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I Just Love Taxes!
Behold, the fruits of a decade of semi-annual tax cuts and around 22 years of swiss-cheesing the tax code. A ten-point majority of Americans say their taxes are too high, slightly more than believed that two years ago. But:
For all of the public's current dissatisfaction with the economy, with the direction of the United States, and with its leadership, Americans are fairly content with their federal tax obligation. According to Gallup's 2008 Economy and Personal Finance survey, conducted in April, 60% regard the amount of income tax they have to pay this year as "fair." Only 35% say it's not fair.
Additionally, more Americans believe "middle-income people"—a group most people are likely to associate themselves with—pay their "fair share" in federal taxes rather than "too much." By contrast, 51% believe lower-income Americans pay too much, while 63% believe upper-income people pay too little.
It's like I wrote back in March: The salience of the tax issue at the federal level is slumping. Americans are still irritated by taxes at the state level, but less so: You can finesse their frustration by making payment simpler and persuading them that their services are worth the cost. If this doesn't grant a mandate for Democrats to seize power and rates rates, it doesn't promise much political benefit for anti-tax Republicans, either. Not in the short term.
|4.15.08 @ 1:17PM|#
They should survey people with
"Agree or disagree: I am not paying ENOUGH in taxes."
Naga Sadow|4.15.08 @ 1:19PM|#
I pay very little federal tax and I still say I am paying to
much!
*Shakes fist in direction of Washington*
|4.15.08 @ 1:20PM|#
Income taxes aren't so bad in Florida (no state or municipal taxes). Living in NYC was brutal. My "rebate" check from the Federal government will go straight to the governments of NYC and New York State.
Jozef|4.15.08 @ 1:21PM|#
Too bad that...
1. The question wasn't framed as "Do you approve how your tax money
is being used", and
2. Other taxes weren't taken into account. I'm wondering how many
people would consider their taxes fair if they realized how much
various governments tax them for a gallon of gas.
As for me, I'd consider my tax burden to be fair only if I approved
of how my money was spent.
Christopher Monnier|4.15.08 @ 1:21PM|#
I think the survey's a little misleading. A lot of people probably interpret the question of fairness as relative to other people in society. I believe that taxes in general are way too high, yet I could see myself agreeing that my level of taxation is fair. In other words, it wouldn't be fair, per se, for me to pay low taxes if everyone else still had to pay high taxes.
|4.15.08 @ 1:23PM|#
I hate taxes but...
Married, filing jointly, $70 income, wife in school, after stimulus
my total federal tax will be $400.
I really can't complain about that (though I probably still
will).
|4.15.08 @ 1:24PM|#
People dislike state taxes more than Federal taxes because the
burden is distributed more evenly across the population. 1 in 5
citizens pay 80% of income taxes and payroll taxes are marketed as
a pension plan, so the average middle class person has little
reason to view Federal taxes as onerous.
I think that historically, the negative reaction to taxes has
sprung more from the speed of change in tax levels rather than from
the absolute level of taxation itself. The tax revolts the 80's
arose following rapid increases in notional and actual tax rates
due not only to the rapid expansion of government but also
inflation.
People adapt to tax rates given time. Even a large bill doesn't
seem so bad if you have time to plan for it. It's the sudden and
unexpected jumps that really tick people off.
|4.15.08 @ 1:28PM|#
Not to mention that deficit spending is just another tax. Cutting taxes while raising deficits is irresponsible fiscal horseshit.
Naga Sadow|4.15.08 @ 1:29PM|#
Tuck I too hate taxes but . . .
I'm a full time college student who bartends full time hours. I'm
taxed as if I'm only making 19,000 a year instead of the 35,000 I
actually make but don't claim. When tax time comes I use my college
status as an excuse for a hand out.
I really can't complain either
|4.15.08 @ 1:32PM|#
My tax bill this year was 30% more than my assistant's gross
salary.
For that, I figure the feds owe me one (1) full-time employee. They
can keep the change.
Neil|4.15.08 @ 1:32PM|#
Don't want more taxes?
Don't vote for Hussein.
If you want less taxes, vote for MCCAIN!
|4.15.08 @ 1:34PM|#
http://www.pollingreport.com/prioriti.htm
Pew Research Center, Feb 20-24:
"Next, please tell me if you think the REPUBLICAN Party or the
DEMOCRATIC Party could do a better job in each of the following
areas. Which party could do a better job of [see below]?"
Republicans 37, Democrats 49
How weird is that?
Neil|4.15.08 @ 1:35PM|#
Hey Joe why dont you ask them if they trust Obama or McCain on taxes? Of course they trust maverick McCain more!
tarran|4.15.08 @ 1:36PM|#
In Massachusetts there is the option to pay a higher percentage
of your income as a tax.
I am curious how many people, if any, check the box.
Elemenope|4.15.08 @ 1:37PM|#
I pay very little federal tax and I still say I am paying to
much!
Says the Sith Lord. [Shakes head.]
Guy Montag|4.15.08 @ 1:38PM|#
Naga,
I am on my way to my balcony to flip them off in person for the
both of us.
Name Witheld|4.15.08 @ 1:38PM|#
I imagine this figure would change if you got rid of witholding.
If a single guy making 40,000 a year had to write a check for
$10,000 (pulling numbers outta the air, I'm guessing they're
approximately correct.) on April 15th rather than being slowly bled
all year, I'd imagine he'd be a little more angry.
Get rid of Witholding! Damn you Mr. Friedman.
Federal Government|4.15.08 @ 1:40PM|#
My tax bill this year was 30% more than my assistant's gross salary.
For that, I figure the feds owe me one (1) full-time employee. They can keep the change.
RC Dean, you got it. Your employee is providing valuable services
to you on the staff of the DEA. We're also thinking of placing
another employee on your payroll. He'll be working on the staff of
something called the Economic Stabilization Commission. His job
will be to align the business decisions you make with those of the
nation's needs - thereby eliminating wasteful duplication and
ruinous competition. I'm sure you will find that his actions also
help your bottom line.
|4.15.08 @ 1:43PM|#
Maybe, Neil. "Maverick" McCain does have a reputation for
breaking with his party's unpopular tax policy. IIRC, he was one of
the only Republicans to break with the party on Bush's tax
cuts.
To bad he had to flip-flop on the issue to win the nomination. Now,
he's either going to be stuck with the less-popular tax policy, or
he'll have to flip-flop again (which is a very mavericky thing to
do, I guess) in order to get back on the winning side.
BTW, have you ever seen nine trillion written out? It looks like
this:
$9,000,000,000,000
Neil|4.15.08 @ 1:46PM|#
And now, Joe, hes proposing a very popular "gas tax
holiday".
I'd like to see BHO oppose that and tell Americans they should pay
more at the pump.
Can't wait until he tells Americans hes going to raise their taxes
and increase the size of government with his socialist programs.
That sure worked well for Mondale and Dukakis LOL.
|4.15.08 @ 1:48PM|#
Sit down sometime and run the numbers on turbo tax for a married couple with three children who make say 70K a year and have maybe 20K in home mortgage interest deduction. You will find that their federal tax liability beyond FICA and medicare is near zero. A lot of people in this country just don't pay much federal income tax. I am not surprised at all that people are not that upset about their tax burden. In contrast run the numbers of turbo tax of a single person who is renting, has no kids and makes say 100K a year. You will find out that guy or girl is being robbed blind by the government. Ironicly, the high earning single person is more likly to be a big Dem and vote for higher taxes and the middle class family of five is more likly to be a Republican and vote for lower taxes. I guess everyone gets what they want.
Bingo|4.15.08 @ 1:49PM|#
My tax bill this year was 30% more than my assistant's gross salary.
For that, I figure the feds owe me one (1) full-time employee. They can keep the change.
But think of all the $600 toilet seats they can buy!
Kolohe|4.15.08 @ 1:49PM|#
Married, filing jointly, $70[k] income, wife in school,
after stimulus my total federal tax will be $400.
I really can't complain about that (though I probably still
will).
Wow, give me a referral to your accountant. I have about the same
income and i'm out 10K. Is dependent and tuition deductability that
significant?
Oh, and change my vote to unfair :).
Guy Montag|4.15.08 @ 1:51PM|#
Yea, but what about the ozone hole and the killer bees? Why aren't we talking about those?
|4.15.08 @ 1:52PM|#
And now, Joe, hes proposing a very popular "gas tax
holiday".
That's an interesting proposal. I could see it helping him, but on
the other hand, Obama need only make the connection to "crumbling
bridges."
Can't wait until he tells Americans hes going to raise their
taxes and increase the size of government with his socialist
programs. Actually, he's been saying throughout the campaign
that he supports rolling back Bush's tax cuts, and only providing
middle class tax relief. It's a very popular stance, according to
all of the polling. Like, for example, the consistent double-digit
lead the Democrats have held on the issue for a couple of years
now.
That sure worked well for Mondale and Dukakis LOL. It's
just adorable the way you think it's still the 80s. So, were you in
a coma last November, or what?
|4.15.08 @ 1:53PM|#
Whoops, two Novembers ago. You know, when the Democrats ran on rolling back Bush's tax cuts an took back both housed of Congress.
Pottsy|4.15.08 @ 1:53PM|#
Funny how McCain thinks the prez can institute a holiday on taxes set at the state level, innit?
|4.15.08 @ 1:53PM|#
I don't think the taxes are all that unfair at the moment. I'm a
married guy and combined we make less than $70k a year.
But I just hate the wasteful spending of our government, both
state-level and federal. Corruption is just too rampant and I'm
tired of it. But, that won't change unless the next president and
Congress introduce sweeping anti-corruption programs and
laws.
I know, wishful thinking.
Naga Sadow|4.15.08 @ 1:54PM|#
Elomenope,
I'm trying to attract private investment for a little thing called
a "Death Star". You may have heard of it. High federal taxes, not
the fact that it will not be completed in the lifetime of the
investors, will scare investors away.
|4.15.08 @ 1:55PM|#
The whole tax system is jury rigged so that the more politically active people in our society - over 30 year old middle and upper middle class educated people - get all sorts of breaks - mortgage deductions, dependent deduction, charitable giving, ability to contribute to 401(K) out of pre-tax income, etc. These "saving" are of course illusory, but all this really goes a long way to taking the sting out of taxes for a lot of key voters. And this is why we will never be able to get a flat tax passed in this country.
|4.15.08 @ 1:56PM|#
"Wow, give me a referral to your accountant. I have about the
same income and i'm out 10K. Is dependent and tuition deductability
that significant?
Oh, and change my vote to unfair :)."
Investment real estate allowed me to write down substantial portion
of income, and tuition discount was massive...
Elemenope|4.15.08 @ 1:58PM|#
I'm trying to attract private investment for a little thing
called a "Death Star". You may have heard of it. High federal
taxes, not the fact that it will not be completed in the lifetime
of the investors, will scare investors away.
LOL. Even the star destroyers bankrupted the Empire.
|4.15.08 @ 1:58PM|#
Vanya,
You are exactly right. It is also set up to squash small business
people. That is why corporate america loves taxes and never shed to
many tears when the Dems take over. Regardless of what party is in
office, they can always carve out breaks and any increase in taxes
is more than made up for by the benefit of squashing
competition.
kinnath|4.15.08 @ 1:59PM|#
I must be extremely wealthy. I paid more in Fed taxes each of the past couple of years than I earned the last year I work full time before going to college (1981). That's after the mortgage deduction.
Emperor|4.15.08 @ 2:04PM|#
What the hell is an aluminum falcon? That thing isn't paid for. You know what this is going to do to my credit?!!
tax slave|4.15.08 @ 2:05PM|#
In contrast run the numbers of turbo tax of a single person
who is renting, has no kids and makes say 100K a year. You will
find out that guy or girl is being robbed blind by the
government.
fuck yeah. this single, renting, childless person making about 50K
a year is sick and tired of bearing everyone else's tax burden.
fuck you all!!
Guy Montag|4.15.08 @ 2:07PM|#
Funny how McCain thinks the prez can institute a holiday on
taxes set at the state level, innit?
If he were talking about State taxes it would be really funny, but
he is talking about the federal one.
|4.15.08 @ 2:07PM|#
Married, filing jointly, $70[k] income, wife in school,
after stimulus my total federal tax will be $400.
I really can't complain about that (though I probably still
will).
Wow, give me a referral to your accountant. I have about the same
income and i'm out 10K. Is dependent and tuition deductability that
significant?
Oh, and change my vote to unfair :).
It's the filing jointly and wife being a student that helps a lot,
I'm sure. $10K in standard deduction, Plus, $2-4K in tax credits
for learning and $600 in stimulus will do quite a bit to slay the
tax man.
Guy Montag|4.15.08 @ 2:09PM|#
Even the star destroyers bankrupted the Empire.
The contractors were damaged the worst.
eg Ryan|4.15.08 @ 2:09PM|#
Now, he's either going to be stuck with the less-popular tax
policy,
Crack was very popular too, doens't mean it was good for a person
to do long term.
|4.15.08 @ 2:11PM|#
Less than ten percent on just over 100K joint earnings. That's fair I guess, it's almost like a tythe. This is the only day of the year I'm glad I had four kids.
Neil|4.15.08 @ 2:12PM|#
And its adorable how you think America is a leftist nation,
Joe.
The Democrat Party won in 2006 because the Republican Party wasn't
Conservative enough, and because the Democrats ran mostly blue dog
Cconservative Democrats who are closer to me than you on
policy.
B. Hussein is NOT a blue dog Democrat.
|4.15.08 @ 2:12PM|#
It's a variation on the "slowly boiled frog" theory, I suspect.
We've become used to be raped by Uncle Sam every April, and so we
rejoice when we get the occasional reach-around.
I wonder how often all those "satisfied" people look at the gross
income amounts on their pay stubs?
The Whine Commonsewer|4.15.08 @ 2:13PM|#
Cutting taxes while raising deficits is irresponsible fiscal
horseshit.
It is a fact of life that the government will spend and spend and
spend and if you really believe that more taxes will result in
balanced budgets I direct your attention to the last 50 years of
deficits.
Never, ever give the government any more than you absolutely have
to. It doesn't matter how much they get it isn't enough and they
will spend more, print more money, and generally piss it all down a
rat hole.
Fluffy|4.15.08 @ 2:14PM|#
I think tax satisfaction probably will correlate pretty well to
the comfort level people have with their disposable income.
If DI starts to pinch, people will start to bitch about taxes
again.
|4.15.08 @ 2:16PM|#
Best thing you could ever do would be to get rid of withholding. Make people write a check out of their pocket for taxes. If we ever did that, I suspect every politician in Washington would be singing the praises of low taxes or be hanging from a lamppost somewhere. The government gets away with robbing us of so much because it is sneaky about doing it and we don't realize or miss the money.
Elemenope|4.15.08 @ 2:16PM|#
Admiral Ackbar Cereal?!
"Your tongues can't repel flavor of that magnitude!!"
Neil|4.15.08 @ 2:16PM|#
The debt doesnt matter so long as the GDP is growing and it stays a small % of our GDP.
Rhywun|4.15.08 @ 2:22PM|#
fuck yeah. this single, renting, childless person making
about 50K a year is sick and tired of bearing everyone else's tax
burden.
Amen to that. It's almost like I'm paying several thousand extra
dollars to not have children and a white picket fence.
Well, it's worth it, I guess.
|4.15.08 @ 2:23PM|#
And now, Joe, hes proposing a very popular "gas tax
holiday".
I'd like to see BHO oppose that and tell Americans they should pay
more at the pump.
I'd like to see BHO present a supply and demand graph and show the
American people just what the combination of supply, demand, and
price elasticity tells us about who will reap the greatest gain out
of a gas tax holiday.
Hint: it rhymes with "weevil oil companies."
The Whine Commonsewer|4.15.08 @ 2:24PM|#
Married, filing jointly, $70 income, wife in school, after
stimulus my total federal tax will be $400.
You must have a hell of a mortgage payment. :-)
Guy Montag|4.15.08 @ 2:24PM|#
Ya know, I might not be so bitter if Sen. Obama would promise me an $80,000 credit on a 1970 'Cuda like the credits on those little sissy cars that Pres. Bush is handing out.
The Whine Commonsewer|4.15.08 @ 2:27PM|#
.... it is sneaky about doing it and we don't realize or
miss the money.
Dang Tootin'!
Had a guy worked for me after ten years in the military. Boy was he
shocked to see his net pay. Never realized that there was a diff
between net and gross. He thought the salary I quoted him was the
NET.
Guy Montag|4.15.08 @ 2:27PM|#
Hint: it rhymes with "weevil oil companies."
No, it is spelled States. The gasoline producers make less than
either the feds or the States make per gallon. At the pump, the
shop owners will not make a thing off the gas (just like right now)
but they should see an increase in the other things they sell in
the store.
|4.15.08 @ 2:29PM|#
"The government gets away with robbing us of so much because
it is sneaky about doing it and we don't realize or miss the
money.",/i>
It makes me wonder about why people talk about their before tax
income as if that all theirs.
/I guess the truth is too depressing.
Old Geezer|4.15.08 @ 2:33PM|#
fuck yeah. this single, renting, childless person making
about 50K a year is sick and tired of bearing everyone else's tax
burden.
So sad to see the taxes I paid to give you an education were so
terribly wasted.
Not Moe|4.15.08 @ 2:34PM|#
Married, filing jointly, $70 income, wife in school, after
stimulus my total federal tax will be $400.
I rent, made 70 grand, my wife is in school, my tax was almost
seven grand. I guess I shouldn't have gone to H&R Block.
TallDave|4.15.08 @ 2:35PM|#
By contrast, 51% believe lower-income Americans pay too
much,
That's pretty funny, considering the bottom quartile pay
essentially no income taxes.
Anyways, when Obama wins we'll all enjoy paying more for hope and
change.
What? You're not against hope, are you? Hopophobes!
|4.15.08 @ 2:36PM|#
No, it is spelled States. The gasoline producers make less
than either the feds or the States make per gallon. At the pump,
the shop owners will not make a thing off the gas (just like right
now) but they should see an increase in the other things they sell
in the store.
I agree that your second and third sentences are true. But what is
the argument for your first sentence? Are states going to hike
their taxes to reap the surplus caused by the feds holidaying
theirs?
Guy Montag|4.15.08 @ 2:37PM|#
Had a guy worked for me after ten years in the military. Boy
was he shocked to see his net pay. Never realized that there was a
diff between net and gross. He thought the salary I quoted him was
the NET.
Did he think that all meals, workout time and newspaper reading
time were paid activities too? I have worked with quite a few like
that. "I got here at 0600! Where were you?" Well, I ate breakfast,
watched the news and looked at the paper before I came in and I
don't bill that time to my customer.
JLE|4.15.08 @ 2:38PM|#
I wonder if RC Dean realizes that only means the assistant is not being paid decently. Hello, inequity.
Guy Montag|4.15.08 @ 2:40PM|#
MikeP,
No, when the federal tax is reduced people will probably drive more
and the States will realize greater revenue through increased
amounts of fuel sold at their current, unconcionable, tax
rates.
TallDave|4.15.08 @ 2:41PM|#
Married, filing jointly, $70 income, wife in school, after
stimulus my total federal tax will be $400.
Yeah, if you buy a house and max out your IRA/401k it's surprising
how little you can pay on a decent income.
One oft-overlooked advantage of rising income disparity is that it
also means the very rich pay an increasingly larger share of taxes,
even if their rates decline. After Bush's "tax cuts for the rich"
the rich actually pay a larger share of total taxes then before --
and a lot of lower-income people end up pay no taxes at all.
|4.15.08 @ 2:45PM|#
If every one had to write the check each year you'd see a change of opinion.Withholding makes it painless and then many look forward to a refund.Why anyone would be happy about over paying[by average of 1700 dollars]I don't know.Well off to send my self employment tax.
Guy Montag|4.15.08 @ 2:45PM|#
TallDave,
Is Sen. Obama asking for change again? That really makes me bitter
when some Harvard lawyer working in DC asks me for change! Why
doesn't he use a little cash sometime and get his own change? Why
does he think I have change anyway? I usually use American Express
or Visa!
|4.15.08 @ 2:47PM|#
No, when the federal tax is reduced people will probably
drive more and the States will realize greater revenue through
increased amounts of fuel sold at their current, unconcionable, tax
rates.
That will follow only if dropping the tax lowers the price at the
pump. I would argue it won't lower that price anywhere close to
half the reduction in tax.
Neither oil pumpers nor gasoline refiners are cost-constrained, and
the market at the pump has already proven it can bear a price that
includes 18 cents of federal tax. Most of any gas tax "holiday"
will go right into oil companies' pockets -- serving as wonderful
campaign fodder for opponents of McCain.
Guy Montag|4.15.08 @ 2:48PM|#
Just realized summin! The bitter, gun toting Church people who have been out of work for 25 years are the ones who will be getting ammo money from the feds in a few weeks.
|4.15.08 @ 2:49PM|#
when the Democrats ran on rolling back Bush's tax cuts an
took back both housed of Congress.
joe, I thought they ran on rolling back Bush's Iraq War?
Guy Montag|4.15.08 @ 2:50PM|#
Yea, right MikeP, just like all cigarettes are the same price
because the cigarette companies just jack up the price from one
place to another? The same way that all the gas prices are the same
where the tax levels are the same?
Neither of those are true and I doubt we will see your prediction
come true either.
Ska|4.15.08 @ 2:54PM|#
Be glad there is withholding - if you think people are fiscally
irresponsible now, imagine if they had their full paychecks to blow
on Gucci boots and other nonsense.
Then, what, the gov't bails them out and the people responsible
enough to pay their taxes make up the rest???
|4.15.08 @ 2:54PM|#
I'm not at all surprised 60% of Americans think their income tax burden is fair, since the bottom 50% of taxpayers pay no or very little income tax.
Guy Montag|4.15.08 @ 2:55PM|#
Just when I thought Sen. McCain was proposing a good idea with
that gas tax thingie he goes trashing CEOs for cutting good
compendation deals.
Knew it was too good to be true.
Happy Tax Payer|4.15.08 @ 2:58PM|#
Kudos for getting out the evidence that the average American is a lot smarter than the average libertarian, not that any was needed.
squarooticus|4.15.08 @ 3:01PM|#
Dr. K. | April 15, 2008, 2:54pm | #
I'm not at all surprised 60% of Americans think their income tax
burden is fair, since the bottom 50% of taxpayers pay no or very
little income tax.
Bingo. Give that man a cigar!
MK2|4.15.08 @ 3:01PM|#
"As for me, I'd consider my tax burden to be fair only if I
approved of how my money was spent." --Jozef
You're a fucking idiot. Go live in a hunter gatherer village
somewhere.
|4.15.08 @ 3:04PM|#
Guy Montag,
I agree that a gas tax cut will in the long run result in
most of the cut going to consumers, due primarily to suppliers
competing for the fresh 18 cent surplus. But a tax "holiday" cannot
change supplier behavior in the short term. The increased demand in
any lowering of prices will simply raise the price of gasoline at
the refinery or the price of oil at the wellhead. The supply is
short-run constrained: The surplus simply can't all go to the
consumer.
|4.15.08 @ 3:05PM|#
Everybody loves democracy when it's fucking over the other
guy.
You want democracy? Itemize my fucking tax bill I'll I only pay for
what I think is a necessary function of government.
anon|4.15.08 @ 3:06PM|#
I don't complain about my tax burden because I basically cheat the shit out of it. I have a moral obligation not to give Bu$hMcChimplerAntiChrist one red cent.
|4.15.08 @ 3:07PM|#
MK2,
I think it's amazing medical feat that someone taught a seeping
cunt to type with its labia, but even the neatest tricks get old
after you see them enough.
|4.15.08 @ 3:08PM|#
People are happy to get a return because so many of them
couldn't save a dollar if Uncle Sam didn't put it in a piggy bank
for them. And that's the same reason most people don't want to
write up one check on April 15th: there'd be a month-long recession
every year. A government by, of, and for the people just might be
made up of a bunch of people who can't control themselves with
their own money, much less everyone else's.
/cynical truth
Fluffy|4.15.08 @ 3:09PM|#
MK2,
Actually, your objection is idiotic.
If everyone's tax burden stayed exactly where it is now, but all
government spending was eliminated and all that tax money was
redirected to providing big piles of ostrich feathers for Dick
Cheney to roll around in, that would in fact constitute a material
reason to consider the tax burden "unfair".
If it is true at the extremes that the use of tax money can impact
whether the tax burden is fair, it's true all throughout the curve
of possible uses.
|4.15.08 @ 3:15PM|#
"Withholding makes it painless and then many look forward to a
refund."
Many people are very happy to have the government take care of them
in this way. They say they would not have the self-discipline to
save their money on a monthly basis. The only time they ever get an
extra chunk of money is at tax refund time.
|4.15.08 @ 3:22PM|#
The tax tables/rates are becoming more and more irrelevant ...
there are so many deductions-loopholes-inequities-bullshit that it
takes an accounting wizard to figure it out. In any case,
irrelevant not due to the fact that taxes are so low or painless to
anyone. Instead, it is due to the fact that "starving the beast"
has been proven wrong - we will NEVER get smaller government just
by cutting taxes. Lower taxes will put more money into your pocket.
Good thing. You will spend more money, creating jobs and lifting
the economy. Good thing. This will in turn broaden the tax base and
create more revenue. Bad thing.
They will tax, borrow, mortgage against anything in order to spend,
spend and spend some more. The new battle cry should be " No
spending without representation".
tax slave|4.15.08 @ 3:23PM|#
The only time they ever get an extra chunk of
money is at tax refund time.
... an extra chunk of their money returned to them without interest
that the Feds held on to for over a year and actually already spent
...
|4.15.08 @ 3:32PM|#
"... an extra chunk of their money returned to them without
interest that the Feds held on to for over a year and actually
already spent ..."
Yes, yes, yes, I *know* that. But either most people do NOT know
it, or they figure it doesn't matter, because if they were allowed
the larger paychecks the poor silly things would just spend it all
anyway.
I'm serious. They are people who think Social Security is great
because they think it means they don't have to bother planning for
their own retirements.
I'm happy when my tax refund is close to zero. Most (and I am
saying MOST) people I know don't understand that. They are happy to
get a big fat extra check in April and the math behind it makes no
difference to them whatsoever.
tax slave|4.15.08 @ 3:36PM|#
They are happy to get a big fat extra check in April and the
math behind it makes no difference to them whatsoever.
yep, the mind boggles. which is why we need to get rid of
withholding. until people feel the pain in the pocketbook at tax
time they won't get pissed off enough to do anything about
it.
which is why it will never happen. the Feds can't very easily fight
off an armed rebellion here at home with all our troops otherwise
occupied in the Middle East.
|4.15.08 @ 3:39PM|#
Careful about the IRA/401 account. Sounds too good to be true, right? Defer the taxes 'til after you retire ? My wife and I did that, only to find inflation caused our retirement to be way higher than the modest income I was making 30 years ago. Guess what ? Now my tax liability is much higher than it would have been had I paid the taxes 30 years ago. If it sounds too good to be true....
|4.15.08 @ 3:43PM|#
Tax slave, I completely agree with you, but we are sadly
outnumbered my friend.
If the federal government got rid of tax withholding, most
Americans would beg to have it back.. It is the closest thing they
have to a "savings plan."
For all the bitching about the government we do, remember that the
majority of Americans are getting exactly what they want. This
simply isn't a country full of libertarians.
|4.15.08 @ 3:45PM|#
Jimmy Smith, you make a great point. I am concerned not just about the effects of inflation, but also about the possibility that the government may be taxing at a higher rate in the future. Thank gawd for the Roth.
|4.15.08 @ 3:49PM|#
By contrast, 51% believe lower-income Americans pay too
much,
That's pretty funny, considering the bottom quartile pay
essentially no income taxes.
It's amazing how many conservative morons think that SS and
Medicare don't count as taxes. When people are asked these
questions, they likely don't think, "Well, the federal tax
withholding is only about 10% of my gross income, but the SS and
Medicare portion is 6.2%, so it's cool."
If you look at these graphs from
the Tax Foundation (hardly a leftist organization), you'll see that
total taxes are only slightly progressive if you exclude the bottom
quintile. This doesn't even take into account the recent tax cuts
since 2004, which should flatten these numbers out even more.
Fluffy|4.15.08 @ 3:54PM|#
Well, Mo, that's all well and good, but absolutely irrelevant to
the question of the income tax.
If you don't pay any income tax, you cannot possibly validly answer
"Yes" to the question, "Do you pay too much income tax?"
The fact that you may make large Medicare and SS tax payments is
not relevant to this specific question.
MK2|4.15.08 @ 3:54PM|#
Yeah, people are always fucking around with things and trying to make them work better. That's how governments got started, but regulating the economy and collecting taxes isn't the worst of it. Human beings won't let nature take its course in health matters either. Doctors are contantly intervening, trying to cure cancer and shit. The ancient Egyptians even altered the course of the nile to irrigate their crops, the interventionist fuckers, and we haven't seen the last of that statist project. Capitalism is a perfect system on its own and will function best without any human intervention whatsovever. Why can't people see that? Why isn't Ron Paul the repoublican nominee? Where are the answers?
Kolohe|4.15.08 @ 3:56PM|#
to echo jimmy smith, my biggest worry is that in thirty years those with roth ira's will be seen as getting 'tax-free windfalls' when they start withdrawing.
|4.15.08 @ 4:02PM|#
If everyone's tax burden stayed exactly where it is now, but
all government spending was eliminated and all that tax money was
redirected to providing big piles of ostrich feathers for Dick
Cheney to roll around in, that would in fact constitute a material
reason to consider the tax burden "unfair".
Wait!! Sign me up! But only if he's been tarred first!!
tax slave|4.15.08 @ 4:04PM|#
This simply isn't a country full of libertarians.
that's for sure... reminds me of when I was handing out LP
literature in front of the post office on April 15 many years
back...
more than once someone would scold me for daring to object to
taxation... "well I LIKE to pay my taxes because I LIKE my roads
and schools!!!!"
|4.15.08 @ 4:07PM|#
They always bring up roads, don't they? We could slash taxes by
90% and still have plenty of money for roads.
I've just been reminding the gentle liberals I work with that they
are funding the war. Every dollar they spend gets another
19-year-old that much closer to getting both of his legs blown
off.
Happy Tax Day, fuckers.
|4.15.08 @ 4:12PM|#
"my biggest worry is that in thirty years those with roth ira's
will be seen as getting 'tax-free windfalls' when they start
withdrawing"
And it won't do any good to point out that you already paid taxes
on that money. You paid taxes back when they were "only" 35%, and
now they're up to 60%. You can bet that if the government decided
to tax you for the difference, no one would care, because you would
be "one of the rich people who deserve to pay more."
The Whine Commonsewer|4.15.08 @ 4:14PM|#
Be glad there is withholding
Withholding was invented for guys like my grandfather. He never,
ever paid his taxes and when the IRS guys would come calling he'd
tell them sorry boys, if I had some money I'd give it to
you.
Fluffy|4.15.08 @ 4:15PM|#
MK2,
Your analogy only has merit if knowledge about the economy is
accessible in the same way that knowledge about the human body is
and can be acquired using the same sorts of diagnostic tools.
The work of Hayek among others pretty persuasively demonstrated
that it's not. You can't possibly acquire more knowledge about the
economic situation faced by millions of disparate individuals than
those individuals possess themselves. This makes "tinkering" of the
sort performed by a doctor problematic.
The metaphor is also only valid if a national economy is like a
body, and is composed of some parts that are tissue and other parts
that are disease that must be destroyed. This is problematic
because the "parts" of the national economy are the individual
citizens, and I am hesitant to allow Doctor/King MK2 to start
declaring individual citizens "cancers" to be expunged unless they
engage in dire criminal acts.
Naga Sadow|4.15.08 @ 4:19PM|#
All this talk of fairness reminds me of my business philosophy class. When I asked the professor about the relevance of a business philosophy class that basically did not take into account Adam Smith, Ludwig Von Mises, or Milton Friedman he glared at me. Then he told me that when I have my degree I could decide what was relevant to teach in my class.
The Whine Commonsewer|4.15.08 @ 4:19PM|#
They always bring up roads, don't they?
Roads? Where we're going we don't need any roads!
Sugar, you is so right. Everything that small government old time
conservative types think the government ought to provide is funded
through local taxes (property tax, sales tax), not federal income
taxes.
Cops
Roads
Libraries
Courthouses
Fire Stations
Public Schools
Okay, I'll give you Interstate Highways which are funded by gas
taxes, fed and state.
Quick, somebody gimme a list of what we get for our federal income
tax.
|4.15.08 @ 4:21PM|#
"They always bring up roads, don't they?"
So true! They always bring up something your state and local taxes
pay for as a way to justify the size of the *federal* government.
Why not justify the federal government's abuses because I like the
things my condo association dues pay for. Makes about the same
amount of sense.
tax slave|4.15.08 @ 4:22PM|#
Quick, somebody gimme a list of what we get for our federal
income tax.
Afghanistan
Iraq
Israel
Saudi Arabia
etc...
robc|4.15.08 @ 4:22PM|#
Pirate Jo,
Re: Witholding as savings plan
Whats the difference between buying an extra 6-pack every two weeks
and throwing a big bash in early May (when I figure the refund
arrives - if you are going to use the IRS as a savings plan, I
figure you arent filing in February either)?
If you spend extra money you have, how does having the IRS "save"
it for you help any? Dont these people just "blow" their
refund?
|4.15.08 @ 4:29PM|#
"If you spend extra money you have, how does having the IRS
"save" it for you help any? Dont these people just "blow" their
refund?"
robc, I don't disagree with you in the least! Most of the people I
know use it to pay down the balance on their credit cards and don't
even realize the irony. It's really dumb, but that's just the way
people think. They like getting that big check at tax time, and if
anything they seem glad to let the government earn interest on it
all year.
|4.15.08 @ 5:38PM|#
Quick, somebody gimme a list of what we get for our federal
income tax.
War. Food stamps. Some other stuff I forget.
|4.15.08 @ 5:43PM|#
I wonder if RC Dean realizes that only means the assistant
is not being paid decently. Hello, inequity.
My assistant moved 120 miles to take this job and gets paid at the
top of salary band for her position.
She finds the pay adequate, the working conditions quite good, and
her boss pretty congenial, most days.
Gilbert Martin|4.15.08 @ 5:57PM|#
"It's amazing how many conservative morons think that SS and
Medicare don't count as taxes."
It's amazing how may liberal morons think they can get away with
conflating FICA payments with the income tax whenever someone
points out that the bottom 50% of income earners pay virtually no
income tax.
No one gets any "entitlement" payments back in return in exchange
for income tax payments - unlike FICA payments.
And the people trying to conflate the two always "forget" to
mention that those SS benefit payment formulas are also highly
"progressive" in that those on the lower income end of the scale
get back proportionally more in benefits relative to what they have
paid in that is the case for those on the high end of the income
scale.
Fair Tax|4.15.08 @ 6:04PM|#
Support the FairTax and eliminate Federal Income, Social Security, and Medicare taxes!!!!!!
TallDave|4.15.08 @ 6:20PM|#
Along with moving tax day to election day, they should make
withholding illegal.
If you had to write the gov't a check every month, you'd be
pissed.
Guy Montag,
Don't worry, after you cling to your Sig Saueur a while the pain
goes away. And if that doesn't work, you can go to church, or if
all else fails, curse at a minority.
robc|4.15.08 @ 6:21PM|#
No one gets any "entitlement" payments back in return in exchange
for income tax payments - unlike FICA payments.
No one gets any entitlement payments back in return for FICA
payments either. The FICA tax and SS payments are completely
unrelated entities. The SCOTUS has even said so.
FICA is just another income tax. It is not a payment into any
particular program, no matter how much they lie and say it is.
TTT|4.15.08 @ 7:31PM|#
It's really dumb, but that's just the way people think. They
like getting that big check at tax time, and if anything they seem
glad to let the government earn interest on it all year.
I have to disagree since I am one of those people getting a large
return this year.
1. Exactly how much interest are you earning? Savings accounts are
only paying 1%. Assumining I had the money the entire year, we are
talking less the $50 per year or a $1 per week. Not worth the
effort.
2. You do not mention the risk. There is a huge penalty which will
wipe out all of the interest you earn if you underpay your taxes.
There is a real possiblity of that since my income varies from year
to year. A dollar a week is not worth the risk.
3. Human Nature. Mental accounting, referencing and prospect theory
are part of human nature. I am happier getting a big check from the
government then I am when I have to write a big check to them. It
is worth the measly $1 per week it costs me.
Guy Montag|4.15.08 @ 8:15PM|#
Don't worry, after you cling to your Sig Saueur a while the
pain goes away. And if that doesn't work, you can go to church, or
if all else fails, curse at a minority.
But all I have is a Saiga and a Benelli!
Guy Montag|4.15.08 @ 8:20PM|#
The income tax list:
Federal income taxes pay for Defense (the Union Army, Navy and
others, plus the National Guard, ohter than State missiones),
federal emergency relief (to include some National Guard Stare
missions), the federal court system, federal law enforcement
including Homeland Security (includes Coast Guard), all those
national parks, the federal court system, the federal jail system
and a bunch of other stuff that I can't remember right now. BTW,
everything I can not tell you about is in this list :)
|4.15.08 @ 8:22PM|#
I make about 150k and paid 13k in US income taxes. I honestly
think that is something I could live with. What bothers me is the
margainal rate is so high that any extra money I make above this in
the future will be taxed at a much higher rate. Since the child
credits and exemeptions phase out at about what I am making now,
the real marganal rate is even higher then my tax bracket.
I would support a flat tax even if it caused me to pay a little
more now, just to know that if I ever really make it big then I
won't get screwed.
|4.15.08 @ 8:27PM|#
I, too, worry about the feds changing the rules after I'm
retired and confiscating a big chunk of my Roth or an extra chunk
of my 401K.
I was on the floor of the Democratic National Convention in 1996
when Jesse Jackson called for 5% of all money in all pension funds,
public and private, to be seized and spent on
"infrastructure."
No one batted an eye. Well, except for me.
http://www.inmotionmagazine.com/jjdem.html
I still skrimp like mad so I can contribute the max 401K plus Roth
contributions every year, but I sometimes wonder if I'm being too
smart by half.
|4.15.08 @ 8:51PM|#
"Exactly how much interest are you earning? Savings accounts are
only paying 1%. Assumining I had the money the entire year, we are
talking less the $50 per year or a $1 per week. Not worth the
effort."
Well, for that matter, why bother saving at all? Might as well
spend it and live in the moment. If you end up poor in your old
age, just go on the dole and figure you are getting some of your
taxes back. There's your investment.
TTT|4.15.08 @ 9:19PM|#
Well, for that matter, why bother saving at all? Might as
well spend it and live in the moment. If you end up poor in your
old age, just go on the dole and figure you are getting some of
your taxes back.
Where did that come from? I was pointing out that extra you get
from micromanaging your witholdings to minimize the refund check is
not worth the trouble. If you want to waste the time and effort
caclulating the witholdings down to the penny and risk a penalty if
you miscalculate, knock yourself out. I do not think the gain is
worth the risk.
MK2|4.15.08 @ 9:32PM|#
Fluffy,
I'm being fucking serious here. Why should we screw around with the
economy? Once--I can't remember exactly when--the economy was
completely unregulated, and it worked just fine. Everybody was rich
and happy. So we know it works on its own. Things got all fucked up
when the state came along and started collecting taxes. We need to
go back to that time when the economy was free of human
intervention. It's not as though we don't know if it will work. Ask
the Goths. I think it was the Goths. God, people are just so stupid
about thinking we need to do anything at all about the economy but
sit back and watch it hum along. They sure as hell don't know
anything about history. I'll bet they never talk about the Goths in
state-run public schools.
Daniel Reeves|4.15.08 @ 9:38PM|#
From the original post:
By contrast, 51% believe lower-income Americans pay too much, while 63% believe upper-income people pay too little.
Somebody should set up an experiment: one control group is simply
asked their opinion on who is paying their fair share in the tax
system, and another control group is given the facts about the
effective tax rate before they make their opinion.
MK2|4.15.08 @ 9:39PM|#
Here it is!
To his enemies the Gothic king Tautaikis was austerely cruel, but
to his faithful subjects he was merciful and just. In cases where
the crops failed, he absolved the farmers from the government
taxes. If he discovered that some official wronged somebody, then
he severely punished that official. Tautarikis even encouraged the
people to come directly to him with their complaints. Therefore
Roman citizens highly esteemed their "barbarian" king.
mk2|4.15.08 @ 9:44PM|#
We don't even have to go back all the way to the Goths!
"Before Amerika subdued the indigenous people, everything they [the
Indians] needed to survive was here, given by Creator to all who
respected creation and tried to live in harmony with their
relations! Food, clothing, and shelter came from the Buffalo for
the people of the plains. They did not owe a bank, THEY HAD NO
TAXES TO PAY, they had no landlords, they had no jobs. They spent
their lives with family and friends everyday. How about that for
"family values" George Bush? They hunted, fished, hiked, made
crafts and, sung songs, danced, ran, walked, shot bows and arrows
and GUNS, (after the wasicu came along),went swimming, held
religious ceremonies, and told stories."
MK2|4.15.08 @ 9:52PM|#
Oh, boy was Hayek right about the welfare state leading to serfdom, Pitty the poor Swedes, chained to the land by a oppressive government. There isn't an enslaved Swede who wouldn't gladly trade places with the poorest, homeless, but glorious free, American! Ah, and the taxes they pay! You can keep your Volvo, you poor bastard. I'll take my Ford and my liberty any day!
Fluffy|4.15.08 @ 10:14PM|#
Actually, MK2, the Roman Republic had very little in the way of
direct taxes for citizens - after the first Punic War and for some
time thereafter only the provinces were taxed.
Rome ceased to be a dynamic society when taxation rose following
the reign of the Antonines, and became extremely brittle as state
micromanagement of economic and social life grew beginning with the
reign of Diocletian. It was eventually destroyed by more dynamic
groups like [as one example] the Goths.
By the way, if taxes were the guy to human advancement, one problem
with your cite is that it talks about remission of taxes.
Only taxes that actually exist can be remitted. Since Tautaikis had
taxes to remit, why didn't the milieu he lived in instantly turn
into Sweden?
Daniel Reeves|4.15.08 @ 10:14PM|#
A government by, of, and for the people just might be made up of a bunch of people who can't control themselves with their own money, much less everyone else's.
I had typed up a whole paragraph that started with
"Congratulations, joe!" I reread my paragraph and became
suspicious. Using ctrl+f, I discovered that I am dyslexic. Sorry,
"jon."
MK2|4.15.08 @ 10:22PM|#
Fluffy,
Yes, you're right! The Roman Republic before the first Punic war
should be our model. Libertarians have some educational work to do.
Also--I'm sure I'm right about this--the time before the first
Punic war was way before the Romans started feeding Christians to
the lions. This has to be emphasized (I'm thinking of those whiny
evangelicals).
MK2|4.15.08 @ 10:32PM|#
Since Tautaikis had taxes to remit, why didn't the milieu he
lived in instantly turn into Sweden?
Oh, I'll bet the Swedes could teach that old Gothic king a thing or
two about taxes.
MK2|4.15.08 @ 10:36PM|#
"Rome ceased to be a dynamic society when taxation rose
following the reign of the Antonines"
Your right Fluffy. I've researched this. One Ronulus Paulus opposed
the Antonines and came very close to beating them when it was
discovered that Paulus had published a series of scrolls attacking
dark-skinned peoples who had come under Roman rule. Political
correctness was a problem even then.
MK2|4.15.08 @ 10:41PM|#
Sorry, that should have read that Ronulus Paulus opposed the tax-and-spend liberals who succeded the Antonines. Ironically, he also favored controling the borders to keep the Goths out.
The Wine Commonsewer|4.15.08 @ 10:47PM|#
"Be wary of strong spirits. It can make you shoot at tax collectors ... and miss."-Robert A. Heinlein
MK2|4.15.08 @ 11:20PM|#
Friends and neighbors complain that taxes are indeed very heavy,
and if those laid on by the government were the only ones we had to
pay, we might the more easily discharge them; but we have many
others, and much more grievous to some of us. We are taxed twice as
much by our idleness, three times as much by our pride, and four
times as much by our folly. ~Benjamin Franklin
Franklin might have added "and five times as much by our
simple-minded ideologies."
MK2|4.15.08 @ 11:25PM|#
"I like to pay taxes. With them I buy civilization." -- Oliver Wendell Holmes
|4.15.08 @ 11:39PM|#
OK, well, if you want to cut taxes, you're going to have to cut
the other side of the equation, as well. Or are you going to
continue throwing it on the Chinese credit card and hoping that
they will continue to bail us out?
My vote: cut at least two-thirds of that bloated monstrosity called
"Defense."
May I submit that a lot of the other stuff we sorta need....like
paying the interest on the national debt, social security, etc. If
you want to get rid of the federal court system (and federal laws),
have fun trying to run an economy formed of 50 different entities
with 50 different sets of laws. Social security? First of all, hike
the cap--no reason not to include everyone's income in the target.
Second of all, hike the age at which people are eligible for Soc
Sec. Maybe gracefully segue into it, but definitely hike it back up
to the average life expectancy. If done carefully I bet we could
even cut the rate.
Get that through the yowls of Republicans and then we can talk
about getting rid of federal taxes....
The Wine Commonsewer|4.16.08 @ 12:38AM|#
Hike the Cap! WTF, because more taxes will solve
everything?
Dude! I buy you books and all you do is eat the covers.
|4.16.08 @ 12:48AM|#
If you want to get rid of the federal court system (and
federal laws), have fun trying to run an economy formed of 50
different entities with 50 different sets of laws.
Yeah. That's always the first thing on any libertarian's list of
things to cut from the budget: federal courts and interstate
law.
In case you can't tell, I'm rolling my eyes.
The Wine Commonsewer|4.16.08 @ 12:56AM|#
My eyes are rolling because I'm into my second bottle of wine in celebration of April 15th!
The Wine Commonsewer|4.16.08 @ 12:58AM|#
I like to pay taxes. With them I buy civilization." --
Oliver Wendell Holmes
Yeah except they didn't have income taxes in his day.
"I'm proud to pay taxes in the United States; the only thing is, I
could be just as proud for half the money."-Arthur Godfrey
|4.16.08 @ 1:06AM|#
We are taxed twice as much by our idleness, three times as
much by our pride, and four times as much by our folly.
If Benjamin Franklin were taxed in his day as much as we are now,
he and his friends and neighbors would be in hock for 400% of their
productive capacity.
MK2|4.16.08 @ 1:14AM|#
Ah, if only we could return to Franklin's time. Clocks are so hard to turn back. Our times are so very complicated. The simplicity of libertarianism is what appeals. A child could understand it. Or a moron.
The Wine Commonsewer|4.16.08 @ 1:23AM|#
The simplicity of libertarianism is what appeals. A child
could understand it. Or a moron.
MK2, what a curious thing to say at a, gasp, libertarian website.
Did you think you stumbled into Daily Kos by mistake?
WTF are you doing here? If you think libertarians are morons I
mean?
BTW, since taxes seem to enthrall you, perhaps you won't mind
paying my share?
Oh, and did you include a little extra for the treasury with your
April 15th payment?
LI\'L URKOBOLD™|4.16.08 @ 1:34AM|#
LI'L URKOBOLD™ like a lick libertarianism. But no if MK2 touch it.
Fluffy|4.16.08 @ 8:14AM|#
MK2,
If you attempt to argue from historical example that taxation and
civilization advance in proportion, you have to be prepared to
account for each and every instance in history when that was not
the case. Since that adds up to just about all history, that's a
lot of accounting.
In addition, if you want to present the stone age savages of
preColumbian North America as an example of a society without taxes
which libertarians must account for, you as a statist need to
account for the numerous societies crippled, stunted and mummified
by their taxation schemes and by their systems of state control of
economics. That's what you started out advocating, after all, since
it's "practical tinkering" like that which you claim leads to human
advance. The state is like a doctor, you said. Its ratio of
successful surgeries to failed ones is not very good.
PC|4.16.08 @ 9:09AM|#
According to Gallup's 2008 Economy and Personal Finance survey, conducted in April, 60% regard the amount of income tax they have to pay this year as "fair." Only 35% say it's not fair....In other new Saddam Hussein has won reelection taking in 95% of the vote.
Bronwyn|4.16.08 @ 9:16AM|#
I sent off a big - no, huge - fucking check to the US Treasury
yesterday morning.
You can plant me firmly in the "we pay too much in taxes"
column.
|4.16.08 @ 9:32AM|#
"If you want to waste the time and effort caclulating the
witholdings down to the penny and risk a penalty if you
miscalculate, knock yourself out."
Micromanage? I just claim '1' on my little form and it comes out
about even. If I claimed '0' like a lot of people I could have more
withheld, or even have extra withheld on top of that.
tarran|4.16.08 @ 10:06AM|#
OK,
Taking bets: is mk2 an edward sock-puppet? Or has libertarian-hater
ted decided to grace us with his presence yet again?
My money is on edward: ted's arguments tended to get more coherent
as the debate raged on, while edward usually retreats to childish
insults.
Guy Montag|4.16.08 @ 10:12AM|#
I sent off a big - no, huge - fucking check to the US
Treasury yesterday morning.
Switch to smaller paper!
[ducks]
|4.16.08 @ 10:47AM|#
I don't mind paying taxes. I just want a good ROI (return on
investment). If the government were investing in our
infrastructure, making college more accessible, or allievating
crime, than I'd pay twice as much in taxes.
However, to see them waste it on Iraq and the Bridget to Nowhere
makes me angry that I have to pay a nickel.
It's not how much you pay; it's what you get in return.
Bronwyn|4.16.08 @ 10:55AM|#
*shakes fist at Guy*
I'll get you, my pretty. You and your little dog, too!
|4.16.08 @ 12:56PM|#
Neil,
The debt doesnt matter so long as the GDP is growing and it
stays a small % of our GDP.
GDP is only growing because the FED keeps creating more money! (Out
of thin Air) This insidious tax steals value from every dollar you
own.
Steve
|4.16.08 @ 1:21PM|#
GDP is only growing because the FED keeps creating more
money! (Out of thin Air)
Uh, no. The GDP is growing even when inflation is taken into
account.
It's odd that one so critical of the Fed would think that creating
more money makes GDP grow...
robc|4.16.08 @ 3:25PM|#
"I like to pay taxes. With them I buy civilization." --
Oliver Wendell Holmes
"Everything Oliver Wendell Holmes ever said was wrong." -- robc
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