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Only Two of Them Got Impeached? Really?
Alex Massie holds a contest:
We are familiar with polls in which historians rank US Presidents in order of greatness in which the same names - Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln and so on - always finish at the top. So let's attempt something a little different. The Debatable Land polling organisation wants you to nominate your choices for the Most Over-Rated and Most Under-Rated Presidents in American history.
Ross Douthat and Megan McArdle have started to set the tone with rankings that exclude the presidents of the 19th century: Too many of them are "forgotten." But they're forgotten because that was the century in which the founders' intended balance between the executive and legislative branches actually held, and powerful House members could lead weak POTUSes around by the collar. It was fantastic. And too many 20th century presidents have already been reassessed. The canonization of Gerald Ford, already underway in the Bush/DeLay era, was completed five or six minutes after he died.
Over-Rated
1. Abraham Lincoln. I'm sorry. By any definition
of "over-rating," you have to go there. He has become our secular
saint, with a
multi-million dollar industry built around his veneration. That
just makes it all the easier when some John Yoo or another seizes
on Lincoln's abuses of power—suspending habeas corpus, directing
funds without the approval of a rump Congress, the "rich man's"
draft—to argue that the president has the right to split babies and
shoot laser beams from his eyes.
2. Theodore Roosevelt. The ideological and leadership-style antecendent of John McCain: the godfather of American interventionism. I don't know if it should affect his score, but TR became one of the worst ex-presidents (after Millard "sure, I'll run on your anti-Catholic ticket" Fillmore), dynamiting the Republican party, agitating for intervention into World War I.
3. George H.W. Bush. The most recent and disturbing example of presidential revisionism, Bush's renaissance began a few months after Bill Clinton took power and it has grown as Democrats cast about for a Republican they can say nice things about. Awful drug policy, short-sighted Russia policy, unforgiveable 11th hour pardons. Also, sired George W. Bush.
Under-Rated
1. Warren Harding. This is an easy call,
especially if you include Woodrow Wilson on the over-rated list (as
I almost did, but hedged because his reputation's been sinking).
Harding reversed much of Wilson's damage, freeing political
prisoners, ending the red scare, ending some of Wilson's
rubber-stamped
institutional racism. If that's not enough, four more words:
Treasury Secretary Andrew Mellon.
2. Chester A. Arthur. I'm not sure this is controversial anymore. Arthur succeeded beyond the expectations of even the people who gave him the vice presidential nomination, albeit on issues no one cares about anymore, like civil service reform.
3. Martin Van Buren. If Harding was the antidote to Wilson, Van Buren was the antidote to Jackson. The worst decisions he made were validating Jackson's final decisions, like Indian removal. Yes, he was hilariously venal, as when he sold Joseph Smith down the river because he feared coming out for Mormon rights would cost him Missouri (which he lost anyway). But the rest of his record was a model of sober, slow-handed executive power. He rebuffed two frenzies for military aggression against Canada and Mexico. It's hard not to sympathize with a guy who got un-seated by an empty suit like William Henry Harrison.
Over to you, commenters. Who should make the Massie Index?
Geotpf|4.29.08 @ 2:07PM|#
I always considered George HW Bush to be an empty suit, a nonentity, somebody who was more concerned with the superficial trappings of the office than any deep policy beliefs, and therefore mostly benign. I figured his son would be similar, so imagine my shock once he actually began to "govern".
thoreau|4.29.08 @ 2:07PM|#
George W. Bush will be seen as the worst President ever AND the most over-rated, on the grounds that "worst ever" is still not sufficiently harsh.
Bingo|4.29.08 @ 2:08PM|#
Given the GOP's recent obsessing, I'd say Reagan is close to
making the list.
Hell, pretty much all presidents starting with FDR onwards are
overrated. The media-hype and regal status makes it hard to not be
overrated.
Zeno|4.29.08 @ 2:09PM|#
Coolidge might be underrated. No one I know even remembers he
was president.
There seems to be a consensus forming that Reagan was 'important' -
no matter whether you love or hate him, he was a big guy.
Hasn't there also been some movement on the Hoover front, with
people finally noticing that he tried to create a New Deal but it
was blocked? That should raise his clout among people who love FDR
(though probably not among this crew here at Reason)
|4.29.08 @ 2:10PM|#
Most Overrated ... Lincoln, TR, FDR and JFK
Most Underrated ... Cleveland, Harding, Coolidge
|4.29.08 @ 2:11PM|#
Underrated:
Grover Cleveland
"The President So Nice, They Elected Me Twice. . .
Non-consecutively!"
Seriously, though, one of the finest Presidents we've ever had.
Check out his career:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grover_Cleveland
|4.29.08 @ 2:14PM|#
I've got to wonder who you're talking to that allows you to put
Bush I on the Overrated list. No one I know thinks highly of him
and only a few think anything of him at all. He's the Gerald Ford
of the 90s.
James Polk is SO underrated it's not even funny.
Peter|4.29.08 @ 2:14PM|#
When I said to my mother that my favorite president (as opposed
to hers: FDR) was Coolidge, she replied, "What!!! But he didn't do
anything."
I rest my case.
|4.29.08 @ 2:16PM|#
In 1844, the Democrats were split
The three nominees for the presidential candidate
Were Martin Van Buren, a former president and an abolitionist
James Buchanan, a moderate
Louis Cass, a general and expansionist
From Nashville came a dark horse riding up
He was James K. Polk, Napoleon of the Stump
Austere, severe, he held few people dear
His oratory filled his foes with fear
The factions soon agreed
He's just the man we need
To bring about victory
Fulfill our manifest destiny
And annex the land the Mexicans command
And when the votes were cast the winner was
Mister James K. Polk, Napoleon of the Stump
In four short years he met his every goal
He seized the whole southwest from Mexico
Made sure the tarriffs fell
And made the English sell the Oregon territory
He built an independent treasury
Having done all this he sought no second term
But precious few have mourned the passing of
Mister James K. Polk, our eleventh president
Young Hickory, Napoleon of the Stump
robc|4.29.08 @ 2:16PM|#
Coolidge was the best republican president. I guess that means he is very underrated.
thoreau|4.29.08 @ 2:17PM|#
I believe that the most important Presidential decisions ever made were by Washington and Adams: They both left office, one voluntarily (setting a precedent of no President for life) and one in response to an election loss (setting a precedent that election results would matter).
Episiarch|4.29.08 @ 2:20PM|#
Most presidents who we can remember quickly are overrated,
because they:
Took us to war
Implemented vast new government
Did expansive things like National Park Service/Manifest
Destiny
Expanded executive power massively
Therefore, most presidents who you can name off the top of your
head are overrated, GW, TJ, etc. excluded.
|4.29.08 @ 2:22PM|#
Overrated (not necessarily in order):
Lincoln
FDR
Kennedy
Reagan
TR
Polk
Underrated:
Coolidge
Eisenhower
both Adams
|4.29.08 @ 2:23PM|#
Polk is somewhat of an enigma ... wonderful on some counts like tariffs and not seeking a second term ... but nakedly imperialist. Most would argue that his victories on the border issues and the Mexican-American war redound to his credit ... this is tough for me. While I support what he did in the short term to secure valuable space for America to flourish ( he is THE Manifest destiny President)he set a precedent that TR picked up- the logical extension of Polk's policies was a robust nationalism.
|4.29.08 @ 2:26PM|#
Gah! Megan McArdle not only agrees with me, but she agrees with
me in almost my
exact words!
Do I get to have a drink now?
|4.29.08 @ 2:26PM|#
John Tyler, for standing by principles. The first vice president to become president after the president died, he rebuffed calls to be "Acting President" and returned mail that was so addressed. On constitutional grounds, he resisted pressure to go along with the Whig Party (his party) platform of subsidies and government-picking-winners. After he vetoed the tariff bill, an armed mob marched on the White House; Tyler issued guns to his servants and stared the mob down. Congress re-passed the bill, and he vetoed it again. His entire Cabinet resigned in protest, the Whig Party expelled him, the Senate rejected five Supreme Court nominees in a row, and the House nearly impeached him, but he stood his ground. He used his veto so frequently he was nicknamed the "Veto President." He also married a woman 30 years younger while President, after her father (the Secretary of War) died in an explosion. Later, near death, he led a peace conference seeking to avoid the Civil War, though after it failed his loyalty lay with his native Virginia.
|4.29.08 @ 2:28PM|#
Even John Adams as presented by the HBO miniseries is an enigma as Carlos identified Polk (though kind of in a different way - very anti-imperialist, almost pacifist, but highly desirous of strong "governance" coming from his very dim view of humanity).
|4.29.08 @ 2:32PM|#
Chester A. Arthur is under-rated because no one ever gives him points based solely on his awesome mustache.
|4.29.08 @ 2:32PM|#
The Best Presidents You've Never Heard Of
- Grover Cleveland
- Warren Harding
- William Howard Taft
- Chester Alan Arthur
- Martin Van Buren
Kolohe|4.29.08 @ 2:33PM|#
on Lincoln's abuses of power-suspending habeas
corpus,
"The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended,
unless when in cases of rebellion"
Yeah yeah, it's an article 1 power. Did congress tell Lincoln 'no,
no' on the habeas thing, but Abe thought 'no means yes'? I think it
happened that way.
Lincoln and Washington are the two 'essential men' of US History,
so in my estimation, they are always 'right-rated.'
But the above didn't ATFQ, so I'll say like some above:
Over: JFK
Under: Ike
Windypundit|4.29.08 @ 2:34PM|#
thoreau, I'm with you on Washington. After winning the Revolutionary War, he resigned his command, and then as President he refused to run for a third term. These two acts of turning away from power set the standard at an important time for this country. He may be overrated, but not by much.
Kolohe|4.29.08 @ 2:36PM|#
And since Taktix(R) brought it up:
The most underrated founder is Hamilton.
|4.29.08 @ 2:42PM|#
I get near the bottom of the thread and, lo and behold, I
see
Over: JFK
Under: Ike
which were my two choices as well. I enthusiastically welcome
Kolohe to the great minds club.
|4.29.08 @ 2:42PM|#
Hamilton underrated? He's on the most commonly-printed
denomination of currency.
And he sure did love him some authority-wielding.
Syd|4.29.08 @ 2:43PM|#
Overrated:
1) Andrew Jackson
2) John Adams. Generally ranked above average, but his presidency
was unsuccessful.
3) Harry Truman. Underrated when he was President, now we've gone
too far in the other direction. He was really about average. The
Marshall Plan was brilliant, though.
4 would be JFK, and 5 Woodrow Wilson. Wilson would be #1 except for
recent revisionism.
Underrated:
1) Chester Arthur
2) Warren G. Harding. Below average, but people tend to rank him as
the worst ever, which he's far from.
3) William Howard Taft. Tends to get underrated because he was
overshadowed by TR.
Sometimes Zachary Taylor makes this list. He's a hard president to
evaluate.
The Democratic Republican|4.29.08 @ 2:44PM|#
I have nothing intelligent to add, so I will merely say:
eff Ike and Polk
The Simpsons|4.29.08 @ 2:48PM|#
We are the mediocre presidents!
You won't find our faces on dollars or on cents
There's Taylor, there's Tyler, there's Fillmore and there's
Hayes
There's William Henry Harrison, "I died in thirty days"
We are the adequate, forgettable,
Occasionally regrettable
Caretaker presidents of the USA!
robc|4.29.08 @ 2:53PM|#
William Henry Harrison should be the model. Do something stupid that kills yourself off within a month.
|4.29.08 @ 2:57PM|#
Seriously though... I think Jefferson's still underrated.
Putting someone on the $2 bill is almost an insult.
|4.29.08 @ 3:01PM|#
Most overrated:
FDR, FDR, FDR, and... FDR
The only good beneficial result of his presidency was the 22nd
Amendment ("No person shall be elected the the office of President
more than twice...").
Guy Montag|4.29.08 @ 3:08PM|#
Kolohe,
on Lincoln's abuses of power-suspending habeas corpus,
"The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended,
unless when in cases of rebellion"
Whole passage:
The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended,
unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may
require it.
So, isn't Art. 1 Sec. 9 covering Congressional Powers and it is not
a power of the Executive to mess with?
Granted, I had a different view until I looked it up this time.
|4.29.08 @ 3:08PM|#
Say what you will about Teddy Roosevelt's many flaws but the man
took an assassin's bullet before a speech, proceeded to give the
speech with the bullet in his chest THEN got medical help.
My testicles forbid me to speak ill of the man.
Quercus|4.29.08 @ 3:13PM|#
Uh, how can a libertarian have the overrated list not start
with FDR?
Rimfax, there's a strong argument for Wilson. Grandiose foreign
policy combined with racism, a command economy, and suppression of
domestic dissent. Though on Wilson's side against FDR, it wasn't
USG policy in WWI to imprison German-Americans in concentration
camps.
|4.29.08 @ 3:18PM|#
"James Polk is SO underrated it's not even funny" ...Bull. Polk was a warmongering piece of shit. Horrible president.
Taktix®|4.29.08 @ 3:21PM|#
And since Taktix(R) brought it up:
The most underrated founder is Hamilton.
Fuck that dirty monarchist...
|4.29.08 @ 3:26PM|#
I have to apologize and admit I was wrong. Polk was a mucher better president than I remembered. He also defeated Henry Clay so that alone gets him top marks.
|4.29.08 @ 3:29PM|#
FDR has to go to the top of any overrated list. Every one of his
attempts to get out of the great depression made things worse. Yes,
he was right about World War II. But, he also committed any number
blunders in prosecuting the war. He further gave Stalin a blank
check to conquer Eastern Europe. History goes to the winners and he
did win the war. For that reason I wouldn't rate him as a bad
President, but regardless of the country winning the war under his
Presidency, he should never be considered a great President.
As far as Lincoln goes, I never figured Weigel to be a great
defender of slavery and Southern aggression, but you never know. I
would encourage all of the Lincoln haters to actually read the
Constitution that they are always yammering about. Specifically,
they might want to take a look at Article I, Section 9 which says,
"The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended,
unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may
require it." Last I looked the civil war was a "armed rebellion".
It is not like Lincoln suspended it without good reason or without
textual support of the Constitution. Further, had Lincoln not gone
to extreme lengths, he probably would have lost the war and rather
than having the wonderful productive South that we have today, we
would have a slavery infested sewer. It is impossible to imagine a
nation going into the 20th Century with 1/3rd of its inhabitants in
bondage. Yet, had the South won the war that is exactly what would
have happened. At best it would have ended up like South Africa, a
pariah state shunned by the world into some kind of reform. At
worse there would have been a slave revolt and it would have ended
up like Haiti. Both results would have been a hell of a lot worse
than what happened.
Lincoln is a Rorschach test of whether someone values principle or
reality. If you value principle, you hate Lincoln and see no
problem with damning people into God knows how many more years of
bondage in the name of limited government. If you value reality,
you are so shocked by the existence of slavery that you don't care
what rules he broke or how committed he really was to the cause,
you only care that his actions resulted in its end.
BakedPenguin|4.29.08 @ 3:31PM|#
Most underrated: Franklin Pierce... Just cause nobody's ever heard of him.
I'd imagine New Hampshire schoolkids hear about the one president
from NH. They did back in my day, anyhoo.
|4.29.08 @ 3:38PM|#
Andrew Jackson has to be most overrated now that I think about it. The guy practically destroyed the economy when he shut down the Bank of the United States. He also committed one of the great crimes in US history by evicting the Cherokees out of Georgia. Understand that the Cherokees weren't the Apaches out raiding and killing setlers. They were peaceful. They had their own government. They were farmers. They were so peaceful they were actually dumb enough to think they could sue in federal court to keep Jackson from stealing their land and forcing them to Oklahoma. They were not an inpediment to the country. They were an asset. Had they stayed in Georgia, Georgia still would have developed just fine. Jackson kicked them out out of pure greed and evil. Jackson should go to the top of any list of the worst Presidents in history.
|4.29.08 @ 3:43PM|#
Therefore, most presidents who you can name off the top of
your head are overrated, GW, TJ, etc. excluded.
Wasn't it Jefferson who went to war against the Middle Eastern
terrorists of the day?
Invisible Finger|4.29.08 @ 3:44PM|#
an empty suit like William Henry Harrison.
I don't know about his suit, but his overcoat was certainly
empty.
|4.29.08 @ 3:46PM|#
Lincoln did not have the right or enumerated power to suspend
habeus corpus, congress did.
Lincoln was not facing a "rebellion or invasion". He suspended
habeus corpus to arrest Maryland politicians to keep them from
voting to succeed. States had the right to succeed or at least
would have if Lincoln and allowed the case to come before the Taney
SCOTUS.
Lincoln invaded a sovereign nation to forcibly annex it. North
could have ended slavery in the remaining states, they did not.
North could have repealed fugitive slave act, they did not. Civil
war was not about slavery, it was about succession.
|4.29.08 @ 3:47PM|#
Off the top of my head:
Over--No contest, Reagan. Absolute butcher in Central America, AIDS
denier, cut and runner (to use current Repub. argot), drug war
militarizer, and an utterly useless drooling fool the last three
years or so of his presidency. The most recent spate of public
ballwashing hasn't helped his case.
Under--I'll go with Ike. Sincere guy. Had the stones to tell people
things they didn't want to hear, damn the consequences. Didn't care
much for his crimes in Guatemala or planning the Bay of Pigs
invasion...but no one is pure.
|4.29.08 @ 4:00PM|#
"Lincoln invaded a sovereign nation to forcibly annex it. North
could have ended slavery in the remaining states, they did not.
North could have repealed fugitive slave act, they did not. Civil
war was not about slavery, it was about succession."
The Confederacy was a criminal state intent on forcibly imposing
slavery across the territories and the West. Had there been no Dred
Scott or Southern terrorism in Kansas, you might have a point. But
of course those things did happen. The South had no legal to
succeed from the Union and was not a sovereign nation. It was never
recognized as a country by the international community. Lincoln
never invaded a sovereign territory. He put down a criminal
rebellion. Anyone who attacks Lincoln for doing so, de facto
defends the existence of slavery and the criminal regime that was
the Confederacy.
Neil|4.29.08 @ 4:12PM|#
John did the Thirteen Colonines have a legal right to seceed from the British Empire? Why?
Zeb|4.29.08 @ 4:16PM|#
Rebellions are necessarily illegal acts. If the rebellion
succeeds (a different word from secedes, by the way) then the new
country can establish itself as a legal entity. The Confederacy
lost, so their rebellion remained illegal.
At least I think that is how wars work: if you win, you get to be
right.
|4.29.08 @ 4:20PM|#
Jesus Christ, people:
"secession" = the withdrawal from the Union of 11 Southern states
in the period 1860-61, which brought on the Civil War.
"succession" = the coming of one person or thing after another in
order, sequence, or in the course of events
|4.29.08 @ 4:20PM|#
I happen to think John F. Kennedy was a helluva a good
president, but he's still vastly overrated.
There are nuns in Massachusetts who have pictures of him, up in the
clouds, with a halo of light around his head. Even a top-10
president falls short of divinity.
But I've got to go with Jackson, our genocidiest president. He will
be overrated until his name is spoken in the same breath as
Benedict Arnold and Charles Manson.
Underrated? Hoover. The guy gets blamed for causing the Great
Depression! And if we're including their careers outside the Oval
Office, he looks even better.
Guy Montag|4.29.08 @ 4:23PM|#
Erÿk Boston, Pre-Esq.,
Say what you will about Teddy Roosevelt's many flaws but the
man took an assassin's bullet before a speech, proceeded to give
the speech with the bullet in his chest THEN got medical
help.
If that is your standard then you might want to look into Andy
Jackson again. He had an old bullet work its way to the surface of
his sholder during a regular work day. Had the Doctor remove it and
kept working.
John,
Understand that the Cherokees weren't the Apaches out raiding
and killing setlers. They were peaceful. They had their own
government. They were farmers. They were so peaceful they were
actually dumb enough to think they could sue in federal court to
keep Jackson from stealing their land and forcing them to Oklahoma.
They were not an inpediment to the country. They were an asset. Had
they stayed in Georgia, Georgia still would have developed just
fine. Jackson kicked them out out of pure greed and evil. Jackson
should go to the top of any list of the worst Presidents in
history.
Other than everything you state here being false, you might have
some sort of point. The Cherokee in Georgia were, in essance,
trying to establish an extra-legal, independant state within the
boundries of other States. A modern description of the type of
state they were attempting to creat would be called Socialist, at
the kindest, today. And, they did indeed raid farms around them
too.
Also, Andy Jackson did, in that event, complete the Checks and
Balances notion of the Constitutional government by tossing the
descision back to the Supreme Court and telling them to try to
enforce it.
|4.29.08 @ 4:24PM|#
"John did the Thirteen Colonines have a legal right to seceed
from the British Empire? Why?"
I think Zeb gives about as good of an answer as can be given.
Further, the thirteen colonies had a much more moral case for
succession than the Confederacy did. Also, after Saratoga they
achieved foreign recognition. Something the South never achieved.
Lastly, I don't see any scenerio where the South wins the war and
where things would not have worked out much worse for both the
South and the country as a whole. Lincoln did not declare a
dictatorship or end American Democracy. I fail to see how his
abuses are somehow worse than the South winning the war.
|4.29.08 @ 4:26PM|#
"The Cherokee in Georgia were, in essance, trying to establish
an extra-legal, independant state within the boundries of other
States. A modern description of the type of state they were
attempting to creat would be called Socialist, at the kindest,
today. And, they did indeed raid farms around them too."
Every Indian nation in the country operates under exactly the same
pretense. The Cherokees were doing nothing that Indian nations
don't do today. The Cherokee case is the seminal case in Indian
law. Even though Jackson never enforced it, it is still the legal
regime today.
|4.29.08 @ 4:29PM|#
Guy,
The entire pretense of Indian law is that of duel sovereignty and a
nation within a nation. It went all the way back to the docrine of
discovery. The native nations retained their sovereignty and
basically became protectorates of the "discovering nation". There
was nothing revolutionary about the Cherokee's position. You are
dead wrong to believe that they were trying to do something out of
the ordinary or not within their legal rights as a sovereign
nation, which they were and still are in Oklahoma.
Guy Montag|4.29.08 @ 4:29PM|#
John,
Just because 'Ol Hickory was one of the the last to resist
Socialism, before it had a name even, does not make him wrong. It
makes hime even more underrated.
F.T.F.Y. Gore|4.29.08 @ 5:43PM|#
I took the initiative in creating the winnability of threads. Ryan O'Neal's fruitless pumping at Ali McGraw's barren insides was based on it.
Posner|4.29.08 @ 5:55PM|#
I agree that given what he actually did, Reagan was overrated, but on the bright side, he had some great quotes about small government. Shame it was doublespeak.
lunchstealer|4.29.08 @ 6:06PM|#
George W. Bush will be seen as the worst President ever AND
the most over-rated, on the grounds that "worst ever" is still not
sufficiently harsh.
If nothing else, he's made us look back and think "Maybe LBJ wasn't
so bad after all."
Also, I'm kinda starting to think that Nixon is overrated. I'm
unimpressed with the revisionism that's surrounded him since his
death.
|4.29.08 @ 6:57PM|#
Also, I'm kinda starting to think that Nixon is overrated.
I'm unimpressed with the revisionism that's surrounded him since
his death.
America does that with all of our Presidents. I wish we'd grow up
and admit "Hey, we Americans elected some real chowderheads to
president. Some were venal crooks, and some were downright evil."
Monarchies don't have this problem because by denigrating their
past rulers they don't have to denigrate themselves or their
ancestors.
Some
examples.
NoStar|4.29.08 @ 7:12PM|#
Andy Jackson kept the central bankers from taking over the
currency, buying the country 77 years of economic freedom until in
1913, Congress abdicated its responsibilities and set us down the
path of restricting gold ownership and over-reliance on credit for
both government and citizens.
He may have been wrong on many fronts, but he was right on that
one.
NoStar|4.29.08 @ 7:23PM|#
Oh, bullshit.
J sub D,
Do you forget that Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation didn't occur
til half war through the war? The south had other grievances like
excise taxes that were low for the raw materials imported by the
north, but high on farm machinery imported by the south. This
unfair tax structure made it more difficult for the south to end
slavery on its own through modernization and mechanization.
But as the winners get to write the history, your view is the
politically correct one.
jimmy|4.29.08 @ 8:04PM|#
most overrated by far...woodrow wilson. racist hack disguised as
a mild-mannered academic, got us into the worst and most stupid war
in our history, his messianic
internationalism-for-the-sake-of-internationalism was only
temporarily blunted but has served as the model for everyone right
up to GWB, initiated the original red scare, espionage and sedition
acts of 1917/18, and palmer raids (which make our current state of
affairs look like a frickin picnic), plus let us not forget he
presided over the ratification of the 16th A plus the creation of
the fed.
andrew jackson only gets the runner-up prize, for most evil man to
ever occupy the white house.
|4.29.08 @ 8:25PM|#
How is John F Kennedy NOT on this list?
Escalated Vietnam
Allowed the Soviets to wall off E Berlin in violation of
treaty
Bay of Pigs Invasion
Escalated pointless, expensive Space Race
OK, he handled the Cuban Missile Crisis competently, though there's
dispute about that even. I have a feeling if he'd died of old age
he wouldn't be nearly as revered as he is.
|4.29.08 @ 8:28PM|#
If Abe were President, this thread would be "required reading"
through both North and South.
(Right on!)
|4.29.08 @ 8:35PM|#
I forgot to say... after Abe was rated best President in the history of western civilization. Otherwise, Reasonoids would all be in jail now.
|4.29.08 @ 8:45PM|#
But I've got to go with Jackson, our genocidiest president.
He will be overrated until his name is spoken in the same breath as
Benedict Arnold and Charles Manson.
I vote with Joe on this one. I read the Marshall trilogy of the
Supreme Court, which I believe was influence by a guy named Samuel
von Pufendorf, that gave indians autonomy. I then learned how
Jackson ignored the Supreme Court and evicted the Cherokee out of
Georgia on the Trail of Tears where many died.
For that, he is A tool and should be removed from our currency.
|4.29.08 @ 8:49PM|#
Guy Montag loves freedom so much that he wants the government to stick a gun if your face if you decide to share too much with your community.
|4.29.08 @ 10:24PM|#
I think if you correct for different times, different places,
Jackson isn't quite so bad. (And if you're not putting slaveholders
Washington, Jefferson, etc. on the overrated list, you're already
correcting for DTDP)
Besides, I'm not convinced his reputation is that high right now.
JFK all the way for most overrated.
|4.30.08 @ 1:49AM|#
JFK definately over-rated. Sure he made a great speech but the
best thing he managed in his presidency was somehow avoiding
destroying the world and getting assassinated.
FDR - that's a bit harsh to suggest over-rated. Sure he dropped the
ball on Stalin a bit but he managed to keep Britain in the war
notwithstanding congress and turned the US into a world economic
and military power.
Is George HW Bush that overrated? I have never really thought of
him as rated at all. Sure he managed a quick war against Saddam
quite successfully but as a one term wonder I have never regarded
him as rated.
VM|4.30.08 @ 7:52AM|#
snorts as Nostar's post. d00d - that bullshit about the gold
standard.
oh fuckit. never mind.
GPT: no it's not harsh. war on crime. Japanese-American policies.
those two. right there
|4.30.08 @ 9:20AM|#
...share too much of someone else's, etc. etc.
Nope. Read what he wrote. He was justifiying the use of force to
drive out the Cherokee because they held THEIR OWN lands in
common.
|4.30.08 @ 10:10AM|#
Overrated: FDR. FDR was a testament to the idea that people like activist presidents, even when they make things worse. His constant fiddling with the economy frightened away anybody with capital, prolonging the depression. His brain trust, taking their cues from Stalin's Russia, tried to create a command-and-control economy.
Hat Pines|4.30.08 @ 11:43AM|#
George W. Bush will be seen as the worst President ever AND
the most over-rated, on the grounds that "worst ever" is still not
sufficiently harsh.
I doubt that.
Lincoln did a lot more damage than Bush can ever hope to.
The war in Iraq pales in comparison to World War I, nevermind the
War of Northern Aggression.
Hat Pines|4.30.08 @ 11:45AM|#
I then learned how Jackson ignored the Supreme Court and
evicted the Cherokee out of Georgia on the Trail of Tears where
many died.
With presidents like Jackson and Lincoln and Wilson and the
Roosevelts, I find it hard to believe that anyone outside the far
left would consider George W. Bush to be the worst president
ever.
|4.30.08 @ 10:58PM|#
Ronald Reagan is massively overrated. Average president at best. Deified by the right to the point that we need to suspend the first commandment.
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