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BREAKING: Gay Teens Feel Awkward, Government Ready to Step In
Time's John Cloud has a smart and daring critique of the effort to use the murder of gay teen Lawrence King to gin up support for the Matthew Shepard Act, which would bolster goverment power to prosecute hate crimes. Cloud's argument against this is taken straight from the data of a group doing some of the loudest lobbying for the law.
[The Gay, Lesbian and Straight Education Network] itself has published a great deal of survey data showing that most gay kids aren't suffering the way King did. Fully 78% of gay and transgender kids say they feel safe at school, according to a 2005 GLSEN report. According to another GLSEN survey released the same year, only 18% of gay and transgender students said they had ever been assaulted because of their sexual orientation (only 12% — probably many of the same kids — said they had been assaulted because of the way they express their gender). And of those who had been harassed or assaulted, more than one-fifth — 22% — said the incident wasn't serious enough to report. When they did report the incidents, the response from school staffs was positive about 70% of the time. That's not enough — it should be 100% — but it belies the dire picture painted by gay groups in the wake of King's killing.
More from those numbers...
True, 66% of gay and transgender kids said they had heard homophobic remarks. But roughly the same proportion — 62% — had heard sexist remarks. Some 16% of gay and transgender kids said they had been harassed because of their sexual orientation, but 18% said they had been harassed because of "the way you look or your body size." (Teachers reported they heard sexist comments more often than homophobic ones, and they also saw more harassment based on appearance and weight than on sexual orientation.) It's difficult to imagine the teenager who has never been painfully teased about something. We forget sometimes that to be a teenager — any teenager — is to learn to cope with the turbid, inchoate bigotries of still-developing minds.
Tingy wah|2.19.08 @ 9:44AM|#
When I was a teenager my bigotries were inchoate but not turbid. I really question the rest of the article now...
Episiarch|2.19.08 @ 9:45AM|#
Teachers reported they heard sexist comments more often than
homophobic ones, and they also saw more harassment based on
appearance and weight than on sexual orientation.
Soon they will be convicted for Weight Crimes.
|2.19.08 @ 9:49AM|#
If one out of five black kids were being assaulted for their race we would have a very serious problem.
|2.19.08 @ 10:06AM|#
Anon a black person can get accused of a hate crime already if he attacks a white person for their race.
lunchstealer|2.19.08 @ 10:14AM|#
I am a straight white man and I've heard racist, sexist, homophobic, anti-intellectual, intellectual elitist, bourgeois disdain for the proletariate, proletarian class resentment, and just about every other kind of harassment known to man thrown about in school. And that's just the stuff that was directed at me.
Episiarch|2.19.08 @ 10:18AM|#
Amazingly, I was once told that kids can be cruel. Now, since most of us have never been a kid it is understandable that we didn't realize that. However, there is no excuse for people like Gary Coleman or Webster.
Fluffy|2.19.08 @ 10:20AM|#
I think there is a tendency to view student behavior through the
prism of adult politics, when it's not that sophisticated.
The purpose of a schoolyard insult is not to communicate any
political content. It's about dominance. Any insult will do and the
content is irrelevant. One kid [or group of kids] wants to
demonstrate to another that they can insult them with impunity
because they are in charge. The actual text of the insult is a
placeholder.
I'm willing to bet that the gay kids getting harassed aren't 6'5"
and bulked out. They probably are obviously weak and isolated and
targets like that won't be passed up by other kids unless those
kids are under complete control by some authority.
"They don't want me to express my gender difference!" really has
nothing to do with it. What they really want is just to abuse
someone. The gender difference is just the ammunition being
used.
|2.19.08 @ 10:23AM|#
"Gary Coleman or Webster"
Both were short, black kids.
Is your remark a Hate Crime? Oh yeah... short isn't
"protected".
CB
lunchstealer|2.19.08 @ 10:25AM|#
Fluffy,
More or less, but children who are taught to accept gender
differences (especially if they are taught this at home - not sure
how well schools could do it) would be less likely to seek
out the gender different kids when looking for someone to be a
jerk to.
|2.19.08 @ 10:26AM|#
Wasn't there a high school for gay\trans kids in Manhattan that
opened recently?
I'd like to see what kind of teasing and social ostracism goes on
in that school. I dare say that it does occur.
|2.19.08 @ 10:30AM|#
Assaults should be prosected no matter who is the victim or the
perpetrator. As assault.
I truly wonder who is on the receiving end of the most cutting
remarks in high school. Is it gays, lesbians, fat girls, or nerds?
Perhaps it's the poor, the painfully shy or the mentally slow?
Except for Skip, the rich kid starting QB, and Buffy, the head
cheerleader and homecoming queen, we are all victims.
Damn, life is unfair. The government should do something about
that.
Episiarch|2.19.08 @ 10:31AM|#
I truly wonder who is on the receiving end of the most
cutting remarks in high school. Is it gays, lesbians, fat girls, or
nerds?
Probably the gay lesbian fat girl nerd.
|2.19.08 @ 10:42AM|#
Puberty sucked. Constant harassment from one's peers accounts
for most of the suckatude. People make fun of you. They make fun of
you for being gay, for being fat, for being slow witted, for being
poor, for being antisocial, for being ugly, and just for
being.
It sounds like GLBT teens are having a rough time of it. That is
something that should be addressed (but not by the Federal
Government!) It's not clear to me that they are having a rougher
time than everyone else.
KipEsquire|2.19.08 @ 10:42AM|#
It's difficult to imagine the teenager who has never been
painfully teased about something."
The MSA does not make teasing a crime.
Fluffy|2.19.08 @ 10:46AM|#
More or less, but children who are taught to accept gender
differences (especially if they are taught this at home - not sure
how well schools could do it) would be less likely to seek out the
gender different kids when looking for someone to be a jerk
to.
You see, that's exactly what I don't really believe.
Consider race as an analogue for sexual preference. Racist white
kids will pick on weak black kids, and keep their mouths shut
around weightlifter black kids who can fuck their shit up. And
nonracist white kids will also pick on weak black
kids, and keep their mouths shut around weightlifter black kids who
can fuck their shit up. The only thing that will change is the text
of the insults directed at the weak black kids.
I think sexual preference is pretty much the same, with the only
exception being that to the extent that openly gay male students
display feminine characteristics this may be perceived as
indicating physical weakness and may increase the number of kids
seen as weak potential targets.
|2.19.08 @ 10:46AM|#
Lesbians are already gay, they are also already girls*
(/pedant)
I'm sure that GLBT teens are having a worse time of it, much worse
in some cases. It's just that it's matter of degrees and not some
completely different type of hell that other kids don't also
experience.
* When someone told me that guys who like to hang out with lesbians
are called "Dutch boys", I didn't get it right away. When it
finally hit me I laughed.
|2.19.08 @ 10:50AM|#
rana,
You bitch! How dare you call Rosie O'Donnell a nerd! Speaking for
nerds, Rosie is definitely NOT one of us. I seriously doubt if she
could tell a Klingon from a Romulan.
KipEsquire|2.19.08 @ 11:10AM|#
"They [gay teenagers] are periodically confused and
depressed, but what teen isn't?"
The academic literature is
teeming with studies showing that gay teens, especially males,
are far more likely to ideate about suicide, perhaps by a factor of
ten, and also more likely to attempt suicide.
Cloud's homosexuality notwithstanding, this arrogantly flippant
"what's the big deal" piece is not a bandwagon people should be
jumping onto, one's views on the MSA notwithstanding.
Reagrdless of one's conclusions regarding policy, it never
"libertarian" to be wilfully oblivious to facts.
stephen the goldberger|2.19.08 @ 11:10AM|#
Fully 78% of gay and transgender kids say they feel safe at
school
My immediate reaction is shouldn't 100% of kids feel safe at High
School? Then I remembered that we're talking about High School, the
most brutal social environment known to man.
stephen the goldberger|2.19.08 @ 11:11AM|#
with that said I totally agree with KipEsquire. Using this justify hate crimes is stupid, but you shouldn't pretend that GLBT teens have it as hard as any other kid.
|2.19.08 @ 11:14AM|#
fluffy makes a good point. i think the 'hate crimes' advocates
would respond that while non-political schoolyard dominance games
('schoolyard politics'?) might be the mechanics behind smaller
less-bold GLBT kids or feminine, 'weak'-appearing gay boys getting
picked on, the fact remains that being gay or perceived as gay
means you're more likely to get picked on than you would be if you
weren't. of course, the same goes for being a misfit of a thousand
other stripes.
in my suburban central jersey town, there were 1 or two gay-acting
boys who didn't get picked on much. more of it was racial tension,
directed mostly (or maybe this was just my perception because I was
one) at foreign/1st generation kids of the type who didn't band
together (i always admired black and mexican kids for their
solidarity) to defend each other. anyway, i think the usual
weirdos/smelly kids/skinny wimps/losers etc made up the bulk of the
put-upon.
then again there was an openly gay male teacher who was absolutely
ostracized and ridiculed by everyone. i never once saw a male
teacher socialize with him in public.
RogerX|2.19.08 @ 11:14AM|#
Uhhh, they DO know that Matthew Shepard's murder was NOT a hate
crime based on his sexuality, but a robbery gone bad so the two
losers who killed him could score more meth?
The gay rage defense that came out in trial was a smokescreen that
was rebutted later.
Yes Matthew had been harassed by others in high school... but
having been friends with numerous members of the University of
Wyoming LGBTA in the mid-late 90s, including some of Matthew
Shepard's friends, I found Laramie to be very open to most people's
personal preferences, much like any college town. That despite the
"cowboy legacy" of the town and the obvious geography... Wyoming
was where I picked up many of my libertarian attitudes towards
social progressiveness and the benefits of small government.
|2.19.08 @ 12:11PM|#
...transgender kids...
Uh, what? Do we not tell little Johnny to wait until he's 18 before
getting estrogen shots and cutting off his dick?
s.m. koppelman|2.19.08 @ 12:27PM|#
Wow, so GLBT kids contacted through organizations that work
with GLBT youth report better experiences than might have been
expected from GLBT teens. Could it be because the surveyed group
was comprised disproportionately of teens who are out to their
families, friends and/or schoolmates?
Sure, that's more common than it used to be (which was pretty much
"not at all" a few decades back), but I'd be hesitant to say the
survey group is representative of GLBT teens overall. If anything,
the results seem to indicate that in communities where support
systems for GLBT youth have been around for a while, broader
community acceptance follows.
|2.19.08 @ 1:29PM|#
...transgender kids...
Uh, what? Do we not tell little Johnny to wait until he's 18
before getting estrogen shots and cutting off his dick?
I don't know whether this comment was meant to be ironic or not,
but just to stop the spread of ignorance, I'd like to point out
that you have confused the term "transgender" (a person who
acts/dresses/identifies as one gender while biologically remaining
the opposite gender) with transsexual, someone who has
taken hormones and undergone an operation to change his/her
biological sex. i.e., the difference between pre-op and
post-op.
gender=identifies as either male or female (woman trapped in a
man's body, vice versa)
sex=biologically male or female (male sex=penis, female
sex=vagina)
|2.19.08 @ 1:52PM|#
"Gay teens feel awkward...." Yes, the 18% of gay kids who report
being assaulted really shouldn't expect the federal government --
or, god forbid, libertarians -- to step in and help them. Having
someone beat the shit out of you because of who you are is just
part of that awkward stage of life.
Maybe they should try not being gay next time. That way they can be
cool and make jokes about Rosie O'Donnell being a fat lesbian
loser, not all gay and awkward and assaulted.
Fluffy|2.19.08 @ 1:59PM|#
Well, Houdini, although I still tend to think that the political
component of ubiquitous youth cruelty is being overplayed here, I
would say that the best way to protect these kids is to remake the
entire educational establishment of the US on more consumerist
grounds.
It really stupefies me sometimes that schools - even private
schools - appear to be one of the few institutions operating in the
US where customer satisfaction doesn't count for anything.
There aren't a lot of restaurants or movie theatres out there where
the guy sitting next to you gets to fuck with you and you have no
recourse. Why aren't students more like customers? Public schools,
I guess I can understand why their customers are treated like dirt
- but even private schools are like this.
I guess on some level it's partially because the kids aren't the
actual customer, the parents are - but if you were sitting in a
restaurant and someone was harassing your kid, wouldn't you pretty
much go berserk?
|2.19.08 @ 1:59PM|#
This is the point y'all are missing:
Regardless of who's being teased for what, assault is a very
different issue from teasing. no one should be
assaulted based on race, religion, gender, or sexual
preference, and assaults based on gender/sexual preferences should
be treated with as little tolerance as assaults based on race and
religion.
As cthulu2008 said(a comment that people seemed to ignore), "If one
out of five black kids were being assaulted for their race we would
have a very serious problem."
Furthermore, if there was a survey released saying that reports of
assaults based on RACE received positive responses from school
staff only 70% of the time, that survey would be making headlines
and passing hate-crime acts overnight, and rightly so.
|2.19.08 @ 2:03PM|#
will:
don't even bother. the commentariat here barely has any respect for
transgender libertarian economists; they're certainly not going to
show any respect for lesser souls.
Rhywun|2.19.08 @ 2:04PM|#
Maybe they should try not being gay next time.
That's how I got through high school. It works.
|2.19.08 @ 2:11PM|#
On another note (though not directly related to MSA), I agree with what Fluffy said about harassment in high-schools. Saying that high-school is a naturally miserable place is an undeveloped, circular defense; why can't anything be done about assaults in high-schools? If you were the nerdy/fat/short/skinny/whatever kid who got the shit beaten out of him/her every day, you'd probably have a different opinion about defending such a poor establishment.
|2.19.08 @ 2:17PM|#
"Gay Teens Feel Awkward"? How about "Gay Teens are Getting Shot in the Fucking Head"! Mr. Weigel, you should be ashamed of yourself.
|2.19.08 @ 2:25PM|#
Yes, the 18% of gay kids who report being assaulted really
shouldn't expect the federal government -- or, god forbid,
libertarians -- to step in and help them.
Bullshit, Houdini. You won't find any libertarian who doesn't think
assault shouldn't be punished.
|2.19.08 @ 2:27PM|#
Oops. Double negatived there. Just ignore the "n't" of your choice. Well, not the first one.
|2.19.08 @ 2:47PM|#
Well, Houdini, Rosie O'Donnell is fat, and she is a lesbian. I
don't know if she's a loser, though- she seems to have done pretty
well for herself.
More important, I think, is that she is an annoying
loudmouth.
And truthaddict, how about we prosecute all assaults equally?
Making categories of assaults which are somehow more egregious or
sinister because of their motive seems to be a meaningless exercise
in political correctness. If I walk up to you and punch you in the
face, I should receive the same punishment regardless of if I
punched you in the face because you're gay or because I didn't like
your shirt.
|2.19.08 @ 3:18PM|#
Mk wrote, "It's just that it's matter of degrees and not some
completely different type of hell that other kids don't also
experience."
Maybe for GLB students, but for T students, it is a whole other
catagory. For transsexual teens, puberty itself is a living hell.
Imagine what it's like to watch in horror as your body develops in
a way that is completely at odds with your inner identity. The
emerging secondary sex characteristics are grotesque and alien to
the trans teen who spent his childhood praying for a miracle to
transform his body into alignment with his mind. Now a teen,
nature's cruel betrayal is complete. Trans teens often lose all
self-esteem; survival becomes a constant struggle.
Now imagine being ridiculed and teased relentlessly by other kids
on top of that.
|2.19.08 @ 3:38PM|#
"""no one should be assaulted based on race, religion, gender,
or sexual preference, and assaults based on gender/sexual
preferences should be treated with as little tolerance as assaults
based on race and religion.""""
No one should be assaulted, should be good enough. I don't think
the person who assaults me should do less jail time because I'm a
white straight man.
|2.19.08 @ 3:50PM|#
Wolfgang,
I appreciate that. It must be very difficult. But we have to go
back to whether or not they are being assaulted disproportionately
to other kids.
I never ran into a transgender person while I was a teenager. I
did, however, have many friends who fit into one of the first three
categories. How they reacted to societal disapproval fell at every
point in the spectrum of responses; from terribly bummed out and
shamed, to giving back much more than they were getting and
seemingly unaffected.
|2.19.08 @ 3:58PM|#
I never ran into a transgender person while I was a
teenager.
Would running into a transgender person be a hate crime?
Episiarch|2.19.08 @ 4:00PM|#
Maybe they should try not being gay next time.
That's how I got through high school. It works.
Hey, me too! Oh wait, you meant that you pretended to not
be gay. I see.
"Gay Teens Feel Awkward"? How about "Gay Teens are Getting Shot
in the Fucking Head"! Mr. Weigel, you should be ashamed of
yourself.
This should qualify for a drink. But only a fruity, totally faggy
drink.
|2.19.08 @ 4:07PM|#
"Gay Teens Feel Awkward"? How about "Gay Teens are Getting Shot
in the Fucking Head"! Mr. Weigel, you should be ashamed of
yourself.
"This should qualify for a drink. But only a fruity, totally faggy
drink."
LOL!
My gay friends and I like to drink mandarin margaritas or sangria
(I'm not gay but I'm a woman so I can admit I like fruity
drinks).
Gus|2.19.08 @ 4:12PM|#
Isn't Wegel Gay? I mean that sincerely; just look at his picture. And if so, where's the disclamer? Is he closeted? Does he suffer from internalized homophobia? His discounting of assaults on gay teens would seem to support this.
Rhywun|2.19.08 @ 4:28PM|#
Hey, me too! Oh wait, you meant that you pretended to not be
gay. I see.
Actually, I didn't pretend either gay or straight. As it happens,
the issue never came up in the crowds I hung around (both nerds and
jocks). Nor was I "bullied" very much at all throughout all my
school years. Either I'm lucky, or the commonly-accepted depiction
of school as a jungle full of preying bullies is overblown many
times over.
Episiarch|2.19.08 @ 4:34PM|#
the commonly-accepted depiction of school as a jungle full
of preying bullies is overblown many times over
I think it varies from school to school. My school had virtually no
physical violence, and ripping on people was considered an
admirable pastime. But that included ripping on anyone, though of
course there were those who got it more.
But I think there are also your Heathers type and
Freaks and Geeks type schools out there too. We just
didn't go to one.
Actually, I didn't pretend either gay or straight.
Me too! But my obvious lusting after certain girls sort of
indicated straightness anyway.
Rhywun|2.19.08 @ 4:43PM|#
Me too! But my obvious lusting after certain girls sort of
indicated straightness anyway.
It's funny. By the time I was a junior or senior (c. 1988), the
incoming classes started to include some obvious gays. Before then
it would have been unthinkable. I sincerely hope kids no longer
feel the need to pretend, uh... sexlessness? What a bore that
was.
Episiarch|2.19.08 @ 4:49PM|#
Same time frame for me, too, and I would say that it was similar. However, I didn't think anybody was obviously gay (I wasn't concerned one way or the other so I wasn't looking), and I have never heard about anyone from high school who later turned out to be gay. There had to be some, though.
|2.19.08 @ 4:50PM|#
Trickyvic:
No one should be assaulted, should be good enough. I don't
think the person who assaults me should do less jail time because
I'm a white straight man.
Jim Bob:
And truthaddict, how about we prosecute all assaults equally?
Making categories of assaults which are somehow more egregious or
sinister because of their motive seems to be a meaningless exercise
in political correctness. If I walk up to you and punch you in the
face, I should receive the same punishment regardless of if I
punched you in the face because you're gay or because I didn't like
your shirt.
To begin with, I'd like to refer you both to a relevant article by
Andrew Sullivan, who shares a similar perspective to your own,
while making an important distinction:
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/05/hate_crimes_and.html
Oddly enough, John Cloud himself references this article in his
rail against hate-crime legislation in general, even though the
point of Sullivan's article is to address the double-standard of
current hate-crime laws against gay people.
Regardless of whether or not you approve of hate-crime legislation
as a whole, the failure of MSA, (which only adds ethnicity,
disability, gender, and sexual orientation to current hate crime
legislation) will not lead to a repeal of the 1969 hate-crime law,
which already protects "any person because of his race, color,
religion or national origin and because he is or has been." This
law will remain regardless of whether or not MSA is passed, because
any talk of its repeal would be immediately shot-down by minority
groups and their majority supporters.
Therefore, the failure of MSA would only result in crimes motivated
by "race, color, religion or national origin" continuing to be
punished more severely than crimes motivated by ethnicity,
disability, gender, and sexual orientation. No matter how
idealistic you are about treating all assaults equally, this would
in no way bring our criminal justice system closer to any ideal of
equality.
Episiarch|2.19.08 @ 5:12PM|#
Rhywun, where did you go to high school? Maybe you were a gay dude in my school. :-)
|2.19.08 @ 5:49PM|#
truthaddict,
From the Sullivan piece:
There are, I think, two coherent positions on hate crime laws. The first is opposition to the entire concept, its chilling effect on free speech, its undermining of the notion of equality under the law, and so on.
The quote is the position with which I agree. Having said that,
Sullivan's thesis is valid; it's also yet another reason to support
the repeal of so-called "hate crime" laws.
|2.19.08 @ 6:28PM|#
Mk wrote, "But we have to go back to whether or not they are
being assaulted disproportionately to other kids."
I think the only way to truly assess that would be to place
researchers in the schools to make detailed observations.
Furthermore, there's the issue of impact: What one kid is able to
just blow off may be traumatic for another. I just wanted to point
out in my previous post that the the experience of adolescence is
markedly different for trans kids than for other groups, which your
previous statement seemed to overlook.
I was in school back in the '70's and '80's, and as I recall,
junior high was the worst. Geographic region is also a huge factor.
In my experience, kids in the midwest were generally more laid-back
and tolerant than kids in the west, who were more "in-your-face"
and more obsessed with being cruel.
|2.19.08 @ 9:33PM|#
The argument for hate-crimes legislation is that punishment for crime should serve as a deterrent, and in some cases extra deterrents are needed. If gays are victimized disproportionately, then a harsher 'hate crimes' sentence sends a message that such a crime will not be tolerated. Eventually, when the numbers even out, the sentences should as well.
LarryA|2.19.08 @ 10:55PM|#
Maybe they should try not being gay next time.
That's how I got through high school. It works.
Not so much if you choose to take choir instead of PE. It always
amazed me that the jocks, who went out on the playing field with
only other boys and huddled, slapped each other on the butt, and
showered together were "manly men." The guys in the choir, where it
was two girls per boy, you got to sing love songs together, and if
there was choreography dance together, were considered homo.
In related news, the Pink Pistols have filed an amicus brief in
D.C. v Heller. (PDF) A somewhat different approach,
self-defense.
They say that most assaults occur in the gay's home.
Mike Laursen|2.19.08 @ 11:08PM|#
We forget sometimes that to be a teenager - any teenager -
is to learn to cope with the turbid, inchoate bigotries of
still-developing minds.
It would help if we didn't force teenagers to spend their weekdays
couped up with nothing but a bunch of other teenagers.
LarryA|2.20.08 @ 10:22AM|#
It would help if we didn't force teenagers to spend their
weekdays couped up with nothing but a bunch of other
teenagers.
I have to ask. Did you really mean cooped up in
school, or are you cleverly using "couped" to refer to time spent
in ubiquitous teenage automobiles?
Mike Laursens of the World|2.20.08 @ 10:36AM|#
Uh oh, I guess I've been listening to too much Chuck Berry.
|2.21.08 @ 3:56AM|#
...ONLY 18% say they'd been assaulted?
How is nearly one in five an argument for restraint? If "only" 18%
of people walking down a street at night got mugged, would you want
to go there?
Now I think that these kinds of hate crime laws are terrible,
terrible, very bad, no good, stupid ideas. I fiercely oppose any
such Mat Sheppard laws, but DAMN- using this kind of data as to
help the cause is simply retarded.
gayadvocate|2.21.08 @ 10:01AM|#
I believe there are many gay kids who would never describe
themselves as gay because doing so would invite hate, abuse, and
shunning from their own families. People think that high school is
the worst fate a gay teen could suffer, and that is stupidly naive.
Being born to gay-hating parents is much, much worse, and it has
been common for a long, long time.
Does anyone here know what it feels like to be hated to the point
of wishing eternal torture on you by your own parents when they
discovered what turned you on -- and there was no way of appeasing
them short of changing the way you feel? Is your experience
anything like that?
That's reality for many, many gays, and many of them will choose to
say "I'm straight" and even get married in a straight marriage to
avoid the consequences of doing otherwise.
All this "high school" bullshit is just bullshit.
And no, the government can't fix this, either.
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