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How's that "Citizen Journalism" Thing Working Out?
Lynn Sweet, one of the toughest reporters of the Obama campaign, writes on how it handled her requests for details on the "whitey tape" rumor.
When I phoned the Obama press shop a few times in recent weeks to check out rumors about whether there was a videotape with Michelle Obama using the word "whitey," the campaign declined to issue a denial or to pass along the question to Michelle's staff to find out what might be fueling the rumors... Talking a week ago, Obama gave a frosty answer to McClatchy Newspapers reporter Margaret Talev, who asked about rumors concerning his wife.
"There is dirt and lies that are circulated in e-mail," he said. "And they pump them out long enough until finally you, a mainstream reporter, asks me about them. And then that gives legs to the story."
"He was visibly angry at being asked to dignify the rumor by denying it -- and so was his staff," said Talev, writing in her blog.
Note that Obama never simply said it was not true; he was concerned, as he said, that if he did, he would create a story. But the exchange got Obama to thinking it was time to shift tactics.
...
If you hear that Michelle Obama gave a 'whitey' rant from, of all places, the Trinity United Church of Christ -- the church the Obamas quit recently following controversies with the Rev. Jeremiah Wright and the Rev. Michael Pfleger -- don't believe it."No such tape exists. Michelle Obama has not spoken from the pulpit at Trinity and has not used that word," the campaign said on the site.
So reports the woman who called Obama "disingenuous," to his face, for the handling of Austan Goolsbee's talks with Canada about NAFTA. What say the bloggers who fell for the rumor? Let's try A.J. Stratra.
A Time story... proved Obama’s campaign knew about the video rumor before it showed up on Hillary supporter Larry Johnson’s site. Not a good turn of events, because it supported some of the claims being made by Johnson and others that the Obama campaign knew about the video (as opposed to knew about the rumor of a video).
Wait... what did the Time story say?
When the Obama campaign got wind of the rumor in April, Michelle's close friend and adviser Valerie Jarrett asked Michelle if there could be anything to it; the candidate's wife dismissed it out of hand. But by mid-May, it was picking up steam on the Internet, and Michelle's advisers decided it was time to have a serious talk with her about it. On a campaign swing through Oregon, Michelle's chief of staff Melissa Winter grilled her on the particulars of the various versions. Had she ever spoken at Trinity Church? Could she ever recall having uttering that racial epithet? No, no, Michelle answered again and again.
The campaign knew about the rumor before Johnson did, then—several people in Democratic circles did, because that's where the rumor apparently started, as a way of keeping superdelegates from endorsing Obama. But that's all they got word of: the rumor. They didn't "know about the video" because the video doesn't exist, as evidenced by the multiple versions of the "transcript" and alleged locations that floated around the web, none of which had any corroborating evidence. More Strata:
In addition, the Obama site confirmed Michelle Obama’s presence on at a roundtable and plenary at the event - meaning they confirmed another part of the rumor, thus giving it more credibility to all of it.
No, they confirmed the fact that fed the umpteenth version of the rumor, after NoQuarter found a photo of Michelle Obama at a 2004 Rainbow/PUSH event with Louis Farrakhan's wife. Mysteriously, right after that photo circulated, the rumor changed, and instead of Obama "speaking at Trinity" with Louis Farrakhan in frame and references to Hurricane Katrina, it became Obama at this event ranting about Bill Clinton. (The irony is that if this photo wasn't found in service of the sexier rumor, it might have become a story on its own.)
I bring this up because I find Strata's tone, a stand-in for the tone of a lot of blogs that believed this garbage, dim and farcical. This whole episode has been a hammer blow to the idea of "citizen journalism," as bloggers with agendas and no idea of how to do reporting or corroboration spread a rumor using the tropes of reporting. I bring it up, too, because I think we've reached a tipping point where the sympathy for Obama over this stuff is outstripping the damage from the rumors. Chiefly, that's because the rest of the media (who don't enjoy wasting time chasing b.s. rumors) have got Obama's back on this, covering him in a friendly way they haven't managed since his February run of primary wins.
This was always a danger with the Obama rumor industry. A large part of McCain's legend, and his support in the media, was the belief that the 2000 nomination was robbed from him with lies and dirty tricks. As late as 2005, I read a Vanity Fair piece exorcising the ghosts of that campaign, the publisher's ink mixed with tears for what Americans had lost. This year, how much momentum did McCain get from the New York Times story about his friendly (hint, hint) relations with lobbyists? A lot of momentum, because of that narrative that Hero John McCain was ever beset with such smears. At this point, every dumb rumor about Obama is feeding the narrative that he, too, is being dragged down by liars. What happens what there's a factual story about him or Michelle doing wrong? It'll get swallowed in the narrative.
|6.13.08 @ 12:10PM|#
Oh for the love of...
STOP IT!
Just stop it already. I don't give a rats ass about Obama rumor
mongering.
|6.13.08 @ 12:15PM|#
Dave,
Stop it. If you keep explaining how the slime machine works, people
are going to be able to recognize its operations when they see
them, and the next round of rumors won't be credible at all.
We can't have that.
|6.13.08 @ 12:18PM|#
I bring it up, too, because I think we've reached a tipping
point where the sympathy for Obama over this stuff is outstripping
the damage from the rumors.
It was only 1992 or 1993 when I told my college roomies, "Someday,
there's going to be a real Bill Clinton scandal, and nobody is
going to care, because of all of the b.s. rumors."
Same thing here. The public should have a nice, thick callous built
up regarding Barack Obama rumors by the Fall.
|6.13.08 @ 12:21PM|#
I was getting worried that I wouldn't get my daily dose of Dave
"Whitey" Weigel.
Now, of course, we've sunk to the level of "we're not talking about
the rumor, we're talking about the coverage of the rumor."
Color me bored.
Episiarch|6.13.08 @ 12:22PM|#
OK, that's great, Dave. Thanks.
Now, tonight we get to find out who the last cylon is, right? Or is
SciFi just jerking our chains?
|6.13.08 @ 12:22PM|#
This whole episode has been a hammer blow to the idea of
"citizen journalism," as bloggers with agendas and no idea of how
to do reporting or corroboration spread a rumor using the tropes of
reporting.
Eh? I would think that nonsense was stomped on after Malkin did a
drive-by of some kid's house.
Elemenope|6.13.08 @ 12:23PM|#
What happens what there's a factual story about him or
Michelle doing wrong? It'll get swallowed in the
narrative.
Thank. Fucking. God.
When we stop looking for saints, we might find a decent president
or two. (This goes for McCain, Paul, and Barr as well, none of whom
could even charitably be called saints.)
What was the one about the boy and the wolf?
Elemenope|6.13.08 @ 12:24PM|#
Now, tonight we get to find out who the last cylon is,
right? Or is SciFi just jerking our chains?
I hope for revelation, but must cynically vote for last minute
chain jerk.
Episiarch|6.13.08 @ 12:30PM|#
You know, I just realized that after BSG ends, SciFi has no other out-of-the-park shows. They don't even have some ho-hum shit right now. And since their success rate for new shows is quite dismal (Flash Gordon? Well done, jerks), I am going to have to resign myself to having one less quality show. At least Sarah Connor Chronicles is coming back.
Elemenope|6.13.08 @ 12:35PM|#
At least Sarah Connor Chronicles is coming back.
True. I must admit my continuing ambivalence towards that show
though...the tone seems oddly uneven, and many of their hackneyed
solutions would easily be shortcut by a judicious application of
River Tam-bot force, but I do enjoy the occasionally brilliant
writing and interesting musings.
Guy Montag|6.13.08 @ 12:36PM|#
Dave Weigel,
What is up with your ex-wife not wanting to vaccinate the children?
Is she an Imus fan or something?
|6.13.08 @ 12:37PM|#
Flash Gordon? Well done, jerks
The 1980 film with the cheesy Queen soundtrack was the high-watermark of the franchise.
Episiarch|6.13.08 @ 12:38PM|#
All of this rumor-mongering brings to mind an exchange from
Strangers With Candy:
Jeri: Drake, why did you spread those vicious lies?
Drake: Because you didn't spread those vicious thighs.
Guy Montag|6.13.08 @ 12:38PM|#
BTW, I do enjoy these stories of silly media rumors. When I don't like a story there is this cool scroll-wheel thingie on my mouse that I use to scroll past them.
Episiarch|6.13.08 @ 12:40PM|#
Oh, and don't forget, they may yet manage to not fuck up
Caprica.
Spinoff = fail 95% of the time. Who is the genius who thought Enos
from The Dukes of Hazzard could have his own show?
|6.13.08 @ 12:46PM|#
Speaking of new shows, I wonder if they'll come out with a new Get Smart with Steve Carrell if the movie does well enough. I loved that show.
Episiarch|6.13.08 @ 12:48PM|#
The 1980 film with the cheesy Queen soundtrack was the
high-watermark of the franchise.
Actually, the comics themselves (the old ones) are fucking great.
The stories are cool and the drawing is fantastic.
|6.13.08 @ 12:48PM|#
While no one might have it on tape something tells me the word
Whitey has indeed rolled off her blackie lips. I would wager that
most of the congregation of that church uses the word
regularly.
Of course I am only going by the shouts of joy and clapping in
agreement after the last pastor forced blackies hand in leaving the
church because it was costing to many votes from the whities. You
can't win the office without a whole lot of whitey on your
side.
How many of you would not deny a rumor flat out if you knew with
all certainty that it never happened? I think most people would say
it was BS plain and simple not skirt the issue for so long.
|6.13.08 @ 12:48PM|#
I heard a rumor that Michelle Obama is hot.
"Don't you wish your girlfriend was hot like me" meets "She is
touring the facility and taking up slack" hot.
Anyone else hear that one?
|6.13.08 @ 12:50PM|#
Of course I am only going by the shouts of joy and clapping in agreement after the last pastor forced blackies hand in leaving the church because it was costing to many votes from the whities.
DOES NOT PARSE
TallDave|6.13.08 @ 12:53PM|#
The MSM does so much better. Remember all those well-sourced
stories about cannibalism and bodies stacked like cordwood at the
Superdome? And don't get me started on Don Rather.
So a few bloggers made themselves look dumb. Big deal. Most
bloggers never found the rumor credible at all. They're not doing
much worse than the "real" journalists, who get things wrong all
the time too.
Elemenope|6.13.08 @ 12:54PM|#
Spinoff = fail 95% of the time.
Oh, I dunno. The Star Trek franchise kept spinnin' and spinnin',
and to me the only failure of the bunch was Voyager (yes,
I know, you Enterprise haters...well, fuck off). While I'm
not a Whedon fan, minus of course Firefly, but most
Buffy fans speak highly of Angel.
Fraiser wasn't a *terrible* spinoff of Cheers.
The Law & Order spinoffs are likewise not *full* of
fail, and are occasionally as good as the original.
Christianity and Islam are not by any stretch
failed spinoffs of Judaism.
Miggs|6.13.08 @ 12:55PM|#
SciFi should consider doing a series based on "The Hidden", although I'm sure they'd butcher it.
TallDave|6.13.08 @ 12:58PM|#
So is BSG worth buying on DVD? It is unreservedly full of
win.
Agreed. I first heard the rumors it was good, which seemed
impossible, in Season Two, so after catching a couple episodes I
ordered the DVD of Season One. Good stuff.
BTW, if you buy Season One you should get the mini-series included
with it too now.
Episiarch|6.13.08 @ 1:01PM|#
SciFi should consider doing a series based on "The Hidden",
although I'm sure they'd butcher it.
That is a very good idea.
The Star Trek franchise kept spinnin' and spinnin', and to me
the only failure of the bunch was Voyager (yes, I know, you
Enterprise haters...well, fuck off)
I am a TOS fan, and watched all TNG and like it, though it does not
compare to TOS. However, I hated DS9, disliked VGR, and I guess I
am an ENT hater because I fucking hated it. And I really, really,
really hate the Ferengi (I may have mentioned this before). I also
detest the warrior-culture worship that began in TNG with the
Klingons.
|6.13.08 @ 1:02PM|#
The ridiculous rumors about scary black people during Katrina
were found both in the mainstream media and in the blogs.
It's easy to think of examples of the real media not picking up
foolish stories from teh tubez, but it's tough to think of a single
false rumor that was reported in the professionl media that wasn't
also reported on political blogs.
thoreau|6.13.08 @ 1:08PM|#
I asked Obama's campaign if he was a pig-fucker and they
declined to say "I am not a pig-fucker."
What does he have to hide?
Elemenope|6.13.08 @ 1:09PM|#
I am a TOS fan, and watched all TNG and like it, though it
does not compare to TOS. However, I hated DS9, disliked VGR, and I
guess I am an ENT hater because I fucking hated it. And I really,
really, really hate the Ferengi (I may have mentioned this before).
I also detest the warrior-culture worship that began in TNG with
the Klingons.
Fair enough. I also fucking hated the Ferengi (but liked Quark, so
figure that one out); DS9 took a good season-and-a-half to get
good, but when it did, it *really* did. Good point about the
warrior-worship, though later episodes of DS9 really shat all over
the warrior ethic to good effect.
As far as Enterprise, I must say it was uneven, and I can
see why someone would hate it. For my own part, I fell in love
after seeing the following trope crop up in dialog (through several
minor variations) throughout the 1st season:
"You're kinda ugly. What planet are you from?"
"Earth."
"Huh. Never heard of it."
Yeah, that's right, human bitches. You ain't nothin' yet.
The season with the Xindi shit sucked balls, but the last season
(Vulcan Civil War, formation of the Federation) were, no word of a
lie, fucking awesome. And Peter Weller even shows up at the end, so
it can't be all bad.
Elemenope|6.13.08 @ 1:11PM|#
And, the Andorian captain was by far the best recurring
character since Q.
joe --
The server squirrels frown heavily upon name changes. Found that
out to my chagrin a few weeks ago.
TallDave|6.13.08 @ 1:16PM|#
The Star Trek franchise kept spinnin' and spinnin', and to
me the only failure of the bunch was Voyager
I don't know, there were a few good STTNG, but in retrospect most
are unwatchable, and the finale was an awful bunch of
self-indulgent crap. That whole series was way too mushy. DS9 was
better. I agree Voyager was a waste. Never tried Enterprise.
I also fucking hated the Ferengi
Yeah, they were pretty clearly supposed to be the "evil
capitalists." The whole Star Trek motif, esp STTNG, had a creepy
"Communism is the future" vibe.
Episiarch|6.13.08 @ 1:18PM|#
And, the Andorian captain was by far the best recurring
character since Q.
Wasn't he played by Jeffrey Combs, B-movie legend and veteran of
many Lovecraft-based films such as From Beyond?
The season with the Xindi shit sucked balls
And that is when I stopped. Archer was a pussy, anyway. Having Sam
Beckett as captain is a dick move. However, having Al as a cylon is
a great move. One can never predict the vagaries of life after
Quantum Leap.
Elemenope|6.13.08 @ 1:19PM|#
Yeah, they were pretty clearly supposed to be the "evil
capitalists." The whole Star Trek motif, esp STTNG, had a creepy
"Communism is the future" vibe.
Well, to be entirely fair, the movies and later series emphasized
that the communism was a direct consequence of living in a
post-scarcity economy, i.e. both the materials and means of
production are essentially universally available and really fucking
cheap.
|6.13.08 @ 1:21PM|#
I'm probably not going to get a lot of help with my fantasy football draft on this thread, am I?
|6.13.08 @ 1:21PM|#
Our conservative figurehead "Rush Limbaugh" made comments
recently about Michelle Obama, BUT, this was just posted on a site
in Miami:
"Regarding Rush Limbaugh's sexuality : understood that he was
questioned by police officers in regards to his relationship with
several 13 to 15 year old boys.
This information came from a friend of one of the officers, a
female detective. That detective apparently "lost her cool" when
dealing with Limbaugh, he apparently told her to " grow up, it's a
new world ".
Elemenope|6.13.08 @ 1:22PM|#
Wasn't he played by Jeffrey Combs, B-movie legend and
veteran of many Lovecraft-based films such as From
Beyond?
Yep. Love that guy.
And that is when I stopped. Archer was a pussy, anyway. Having
Sam Beckett as captain is a dick move. However, having Al as a
cylon is a great move. One can never predict the vagaries of life
after Quantum Leap.
LOL. Then I would definitely recommend the season immediately
following; it was quite excellent. I somewhat agree that Bakula was
a bad casting choice, but I found the supporting cast of characters
to be above average.
Colin Clout|6.13.08 @ 1:23PM|#
TallDave,
One of the recurrent themes of the Star Trek universe was the need
to respect civil liberty and individual autonomy.
TallDave|6.13.08 @ 1:23PM|#
True, the less scarcity we have the more the more socialism we
can afford. I think John Barnes has the future right: people will
have to work a few hours a week for a few years, and will bitterly
resent every minute of it.
Still, the Picard speech about how "in our time, people are not
obsessed with the acquisition of material wealth" was an
eyeroller.
charlie|6.13.08 @ 1:24PM|#
Weigel: "that's because the rest of the media . . . don't
enjoy wasting time chasing b.s. rumors."
Um... really? We must not be following the same media.
|6.13.08 @ 1:24PM|#
I'm probably not going to get a lot of help with my fantasy football draft on this thread, am I?
The Cleveland Browns are gonna win the Super Bowl. That's all I'm tellin' ya (that and draft KW2).
TallDave|6.13.08 @ 1:31PM|#
One of the recurrent themes of the Star Trek universe was
the need to respect civil liberty and individual
autonomy.
True, I was thinking economic more than political philosophy.
But I thought Stargate SG-1 was considerably superior, as was the
constant political tension in BSG.
I love the scene in SG-1 where an oppressed human sees a digital
watch and realizes that there may be a group of humans sufficiently
advanced to free his people from their religious dictatorship.
TallDave|6.13.08 @ 1:33PM|#
Another great scene was he realized we weren't actually that
advanced:
"Surely you have many such space vessels."
"Uhhhh... we have a shuttle."
|6.13.08 @ 1:37PM|#
I can't see Winslow falling very far, and I can't see picking
him over Antonio Gates.
I'd take him before Tony Gonzalez, though.
tiredofitall|6.13.08 @ 1:37PM|#
What is sad is that people who do not necessarily support Obama or his positions find themself in a position of countering false statements. I have no intention of voting for the guy and yet I have on a few occaisions debunked or put in context something he has said just because I was so offended by what the other side/person was doing.
Colin Clout|6.13.08 @ 1:42PM|#
TallDave,
What exactly does the Federation economy look like? Are there
tariffs? Who owns the "means of production?" What is the rate of
taxation (if taxes even exist)? I know that copyright exists
because a VOY episode dealt with that issue (the one where the Doc
writes a holonovel).
|6.13.08 @ 1:46PM|#
One of the recurrent themes of the Star Trek universe was
the need to respect civil liberty and individual
autonomy.
I'm sorry, but of all of the not-inherently-libertarian tendencies
that seem to permeate through the libertarian community (atheism,
climate change skepticism, Yakov Smirnoff fetishism, etc.) the one
I really don't get is the whole sci-fi obsession. Can I still
support a smaller, less intrusive government if I think Star Trek
sucks, I fell asleep a half hour into Lord of the Rings, and I've
never seen an original Star Wars movie?
P.S. Look for Greg Olsen to be a nice sleeper pick at TE, though I
wouldn't pick him too high seeing that the rumors of the Bears
having an offense have yet to be confirmed.
Episiarch|6.13.08 @ 1:49PM|#
Can I still support a smaller, less intrusive government if
I think Star Trek sucks, I fell asleep a half hour into Lord of the
Rings, and I've never seen an original Star Wars movie?
Sure, but you have no taste.
|6.13.08 @ 1:49PM|#
Art P.O.G.,
He's a stud. Matt Ryan is a stud, too, but he's also a
rookie.
High risk, but lots of upside.
Episiarch|6.13.08 @ 1:51PM|#
Then I would definitely recommend the season immediately
following; it was quite excellent.
Maybe I can give it a try.
I somewhat agree that Bakula was a bad casting choice, but I
found the supporting cast of characters to be above
average.
What, like Jolene Blalock? ;-)
|6.13.08 @ 1:52PM|#
Yakov Smirnoff fetishism
lol.
High risk, but lots of upside.
Hmm. Good call. I don't really do the Fantasy League thing, but I always watch football (and basketball and MMA) when they're on.
TallDave|6.13.08 @ 2:02PM|#
Who owns the "means of production?"
Apparently not anyone "obsessed with acquiring material
wealth."
They don't say much about it, probably partly because describing a
post-scarcity economy is difficult, but mostly because economics is
boring.
In one of the movies, Picard says "The economics of the future are
somewhat different." and the 21st-century post-apocalyptic
African-American engineer he;'s talking to is shocked and says "You
mean you don't get paid?" That's as deep as I can remember any
discussion getting.
Colin Clout|6.13.08 @ 2:02PM|#
Club,
Sure. However, putting my pedant hat on, I would note that LOTR
really isn't science-fiction.
kinnath|6.13.08 @ 2:04PM|#
the one I really don't get is the whole sci-fi
obsession.
If A then B; does not imply if B then A.
I would tend to think that people that grew up with Sci-Fi tend to
be drawn to libertarianism, not the other way around.
If you actually read any good Sci-Fi, you'd understand that already
;-)
Colin Clout|6.13.08 @ 2:05PM|#
TallDave,
Well, at the very least small businesses exist independently of the
state - as is evidenced by the restaurant owned by Sisko's
father.
|6.13.08 @ 2:05PM|#
I heard a rumor that Michelle Obama is hot.
"Don't you wish your girlfriend was hot like me" meets "She is
touring the facility and taking up slack" hot.
Anyone else hear that one?
Yeah, but it was debunked with a Google images search. Unless you
are sub, looking for a dom with a mean streak.
When we stop looking for saints, we might find a decent
president or two.
OF course, if we weren't looking for a saint, nobody would be very
interested in Barack Obama. We'd be looking for somebody with
qualifications and ideas, instead.
I keep changing it, the server squirrels keep changing it
back.
Stop fighting it, joe/WIngnutz. The squirrels have spoken.
One of the recurrent themes of the Star Trek universe was the
need to respect civil liberty and individual autonomy.
As illustrated by routine quasi-military unilateral interventions
into other cultures.
Our conservative figurehead "Rush Limbaugh" made comments
recently about Michelle Obama
During my weekly half-hour dip into Rush yesterday or day before,
all I heard him doing was scoffing at the Michelle rumors. Don't
know what else he might have had to say at other times, of
course.
TallDave|6.13.08 @ 2:07PM|#
Heh, someone wrote an essay arguing Star Trek is Communist.
Pretty funny:
What was the last time you heard about someone buying or
selling something from another Federation citizen? People give one
another objects, and they might even barter, but they never use
their credits to buy things from one another (at least, nothing
substantive such as a vehicle, a cottage, a boat, etc). Kirk talked
about Scotty's "pay" and Scotty "bought a boat" in ST6, but of
course, that was in the good old days of TOS. Ahhh, memories ...
when men were men, women wore miniskirts, and nobody drank
synthehol.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/Trek-Marxism.html
Colin Clout|6.13.08 @ 2:09PM|#
TallDave,
If I am not mistaken, Sisko's son buys transporter time when he is
on Earth and Sisko states that if he keeps on using so much he's
going to run out of credits.
TallDave|6.13.08 @ 2:12PM|#
Oh man, this thing is great:
The military gains increased influence.
In the Federation, the concentration of government assets in
military hands is almost total: there is very little distinction
between "Starfleet" and "Federation". In fact, the terms seem to be
used almost interchangeably on the show.
When Doctor Bashir's parents were charged with violating the
Federation's anti-genetic engineering laws, they wanted to fight
the charge but they eventually decided to capitulate and offer
themselves up for the sentencing decision ... of a judge wearing a
Starfleet uniform! Only an exceptionally influential military would
have the ability to try and sentence civilians!
They're all company cars: What was the last time you saw a
privately owned personal starship? Starships are either government
warships, diplomatic vessels, or transports. The only one-person
vehicles (apart from non-Federation vehicles such as Quark's ship
or Bajor's spacecraft) are runabouts and shuttles, and they are
always government property. Some might argue that starships must be
very expensive or difficult to operate and therefore impractical
for personal use, but Quark's ship disproved this idea.
Citizens are forced to work. Probably 100% implemented in the
TNG era Federation.
Even though everyone is guaranteed a comfortable standard of living
by the state, everyone works hard. There are no beach bums.
Therefore, since laziness is an innate human characteristic, we can
infer that such penalties probably exist, even if we never
explicitly see them in action
Orange Line Special|6.13.08 @ 2:14PM|#
Oh, the horror! Someone called BHO "disingenuous" to his
face??? Aren't there laws against
HoldingPoliticiansAccountable???
While I object to Weigel pretending that the MSM does anything
approaching reporting, and I object to AJ Strata being elected to
represent we bloggers, there's a solution to all these issues:
Weigel should go ask Obama one of these questions.
That would be real reporting, it would show up the MSM, and it
would replace rumors with facts. So, why doesn't he do something
like that?
TallDave|6.13.08 @ 2:14PM|#
Colin,
He actually addresses that:
Federation "credits" are often mentioned, but never used to buy
anything of significant value. In real life, rubles were similar:
they were used heavily throughout the Soviet Union, but they were
not very useful for purchasing foreign-made goods or bribing public
officials. As a result, a vast black market in foreign currency
(especially American dollars) appeared, funded largely by money
from tourism and illicit activities. This black market was so
widespread that authorities were known to turn a blind eye, for the
simple reason that they were often its beneficiaries.
The precious substance known as latinum is used for all major
transactions with outsiders (and even some shady transactions
inside the Federation). In fact, the more illicit a given activity
is, the more likely it will be paid for in latinum. This indicates
that Federation credits are not useful for such purposes, which
would be consistent with typical communist currencies. Much as a
large part of the Russian economic infrastructure was fueled by
black-market foreign currencies, there is probably a heavy
black-market trade in latinum, since it is so much more useful than
the Federation's communist credit system.
Hilarious.
shecky|6.13.08 @ 2:15PM|#
Who even gets offended by the word "whitey" anyhow? I grew up in a lower middle class mixed area during the 70s, and the epithet even back then among the grade school crowd carried less weight than "dummy".
Elemenope|6.13.08 @ 2:16PM|#
What, like Jolene Blalock? ;-)
Um, yeah, she was...excellent. :) But slightly more seriously, I
personally liked the engineer with the perpetual foot-in-mouth
"walking diplomatic disaster" syndrome.
Who owns the "means of production?"
They don't say much about it, probably partly because describing a
post-scarcity economy is difficult, but mostly because economics is
boring.
Wha...? I thought it was self-evidently obvious. All you need is a
replicator that can make replicators...QED. I imagine one could
quibble about energy sources, but seeing as how they've apparently
perfected both energy-positive fusion *and* matter-antimatter
reactions for the bigger stuff, I'm gonna go ahead and hazard that
that ain't muchuva problem
What I did like about DS9 was the posit that despite a relief of
economic pressures due to a lack of scarcity, there were still
problems like political terrorism and civil corruption that today
we often associate automatically either with greed or poverty.
|6.13.08 @ 2:19PM|#
...I would note that LOTR really isn't
science-fiction.
I thought about that right after I clicked "submit." I had a
feeling somebody was going to call me out on that.
Heh, someone wrote an essay arguing Star Trek is
Communist.
I wouldn't know, but the Smurfs
definitely are.
TallDave|6.13.08 @ 2:22PM|#
Wha...? I thought it was self-evidently obvious. All you
need is a replicator that can make replicators...QED.
The technology is easy, how the mechanics of finance and investment
and etc. would work in that situation are a bit more complicated.
Along with Barnes, Charles Stross has a book "Accelerando" that
looks at what the evolution to a post-scarcity economy might look
like. "Rainbow's End" from Vinge also explores nearer future
economics.
Episiarch|6.13.08 @ 2:22PM|#
LMNOP, I just did a little research (places where I am not lazy--finding out about SciFi), and it seems that the last season that you liked and recommended occurred after Manny Coto was brought in as showrunner. I like Coto, as he was responsible for the very cool but not well known Odyssey 5 (it's good to have Showtime sometimes). Now I am actually interested.
Colin Clout|6.13.08 @ 2:24PM|#
TallDave,
What was the last time you saw a privately owned personal
starship?
Well, there is mention of (and rescue of same) of trading vessels
of all manner of origin throughtout the series. A number of them
have signficant warp drive capability and since they are cargo
vessels one would assume that they are quite large.
There seems to be evidence both ways in other words.
TallDave|6.13.08 @ 2:24PM|#
There's another Stross book, Iron Sunrise (iirc), in which one subplot involves an advanced civilization that goes around dropping replicators on primitive societies, which destroy their economies and create the problem that lots of people promptly use them to replicate weapons of mass destruction.
TallDave|6.13.08 @ 2:26PM|#
Well, there is mention of (and rescue of same) of trading
vessels of all manner of origin throughtout the series.
Soviets had trading vessels too.
TallDave|6.13.08 @ 2:28PM|#
This is probably most damning:
The concept of an investment portfolio is so alien to them that
when a frozen 20th century tycoon was thawed out in "The Neutral
Zone", Picard was completely dumbfounded at the man's desire to
check on his portfolio. He couldn't even understand the concept,
and complained that he couldn't understand what the man was talking
about! Obviously, this is typical of a communist state, but hardly
typical of a capitalist state. Even before modern stock markets and
investment vehicles, the concept of investment still
existed.
Episiarch|6.13.08 @ 2:29PM|#
Wha...? I thought it was self-evidently obvious. All you
need is a replicator that can make replicators...QED
This is much what I thought about Asimov's robots. Once you have a
few, they can make more of themselves and you essentially have
limitless slave labor. Since the robots were presumably dexterous
enough to build just about anything, no one need do any manual
labor ever again.
|6.13.08 @ 2:32PM|#
lmnop, hubby and I have been watching Enterprise every
Monday since they started running them 4 at a time on SciFi. Then,
just before they reached the last season, they put TNG on
Mondays and moved Enterprise to Tuesday.
Now we only get three episodes a week, and they started over at the
beginning! ARGH!
It's ok, we're hooked and watch 'em all, anyway :)
I agree that Bakula wasn't the best choice for the role; I think he
offered up mixed performances throughout. The rest of the cast are
great, though. I felt more chemistry between them more often than I
felt it with the TNG cast, and I started out as a
TOS and TNG fan.
What was this thread about again?
Colin Clout|6.13.08 @ 2:32PM|#
TallDave,
But the Soviet vessels were owned by the state (or at least that
would be my guess). Starfleet doesn't seem to own these
vessels.
BTW, there is evidence of lazy folks in the ST universe; Paris in a
VOY alternate universe epsidose is shown boozing it up, etc. and
living his life like that. Now he's castigated for living that way,
but there doesn't seem to be any state effort to make him live his
life any other way.
Elemenope|6.13.08 @ 2:32PM|#
The precious substance known as latinum is used for all
major transactions with outsiders (and even some shady transactions
inside the Federation). In fact, the more illicit a given activity
is, the more likely it will be paid for in latinum. This indicates
that Federation credits are not useful for such purposes, which
would be consistent with typical communist currencies. Much as a
large part of the Russian economic infrastructure was fueled by
black-market foreign currencies, there is probably a heavy
black-market trade in latinum, since it is so much more useful than
the Federation's communist credit system.
Not to completely spaz-geek out, like I haven't already, but here
goes.
What is most likely is that the Federation "credit" system is some
type of energy credit system (like as is often proposed in a
Technocracy) in order to ration the only non-renewable resource
left (which, of course, would be energy production). Latinum is a
store of value because it is one of the few substances known that
cannot be replicated; thus there can be no direct exchange rate
between energy credits and latinum, because one cannot use energy
credits to produce more latinum out of thin air.
Latinum's use as a favored currency for black market trading stems
from the notion that a store of value is only useful for
transactions that for whatever reason could otherwise be preempted
or otherwise achieved by a simple or cheap expenditure of
energy...which one might imagine includes illegal tasks (like
assassination or likewise), or trading in irreproducible goods.
Kolohe|6.13.08 @ 2:32PM|#
Since this has devolved (evolved?) into a sci fi thread:
Did anyone catch that Charlie Jade last week?
I thought it sucked ass, but only because they packed about 12
minutes of story into 49 minutes. Anyone think it's going to get
better?
Elemenope|6.13.08 @ 2:35PM|#
This is much what I thought about Asimov's robots. Once you
have a few, they can make more of themselves and you essentially
have limitless slave labor. Since the robots were presumably
dexterous enough to build just about anything, no one need do any
manual labor ever again.
Or as was said more cynically and concisely in the (much unfairly
maligned) movie:
"SO, robots *building* robots. Now that's just
stupid."
What was this thread about again?
Fucking LOL!
Episiarch|6.13.08 @ 2:38PM|#
The Star Trek economics system was hamstrung before it even started by Roddenberry's complete ignoring of it (pretty much) during TOS. This put certain basic stuff into the canon that later, more economically thoughtful writers had to deal with as a starting point. Also, TNG added to this by being aggressively anti-materialist.
|6.13.08 @ 2:41PM|#
Also, TNG added to this by being aggressively
anti-materialist.
Which is why, although i always watched TNG and enjoyed it, I could
never take it seriously.
Maybe that's why I like Enterprise so much more.
|6.13.08 @ 2:41PM|#
How about this for a rumor:
Over the past 4-6 years the Democrat's party has moved
significantly left of the American voter, Obama included.
No Name Guy|6.13.08 @ 2:43PM|#
Thats entirely true, Joshua.
Unfortunately, in the past 4-6 years the Republicans have shown
themselves entirely unfit to govern a two-bit hamlet, let alone the
federal government.
Episiarch|6.13.08 @ 2:45PM|#
What was this thread about again?
Something stupid that Dave has been harping on daily, which is why
I derailed it.
Elemenope|6.13.08 @ 2:46PM|#
Not for nothing, but isn't "the average American voter" a useless fucking abstraction?
Bingo|6.13.08 @ 2:51PM|#
I don't even care about anything anymore. This has seriously raised my apathy levels to new records. Holy shit can the left- and right-wing talking heads just suck each other off and get it over with?
jtuf|6.13.08 @ 2:55PM|#
This is going to be a long summer. On the one extreme, people suggest conspiracy theories. On the other extreme, people say that Obama never made a gaffe and that suggesting he did is proof of ignorance. Everyone in between will try to stick to the candidates actual policies.
kinnath|6.13.08 @ 2:56PM|#
but isn't "the average American voter" a useless fucking
abstraction?
The average american voter makes decisions based upon political ads
that have less intellectual weight than those old
tastes-great/less-filling beer commercials.
|6.13.08 @ 2:58PM|#
I defy anyone to better the summary of current American politics proffered by Joshua @ 2:41 and No Name @ 2:43.
No Name Guy|6.13.08 @ 2:59PM|#
Its kinda pathetic Obama hasn't been able to build a big lead. His bump from the primary evaporated today. The election just shouldn't be this close.
|6.13.08 @ 3:21PM|#
several people in Democratic circles did, because that's
where the rumor apparently started
Wait, what?
Is Weigal being sarcastic or is this true?
|6.13.08 @ 3:27PM|#
Wait, what?
Is Weigal being sarcastic or is this true?
Fuck it...
never mind, I do not want to know.
Just please stop the madness.
|6.13.08 @ 3:28PM|#
Here's the big difference between the Bush National Guard
documents, and the Obama rumours: the burden of proof.
The burden of proof rests with those making the extraordinary
claim. In the former case, it was the media making the
extraordinary claim, and citizen journalists quickly debunked it in
a matter of hours. But with the latter it is citizen journalists
making the extraordinary claims. They're not bothering with proofs,
but like their equally deranged cousins the Troofers, are "just
asking questions".
Colin Clout|6.13.08 @ 3:33PM|#
Episiarch,
Also, TNG added to this by being aggressively
anti-materialist.
In the philosophical sense? If so, Trek is about materialist as one
gets.
If you mean in the sense of the accumulation of material goods, why
would you need that if you can conjure stuff up via holographic
suites, replicators, etc.?
Episiarch|6.13.08 @ 3:45PM|#
Colin, even if you have a replicator, you cannot just imagine
all the things you might like. Until you saw a snowflake, could you
tell the replicator to make it? And even if you did, you would
always have the same one.
TNG heavily stressed Zen-like bullshit (the Klingon warrior
garbage, Troy's psychic abilities, Picard's Earl Grey tea), and
definitely under stressed stuff like finding alien artifacts in
ruins and the like, and when they did, it was always for scientific
knowledge. That somebody might want something just because they
liked it, and not because it was part of their job or high-brow
hobby, was not really looked upon well.
TallDave|6.13.08 @ 4:18PM|#
What was this thread about again? Something stupid that Dave
has been harping on daily, which is why I derailed it.
Yeah, our topic is much more fun anyway.
BTW, the PS3 rocks!! GTA is great, Heavenly Sword too. 1080i
ftw!
Starfleet doesn't seem to own these vessels.
Is there any evidence of that?
TallDave|6.13.08 @ 4:20PM|#
Also, TNG added to this by being aggressively
anti-materialist.
I think a lot of this is just a byproduct of trying to paint a
utopian future. Naturally, to get there they had to eliminate the
evil of materialism.
If you mean in the sense of the accumulation of material goods,
why would you need that if you can conjure stuff up via holographic
suites, replicators, etc.?
You can't conjure up an original Van Gogh.
There will always be status symbols for the acquisitive to
chase.
TallDave|6.13.08 @ 4:23PM|#
Also, if I can replicate a fission-fusion warhead I can prevent you from replicating anything.
Colin Clout|6.13.08 @ 4:29PM|#
TallDave,
Well, that role is in part filled by rank, by who has the best
holonovel creation ability, by wotrk skill sets, etc. Anyway,
pretty clearly art, antiques, etc. are all present in the Trek
universe - which is in part why "Bones" gives Kirk an antique pair
of antique spectacles.
Is there any evidence of that?
Well, there aren't any starfleet personnel on them. Indeed, many of
them have crews which appear to lack any sort of uniform, well,
uniforms.
Curious Hussein George|6.13.08 @ 4:37PM|#
There are enough reasons to vote against Obama without having video proof that his wife Michelle is a deranged, bitter, kill-whitey racist.
Episiarch|6.13.08 @ 4:40PM|#
Colin, to expand upon the materialism theme, if you recall in
the fourth movie, Sulu flies a chopper and makes some remark about
training in them in the academy or maybe even owning one. I could
also see him having his own customized shuttle (in essence a sports
car) to zoom around space in, purely for enjoyment. Kirk has his
antique weapons collection in the first movie. These objects serve
no purpose other than to be possessed or for enjoyment.
TNG also has these themes, but they are much different. Almost
everything that Picard or Ryker or anyone else has is for a
purpose, some "nobler" thing. For instance, Ryker's trombone--it is
for making music and is not just a possession. Worf's weapons are
for ceremonial purposes and training.
Basically, no one in TNG owns stuff just for the sake of owning it.
There is always some "spiritual" or artistic purpose.
|6.13.08 @ 5:06PM|#
Next rumor is Larry Sinclair, which actually is an old rumor but is threatening to get more attention. Pathetic.
Colin Clout|6.13.08 @ 5:25PM|#
Episiarch,
Riker pretty clearly has the trombone for enjoyment. Picard's books
similarly seem to be primarily for enjoyment. Simiarly when Geordi
is making that tall ship in one of the earilier episodes for his
former captain I'm not quite sure what the purpose of the object is
other than enjoyment and as a means to show appreciation, etc.
Anyway, at this point we seem to be splitting hairs.
I've come to the conclusion as a result of this discussion that one
can spin a heck of a lot of convincing narratives about the Trek
universe which can also be mutually contradictory.
|6.13.08 @ 8:10PM|#
No Name Guy, I couldn't help but notice that you didn't write a
word about during the three day period when Obama's lead was
widening, but are now spamming every thread with the observation
that one day's number show his lead smaller than it was.
I don't think my statistics professor would approve.
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