Links! We Got Links!

But, it's a strange loop with halting conditions. In fact, it's not nearly as weird as the article make it out to be; it just falls under the class of beliefs (small that it is) that make themselves true merely by being believed. That is, self-fulfilling prophecies.

It does not at any time prevent the original belief from being a delusion, because it was indeed delusional at the time the belief was formed; i.e. there was insufficient epistemological warrant on behalf of the fellow to form a rational belief with that content at that time. That it turned out to be true is merely an (un)happy accident.

It only seems paradoxical if we ignore the order of events, particularly the priority of the first event which was forming the paranoid belief that he would be institutionalized.

Cute article, though.

|4.4.08 @ 8:20AM|#

Regarding the "strange loop"...

Isn't that Catch 22?

CB

Elemenope|4.4.08 @ 8:47AM|#

Also found the leftist (really, Socialist) critique of the New Deal to be fairly boilerplate.

One interesting point, however, which the article barely glances off of, is the rapid shift in labor from agriculture to construction (even, "digging ditches", such as it is). It strikes me as accidentally fortuitous, as the rapid industrialization that accompanied the war was perhaps only possible because of that massive labor shift, which was certainly encouraged by New Deal programs like the AAA.

|4.4.08 @ 8:56AM|#

Speaking of stuff Reason has been meaning to blog, I'm surprised there has been no mention of this story all week. Pretty scary stuff.

http://www.sacbee.com/101/story/820599.html

Taktix®|4.4.08 @ 8:57AM|#

It strikes me as accidentally fortuitous, as the rapid industrialization that accompanied the war was perhaps only possible because of that massive labor shift, which was certainly encouraged by New Deal programs like the AAA.

That's only because the IllegalMexicans were not InvadingOurBorders to TakeJobs RegularAmericans won't do.

Or something.

|4.4.08 @ 9:03AM|#

"Jimmy, don't make me have to kill you..."

Elemenope|4.4.08 @ 9:06AM|#

Speaking of stuff Reason has been meaning to blog, I'm surprised there has been no mention of this story all week....

Wow. That's...fucked up, if it is an accurate reflection of the facts.

Taktix® -

LOL.

Episiarch|4.4.08 @ 9:25AM|#

Speaking of stuff Reason has been meaning to blog, I'm surprised there has been no mention of this story all week.

A dude thought teenage cheerleaders are hot. I guess all of us straight guys need to be locked up, because we all thought that at one time or another.

Also, does this mean that any guy over 18 who pauses on one of those cheerleading competitions that they show on TV sometimes can be arrested for child pr0n?

Episiarch|4.4.08 @ 9:28AM|#

Bonus politics-free, prog-free music link:

Is this some sort of crack at Weigel? I'd love to see intra-reason sniping, it would be so entertaining.

Elemenope|4.4.08 @ 9:29AM|#

Remember, kids:

Cheerleading is not pornography, because it's athletic!

Um...

BakedPenguin|4.4.08 @ 9:37AM|#

re - the psychiatric loop. I've thought about the same paradox in regards to the Branch Davidians. They were considered wackos, in part, because they thought the government was out to get them. Well...

Taktix®|4.4.08 @ 9:40AM|#

They were considered wackos, in part, because they thought the government was out to get them.

Fair enough, but in this case, I think it was more of a self-fulfilling prophecy than anything else.

P.S. All fulfilled prophecy has been self-fulfilled. Sorry, fatalists :(

|4.4.08 @ 9:50AM|#

Re: Reagan Revisionism. Seems like I remember some HnR commenter linking you to that skit a few years ago Jesse. Who could it have been???

Re: New Deal. *shudders* The left is even more creepy when they attack their own sacred cows. Seems the problem with the New Deal was, it industrialized agriculture and made money for corporations. So right, and still so very wrong. He's looking right at it and he still thinks "if only we had the 'right' overlord running things".

|4.4.08 @ 9:51AM|#

from the leftist critique:

It seems to me that nostalgia for the New Deal era during the past decade is perhaps the principal barrier to the formation of a true left opposition in the United States.

As a petit bourgeois reactionary, I want to say to Prof. Dunbar-Ortiz:
"Great! When can we get rid of the rest of the New Deal, then? Oh, and this doesn't happen to suggest that you think central planning of the economiy is a bad idea, would it?"

I'd write and put that to her, but I know at best I would just get a response to the effect saying, "If only we had our people planning the economy for the eventual ascendancy of the proletariat in the aftermath of a socialist revolution following the Great Depression, things would have been different. Then we could have truly began to erase the legacy of the military-industrial complex, plutocracy, 'white supremacy, genocide, and imperialism'."

Yes, yes, I know. All of those things do or did produce the evils we endure today. But is usurping private property really going to solve any of that?

|4.4.08 @ 9:59AM|#

Equally, if his belief was true, then he was not deluded (by the standard definition), but this would have made his belief false after all. By the standard definition of delusion, then, his belief, is false, was true and, if true, was false.

This further begs the question: Who cares?

|4.4.08 @ 9:59AM|#

Taktix® ,
I'm glad you agree that the government was just in it's actions. Those Davidian kids deserved to get firebombed. Thankfully the government had enough tanks to kill all of them, or else some of them might still be suffering from the brainwashing and abuse that the Davidians afflicted upon them. The government really does only act out of love for it's subjects.

Elemenope|4.4.08 @ 10:03AM|#

This further begs the question: Who cares?

You don't smile a lot, do you. Hate puppies? Eat carrots instead of chocolate?

Mental masturbation is like other forms of masturbation, in that it is engaged in because it's fucking fun. :)

Jesse Walker|4.4.08 @ 10:08AM|#

Episiarch: No dig at Dave is intended.

Warren: I saw that sketch when it first aired. But if you reminded me of it at some point in the past, I thank you: It always makes me laugh, so I'm sure I got a chuckle out of it when you mentioned it.

BakedPenguin|4.4.08 @ 10:08AM|#

To pile on the New Deal thing - her point about the New Deal getting rid of agricultural employment is just bullshit.

From the census statistical abstract, agriculture provided 21% of the jobs in 1929, and 17% in 1940. This was down from 40% or so in 1900. Linky.

Also, I think there was a self-fulfilling prophesy going on with the Davidians. (Or is it Dravidians? I've seen both.) If they're not so paranoid, they don't get all the guns, and perhaps don't attract interest from ATF agents.

|4.4.08 @ 10:12AM|#

You don't smile a lot, do you. Hate puppies? Eat carrots instead of chocolate?

Mental masturbation is like other forms of masturbation, in that it is engaged in because it's fucking fun. :)

On the contrary. I smile a lot, love puppies, and eat chocolate carrot cake (mmmm), and I mentally masturbate all the time (hoever uncomfortable that is to say). But I wouldn't write a blog entry about that stuff. Mental masturbation is meant to be done in private or in the strictest company.

Episiarch|4.4.08 @ 10:13AM|#

Episiarch: No dig at Dave is intended.

How unfortunate.

I also saw the Reagan clip when it aired. It was funny then and is funny now.

As an aside, I always thought Phil Hartman was overrated until his wife plugged him and he was no longer around to deliver the goods. Watching shittier performers try to fill his shoes made me appreciate him.

If they're not so paranoid, they don't get all the guns, and perhaps don't attract interest from ATF agents.

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean the ATF isn't out to get you.

|4.4.08 @ 10:14AM|#

Dravidians are a group of people speaking similar languages centered on southern India.

Elemenope|4.4.08 @ 10:17AM|#

Mental masturbation is meant to be done in private or in the strictest company.

And so...you post here, why? This ain't nothing but a stroking chamber. :)

Taktix®|4.4.08 @ 10:24AM|#

Cosmopolitan Overlord,

Fuck you for putting words in my mouth.

Reno's actions are a permanent stain on our country's history, but the government's abhorrent actions don't change the fact that David Koresh was nuttier than squirrel shit...

|4.4.08 @ 10:39AM|#

And so...you post here, why? This ain't nothing but a stroking chamber. :)

OH! I thought it was an EGO stroking chamber... ;)

BakedPenguin|4.4.08 @ 10:59AM|#

some fed - thanks, I was aware of that, and wondered if there was some weird connection. (e.g., Koresh thought the Sri Lankans were another lost tribe of Isrealites, etc.)

|4.4.08 @ 11:11AM|#

I'm fairly certain Koresh's group was just referencing the biblical King David. The lost tribe bit that crossed your mind reminds me more of Mormons.

|4.4.08 @ 11:13AM|#

The SacBee comments are pretty special. A lot defend the guy / condemn the police, but some:

are touchingly clueless
Police would not arrest a semi public figure if there was not some credible evidence.

resort to WOD logic
this sort of thing can end up as a "gateway drug" for budding pedophiles

know way too much about the subject
One can probably assume he was using a long telephoto lens and high shutter speeds to shoot closeup crotch shots as they twirled and jumped. Such may not be illegal but his results might fit the technical definition of child porn, depending on how revealing his pictures turned out. That would explain why he was keeping his equipment concealed.

or defends him by posting a link to a cheerleader website (stop being on my side)
http://usacamps.com/photo_albums/AN2008/AN2008.html

and the final word trows in a little anti-liberal paranoia for good measure
the bee always stand up for the rights of every sick bastard to do anything as long as they are on the same side of the idealogical fence as the bee. give this guy a raise and transfer him to covering high school sports, he obviously has a passion for it!

highnumber|4.4.08 @ 11:42AM|#

That Candi Staton track is incredible.
Thanks, Jesse.

Jesse Walker|4.4.08 @ 11:54AM|#

You're welcome. The whole album's terrific, as is her pre-disco work of the late '60s and early '70s. And about half of her Christian stuff.

|4.4.08 @ 11:55AM|#

SugarFree, the "know way too much about the subject" one is hilarious.

Mike Laursen|4.4.08 @ 12:01PM|#

Bonus politics-free, prog-free music link: Candi Staton sings Merle Haggard.

Thanks! That was so much better than Politics 'n' Prog!

Mike Laursen|4.4.08 @ 12:07PM|#

That's only because the IllegalMexicans were not InvadingOurBorders to TakeJobs RegularAmericans won't do.

I don't think that's proper Lonewhacko grammar. Shouldn't it be "...invading OurBorders...". Remember, "When you remove the space, only two may embrace."

GG|4.4.08 @ 12:24PM|#

Here's a link to the Obama Doctrine.

Scoblete concludes while it's preferable to the McCain Doctrine, it's basically neoconservatism "with high-sounding bullshit like 'dignity promotion.'"

Fire up the fiat presses and open your wallets! Pres. Barry's gonna spread democracy and dignity by dropping money bombs all over the planet.

|4.4.08 @ 12:39PM|#

Sheesh, my googling skills are deteriorating to geezer levels. But for the record.

http://www.reason.com/blog/show/106885.html#153766

|4.4.08 @ 1:39PM|#

If only we had our people planning the economy for the eventual ascendancy of the proletariat in the aftermath of a socialist revolution following the Great Depression, things would have been different. Then we could have truly began to erase the legacy of the military-industrial complex, plutocracy, 'white supremacy, genocide, and imperialism'.

Just like in the USSR.

Les|4.4.08 @ 1:42PM|#

That SNL clip is reminder of how much sharper the writing and performances used to be.

I do so miss Mr. Hartman.

Taktix®|4.4.08 @ 2:05PM|#

One can probably assume

Way to disprove your argument in the first four words.

Kudos...

Neu Mejican|4.4.08 @ 2:18PM|#

Way to disprove your argument in the first four words.

Given that today is pedant/cavil day at H&R, I will pose a question...

What is more annoying.
1)A pedant that is correct.
2)A pedant that is incorrect.
3)A cavil
4)A twit

Discuss...

Neu Mejican|4.4.08 @ 2:19PM|#

I should say

Given that we can probably assume that today is pedant/cavil day based on the Obama smokes thread...

Neu Mejican|4.4.08 @ 2:27PM|#

Not so strange loop:

He had tried to kill himself because he was afraid he was going to be "locked up". However, this fear was secondary to a paranoid system at the heart of which was the hypochondriacal delusion that he was "mentally ill".

He is mentally ill.

Evidence, he tried to kill himself because he was afraid that he would be locked up.

Not a delusion: He recognized that he was mentally ill. This means he does not have a hypochondriacal delusion. He has other delusions, however.

Delusion: He thought that his mental illness would inevitably lead to his being locked up and that the system was out to get him.

Delusional fear: Treatment for his mental illness would be worse than death.

|4.4.08 @ 3:20PM|#

Delusion: He thought that his mental illness would inevitably lead to his being locked up and that the system was out to get him.

Since this actually came to pass, how is it delusional, again? People who are mentally ill are locked up all the time, after all.

Delusional fear: Treatment for his mental illness would be worse than death.

This strikes me as an individual value judgment. I can easily imagine "treatments" for mental illness for which suicide was a viable alternative.

Sam Grove|4.4.08 @ 5:06PM|#

The leftist lexicon is really missing something: mercantilism.

Neu Mejican|4.4.08 @ 5:58PM|#

RC Dean,

The key is the "inevitably" part and the thing about the system being out to get him and lock him up.

As for the value judgment, sure, I won't press that too hard. But based on a standard definition of mental illness, suicidal ideation is one of the symptoms that is most likely to get you a diagnosis.

Reason Magazine

Get Reason E-mail Updates!

Site comments/questions:

Media Inquiries and Reprint Permissions:

Editorial & Production Offices:

advertisements