 @ 11:08PM|#
BDB,
Aren't those "who won the debate" polls skewed by the sample? A
disproportionate number of Obama voters are actually watching the
debate
and the sample reflects viewers.
FWIW, I scored Mccain in the first,draw in the second,Palin in the
veep, and it doesn't really matter any more in the third.
I don't know if it is the format or the candidates but I just don't
see clear "winners" in these things.
|10.15.08 @ 11:11PM|#
Most of the pundits are giving it to McCain so far. We'll see if that's reflected in the polls.
BDB|10.15.08 @ 11:11PM|#
There will be more Democrats in those polls, but only because there are more Democrats in the country now.
That\'s Mr. Orange Line Specia|10.15.08 @ 11:14PM|#
rhywun writes: I was trying to point out that having
millions of immigrants is not a recipe for a dumb populace as Mr.
Line claims.
No, of
course not!
|10.15.08 @ 11:17PM|#
Silver lining: If McCain did badly enough--and I think he did--it won't be a close race. If it's not a close race, Barr might get more votes and maybe it won't be as huge a turnout as expected. The lower the turnout the harder it is for Obama to proclaim a mandate.
rhywun|10.15.08 @ 11:20PM|#
No, of course not!
So if the problem is assimilation, why not advocate policies that
might address that, rather than policies which restrict individual
freedom?
alan|10.15.08 @ 11:21PM|#
'cause every body knows what smarties the basic American stock
is in comparison. In fact, Orange Line, I would hazard a guess you
don't have to suppress the sniffles
when Bill Murray gives his great patriot speech in Stripes. Any one
who doesn't is not a real American. It is the only test that really
matters.
|10.15.08 @ 11:31PM|#
John McCain is like the 2001-2004 Philadelphia Eagles of elections. Both get asymptotically closer to winning the big game.
Orange Line Special|10.15.08 @ 11:42PM|#
rhywun asks: So if the problem is assimilation, why not
advocate policies that might address that, rather than policies
which restrict individual freedom?
Gosh, I dunno. Perhaps because those who obtain
MassivePoliticalPower through MassiveImmigration tend to oppose and
work to block such policies. I'm just guessing, based on
covering this issue for several years. Maybe Weigel knows
better.
Orange Line Special|10.15.08 @ 11:45PM|#
Speaking about the Reason Circle (previously called a "circle jerk"), has anyone noticed that those links from Insty that aren't affiliate links to Amazon many times head to sites inside the PJM walls or sporting a PJM banner? Perhaps Reason should consider joining up! They have nothing to lose, and by that I mean no standards to lose.
|10.15.08 @ 11:47PM|#
"Gosh, I dunno. Perhaps because those who obtain
MassivePoliticalPower through MassiveImmigration tend to oppose and
work to block such policies."
The presence of a powerful interest group means that individual
freedoms should be restricted?
Tacos mmm...|10.16.08 @ 12:04AM|#
One of the reasons why we trail other nations is because, despite all libruhtarian attempts to say otherwise, we've had immigration by millions of uneducated people who don't have a strong cultural emphasis on education.
The largest of these mass immigrations, of course, taking place in
the first three quarters of the 18th century and consisting
primarily of people from northern Ireland.
rhywun|10.16.08 @ 12:09AM|#
Jesus, Orange, the La Raza boogeyman is so tired. Do you have AnyOtherPointsToMake?
|10.16.08 @ 12:10AM|#
RL wrote: "The lower the turnout the harder it is for Obama to
proclaim a mandate."
Pardon me while I laugh hysterically. Turnout out is irrelevant to
whether a politician is gauged to have a "mandate".
fortyouncer|10.16.08 @ 12:14AM|#
I don't know enough about this joe the plumber, but he's
probably talking about a business that grosses 250K, which means
that after expenses, he will be in a low tax bracket. Which means
Obama's plan will beneift him.
Saddest part is that McCain is talking about spreading the wealth
around when he wants to take my money and bailout stupid
homebuyers.
John|10.16.08 @ 12:16AM|#
Bill Clinton received only 43% of the popular vote in 1992, with
a 55% turnout of the voting-age population.
Time magazine called it a "Mandate for Change," and they'll do the
exact same thing for Obama whether he wins by a quarter of a point
or by twenty points.
http://www.time.com/time/covers/0,16641,19921116,00.html
|10.16.08 @ 12:21AM|#
My question is: what would a McCain or Obama presidency do for the lamentable state of rock music?
Asharak|10.16.08 @ 12:31AM|#
I honestly thought McCain was doing a decent job when he started
out, but then halfway into it, he just started running out of
steam.
And when McCain claimed that Colombia was an ally in fighting drug
trafficking, I literally fell out of my chair laughing.
He really blew it on the abortion issue, too.
Frito Pendejo|10.16.08 @ 12:42AM|#
PC | October 15, 2008, 10:34pm | #
College for all!!!
Great more fucking idiots dragging down the educational system and making it more expensive. Twenty years from now we will need something past a PHD just to establish that the student has basic competency.
Yah, I went to law school in Costco. I couldn't believe I got in,
luckily my dad was an alumnus and pulled some strings.
LS, OLS|10.16.08 @ 12:44AM|#
Lamar writes: The presence of a powerful interest group
means that individual freedoms should be restricted?
I really shouldn't waste my time, but the vast majority of
Americans - i.e., the people libruhtarians would gladly screw over
- don't support giving foreign citizens the "individual freedom" to
move to the U.S. if they want to.
And, if libruhtarians had a brain, they'd realize that everytime
they support illegal activity, a JohnPoindexter-style idea grows
its wings.
If you want more, get a Reason contributor to say it. I'll spend
the time discrediting them, but not an endless line of
sockpuppets.
Syd|10.16.08 @ 12:49AM|#
It's really sad Joe Biden has to moonlight as a plumber, but it's good he has a sixpack with which to console himself on weekends.
Ombudsman|10.16.08 @ 12:53AM|#
The largest of these mass immigrations, of course, taking
place in the first three quarters of the 18th century
I believe that should be 19th century.
Asharak|10.16.08 @ 1:05AM|#
Jesus, Orange, the La Raza boogeyman is so tired. Do you
have AnyOtherPointsToMake?
He can't help himself.
Still, it should bring one great joy to imagine his head
practically exploding when voting for McAmnesty.
WTF?|10.16.08 @ 1:07AM|#
An honest question | October 15, 2008, 9:32pm | #
Are any libertarians here going to hold your nose and vote for a
major party POTUS candidate? If so who and why?
In NC, I'm voting Obama for POTUS and mostly LP downticket.
I split my "why" answer into two parts because of the hyperlink
limit.
Part 1, Primary factors: McCain is on the bad side of--and Obama is
on the good side of--torture,
habeas corpus, preventive war,
strong
diplomacy, and a host of related issues that reflect my
libertarian values. I have substantial disagreement with both on
economics. I observe that presidents have less influence on
economics than on foreign policy and civil liberties, particularly
those in this list.
To be continued...
|10.16.08 @ 1:08AM|#
This hypothesis never had significant scientific
support,
Neither did global warming until the funding all lined up behind
it.
Just sayin'...
-jcr
WTF?|10.16.08 @ 1:10AM|#
An honest question | October 15, 2008, 9:32pm | #
Are any libertarians here going to hold your nose and vote for a
major party POTUS candidate? If so who and why?
...Continued: I split my "why Obama" answer in two parts because of
the hyperlink limit.
To summarize Part 1, Primary factors: as Larry Hunter put it,
"Unjustified
war and unconstitutional abridgment of individual rights vs.
ill-conceived tax and economic policies - this is the difference
between venial and mortal sins." (Especially since McCain isn't
great on
economics, either.)
Part 2, secondary factors: My impression is that McCain has
surrendered whatever integrity he may have once had, and I've seen
enough evidence to hope that Obama still has some. Obama
is clearly smarter and
calmer. Finally, executive experience: the campaign
organization each has led for the last two years is the biggest
executive experience either has had, and while Obama ran an
extraordinary campaign--beat the Clinton machine!--McCain ran a
pathetic campaign, even having to recover from bankruptcy.
To misquote the American
Conservative: For conservatives libertarians,
"Obama represents a sliver of hope. McCain represents none at all.
The choice turns out to be an easy one."
|10.16.08 @ 1:11AM|#
I personally find the idea of public schooling to be a
joke.
It is now, but it wasn't always. Around the time that the
Republicans were all calling themselves "progressives", they
latched onto the idea of schools becoming a way to manipulate the
public into being docile (all that "citizenship" crap), and it
basically went into the crapper.
-jcr
|10.16.08 @ 1:14AM|#
Obama represents a sliver of hope.
Yeah, right. He voted for the bailout, and he's also the genius who
came up with the idea of attacking Pakistan. So, he fails on the
economy, and he fails on foreign policy. Fuck him, and the pinkos
he rode in on.
Those clowns in the debate tonight are completely interchangeable.
One of them is a bit better at the smooth delivery, but neither of
them will take the oath of office as anything but a symbolic
formality.
-jcr
|10.16.08 @ 1:20AM|#
@Fluffy | October 15, 2008, 10:01pm | #:
Screw you, Fluffy! Thanks a lot! It's not like some of us wanted to
find out who won Project Runway for ourselves. :(
I even had a legitimate excuse for missing the finale. A spoiler
warning would have been nice.
The People Who Grinned Themsel|10.16.08 @ 1:34AM|#
"...we expect every child to complete (nearly) the same
coursework in the same 12 years, rather than the out-of-vogue
tracking into various fields that is (was?) common in
Europe."
Well, whether or not the U.S. is trailing in any meaningful way is
merely up to who is interpreting the statistics. The bigger picture
is much more complex, and Libertarians, like any other special
interest group will champion the negative, in order to strike
another blow to public education (taxes).
However, clearly the main problem with U.S. education, outside of
the fact that so many parents don't place an emphasis on it, is the
one size fits all strategy that is used in the U.S.
The U.S. focuses on an archaic style of instruction which merely
turns citizens into pre-programmed worker ants. There's little
emphasis on critical thinking, or a greater intellectual
broadening. After all, that kind of education only creates
"Communists."
No Wonder students don't care.
I've heard rumors that they're even going to start requiring four
years of upper level mathematics in school now, in an attempt to
socially engineer scientists. Brilliant.
Of course, this will fail, and cause public schools to fall even
further behind, based on the erroneous idea that tougher standards
mean better education.
The issue of education in America is premised by the same lack of
understanding of human nature inherent in a lot of conservative
thought.
In other words, standardize test them to death, and if they can't
grasp a subject in the same amount of time as other student, then
they're done.
The problem isn't that schools are public institutions, the problem
is the way in which we understand how people learn, and apply those
public funds.
Obviously, some other countries use public funds differently;
therefore, it can be done.
Seanhannity Fromhereuntilelect|10.16.08 @ 1:35AM|#
Joe the plumber! Joe the plumber! Joe the plumber! Joe the Plumber! Ayers! No? You sure? Okay. joe the plumber! Joe the plumber! Joe the plumber!
Joe the plumber|10.16.08 @ 1:42AM|#
I'm not registered to vote.
From politico:
"The Joe file
Two readers with access to the Ohio voter file say that Joe
Wurzelbacher's inluence on this cycle will be limited in one way:
He doesn't appear to be registered to vote.
(And yes, the freelance opposition research on Joe began before the
debate ended.)"
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/
WTF?|10.16.08 @ 1:44AM|#
John C. Randolph | October 16, 2008, 1:14am | #
"Those clowns in the debate tonight are completely
interchangeable." Disagree: Torture.
Habeas corpus.
Preventive war. Big differences in liberty.
bailout: agree.
the pinkos he rode in on: agree. I'd rather see a GOP
congress to counter Obama. Don't see that happening, though.
neither of them will take the oath of office as anything but a
symbolic formality: agree. Yet I still think there are big and
important differences between the two. We must stop bombing,
detaining, and torturing innocent people, and right now, Obama's
the only chance for that.
|10.16.08 @ 1:57AM|#
There was only one class that I ever did really bad in: shop
class. you know why? Because I was bad at it and had no interest in
it.
To hear most politicians talk, however, my poor performance must
have been due to insufficient funding and encouragement. Every
child must be able to make an equally good woodworking project or
else we have all failed!
What in the heck?|10.16.08 @ 2:02AM|#
Sarah Palin and Joe the Plumber:
The new Republican Party
http://palinandplumber2012.com/
|10.16.08 @ 2:14AM|#
Are any libertarians here going to hold your nose and vote
for a major party POTUS candidate? If so who and why?
No.
Because if you vote for either of these raging statists, you ain't
a libertarian.
P.S. Drink!
Hogan|10.16.08 @ 2:16AM|#
There's little emphasis on critical thinking, or a greater
intellectual broadening. After all, that kind of education only
creates "Communists."
Heh.. the 'communists' I've known have always been scary smart
critical thinkers.
|10.16.08 @ 2:17AM|#
After watching this, I'm glad I have an endless supply of confiscated marijuana to smoke.
The People Who Grinned Themsel|10.16.08 @ 2:24AM|#
If they identified themselves as Communists, then they weren't
"scary smart critical thinkers," but it's the consistent equation
of intellect with "Red Under The Bed" that has America ranked as an
intellectual wasteland.
But hey, anything to keep your taxes low, right?
Our founders were intellectuals, and "elites."
Conservative groups, like Libertarians need to stop hiding behind
their weaknesses when it comes to intellectual matters because it
keeps them cemented in the Republican sphere of insular,
anti-intellectual systems of belief.
This forum is a great example. The amount of straw men arguments,
and rampant cherry picking leaves the movement marginalized, and no
one seems to care.
Reading this forum reminds of how Chiropractic wackos rationalize
their belief system. The attitudes are very similar.
Jennifer|10.16.08 @ 2:37AM|#
I'm running Firefox and all I see in the liveblog window is
Latin. The other website I visit that runs liveblogs has had the
same Latin text for at least a month.
What's going on?
|10.16.08 @ 5:13AM|#
Yay, I missed the thread.
Enjoy!
(Sadly, I can take no credit for the creation of that site. But I
wish I could.)
|10.16.08 @ 5:35AM|#
We must stop bombing, detaining, and torturing innocent
people, and right now, Obama's the only chance for that.
That's a mighty slim chance, I'm afraid. Don't forget that he's the
genius who came up with the idea of attacking Pakistan.
Democrats have a real problem with military adventures, as Clinton
demonstrated several times. They're afraid of being seen as "weak
on defense", so they'll happily pop off a missile here or there
just to look tough.
-jcr
|10.16.08 @ 5:54AM|#
OLS, I really like how you flee when people actually try to engage you or confront you- like the cowardly little racist shit I know you are. If you ever grow a pair of balls and want to actually engage in debate beyond posting links to your lame site, H&R will still be here, and it will still be full of people smarter than you.
|10.16.08 @ 7:41AM|#
Barack Obama "came up with the idea of attacking
Pakistan?"
You sure about that?
Because I'm pretty sure he's neither said we should attack
Pakistan, nor did he come up with the idea of attacking al
Qaeda.
|10.16.08 @ 7:43AM|#
Strong arguments don't need to be couched in misleading
language.
We attacked Iraq. We attacked Afghanistan.
Attack Pakistan? Nobody has said we should attack Pakistan.
Elemenope|10.16.08 @ 8:18AM|#
joe --
He *did* suggest military strikes into Pakistan's sovereign
territory in order to destroy terrorists. If you wanna split the
finest hair in the fucking universe and call a bombing on Pakistani
territory "not attacking Pakistan" you go right ahead, but it isn't
particularly convincing.
And judging by the way Pakistani troops have been shooting back at
us when we did try to do just that, I'm gonna go ahead and say
*they* consider it to be an attack.
|10.16.08 @ 9:20AM|#
"He *did* suggest military strikes into Pakistan's sovereign
territory in order to destroy terrorists."
Bill Clinton was pure evil because he didn't take a shot at Bin
Laden when he had the chance. The fate of the world was at stake,
and Bill Clinton was worried about diplomatic niceties. Barak Obama
says we should go in and take the shot at the terrorist and deal
with the diplomacy later. Barak Obama is evil because.......
Which is it?
Elemenope|10.16.08 @ 9:24AM|#
Lamar --
You must be arguing with someone not me, because I've never said
peep here about Clinton.
If you're arguing to the general point, I'd say that territorial
integrity is one of those *really important principles* of
international law. If Iraq had, in 2002, argued that it was likely
the US was going to strike at Iraq and on that basis started
sending partisans to blow up soft targets in the US, do you think
*we* would have taken it well?
Elemenope|10.16.08 @ 9:28AM|#
And for what it's worth, I didn't say we should care all that much about Pakistan's feelings about being attacked, only that we should acknowledge the bare fact that we are attacking it.
|10.16.08 @ 10:07AM|#
Elemonope,
I'd consider it a pretty significant, non-hair-splitting difference
if the police shoot a burglar in my house vs. shooting me. Call me
crazy.
But the point is, "let's attack Pakistan" would, indeed, be
something Barack Obama "first suggested," since nobody else has
proposed attacking Pakistan. Attacking al Qaeda when they're in the
sovereign territory of countries that cannot or will not take care
of them themselves, on the other hand, is not something Barack
Obama first suggested. Don't you remember the missile strike from
the Predator in Yemen? Oh, I'm sorry, I meant "Don't you remember
that time we attacked Yemen?"
the innominate one|10.16.08 @ 10:18AM|#
John C. Randolph | October 16, 2008, 1:08am | #
This hypothesis never had significant scientific support,
Neither did global warming until the funding all lined up behind
it.
Just sayin'...
-jcr
I'm sure that sounded more rational when you heard Rush Limbaugh
say it. There would be just as much money in disingenuously
maintaining a controversy that needed more study, and thus more
funds, rather than coming to a conclusion.
WTF?|10.16.08 @ 10:24AM|#
That's a mighty slim chance, I'm afraid. Don't forget that
he's the genius who came up with the idea of attacking Pakistan.
... Democrats have a real problem with military
adventures...
I generally agree, and I skipped that point the first time 'round
because I think it's complicated. I think what the Bush
administration is doing right now in Pakistan is foolish and wrong.
I think (hope?) Obama's approach is different. I think he'd rely
on, and be more successful with, diplomacy before getting to
military strikes, and even then they'd be more limited--targeted
raids on very specific high-danger criminals such as OBL himself.
As you point out, I'm not on solid footing here.
I could add that I think Clinton started extraordinary rendition
and Obama caved on FISA, so I'm disgusted with Democrats in general
and Obama in particular on foreign policy and civil liberties.
"Better than Republicans!" is damning with faint praise indeed. But
the Bush administration has been so shameful that I'm afraid my
standards have dropped. And I'm convinced that McCain is worse even
than Bush on starting
wars and avoiding
diplomacy--he was the neocon candidate in 2000,
well before 9/11. So I believe the things that shame me most about
my government's behavior--bombing, detaining, and torturing
innocent people--will get worse if McCain becomes POTUS. So yes, I
agree Obama's a mighty slim chance, but he's the only chance I
see.
Elemenope|10.16.08 @ 10:27AM|#
joe --
I'm not at all arguing the distinction. You're missing the
similarity.
1. The police bust into my house to shoot a burglar
2. The police bust into my house to shoot me
The common part of both phrases is:
The police bust into my house to shoot.
That's my point. We can't in good conscience say we aren't blowing
up shit without permission in the sovereign territory of another
country. Just like we couldn't in Yemen, the Sudan, etc. ad
nauseam.
Because we are.
I'm not arguing the point as to whether that's different from
attacking the capital of Pakistan. It obviously is. But it and
related actions nevertheless are well-recognized as casus
belli.
And we sure as shit wouldn't put up with it if it were happening
here. Imagine France or Germany saying to the US: "psst, there's a
terrorist that is residing in your country. I know you can't hit
him because he's popular with your people. Don't worry about it,
we'll blow him up for you!"
|10.16.08 @ 10:41AM|#
Elemenope,
When, exactly, did I argue that attacking al Qaeda in Pakistan is
not an attack in Pakistan?
I didn't. As a matter of fact, I wrote "attacking al Qaeda" is
every comment on the subject.
Nobody is confused here. You really need to explain to me that
attacking al Qaeda in Pakistani territory is attacking al Qaeda in
Pakistani territory. You really don't need to explain to me that
the Pakistanis don't like it when we do that.
What it is not is "attacking Pakistan." It's attacking al
Qaeda.
That is my point - that describing the wholly-uncontroversial
position Obama articulated (If we have actionable intelligence on
high-level al Qaeda in Pakistan and the Pakistanis won't act, we
will) is not the equivalent of advocating an attack on Pakistan.
People who fudge the difference are doing so to misrepresent his
position, by making it appear to be comparable to our attack on
Iraq, or our attack on Afghanistan, or our attack on Panama back in
the day.
Your argument - that attacking al Qaeda in Pakistan has a downside
- is a valid one. If that is your point, go on and make it. Why you
felt the need to defend John C. Randolph's argument that Obama's
position is equivalent to Bush's vis-a-vis Iraq is beyond me.
Elemenope|10.16.08 @ 10:45AM|#
joe | October 16, 2008, 7:43am | #
Attack Pakistan? Nobody has said we should attack
Pakistan.
----------
Elemenope,
When, exactly, did I argue that attacking al Qaeda in Pakistan is
not an attack in Pakistan?
Dude, come on. You're slipping into self-parody.
|10.16.08 @ 10:47AM|#
"In" You see that word "in?" What do you think it's doing
there?
I'm going to eat your kitchen.
I'm going to eat in your kitchen.
C'mon, what's the matter with you this morning?
tarran|10.16.08 @ 11:27AM|#
As I recall, the U.S. air force fired a rocket into a car
driving on a Yemeni highway because they believed Al Queda members
were on board.
Rocketing targets in another country's territory is widely held as
an attack on that country. Shooting at enemy targets in a neutral's
territory is actually a big no no.
|10.16.08 @ 11:41AM|#
Lamar | October 15, 2008, 11:47pm | #
"Gosh, I dunno. Perhaps because those who obtain
MassivePoliticalPower through MassiveImmigration tend to oppose and
work to block such policies."
The presence of a powerful interest group means that individual
freedoms should be restricted?
Very well spoken Lamar.
joe, this is a question you could ask yourself a few times
also.
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