Reason Magazine
- reason.com
- reason.tv
- reason.org
- Donate
- Site Search:
Reason on Facebook
Reason on Twitter
Reason on YouTube
Reason RSSGet Reason E-mail Updates!
Manage your Reason e-mail list subscriptionsadvertisements
|6.9.08 @ 10:15AM|#
What a pretty picture! Easily worth the hundreds of billions of dollars it took to get it.
No Name Guy|6.9.08 @ 10:19AM|#
Well P, if the government MUST take money from me, I'd rather have it go to cool stuff like robots on mars than killing people in foreign countries or ethanol subsidies.
stephen the goldberger|6.9.08 @ 10:20AM|#
I saw this on reddit and I don't get why this picture's so amazing. Because the Earth is actually small compared to the rest of the universe? Any idiot knows that. What's the big deal?
|6.9.08 @ 10:33AM|#
No Name Guy- I appreciate that argument, and I agree with it, as
far as it goes.
But I would prefer to keep my little piece of the tab, and use it
in for *I* deem to be the highest marginal utility. Even if that
means more beer.
|6.9.08 @ 10:35AM|#
As much as I appreciate this type of stuff, I still haven't
bought into it as being a legitimate function of government. I'm
sure the NASA suckups will point out all the wonderful things that
NASA research has introduced to everyday society, but I'm entirely
unconvinced that these discoveries would not have occurred in the
absence of government spending.
But it is a way cool picture.
|6.9.08 @ 10:36AM|#
from Mars?
Wouldn't the moon appear to be nothing but a speck from Mars?
Wouldn't Earth be only a speck about as bright as Venus is for
us?
That's more likely to be "The moon and earth from high earth
orbit."
No Name Guy|6.9.08 @ 10:38AM|#
P Brooks I understand, and if almost all taxes were abolished
tomorrow except those necessary for police, national defense, and
roads, I'd gladly donate a piece of the money I save to space
exploration (whether by the govt or private enterprise).
I think millions of others would, too.
|6.9.08 @ 10:38AM|#
Better this than social security.
The space program might eventually give me a Tang or Teflon coating
or an ovation guitar and, as stated above, is not killing
innocents.
Social security gives me squat except keeping the ancient alive to
vote themselves more give aways.
robc|6.9.08 @ 10:39AM|#
is not killing innocents.
Well, not many. Just because they were "participants" doesnt make
them "not innocent".
Taktix®|6.9.08 @ 10:41AM|#
I'm a big fan of Cory Doctorow, who posted this at Boing
Boing.
As much as I appreciate this type of stuff, I still haven't
bought into it as being a legitimate function of
government.
I could see it being valuable until 1989, as I'd rather have a
wasteful technology battle than a full-on nuclear war.
This time has past, however...
|6.9.08 @ 10:43AM|#
Maybe the perfect title for the photo should have been "The Earth and its Moon as seen through a telescope on Mars." Mars has two tiny little moons of its own, which are dwarfed by our own mighty moon. (We are so cool!)
|6.9.08 @ 10:43AM|#
Great picture, though there's an older one from
Voyager that's made the rounds (taken between 5 and 10 million
miles away).
Here's
one of the Earth from Saturn.
KipEsquire|6.9.08 @ 10:44AM|#
"Not killing innocents"? Ever heard of opportunity cost?
I personally would like to thank all the innocents who died
horrible deaths from cancer and other diseases because we spent our
money on "stunning and beautiful" rather than on research and
development.
If you're going to be unlibertarian and champion spending taxpayer
money on something that is simply not a public good, then at least
try not be hopelessly myopic (dare I say selfish?) about it. There
are objectively bigger bangs for the taxpayer buck than this.
|6.9.08 @ 10:45AM|#
Wouldn't the moon appear to be nothing but a speck from
Mars?
The picture was taken using the equivalent of a telescope.
|6.9.08 @ 10:48AM|#
I'd prefer that we do this privately, but it's a minor portion of all the things our government spends our money on that it shouldn't. However, claims that space exploration isn't important show an incredibly short-sighted view, in my opinion.
|6.9.08 @ 10:56AM|#
Akin to the seminal Earth rise photos from Apollo 8 in 1968
- these images made the hair stand up on the back of my
neck.
Earth Rise, was one of those 'changed forever' pictures. Once
you've seen it, it makes an impression you never forget. This pic
puts Earth and Moon in the same frame, but it's not nearly as
potent.
|6.9.08 @ 11:01AM|#
"The picture was taken using the equivalent of a
telescope."
Typical government work.
Let's go all the way to the grand canyon to use a telescope to take
a picture we could have taken a couple of blocks away from the
house.
oso|6.9.08 @ 11:07AM|#
I've posted this in another NASA thread, but it bears repeating:
NASA / JPL's Near Earth Asteroid Tracking program is one that could
literally save the human race... and that's not global-warming
style hyperbole. the presence of multiple large asteroid craters on
Earth shows the inevitibility of another impact in the
future.
also to the "no death to innocents for NASA" crowd: please refresh
yourselves with the history of that agency. Especially research
Wernher von Braun and the Dora camp. Without them, the US wouldn't
have won the Space Race.
|6.9.08 @ 11:28AM|#
Great picture.
Asimov once argued that it was unfortunate that neither Mars nor
Venus had a comparably large moon. It would have destroyed
Ptolemy's Earth-centered universe idea 1500 years earlier.
|6.9.08 @ 11:32AM|#
I think we all know NASA isn't a legitimate function of
government, but it's one of those things that's hard to say 'no'
to.
And aside from that, we're a bunch of losers for turning a thread
about a cool picture into more political arguing.
|6.9.08 @ 11:47AM|#
oso,
I just learned about a new theory that a comet exploded over North
America 13,000 years ago, killing lots of people and megafauna. I
don't think this is proven or accepted, yet, but there is some
evidence supporting the theory. This would be a bad thing today. As
would a repeat of Tungusta.
lunchstealer|6.9.08 @ 11:52AM|#
The Mars Phoenix
Lander was twittering about that pic earlier. It's also got a
post about it's own pic of Earth in the Mars sky.
Commence jokes about uptime of lander 15 light-minutes away being
higher than uptime of twitter.
lunchstealer|6.9.08 @ 11:54AM|#
ProGLib,
Is that the one that's supposed to have created the Carolina Bays?
|6.9.08 @ 12:05PM|#
the presence of multiple large asteroid craters on Earth
shows the inevitibility of another impact in the future.
And we would do what, exactly, to prevent it?
|6.9.08 @ 12:12PM|#
lunchstealer,
I think that's a case of converging theories. The cometary
explanation of the Carolina Bays long predates the so-called Clovis
comet theory, which only appeared last year. I'd a little dubious
about such a massive and recent event not having more widespread
evidence, but there are some anomalies that seem better explained
by the cometary theory. Distressing if true.
MP,
There are a number
of suggestions (and far better sources than Wikipedia--I'm just
being lazy) about how to deflect an oncoming asteroid or comet. All
of which work far, far better if we attempt the deflection earlier
rather than later. If we sit and wait, there's a 100% chance that
some number of people will be killed at some point in the
future.
|6.9.08 @ 12:13PM|#
"And we would do what, exactly, to prevent it?"
Dude, don't you watch Michael Bay/Jerry Bruckheimer films?
lunchstealer|6.9.08 @ 12:20PM|#
Jaybird
The image was taken by the HiRISE sensor on the Mars
Reconnaissance Orbiter. It takes images like
this.
So to recap: That image couldn't have been taken from high earth
orbit, because an orbit high enough to take that image would
require so much energy to achieve as to be practically useless.
More useless than the low Mars orbit it was actually taken from.
The image wasn't the primary purpose of the sensor which took it.
Rather, it was a target of opportunity taken during a break in
normal operations, which obtain images that could not be acquired
any other way.
There are plenty of legit criticisms of NASA, but you're bringin'
weak game here.
|6.9.08 @ 12:21PM|#
If we sit and wait, there's a 100% chance that some number
of people will be killed at some point in the future.
Ummm, okay, because otherwise.....
|6.9.08 @ 12:23PM|#
KipEsquire,
Eureka! I found the cure for cancer!
Hey what's that bright light in the sk...
|6.9.08 @ 12:28PM|#
P Brooks,
Possibly a very large number of people. If North America really was
depopulated 13,000 years ago, it would be nice to avoid a repeat. .
.here or elsewhere.
HAL9000|6.9.08 @ 12:47PM|#
Space is the new ocean, and I think it does make sense for this
nation to figure out how to sail on it.
Space is where an ever-increasing piece of the action in human
affairs will be for the forseeable future; having a capability in
space that has no peer is libertarian in the sense that it is
strategically necessary like common defense. If we do not have a
(physical)say in what goes on above us, we do not control our
destiny and our own sovereignty among nations is diluted.
That being said, NASA is a disaster of a program. Rather than push
the edge, it tries to maintain itself as a massive industrial
complex of jobs programs and academics in enough critical
congressional districts to gurantee political viability. The
current Ares/Orion rocket machines slated to replace the shuttle
seem contrived expressly to achieve political survivability first
and any kind of meangingful capability in space almost as an
afterthought.
The next several years are going to be critical in the evolution of
the human capability in space. With Ares/Orion going through the
usual (for the gov, anyways) delays and cost overuns to the tune of
several billion dollars, NASA has had a $500 million dollar
contract called "COTS." The idea is a cheap vehicle for basic
logistics to the space station to fill the "gap" on the calendar
between the shuttle retiring and Ares going on-line. It looks
however that some competitors will field a vehicle that essentially
does what Ares is supposed to do, at a relative fraction of the
cost and schedule. This will force NASA to choose one of two
things:
One: Be rational and ditch the Ares/Orion corporate welfare rocket,
and turn into a purchaser of launch services instead oa developer
and operator.
Two: NASA can utilize its bureaucratic hook-ups to kill off private
space flight with any litany of scaremongering
(narco-terrorist-pornographer-on-line pokerplaying Jesus-hating
Muhammad loving homos might get ICBM'S off the shelf! They need to
be "regulated" for public safety!).
If NASA ends up going the route of the former, NASA will be
irrelevant to the explosion of space travel and industry in the
same sense DARPA wasn't a big player in the internet revolution
despite inventing it in a lab.
If NASA goes the other way, we will have our typical bloated
space-mess, and NASA will become irrelevant anyways competing with
the big Asian government space operations now coming on-line, and
gaining resources and capabilities every year as NASA's own
effective buying power and technical lead diminishes relative to
them. With that, and a regulatory choke-hold on private rocket
machines in the USA, the USA will become an irrelevant bit-player
in space, endlessly making documentaries about the halcyon days of
Apollo...just like we do now! Wheee!
lunchstealer|6.9.08 @ 12:51PM|#
It's kinda cool to see just how far away the Moon really is. It kind of seems closer when you just look at it. Also makes the whole Apollo journeys seem just a little bit lonelier.
|6.9.08 @ 2:45PM|#
Bitchen beautiful pic!
Wouldn't the moon appear to be nothing but a speck from
Mars?
"The picture was taken using the equivalent of a
telescope."
I wasn't sure cuz although we can't eee Phobos and Deimos, the
Martian satalites (moons) with unaided vision, they are really
small compared to Earth's moon. Also, they orbit quite close to
Mars. Phobos has an orbit that is only about 3 times as large as
Mars. For Deimos the distance is about 7 times the radius of Mars.
In comparison, the Earth's Moon orbits at a distance that is around
60 times the radius of the Earth.
And both of em are very black. All of this is probably why they
were not found until 1877 even though astronomers had searched.
|6.9.08 @ 2:47PM|#
Here's a larger version of the photo.
Even more bitchen beautiful! Thanks, Brian.
Tim Cavanaugh|6.9.08 @ 6:33PM|#
That's a beaut, but there's so much
color correction, enhancement and refinining in pics like these
that I'm never really sure what I'm seeing. For my money, this
grainy
spec taken from the Opportunity pancam is even more haunting,
in part because it looks remarkably like what Mars looks like when
you go out at night and see it in the sky.
Also, you may fairly object to the use of taxpayer money for stuff
like this, but "hundreds of billions of dollars" is a pan-galactic
exaggeration. NASA's whole budget is only $17 billion a year, and
all the unmanned Mars stuff is a tiny fraction of the total. Spirit
and Opportunity were done for less than $1 billion, IIRC.
|6.9.08 @ 8:41PM|#
Tim's point seems well taken. But there is still a more ethical
and productive way to fund space exploration. The most expensive
tools of astronomical exploration used to be the huge telescopes,
and they were enthusiastically funded with non-government money.
Many people love space exploration and it seems that their numbers
and enthusiasm would afford many commercial and charity avenues for
the financing of space exploration. In addition to the private
satellite launch companies in operation, there are hundreds of
organizations for astronomy/space enthusiasts.
If space exploration were privatized there would be a motivation
for those doing it to both educate the lay community about it as
well as to cater to their scientific interests in order to generate
donor support from them. This dynamic would tend to more actively
involve the general public in the enterprise then they are with the
taxpayer funded space program.
The political power wielded by those who receive tax dollars for
the government space program could well prove a formidable obstacle
to eliminating it. Perhaps a way to over come this obstacle and
transition into private space exploration would be to give tax
credits to those make donations to non-government space exploration
during the transition period.
When the machinations of free enterprise motivate space
exploration, I believe that it will yield surprising and even
unimaginable progress. Just look at the results of the forays of
capitalism into the other frontiers of human kind.
Famous Mortimer|6.9.08 @ 9:28PM|#
This thread is a perfect example of why Libertarians are
perceived as groaning nihilists that few people will ever support.
With such negativity routinely being cast towards anything that
doesn't involve a tax break, it's no wonder that the LP party is
nothing more than novelty act.
The detachment is even more pronounced when some people actually
attempt to claim that such missions would have absolutely happened
without government involvement.
Apparently, the jokes on you.
What a bunch of miserable fucks.
Famous Mortimer|6.9.08 @ 9:34PM|#
Also, all other endeavors must be halted until we find a cure for cancer.
|6.10.08 @ 11:44AM|#
R. Barton,
I think he was referring to a few posts claiming money spent on
space should be spent on health, education, etc.
Famous Mortimer|6.10.08 @ 9:26PM|#
"Famous Mortimer=The King of the non-sequitur"
And apparently you're the king of the randomly placed logical
fallacy label.
Hey, as long as you act confident that you know what you're talking
about.
|6.12.08 @ 12:50AM|#
Famous Mortime,
It wasn't random cuz it followed and accurately described your
comment.
Site comments/questions:
Media Inquiries and Reprint Permissions:
(310) 367-6109
Editorial & Production Offices:
3415 S. Sepulveda Blvd.
Suite 400
Los Angeles, CA 90034
(310) 391-2245