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Now Playing at Reason.tv: Starbucks vs. the Little Guy—Is the corporate coffee behemoth really unstoppable?
Starbucks CEO Howard Schultz recently announced that the company would close 600 of its approximately 12,000 American stores in the coming year, sending 12,000 managers and baristas to the unemployment line.
But as Starbucks contracts, many independent coffee shops are growing, beating the coffee giant in an upscale market it helped to create.
As anti-corporate crusaders are now discovering, instead of advocating for legal prohibitions on chain stores or attempting to zone the offending businesses off of Main Street USA, mom-and-pop shops can successfully combat the coffee behemoth by using old-fashioned market competition.
reason.tv's Michael C. Moynihan and Dan Hayes investigate. Click below to watch.
For more articles and links, and to embed this video on your website, go here.
|8.28.08 @ 3:12PM|#
All you have to do to beat Starbucks is serve a good cup black
coffee in under 10 minutes.
Really how can a coffee company have such crappy black coffee?
|8.28.08 @ 3:21PM|#
Speaking of conspiracies to make Americans drink crappy coffee, did anyone see Mythbusters last night? It's a new one blasting the moon landing hoax buffoons. I thought Hit & Run would mention it, but I guess convention fever has taken over. I don't watch the conventions, don't care about the conventions, and am appalled by the conventions. Moon landings, on the other hand, are groovy.
|8.28.08 @ 3:27PM|#
Pro Libertate,
They probably figured it would rile up the Troofers. Thank goodness
most of that crap has died down around here. Between them and
anti-Ron Paul trolls, I was toying with filtering.
|8.28.08 @ 3:28PM|#
I just wish there were a way to merge the moon "hoax" with The Truth about 9/11™.
|8.28.08 @ 3:29PM|#
Great video. Nothing groundbreaking, but just reiterates the point that you don't need extremism and government intervention to beat down "Big Business", you just need something else the people want. Whoever provides what the people want most efficiently wins. I don't know why it is so hard for some people to get that.
b|8.28.08 @ 3:29PM|#
Tryst, ugh! They are to pretentiousness what Starbucks is to ubiquity. (And what I am to italicization.)
|8.28.08 @ 3:31PM|#
Thank goodness most of that crap has died down around
here
Until the next thread that mentions anything related. Like Arnold,
they'll be back.
|8.28.08 @ 3:32PM|#
How about... the special effects created to fake the moon
landing were used to make it look like a plane hit the Pentagon
instead of a missile.
Of course, the real connecting thread between the two is
moronanity.
|8.28.08 @ 3:33PM|#
Maybe the twin towers weren't destroyed at all, and the
government did it on a Hollywood set. They used it to start a war
with Iraq, to get all their oil, and then will return everyone who
has been hiding in the government bunkers *under* Hollywood to
their families after all is said and done.
/Best combo I could come up with on short notice.
TWC shilling for No Star|8.28.08 @ 3:36PM|#
Hey Mike, that was excellent. Nice touch, swilling the latte up
front.
Really how can a coffee company have such crappy black
coffee?
I am old enough to remember crappy coffee and Starbucks ain't it.
For comparison, drop by Gloria Jeans and suffer through that
stuff.
Once upon a time if you didn't live in San Francisco or Seattle you
were SOL.
I love Gen X, if for no other reason than they gave us good
coffee.
Is Starbucks the best? No, but if it's made correctly it is pretty
tasty.
Disclaimer: I am not a lattee sipper, I hate flavored
coffees.
I like a good strong cup of coffee (Sumatra, Frog Roast, etc) that
I then sissify with cream and sugar. Makes me less of a man, but
it's worth it.
Peet's is pretty good.
|8.28.08 @ 3:37PM|#
How about... the special effects created to fake the moon
landing were used to make it look like a plane hit the Pentagon
instead of a missile.
You think too small. We're in The Matrix, so everything is a
lie.
|8.28.08 @ 3:40PM|#
Robbie,
Whoever provides what the people want most efficiently wins. I
don't know why it is so hard for some people to get
that.
They don't want anyone to win. They want the world to be a Special
Olympics event where everyone gets a first-place blue ribbon no
matter how much effort they put forth.
TWC shilling for No Star|8.28.08 @ 3:41PM|#
the special effects created to fake the moon landing were
used to make it look like a plane hit the Pentagon instead of a
missile
The special effects did a pretty good job of hitting about where my
Ma's husband's office used to be. Thank God when the Pentagon
offered Sonny an early retirement buy out a few months before 09/11
he took it.
Just living right I guess.
Oh, wait! No way! Do you think Sonny was in on it?
Holy Mother of God!
T|8.28.08 @ 3:43PM|#
Is Starbucks the best? No, but if it's made correctly it is
pretty tasty.
By which you mean loaded down with so much crap it barely resembles
coffee? Yeah, that's how they get by with all the crazy espresso
drinks.
Almost anywhere has better plain black coffee than Starbucks. Hell,
the Folger's we use at the office is better.
|8.28.08 @ 3:43PM|#
I love Misha's here in Old Town Alexandria where I work. Their
dark roast makes Starbucks seem like PTA meeting coffee, you can
smoke, and people actually talk to each other. It has, you know,
character.
Starbucks is perfect for the suburbs where I live though. I guess
they just need to find the markets where they work best.
|8.28.08 @ 3:43PM|#
Episiarch,
The Matrix analogy is just a recycle of Plato's cave, and there's
not point having a conversation if you're barking up that tree.
Even worse is the solipsist argument, which, of course, proves that
everything and everyone is just an illusion. But me.
However, there is an extreme skeptic position that falls short of
the solipsist world view. I'd be much more interested in the moon
hoaxer position if they'd adopt this belief: "Moon? What Moon?
Sure, I see that shiny object you call the Moon. That's just an
optical illusion."
|8.28.08 @ 3:45PM|#
Some calorie counter site I was perusing showed that a large Starbucks milkshake (some call it coffee) has about the same number of calories as the dreaded Big Mac.
Dagny T.|8.28.08 @ 3:46PM|#
They want the world to be a Special Olympics event where
everyone gets a first-place blue ribbon no matter how much effort
they put forth.
Like the game of musical chairs where chairs>people.
"Everyone's a winner!"
|8.28.08 @ 3:47PM|#
There is no spoon moon, ProL.
The Matrix provides the evil-intelligence-behind-everything aspect
that conspirazoids love.
|8.28.08 @ 3:48PM|#
Oh, while we are on the topic, does anyone else think that Starbuck's is a far sight better than Caribou Coffee. I'm not a coffee connoisseur by any means, but I think that their coffee is crap.
|8.28.08 @ 3:48PM|#
TWC,
Well, someone had to go into the towers and rig them with thousands
of pounds of explosives in a perfect "controlled demolition"
manner--while absolutely no one noticed--just in case a plane
flying into the building didn't bring it down.
Or were all those explosives placed while the building was burning
and people were evacuating? I'm not up-to-the-minute on the lunatic
fringe. I missed the most recent issue of Psychotic Ravings
Review. I'm pretty sure zombie-JFK stole it out of my
mailbox.
Dagny T.|8.28.08 @ 3:50PM|#
TWC,
Oh, wait! No way! Do you think Sonny was in on it?
Same must be true for my cousin, who had a meeting in one of the
towers that day. The meeting was fortunately
suspiciously cancelled.
We're really just baiting the Truthers now. Fun!
|8.28.08 @ 3:51PM|#
I'm pretty sure zombie-JFK stole it out of my
mailbox.
"They dyed me this color!"
|8.28.08 @ 3:51PM|#
I rather doubt we're in anything like the Matrix. Given gaming and various other shared virtual experiences, I rather think this existence is something we've imposed upon ourselves. I'm playing Pro Libertate in Grand Theft Earth.
|8.28.08 @ 3:54PM|#
I don't like coffee, but Starbucks has some fantastic
high-octane iced tea. Most indie coffeeshops don't even
bother.
Really, though, if you want an explanation of the success of
Starbucks, go into five or six indie coffeeshops. Half the time the
waitstaff are insolent assholes who are either smoking out front or
too busy scratching their infected nose-ring to help you. The only
place in town that sell bulk loose tea acts like it has a five
tattoo minimum.
Dello|8.28.08 @ 3:59PM|#
I'm not old enough to remember, but I've heard about this thing
back in the '60s call "blue jeans". Seems that this was a hippie
thing (stick it to the man, and all that stuff) that corporate
America caught on to and mass marketed. When the hippies figured
that out, they quickly turned away from bkue jeans, but all the
non-hippies were hooked.
A company called "Levi Struass" or something was the world leader
of making blue jeans back then.
These days there are a dozen or more brands of jeans, but Levi's
remain the classic. And still sell well.
All the folks who talk about how Starbucks used to be hip and swank
and have real baristas and how they now go to XYZ to get a "real"
esspresso are just the modern hippies: They move on, but the rest
of the nation (and world, in Starbucks' case) sticks with the
market leader and classic coffee.
TWC shilling for No Star|8.28.08 @ 4:02PM|#
Hell, the Folger's we use at the office is
better.
Dude, you gotta find a new Starbucks. :-)
Although, my first Starbucks was a horrid cup of coffee and I kept
thinking to myself (for years, literally) that I simply could not
understand what all the fuss was about. Then like 8 years later I
tried it again.
I understand that if you're drinking it black that you probably
don't want it as strong as I do. That's why Kona is supposed to be
so good, very mild and mellow. I don't like it because it's too
weak.
Personally, I enjoy making fun of latte sipping soccer mom's and
all that. I hate all that crap, but, stout crawl-down-your-throat
coffee mellowed with cream and sugar, that's just my game.
|8.28.08 @ 4:03PM|#
I can't WTFV, NutraSweet, but if it doesn't have the lawnmower bit from Dead Alive/Braindead, then epic fail.
The Hippies (shilling for No S|8.28.08 @ 4:04PM|#
Coffee is so bourgeoisie!
Whaddya mean McGwinn & McGuire got started in a coffee
house?
|8.28.08 @ 4:06PM|#
I'd respect Starbucks more if it were based on the old
Battlestar Galactica character and used Dirk Benedict in
all of its advertising.
That and if they didn't sell grossly overpriced, crappy coffee and
milkshakes disguised as not-milkshakes.
TWC (Shilling for No Star)|8.28.08 @ 4:06PM|#
Sugar, loved that five tattoo minimum gag.
And the towers.....and Dagny over there baiting on the truthers.
Wait, I'm not Urkobold.
Baiting the truthers. Sorry,
TWC (Shilling for No Star)|8.28.08 @ 4:07PM|#
J Sub, did you get the coffee maker from my grandma?
Actually, perked coffee is pretty good. I've had your coffee
before. Not lately though.
TWC (Shilling for No Star)|8.28.08 @ 4:09PM|#
"They dyed me this color!"
That's pretty got dam funny.
|8.28.08 @ 4:09PM|#
Epi,
They cover The Blob, Zombies, Gremlins, Tribbles, The Monster from
The Horror of Party Beach, Triffids, Giant Slugs, Killers
Tomatoes, and Mars Attacks Martians. AMC, so it's kid-friendly.
|8.28.08 @ 4:10PM|#
I'd respect Starbucks more if it were based on the old
Battlestar Galactica character and used Dirk Benedict in all of its
advertising
That would actually cause me to go there. I wouldn't buy any of
their crap, but I'd go.
and Dagny over there baiting on the truthers
You should have stopped right there.
|8.28.08 @ 4:15PM|#
Given the political proclivities of anti-corporate crusaders, they will discover nothing and there will be no reduction in their efforts to prohibit chain stores from operating.
|8.28.08 @ 4:16PM|#
"They dyed me this color!"
That's pretty got dam funny.
"Look, man, do I look like an icky-ologist to you? Big damn bugs,
all right? The size of my fist. The size of a peanut butter and
banana sandwich."
|8.28.08 @ 4:21PM|#
TWC,
The percolator and Eight O'Clock was what I grew up with. Eight
O'Clock is actually a step up in quality from things like Folgers
and Maxwell House. It's ~5% cheaper as well. Of course being a 21st
century guy, except for camping when the percolator still gets a
workout, I use one of those new fangled drip machines.
|8.28.08 @ 4:34PM|#
Must admit I use a Nespresso machine at home for the
convenience. Not too bad either (better than starbucks,
anyway).
At work I go to one of the local places that use Illy and are
staffed by girls from poor parts of Italy or France. Pretty good
coffee.
Pepe|8.28.08 @ 4:35PM|#
"Disclaimer: I am not a lattee sipper, I hate flavored
coffees."
I don't know what Starbucks puts in their lattes but a true
caffelatte is just coffee and warm milk. It's the Italian
equivalent of cafe au lait (latte means milk in Italian.)
I never go to Starbucks myself. Not because of some silly
anti-chain store mentality but simply because I can make a better
cup of coffee at home. Fresh roasted beans + pure water + french
press = great cup of coffee. And it won't cost 5 bucks.
Rhywun|8.28.08 @ 4:40PM|#
Almost anywhere has better plain black coffee than Starbucks.
Their regular coffee is disgusting; it tastes like burnt charcoal.
I always presumed it was done on purpose to make people spend more
money on the prepared drinks, which are OK if you like that sort of
thing.
|8.28.08 @ 4:40PM|#
Is Starbucks the best? No, but if it's made correctly it is
pretty tasty.
Their milkshakes are great, when that's what you want.
I have never had a cup of Starbuck's black coffee that didn't taste
the same: charred beans, and too many of 'em. Practically nothing
makes my guts churn, but their coffee does.
Lighter roasts, people, are the way to go with good beans.
"American" or "City" roasts let you taste the coffee, instead of
the charcoal coating. However, if your beans are cheap crap, then
you need to disguise the flavor by charring them.
I practically never buy coffee outside the house anymore.
Tonight, now that I think about it, I need to roast up another
batch of Kenya AA. Wait for the first crack, then hit the off
button. Heaven!
RAP|8.28.08 @ 4:45PM|#
In Vancouver (Canada) all the specialty coffee shops have wireless internet access for the laptop crowd. It's free everywhere but Starbucks, go figure.
TWC (Shilling for No Star)|8.28.08 @ 4:49PM|#
I don't know what Starbucks puts in their lattes but a true
caffelatte is just coffee and warm milk.
I'm not against lattes, it was hyperbole to illustrate.
Today has been instructive. I've learned that I don't know what
good coffee tastes like. :-)
Therefore, I'm putting in an order for RC's Kenya AA and I'm
breaking out the French Press from under the counter.
BTW, is there any good way to clean the Frog Press once you've
finished? I don't seem to be very good at it and always end up with
a mess.
TWC (Shilling for No Star)|8.28.08 @ 4:51PM|#
RAP, at our local Starbucks, the wireless is free. I
think.
Stayed at a nice hotel in Phoenix recently and the wireless in the
room was like fifteen bucks a day. But if you walked out to the
lobby it was free.
No Name Guy|8.28.08 @ 4:53PM|#
Best thing that can happen to a WELL RUN independent shop is for
a Starbucks to open up near by.
Once folks taste the (only) fair coffee that the Starbucks
superautomatic (does everything but steam the milk) espresso
machines make, they'll really appreciate the excellent espresso
that a real (manual, semiauto or automatic) espresso machine can
produce IF you have a well trained, competent barista working
it.
Since I took a class on how to make proper espresso based
beverages, I can't help but critique every barista I watch, be it
in a Starbucks, other chain or independent. Too many steam the milk
wrong and all too often (at shops that use non-superautomatics)
tamp the coffee puck wrong. The thing is, it's not too difficult to
do the correct way.
Poor technique results in lower quality beverages - the milk is too
foamy or not well blended yielding inferior texture of the final
beverage, or you get a poor extraction on the coffee / espresso
shots, resulting in a weak or bitter flavor profile.
TWC (Shilling for No Star)|8.28.08 @ 4:53PM|#
Maybe this is it:
I rarely buy a ready made cup of Starbucks. But I buy the beans and
we make the coffee at home to my own tastes. And, come to think of
it, I do like my own coffee (made with Starbucks beans) better than
theirs.
We sometimes use different beans but primarily Starbucks.
|8.28.08 @ 4:58PM|#
This is a slightly aggravating subject for me because I've been
out of the US for about a year now and for 11 months of that year
I've been in Rome, Odessa and Cherkasy - all of which are cities
where I've managed to find outstanding cappuccino.
Truth be told, it was a little tough to find in Rome on Sunday near
the train station and in Ukraine it's been impossible to find
before 9:00am, but those are limitations I can deal with.
I've really been looking forward to getting back to the US, but
I've been dreading the coffee.
Regarding Starbucks vs. Caribou - I lived in the Twin Cities for 14
years and given the choice I would always go with Caribou. It's not
that they were good, but they weren't as consistently bad. When I
went to the same store daily for a month or longer, I could get the
better baristi trained. As Caribou grew they got more and more like
Starbucks, though, and now I don't know that I could tell the
difference. Last time I checked Caribou's smallest latte had 2
shots of espresso and Starbuck's had only one. You have to pay
extra for the second.
Really, all a good cappuccino takes is decent coffee, roasted
correctly and whole milk at the correct temperature. That's it. You
wouldn't think it would be some kind of rocket science, but
American coffee shops just don't get it. Grrr.
That said, does anybody have a lead on good coffee in downtown San
Diego?
|8.28.08 @ 5:04PM|#
Coffee is for pussies. I drink koumis, flavored with the
blood of my enemies.
Did Kirk drink coffee? No? Coffee is for pussies.
|8.28.08 @ 5:10PM|#
"Some calorie counter site I was perusing showed that a large
Starbucks milkshake (some call it coffee) has about the same number
of calories as the dreaded Big Mac."
I am convinced that the milkshakes are one of the things that is
killing Starbucks. One of the things that got Starbucks going was
that it was one of the few places you could go and sit in a comfy
chair and just talk or read. When they started serving milkshakes,
their atmosphere was ruined by the sound of blenders running all
the time. It made the places intollerable.
|8.28.08 @ 5:20PM|#
"What would Kirk do?" is the question that guides me through
life.
Don't forget "What would Ash do?"
(I have a "WWAD" t-shirt. Yes, I rule.)
Eric Haskell|8.28.08 @ 5:20PM|#
I have a feeling this won't be a popular statement, but IMO the best coffee is Dunkin' Donuts' coffee.
|8.28.08 @ 5:30PM|#
Eric,
I hear that more and more from coffee drinkers.
Episiarch,
Yes, yes, Bruce Campbell is a great role model in most of his
roles, but come, let us be serious. Kirk is the role model of role
models. Only David Lo Pan can possibly compete.
|8.28.08 @ 5:33PM|#
Eric-
You can't always trust your feelings-I love my morning large
regular and my mid afternoon medium regular Dunkin' Donuts
coffees.
I do not abhor Starbucks by any means. If I amn out west or in the
Carolinas, Tennessee. Georgia, etc., I will have Starbucks-but I
will not go out of my way to go to a Starbucks as I would for a
Dunkys. Perhaps you would do the same.
|8.28.08 @ 5:35PM|#
When in Tennessee, I go to my local Jack Daniels. Coffee, with a twist o' whiskey.
Rhywun|8.28.08 @ 5:36PM|#
I have a feeling this won't be a popular statement
I was going to mention that Dunkin Donuts is the only coffee worse
than Starbucks but I didn't want to veer too far off topic. Even
the sickly sweet donut smell of that stuff makes me cringe.
|8.28.08 @ 5:41PM|#
Krispy Kreme will conquer the beverage world with its glazed doughnut drink. Get this: Coffee is a mere optional additive to this king of all things fluidy.
|8.28.08 @ 5:43PM|#
I just wish there were a way to merge the moon "hoax" with The Truth about 9/11™.
All you have to do is ask a Troofer, and he'll tell you with a
straight face what the connection is: Evidence that that moonshot
was faked was stored in WTC1. WTC2 was hit to cover up WTC1, and
WTC7 was "pulled" just so Giuliani could get in on the action
too.
p.s. I don't like Starbucks, which is why I don't drink their
coffee. It's a radical concept, too extreme for most liberals, but
if you don't like a corporation, don't buy their products!
|8.28.08 @ 5:53PM|#
Cannot. . .resist. . .corporate. . .jingles! Must consume Big Mac with supersized everything! Help me say no!
|8.28.08 @ 6:24PM|#
Walter Cronkite said they were on the moon. Neil Armstrong said
he walked on the moon. Other Nasanots claimed they were on the
moon. Millions of americans had their wages confiscated, in part,
to put a man on the moon. Ergo, Apollo 11 et seq. were not
hoaxes.
Epi, Sugar Free, Pro Liberate et al, you must admit, however, that
you do not have any percipient knowledge of the moon landings. You
weren't there. Listen, a little radical doubt is a good thing-it
can only help. You tend not to fall for the big lies like Lincoln
freed the slaves or that the 16th amendment was duly and
constitutionally ratified or that Israel is a beacon of individual
freedom, prosperity and tolerance for all faiths or americans enjoy
more personal freedom than any other people in the hisotry of the
galaxy or that the american soldier and military are invincible or
that government is a prerequisite to civilization.
Dello|8.28.08 @ 6:26PM|#
John,
"I am convinced that the milkshakes are one of the things that is
killing Starbucks."
Frappicinos(sp?) make up 50% of Starbucks' sales.
|8.28.08 @ 6:29PM|#
Extreme skepticism leads to a solipsist worldview. I'm willing
to accept that events have occurred with a reasonable amount of
evidence. There is a compelling amount of proof that we've been to
the Moon, and the arguments that we haven't are very weak to
outright stupid; therefore, I accept that we went to the Moon.
QED.
I tend to be skeptical about many things, though, but really nutty
claims require really nutty amounts of evidence.
Besides, my dad worked on the Apollo program. Which makes me one of
Them, I suppose.
The Wine Commonsewer|8.28.08 @ 6:33PM|#
Walter Cronkite said they were on the moon
At the time of the moon landing the TV reporters did a lot of
Man In The Street clips. Saw one where they asked a rural
Georgia woman what she thought about the moon landing. She
said:
I don't believe none of it. My TV don't even get Atlanta, how I
gonna get the moon?
Or it could just an urban legend and I have CRS.
No Name Guy|8.28.08 @ 6:40PM|#
Shawn
You like it wet or dry on the cap?
Not too many folks in the States actually have cappuccino. Kind of
advanced...you actually taste the espresso.
Mochas and flavored lattes are the 'gateway' beverages into the
espresso based drink world. They're 'safe'.......
One of the things hammered home during my class about independs vs.
Starbucks and other very large chains: They all have to have a
consistent product from store to store. A big mac is a big mac is a
big mac. Bud, no matter how piss water the stuff is, is at least
consistent piss water. Ditto that with Starbucks coffee. The
trouble is, to get the volume of consistent product they need, they
have to roast the hell out of it, so you get a pretty bitter
product.
The independent (shop or small chain), only needing a few dozen to
a few hundred pounds of coffee a week, can get consistency, but
with nuanced flavor that the big boys simply can't do.
The Wine Commonsewer|8.28.08 @ 6:43PM|#
Pro, A good friend's dad also worked on the Apollo program (Don
Weber).
He has a two dollar bill signed by Virgil Grissom, Edward White,
and Roger Chaffee, who were killed in that tragic fire in the late
1960's.
Don't know it has value, but it sure is cool.
I've been to Atlanta. It exists.
Zingggg!
One of my favorite bloggers wrote about HotLanta (where even the
bums call you Ma'am)
here .
|8.28.08 @ 6:44PM|#
Kirk is the role model of role models. Only David Lo Pan can
possibly compete.
Lo Pan? Which Lo Pan? The little old basket case on wheels or the
ten foot tall roadblock?
|8.28.08 @ 6:47PM|#
Episiarch,
Tall guy, weird clothes. First you see him, then you don't.
I love that movie. I even bought a Jack Burton tank top for working
out in. And when I'm shaking the pillars of heaven.
|8.28.08 @ 6:50PM|#
TWC,
My dad was with a subcontractor for Apollo (Boeing). He programed
simulations of the sloshing of fuel in the Sat. V and for the
operation of the suspension system for the moon buggy. He still
says that was the highpoint of his career, even though he had a
good career doing other things (he's retired now).
|8.28.08 @ 7:18PM|#
What would Ash do?
Ash would kill the entire crew to get an Alien back to corporate
headquarters, that's what he (it) would do.
Emulating this behavior is going to... make life difficult for
you.
Dello|8.28.08 @ 7:30PM|#
What would Ash do?
He'd autograph books at Starbucks corporate headquarters again,
like he did a few years ago.
|8.28.08 @ 7:50PM|#
Pro Liberate-6:29
I can't quibble with your reasoning-I basically agree. However, I
just don't get the conflation of the moon hoaxers with the 9/11
truth people. I have expressed this thought before here and folks
say that they are one in the same, etc. Honest to God, I have been
exposed to more about the moon hoaxers on Reason threads than I had
ever read, watched or had the pleasure of having some person trying
to talk it up with me.
BakedPenguin|8.28.08 @ 9:23PM|#
Trying to get an iced expresso drink in London without Starbucks was a disaster. Cafe Nero and Costa's couldn't make an Iced Americano worth the effort of urinating it out.
|8.28.08 @ 9:31PM|#
Kolohe,
Whoa, treble trouble! I think we should mate the Starbucks and see
what happens.
Nash|8.28.08 @ 9:44PM|#
I prefer Coffee Bean to Starbucks but generally prefer Starbucks
to most independent coffee shops since I'm only interested in Iced
Coffee to go, not espresso in a pretty mug or "atmosphere".
I used to live in an area that discouraged corporate business
chains from moving in. The day Starbucks finally arrived there were
literally protests in the street about it (this is what people did
before we invaded Iraq I guess).
I asked a local independent coffee shop owner about how he was
going to manage with a Starbucks down the street and he frankly
didn't care. "I cater to a different crowd" was his reply. He
didn't think they were going to cannibalize his business since his
shop was about sitting around and drinking coffee where Starbucks
was for people on the way to work.
I prefer Starbucks to not Starbucks and spend entirely to much
money every week on coffee that I could make at home for cheap. Why
is this?
|8.28.08 @ 10:32PM|#
Starbucks is closing a bunch of its outlets here in Australia,
because locals chose to stay with the little guys. People in
Melbourne and Sydney know their coffee and don't want a cookie
cutter experience. Starbucks didn't adequately cater for the local
market and failed. What a shocker.
In a funny kind of way, it gladdens my heart as it proves that
markets really do work sometimes. An article about it appeared in
an Aussie free market publication from the Institute of Public
Affairs:
http://www.ipa.org.au/news/1652/memo-starbucks-next-time-try-selling-ice-to-eskimos-
|8.29.08 @ 1:46AM|#
Shawn
You like it wet or dry on the cap?
Sorry, No Name Guy, I went to bed before I saw your question. Also,
I don't know what that means. I like it like the way the Italians
make it, although ideally with better coffee than they use and a
correspondingly lighter roast.
|8.29.08 @ 3:50AM|#
Starbucks tried to sustain 5%+ growth to keep Wall Street, even though its a mature company nearing market saturation. They overstretched and opened too many stores.
Sarah|8.29.08 @ 9:17AM|#
How do I politely say "boo-hoo"? I work in Manhattan, 8am 5 days
a week and I go to Starbucks almost every morning. There is a
Dunkin Donuts on every corner here and they are MORE expensive than
Starbucks for crappier service and worse coffee.
Point is, starbucks has variety. If you don't like "milkshakes"
then don't go there. Get over yourselves, all of you. No one forces
you to go there, so just go somewhere else and stop expecting the
rest of the US to agree with your tastebuds.
The reason Starbucks is in business is because people like the
drinks and food they get for the price. The service (in my
experience) has always been better and faster than any other chain
coffee shop and the taste is consistent. While Dunkin has better
black coffee, the people there cannot count change to save their
lives and are horribly slow and unorganized. If I chance to add
anything to my coffee, the taste is inconsistent because their
"measuring" consists of eyeballing. Very unprofessional and not
worth the cost, imo.
Lastly, people like me go there for breakfast, not just coffeee.
Starbucks still has the cheapest bagels in Manhattan and they
always taste the same because they aren't smashed against other
bagels and donuts transferring flavors. The last thing I need at
8am is a walk back out of the office to get my breakfast corrected.
Starbucks does it the way I want, correctly, every time. They have
yet to mess up an order and it is this well trained staff which
keeps my business.
Steve Lieber|8.29.08 @ 2:23PM|#
If mediocre coffee isn't enough of a reason to dislike
Starbucks, there is the matter of the cartoonist they slapped down
with a lawsuit for parodying them:
http://www.cbldf.org/pr/001130-starbucks.shtml
|8.29.08 @ 2:51PM|#
I can't figure out how starbucks stays in business. I never buy their coffee (cuz I have "free" Starbucks machines at work), but every time I go thru the drive-thru with the wifegirlfriend I notice they keep a small bucket at the window that is pretty well-stocked with money. I only take from the bucket when I'm short a couple bucks, but surely they can't be paying everyone to use their product and still remain solvent.
|8.29.08 @ 2:52PM|#
The coffee shop that starts carrying Kopi Luwak is the one that
will win my business due to their sheer dedication to coffee.
Shameless local plug: get some Kaldi's if you can. Good stuff. They
hand roast and their place is right on the highway, providing a 60
mph aromatic foreshadowing of the coffee to come at the office.
Honestly, it's the only good thing about the interstate.
Jason|8.29.08 @ 3:39PM|#
Starbucks does have absolutely terrible black coffee.
But I will take and iced, vente, three-pump cinnamon dolce, breve
Starbucks Doubleshot on ice, please.
(I realize the ice part is in there twice, but that's the way they
told me to say it.)
No Name Guy|8.29.08 @ 3:42PM|#
Shawn
The way I was taught to make cap:
Wet Cap: 1 (or 2) shot(s) espresso, equal volume steamed milk,
equal volume dry foamed milk on that. Layered.
Dry Cap: 1 (or 2) shots(2) espresso, equal volume dry foamed milk
on that. Again, layered.
I've also heard that some folks like something in between - the
shots of espresso with an equal volume of wet foamed milk - more
foamy than just steamed milk, but not the light, dry foam you spoon
from the very top of the steaming pitcher if you're really trying
to foam it up. Perhaps this is the true Italian way....Any Italians
care to comment?
|8.29.08 @ 3:42PM|#
Well, Sarah, you are a New Yorker with a bit of
refinement.
Starbucks will never have fans from the right side of the political
spectrum. Too much Joni Mitchell like music, they're from Seattle,
they pay health benefits and are led by a liberal capitalist,
etc.
Now there are Left and Right LPers for sure, but the right leaning
ones will bash Starbucks and defend Wal-Mart and Creationism in one
single yell.
|8.29.08 @ 3:59PM|#
I dont know about the next guy but I stopped buying $5 coffees
months ago!
Whistler
http://www.datools.echoz.com
ed|8.29.08 @ 4:45PM|#
106 comments on a friggin' coffee thread.
Folks, it's just coffee. And it isn't going anywhere. Relax and
smell your precious foam.
Richard |8.29.08 @ 5:51PM|#
Anther problem with government zoning out Starbucks is it sends a message to local stores one does not have to compete; I had been to many poor local shops. Coffee People in Portland, was good but hours were to short and they made a very poor business decision in trying to compete at the level of Starbucks and another shop I felt employed false advertising by touting freshly roasted coffee but cannot tell me where. The there was the sop we once had out local furmeet in, they made it clear we lounging in their store was not welcomed and food offerings was below sub par. These days I prefer Peets.
jim|8.30.08 @ 12:11AM|#
I have said it once and I will say it again: calling a person who makes coffee a barista is about as retarded as calling a janitor a custodial engineer.
B|8.30.08 @ 12:13AM|#
"Starbucks will never have fans from the right side of the
political spectrum. Too much Joni Mitchell like music, they're from
Seattle, they pay health benefits and are led by a liberal
capitalist, etc.
Now there are Left and Right LPers for sure, but the right leaning
ones will bash Starbucks and defend Wal-Mart and Creationism in one
single yell.?
It is amazing how you were able to be an arrogant elitist and a
total idiot in the same quote.
|8.30.08 @ 2:42AM|#
No Name Guy | August 29, 2008, 3:42pm | #
Thanks for the information. That explains a bit about the way
American coffee shops make cappuccini.
I'm not Italian and I haven't been trained as a barista, but I've
spent about 5 months of my life in Italy drinking cappuccino daily.
Also, I took an Italian language class where the teacher defined
some of the standard Italian coffee terminology. So, I'll take a
shot at answering your question.
From my notes: cappuccino = coffee (espresso) and milk with
schiuma. In my
experience the schiuma is a very wet foam that sits in a thin layer
on top, but sort of blends into the lower layer, which is a mix of
espresso and steamed milk. The whole thing has more viscosity than
you typically see in a latte or cappuccino in the US.
Unless you are on the train, it is always served in a ceramic cup,
which significantly lowers the temperature of the drink compared to
a paper cup. Also, it feels like it has slower heat transfer in my
mouth, possibly due to having higher fat or air content instead of
water. In America I have to get a latte at about 130 degrees F to
get the same temperature feeling.
|8.30.08 @ 2:52AM|#
I have said it once and I will say it again: calling a person who makes coffee a barista is about as retarded as calling a janitor a custodial engineer.
Um, do you realize that English is pretty much entirely words
borrowed from other languages? Since barista is a nice, short,
easy-to-pronounce Italian word for "person who makes coffee" (more
or less) and we don't have an existing word for that, what's the
problem with borrowing it?
|8.31.08 @ 3:03AM|#
Hi folks:) As a minority of one, I prefer Starbucks' coffee to
that of Denny's and most other chain restaurants. So far I haven't
found the perfect coffee, nonacidic with a deep nutty taste. But I
will never cease looking:)
About Starbucks' closings: if *they* created the perfect coffee,
I'd probably save my dimes and quarters, and go there a few times a
week without fail.
Perhaps folks look to the small coffeehouses as I used to look at
self-improvement books, that is, as if Christ were to enter through
the front of a New Great Book and into my heart. It never happened,
yet though I have given up on the book, I still look to the small
coffeehouse as if it were a Holy Grail.
best wishes all,
Mike mikerael4@yahoo.com
Brad Ackerman|9.1.08 @ 7:28AM|#
Since nobody's said it yet...
That's no moon!
(My coat? It's the high-viz with an OpenBSD logo on the back.)
Teak Furniture|9.11.08 @ 3:45AM|#
Dunkin has better black coffee, but starbucks has a well trained staff.
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