Reason Magazine
- reason.com
- reason.tv
- reason.org
- Donate
- Site Search:
Reason on Facebook
Reason on Twitter
Reason on YouTube
Reason RSSGet Reason E-mail Updates!
Manage your Reason e-mail list subscriptionsadvertisements
New at Reason
Michael C. Moynihan explores how a brilliant new documentary, Shoot Down, recounts the 1996 destruction of two unarmed planes off the coast of Cuba and begins the hard work of redrawing Hollywood's false image of "Castro-as-beneficent-leader." As Michael Moore's paean to Cuba's health-care system gets an Oscar nomination, read all about Shoot Down here.
|1.29.08 @ 12:10PM|#
"From our vantage point, it's easy to forget that Clinton
sanctioned the liberal use of heavily militarized federal agents at
Ruby Ridge, Waco, and during the seizure of Elian Gonzales from a
Florida residence. He also reversed a 30-year old American policy
treating those fleeing Cuba as political refugees."
What vantage point is that other than the one of a hypocrite? I
don't see how anyone could easily forget watching the government
burn American citizens to death on national TV.
|1.29.08 @ 12:13PM|#
While Clinton pretty clearly sanctioned the massacre at Waco...
and likely would have sanctioned Ruby Ridge.... it's hard to pin
Ruby Ridge on him, considering that it happened before he was
President.
As for the Brothers to the Rescue... who knows. It's still a big
deal in South Florida, but there's a lot of people who are still
convinced that those planes weren't just out there to look for
refugees. Me? I'm not sure either way.
|1.29.08 @ 12:22PM|#
The original Waco raid - the decision to use militarized police to storm the compound SWAT-style - was ordered before Clinton, too. It was the second attempt that was ordered by Freeh and approved by Reno.
|1.29.08 @ 12:23PM|#
Oh, I get it. CIA planes spying on Cuba's wonderful healthcare system! Spying on their incredible technology, scientific advancements, and model infrastructure! How DO they do it!!
|1.29.08 @ 12:24PM|#
I think it is a great overreach (but expected from MM) to assert
that Sicko was a "paean to Cuba's health-care system." As I saw it
Moore's whole rhetorical trick was "hey, this craphole has a health
care system which treats its people better than we do."
And I'm not sure that a "Castro as beneficent leader" image can be
said to be that hegemonic of a view in Hollywood films...Many do
show things being awful under Batista of course, which they
were...The last one about this I remember was the Lost City, chock
full of stars and pretty hard on Castro and Che (rightfully
so)...
Nick Gillespie|1.29.08 @ 12:25PM|#
Ruby Ridge obviously took place before Bill Clinton became president. However, his administration sanctioned the carnage there by later promoting the person in charge to deputy director of the FBI. As The New York Times noted in 1995, "Two years ago Larry Potts, a senior Federal Bureau of investigation official, was one of those most responsible for mismanagement of a disastrous encounter between agents and a band of armed separatists in Idaho. F.B.I. Director Louis Freeh censured him for his role in that fiasco, and Attorney General Janet Reno approved the censure. Yet now Mr. Potts has been promoted to deputy director of the agency. The promotion was recommended by Mr. Freeh and approved by Ms. Reno. What kind of two-faced management is this? If a censure means anything, it is surely not a ticket to promotion but a warning that the recipient is not fit for the highest levels of command responsibility."
|1.29.08 @ 12:26PM|#
Cesar-because Clinton=Great Satan in the mind of many on the right. In fact, he counted and capitalized on such hysteric hatred...Without that hatred he was just a mediocre DLC candidate and politician...
|1.29.08 @ 12:28PM|#
MNG, Clinton was still a power-abusing slimeball. Hes also a
first-class liar and fraud.
I was starting to like him better in retrospect after seven years
of Dubya. However, since hes been opening his mouth so much in the
past weeks I've been reminded again and again why I hated him in
the first place.
|1.29.08 @ 12:29PM|#
Nick
That kind of stretching would make Mr. Fantastic proud...MM just
got carried away with feeding the red meat to the right
wingers...
DavidS|1.29.08 @ 12:30PM|#
Nick - no-one would read the article and think that 'sanctioned' was being used in the sense you suggest.
|1.29.08 @ 12:32PM|#
The guy was " one of those most responsible for mismanagement"
of RR. He was censured (fall guy?). Then two years later this
senior official had worked his way into a promotion. That's a
stretch. The administration who ordered it in the first place is to
blame, not the one that later promoted "one" of those "most
repsonsible" for the "mismanagement" (not decision) of the
operation...
Cesar-slimeball? Yes. Great Satan? Hardly...
|1.29.08 @ 12:33PM|#
"It is clear, though, that, as Rep. Lincoln Diaz-Balart (R-Fla.)
argues in the film, had such an event been perpetrated by the
apartheid government of South Africa or Pinochet's Chile, the level
of public outrage surely would have been greater."
Exactly.
fyodor|1.29.08 @ 12:34PM|#
And however heavy handed and wrongheaded the assault on the Waco
compound was, there's little evidence the feds were directly
responsible for the fire that killed those folks.
I'm surprised joe hasn't beaten me to that.
|1.29.08 @ 12:34PM|#
I think it is a great overreach (but expected from MM) to
assert that Sicko was a "paean to Cuba's health-care system." As I
saw it Moore's whole rhetorical trick was "hey, this craphole has a
health care system which treats its people better than we
do."
And I'm not sure that a "Castro as beneficent leader" image can be
said to be that hegemonic of a view in Hollywood
films...
Michael Moynihan knows all of that.
He uses language to manipulate, not teach or convince. He doesn't
refute arguments, so much as characterize them, or mischaracterize
them, in a manner to make them feel disreputable.
|1.29.08 @ 12:35PM|#
You know, if George W. Bush had carried out Waco lefties would be screaming about the coming fascism.
dhex|1.29.08 @ 12:37PM|#
cesar: such is the nature of team red team blue go team go,
despite joe's protestations to the contrary.
everyone wants to lick some boots. it's only human. what matters is
whose foot is wearing the boot.
|1.29.08 @ 12:38PM|#
Cesar,
I totally forgot that John Edwards beat Hillary in Iowa on a
previous thread. I remembered her as coming in second.
Because it fits a narrative by which I understand events. It's in
my head that Hillary and Obama are fighting it out for first place,
so that's how I remembered events.
|1.29.08 @ 12:40PM|#
"Long under the spell of radical writers such as Dalton
Trumbo and Clifford Odets, Hollywood was "a town that welcomed
Daniel Ortega of the Sandinista junta but never took up the cause
of a single Soviet or Eastern European dissident."
Perhaps they were too busy with such left wing dramas as Red Dawn
and Rocky IV.
While it is lamentable that Cuba attacked Cessnas with MiGs,
Moynihan points out that Brothers to the Rescue transformed from
doing humanitarian missions to outright conflict with the Cuban
government. After years of warning the Brothers to stop flying into
Cuban airspace, Cuba finally shot down planes that admittedly had
violated Cuban airspace repeatedly with the intent to provoke. It
was an overreaction, but if you intend to provoke a dog, and that
dog bites you, you can't claim to be surprised. In fact, you should
claim success, because that was your goal.
Castro is an awful human being, but that doesn't make radical right
wingers good people. I know what the article is trying to say, but
I look back to the main points: (1) there are currently a bunch of
movies that negatively portray the human consequences of communism
and a few that romanticize revolution, (2) Hollywood put out tons
of anti-communist movies in the 70s and 80s, and (3) radicals
provoked Castro into an act of murder to prove what we already
knew: that Castro is a murderer....and by the way, Clinton is
too.
BakedPenguin|1.29.08 @ 12:40PM|#
I was starting to like him better in retrospect after seven years of Dubya. However, since hes been opening his mouth so much in the past weeks I've been reminded again and again why I hated him in the first place.
QFMFT
Hollywood isn't as glorifying of Castro as MosFilm was,
though.
dhex, well, if we gotta lick boots...
(possibly NSFW)
|1.29.08 @ 12:41PM|#
"It is clear, though, that, as Rep. Lincoln Diaz-Balart
(R-Fla.) argues in the film, had such an event been perpetrated by
the apartheid government of South Africa or Pinochet's Chile, the
level of public outrage surely would have been greater."
Oh bullshit. This is a country where most people, including most
libertarians, thought a video of a kid begging the police not to
repeatedly shock him was hilarious.
|1.29.08 @ 12:45PM|#
the hard work of redrawing Hollywood's false image of
"Castro-as-beneficent-leader." As Michael Moore's paean to Cuba's
health-care system
such is the nature of team red team blue go team go
Good thing being a libertarian so thoroughly innoculates one to
simplifying cheerleading and phoney-baloney dualisms.
As least Democrats like myself acknowledge that such bias is
possible, and look out fot it.
The Wine Commonsewer|1.29.08 @ 12:45PM|#
Well done, Mr Moynihan.
there's little evidence the feds were directly responsible for
the fire that killed those folks.
Alan Bock would disagree with that.
|1.29.08 @ 12:48PM|#
Had such an event been perpetrated by the the regime of Fulgencio Batista, the level of Miami Cuban outrage surely would have been zero because Batista supported their sugar interests.
|1.29.08 @ 12:50PM|#
Good thing being a libertarian so thoroughly innoculates one
to simplifying cheerleading and phoney-baloney dualisms.
Mr Kettle: You are most certainly black!
|1.29.08 @ 12:51PM|#
Perhaps they were too busy with such left wing dramas as Red
Dawn and Rocky IV.
C'mon Lamar, the Cuban in Red Dawn was clearly portayed as being a
reluctant white hat. I heard that Vince Foster used the Whitewater
millions to pay off John Milius* to change the Cuban into a good
guy.
(*When I was looking up Red Dawn on IMDB I was thinking to myself
"No way was this pos written by Milius. That would be way too pat."
Sure enough, written and directed by Milius. I LOL'd.)
|1.29.08 @ 12:52PM|#
And however heavy handed and wrongheaded the assault on the
Waco compound was, there's little evidence the feds were directly
responsible for the fire that killed those folks.
But they did prevent fire fighters and rescue crews that were
standing by from, um, fighting the fire and rescuing people. And
perhaps the more than 150 teargas "ferret" canisters, and the
structural damage done by a FUCKING TANK to the building had
something to do with it.
But, yeah, no real evidence.
|1.29.08 @ 12:52PM|#
See, if you read the whole comment before opening your yap, you don't end up looking like a fool, like you did just now.
|1.29.08 @ 12:53PM|#
As least Democrats like myself acknowledge that such bias is
possible, and look out fot it.
Your mother must be proud.
|1.29.08 @ 12:54PM|#
there's little evidence the feds were directly responsible
for the fire that killed those folks.
I mean, how could firing incendiary tear gas rounds into a wooden
building be responsible for the ensuing fire? Geez, you wingnut
Bill-haters need to get a grip.
Calidore|1.29.08 @ 12:57PM|#
de stijl,
C'mon Lamar, the Cuban in Red Dawn was clearly portayed as
being a reluctant white hat.
FYI: I believe the character was supposed to be Nicaraguan.
fyodor|1.29.08 @ 12:59PM|#
I think it is a great overreach (but expected from MM) to
assert that Sicko was a "paean to Cuba's health-care system." As I
saw it Moore's whole rhetorical trick was "hey, this craphole has a
health care system which treats its people better than we
do."
Well, yeah, he reflected Cuba being a "craphole" to a degree, but
only to the degree that it's so poor and much poorer than the US.
One would come away with the impression (if not refuted by other
sources) that at least its government really cared about its people
(and about US citizenry more than the US government does).
|1.29.08 @ 1:02PM|#
At least Morgan Suprlock is there to point out to us morons that Cuba is great because it doesn't buy "Consumer crap" like we do./sarcasm
|1.29.08 @ 1:04PM|#
"Had such an event been perpetrated by the the regime of
Fulgencio Batista, the level of Miami Cuban outrage surely would
have been zero because Batista supported their sugar
interests."
So, what are you saying Lamar? That most, if not all, Cubans exiled
in Miami are/were Batista supporters? That they simply dont like
Castro because he doesnt support their sugar interests? That none
of them were with "La Revolucion" at the beginning but were later
oppressed and persecuted?
|1.29.08 @ 1:06PM|#
joe-
If someone says Holland has better drug laws than we do I'll be the
first to agree. If they say Singapore has more economic freedom
I'll be the first to agree.
But if they say Cuban healthcare is the wave of the future, I'm
going to say healthcare here is better. If someone praises North
Korea because they don't have any advertisements, I'm going to
disagree.
|1.29.08 @ 1:06PM|#
So, what are you saying Lamar?
I think he's saying that it's remarkably easy to put togther such a
shabby argument in order to manipulate people who are eager to
choose up sides.
And that's where you come in, rana; you did notice that his comment
was a deliberate parallel to an earlier one that you didn't see
anything wrong with, right?
|1.29.08 @ 1:08PM|#
"Oh bullshit. This is a country where most people, including
most libertarians, thought a video of a kid begging the police not
to repeatedly shock him was hilarious" (joe)
Evidence please? MOST people thought this was HILARIOUS?? The only
people who didn't were probably Democrats or public school
teachers? Unbelievably stupid.
|1.29.08 @ 1:09PM|#
Cesar,
If someone says Holland has better drug laws than we do I'll be
the first to agree. If they say Singapore has more economic freedom
I'll be the first to agree.
And that's because you don't have anything invested in taking a
side in an America/Holland or America/Singapore pissing
match.
But if they say Cuban healthcare is the wave of the future, I'm
going to say healthcare here is better. And even when they
DON'T say that, you can easily be fooled into believing they have,
and rush to the barricades to argue "our side." That's the
point.
|1.29.08 @ 1:11PM|#
evidence please?
Uh, the fact that "Don't tase me, bro!" has become a
punchline?
Do you OWN a television?
|1.29.08 @ 1:12PM|#
Joe anyone that even suggests we have anything to learn from a
authoritarian communist government doesn't deserve to be given the
time of day.
Funny how lefties pounce on anyone who dare suggest Pinochet grew
Chile's economy, but are quite willing to talk up Cuba's healthcare
and education systems.
DavidS|1.29.08 @ 1:14PM|#
Funny how lefties pounce on anyone who dare suggest Pinochet
grew Chile's economy, but are quite willing to talk up Cuba's
healthcare and education systems.
But Pinochet did grow the economy, and Cuba's health
indicators are (or certainly were a few years ago when I
last looked) better than you'd expect given its wealth.
|1.29.08 @ 1:14PM|#
rana,
His 12:48 PM post, the one you referenced, the one where he
replaced that language in this quote:
"It is clear, though, that, as Rep. Lincoln Diaz-Balart (R-Fla.)
argues in the film, had such an event been perpetrated by the
apartheid government of South Africa or Pinochet's Chile, the level
of public outrage surely would have been greater."
|1.29.08 @ 1:15PM|#
Cuba's health indicators are (or certainly were a few years ago when I last looked) better than you'd expect given its wealth.
So is Costa Rica's.
jackanapestarian|1.29.08 @ 1:16PM|#
It's hilarious 'cause he said "bro", not 'cause he was tased. Not that he might not have deserved it. I would add that saying "dude" also qualifies one for tasing.
|1.29.08 @ 1:17PM|#
But we don't hear anything about Costa Rica. We hear about Cuba. Because in Hollywood, its someone hip to admire Communist thugs.
|1.29.08 @ 1:18PM|#
My 12:48 post is a re-write of Lincoln Diaz-Balart's quote about
other regimes like Pinochet's. I was pointing out that many Miami
Cubans who escaped the revolution had no problem with Batista's
murderous ways, but now criticize Castro for human rights
abuses.
joe was right in his characterization, and apparently a much faster
typer.
As for "Don't tase me, bro" Here
and reply to this
|1.29.08 @ 1:18PM|#
Cesar,
Joe anyone that even suggests we have anything to learn from a
authoritarian communist government doesn't deserve to be given the
time of day.
Nobody is saying that! I'm not saying that, Michael Moorse isn't
saying that. That's the fucking point! You have allowed yourself to
be convinced that someone is making this argument, because your own
bias and your tribalist, "red-blue" approach to politics makes you
an easy mark for people like Michael Moynihan.
You think you're so advanced and elevated about the silly red-blue
partisans, and you fall into exactly the same trap, over and over
again, because you simply assume that being neither a Democrat nor
a Republican makes you immune to "Go Team XXX" appeals.
|1.29.08 @ 1:19PM|#
joe,
I agree with Diaz-Balart.
I disagree with Lamar's parallel comment.
But you alrady know this.
|1.29.08 @ 1:22PM|#
Joe, let me know when some Hollywood hot-shot makes a movie that says our economy is so mis-managed even Pinochet's Chile had a better economic system and better fiscal discipline than our government does now.
dhex|1.29.08 @ 1:24PM|#
Good thing being a libertarian so thoroughly innoculates one
to simplifying cheerleading and phoney-baloney dualisms.
and don't you forget it, commie.
DavidS|1.29.08 @ 1:28PM|#
Cuba and Costa Rica have roughly similar health outcomes - but
Cuba is considerably poorer (Costa Rican incomes are nearly
double).
Take infant mortality:
Costa Rica - 10 deaths before the age of 5 per 1000 live
births
Cuba - 7.1 deaths.
United States - 8 deaths.
|1.29.08 @ 1:28PM|#
Cesar | January 29, 2008, 1:22pm | #
Joe, let me know when some Hollywood hot-shot makes a movie that
says our economy is so mis-managed even Pinochet's Chile had a
better economic system and better fiscal discipline than our
government does now.
Why?
Think very carefully here: why do you think this comment you just
posted has anything to do with what I've written?
What is it that makes you think, "Yeah, well, they don't complain
of Chile" is relevant to the discussion of whether or not, say,
Michael Moore's movie is a "paean to the wonders of the Cuban
health care system."
|1.29.08 @ 1:29PM|#
DavidS-
And you believe statistics from a Communist government, why?
Remember those GDP numbers we got from the Soviet Union all those
years? Completely false and we found it out their economy was much
smaller than hey claimed in 1991.
|1.29.08 @ 1:30PM|#
Do you have any evidence to the contrary, Cesar?
Or does it just gotta be wrong, because...you know...Go Team!
|1.29.08 @ 1:31PM|#
Do you have any evidence to the contrary, Cesar?
Well, given the accuracy of statistics from the USSR and former
Eastern Bloc, I'd say theres a good chance Cuba's stats aren't
accurate either.
|1.29.08 @ 1:33PM|#
The question is, do you have any evidence that the figures are
higher?
Do you have any better sources of information?
|1.29.08 @ 1:34PM|#
Are those 8 deaths per 1000 in the US prior to age 5 inclusive of all causes or just natural deaths? I mean I'm sure we have far more children killed in car accidents than Cuba or Costa Rica because we have more cars, faster highways, and probably shittier drivers per 1000, but I'm just curious. I certainly don't mean to say it's acceptable.
|1.29.08 @ 1:34PM|#
No, but I'm smart enough not to take Castro at face value. Did you believe the stats coming out of the Soviet Union during the Cold War too joe?
Calidore|1.29.08 @ 1:34PM|#
Cesar,
A major reason why Pinochet lost power was due to the economic
problems associated with the regime's various measures.
|1.29.08 @ 1:36PM|#
This what the Cuban/socialist healthcare system has done in
Venezuela:
http://www.eluniversal.com/2008/01/29/pol_art_a-chavez-no-le-ha-i_686674.shtml
(sorry, its in Spanish. Let me see if I can find the English
version)
|1.29.08 @ 1:39PM|#
Did you believe the stats coming out of the Soviet Union
during the Cold War too joe?
No. Nor did I assume that they just had to be what I wanted them to
be. That's the difference between us.
DavidS|1.29.08 @ 1:40PM|#
And you believe statistics from a Communist government,
why?
I am sceptical about statistics from all badly-run governments.
Infant mortality stats tend to be quite good though.
It is probably true though that Castro's regime has delivered quite
good health outcomes all things considered, in the same way that
Pinochet's delivered good economic ones.
For me, these are questions of fact rather than ideology. It
doesn't make me like either of the regimes.
|1.29.08 @ 1:41PM|#
Well, it turned out their GDP was about half what they claimed it was. I'd bet a good deal of money there will be similar revelations when Castro's regime ends.
DavidS|1.29.08 @ 1:43PM|#
Are those 8 deaths per 1000 in the US prior to age 5
inclusive of all causes or just natural deaths? I mean I'm sure we
have far more children killed in car accidents than Cuba or Costa
Rica because we have more cars, faster highways, and probably
shittier drivers per 1000, but I'm just curious.
They are all deaths. Cuba, though, probably has more deaths due to
accidents than the US.
US infant mortality is quite high for a number of reasons - one of
which is that it has a lot of immigrants (yeah red team!). Another
is that it has relatively basic health care (yeah blue team!).
|1.29.08 @ 1:43PM|#
But hey, you could use statistics from countries with non-authoritarian governments to make your point to avoid the whole discussion.
|1.29.08 @ 1:43PM|#
The question is, do you have any evidence that the figures
are higher?
Do you have any better sources of information?
Given that the Cuban government has a complete monopoly on the data
that could be used to evaluate their claims, I would say this is
asking a bit much.
Seriously, when did the default position become "I believe the
self-serving claims of Communist regimes"?
|1.29.08 @ 1:43PM|#
It was the federal government that turned Waco into
Bake-o.
They used semi-automatic weapons on the people inside and later
claimed they hadn't fired a single shot.
Janet Reno is a lesbian murderer.
|1.29.08 @ 1:45PM|#
Infant mortality stats tend to be quite good
though.
They're not as comparable as you think. The US count as infant
mortality deaths from premature births that are treated as
stillbirths in most other countries, for example.
|1.29.08 @ 1:46PM|#
I wish people here would quit defending the health care system
of Cuba.
It's fucking a rel="nofollow"
href="http://www.therealcuba.com/kubac298.jpg">horrific
The Wine Commonsewer|1.29.08 @ 1:46PM|#
Oh bullshit. This is a country where most people, including
most libertarians, thought a video of a kid begging the police not
to repeatedly shock him was hilarious.
No, this is a country where most people take offense at moronic and
contemptible remarks like that.
|1.29.08 @ 1:47PM|#
FWIW the USSR lied about its infant mortality and life expectancy, too. They got noticeably worse between 1991 and 1992 and they don't change so drastically in one year unless someone was fudging the numbers.
Paul|1.29.08 @ 1:48PM|#
The original Waco raid - the decision to use militarized
police to storm the compound SWAT-style - was ordered before
Clinton, too.
Exactly. What we have is a government problem, not a Clinton
problem. Just get the right people in charge...
|1.29.08 @ 1:48PM|#
Goddamn it!
It's a picture of an old man in a hospital surrounded by his own
shit and urine.
|1.29.08 @ 1:50PM|#
What we have is a government problem,
That's true. What we really need to do is dismantle the BATF.
Greatest libertarian bumper sticker: "Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
should be a supermarket, not a federal agency."
The Wine Commonsewer|1.29.08 @ 1:51PM|#
I wish people here would quit defending the health care
system of Cuba.
They might defend it, but you won't find Jimmy Carter flying to
Habana for medical treatment.
|1.29.08 @ 1:52PM|#
They might defend it, but you won't find Jimmy Carter flying to Habana for medical treatment.
Or even Canada or France, really.
|1.29.08 @ 1:54PM|#
Jamie, I've seen that picture and other pictures of the horrific
state of Cuban healthcare. Thanks for the link.
And I have seen in person, the awful decline of Venezuelan
healthcare in its attempt to emulate Cuba. Sad.
DavidS|1.29.08 @ 1:54PM|#
FWIW the USSR lied about its infant mortality and life
expectancy, too. They got noticeably worse between 1991 and 1992
and they don't change so drastically in one year unless someone was
fudging the numbers.
Infant mortality in the Russian Federation:
1990 - 21 deaths before the age of 5 per 1000 live births
1991 - 21 deaths
|1.29.08 @ 1:56PM|#
Anyone else find it funny to see non-partisan libertarians
acting like graduates of the George Dubya Bush School of
Caricaturing Governments We Don't Like?
Castro Sucks! San Dimas High School Football rules! Go team!
LarryA|1.29.08 @ 1:56PM|#
But they did prevent fire fighters and rescue crews that
were standing by from, um, fighting the fire and rescuing people.
And perhaps the more than 150 teargas "ferret" canisters, and the
structural damage done by a FUCKING TANK to the building had
something to do with it.
As I remember the feds also cut off power, so the Davidians were
using lanterns in the midst of that chaos. I suppose you could hold
the Davidians responsible because of that. I don't.
And you believe statistics from a Communist government,
why?
And you believe statistics from a Communist
government, why?
The Wine Commonsewer|1.29.08 @ 2:00PM|#
Greatest libertarian bumper sticker....
Here you go
Jamie. Don't miss the photo gallery.
|1.29.08 @ 2:10PM|#
BTW the
Head of the OCED warns against head-to-head infant mortality
comparisons because they can be very misleading.
I guess he just as an ideological axe to grind, though.
|1.29.08 @ 2:15PM|#
Doug H.,
I'll take cheerleading, based on the evidence, over:
"Go Castro! Go Che! We're not really that great! There is no real
difference between authoritarianism and free-market capitalism!
Come fuck our cheerleaders!"
|1.29.08 @ 2:21PM|#
I'll take "objective facts and honest discussion of them" over
both, Jamie.
What's the matter, man
You never heard of our school?
We're number one in the state...
Be true to your school
Just like you were to your girl...
|1.29.08 @ 2:26PM|#
I believe it's been noted on these boards that the health care
facility that Michael Moore depicted in "Sicko" is EXCLUSIVELY to
treat foreigners - the actual Cuban people are forbidden to use it.
As are the hotels reserved for foreigners. And beaches.
It's brazenly dishonest and downright fraudulent for Michael Moore
to use this in his "documentary". It's as contemptible as using the
Nazi "model concentration camp" as typical of what the Jews were
forced to endure. For this fraud to be nominated for an Academy
Award is truly "sicko".
|1.29.08 @ 2:39PM|#
I didn't see the movie; did Moore state that the Cuban hospital he showed was used by ordinary Cubans?
|1.29.08 @ 2:42PM|#
" I was pointing out that many Miami Cubans who escaped the
revolution had no problem with Batista's murderous ways, but now
criticize Castro for human rights abuses."
And your evidence for THIS is what? That "many" had "NO PROBLEM"
with Batista's murderous ways? Oh, because they were all "sugar
barons".
When it's pointed out that the overwhelming majority of Miami
Cubans are NOT sugar barons, that yes, MANY were people who
initially supported "La Revolucion", and later became disillusioned
when large numbers of them became the targets of firing squads, we
fall back on "you just think that way because you're on the blue
team" nonsensical argument. When did stereotypes become "facts" and
"evidence"?
And by the way, for all his murderous ways, and he DID have them,
when did Batista FORCE the general populace to stay in Cuba? People
tearing down their shacks to make rafts to take to the open sea in
order to escape Cuba is a Castro development. Speaks volumes as to
whose ways are more murderous.
|1.29.08 @ 2:52PM|#
That isn't even remotely close to an accurate or fair reading of
Lamar's comment. He didn't assign any stereotypical characteristics
to anyone, you did.
But boy, it sure does feel good on those barricades, huh?
|1.29.08 @ 3:07PM|#
I believe atrevete was refering to you joe. That you fall back
on stereotypes, you know, your fave "go team xxx" whenever you
reply to someone's post.
And, I havent read atrevete assign any stereotypes to anyone.
You are projecting.
|1.29.08 @ 3:10PM|#
"did Moore state that the Cuban hospital he showed was used by
ordinary Cubans?"
Moore said in an interview on 20/20 that it was an average hospital
in Cuba, which is false.
|1.29.08 @ 3:11PM|#
The founder of Hermanos al Rescate, Jose Basulto, flew aid missions for the Contras in Nicaragua, i.e., Samoza's former murderous henchmen. He is one Miami Cuban leader who helps murderers while criticizing Castro for murderous ways.
|1.29.08 @ 3:18PM|#
No, rana, he wasn't.
This quote, "I was pointing out that many Miami Cubans who escaped
the revolution had no problem with Batista's murderous ways, but
now criticize Castro for human rights abuses," is not from
me.
So I'll treat your observations about my posts with all the respect
they're due.
|1.29.08 @ 3:31PM|#
I know that wasnt your quote joe.
This part of atrevete's argument:
"we fall back on "you just think that way because you're on the
blue team" nonsensical argument."
was directed to your reply to many, including myself:
"Of course you do, rana. Go Team Not-Red!"
So joe, I'll be expecting due respect.
|1.29.08 @ 3:31PM|#
atrevete:
I talk about "many Miami Cubans"
You hear me say, "All are sugar barons."
|1.29.08 @ 3:47PM|#
Lamar, someone who posts "Miami Cuban outrage surely would have been ZERO because Batista supported their sugar interests" should not be surprised if replies to this post include absolutes.
|1.29.08 @ 3:52PM|#
Absolutes are fine, I was mimicking a politician known for absolute BS. What isn't fine is taking my statements and transforming them into something easier to negate.
|1.29.08 @ 4:09PM|#
I'll take "objective facts and honest discussion of them"
over both, Jamie.
Silly joe, don't you understand? Castro Always Bad, Libertarians
Always Good. Black and white, us and them, if you're not with us,
you're against us.
(And some wonder how we wind up in so many wars.)
av2ts|1.29.08 @ 4:12PM|#
Basulto and his BTTR group were well known CIA sponsored terrorists in Cuba. Basulto had participated in countless acts of sabotage in Cuba and even bragged about having strafed a luxury hotel with gunfire in the 60s. He bombed power plants and trained terrorists in acts of bomb-making and sabotage. This is all part of the public record. In the 80s he helped the Contras and even hosted meetings with their convicted drug dealer connections at his home. By the 90s, without the support of Republicans in the Government, he decided to take the war to Cuba by himself. He wanted to provoke an international incident, as he so often said. This is why so many of the families of the victims angrily denounced his methods. He violated Cuban airspace 26 times, and Cuba made 9 written appeals to the US to do something. They finally did - suspending his license and warnign him never to fly these missions again. He ignored the warning and pressed ahead right before the incident. There is testimony that he had begun to upgrade the planes with military hardware right before the incident.
Thomas Paine\'s Goiter|1.29.08 @ 4:36PM|#
DavidS:
http://www.unicef.org/media/media_12164.html
ROME, 22 July 2003 - Infant mortality rates in nine countries of
Eastern Europe and the Commonwealth of Independent States are much
higher than official figures have long claimed, according to a new
report by UNICEF released today. UNICEF found that in some
countries deaths among children less than one year old were four
times higher than the official counts.
According to UNICEF's Social Monitor 2003, the infant death rate in
the Caucasus and Central Asia is five times greater than in the
rest of Central and Eastern Europe and the Commonwealth of
Independent States, and 12 times greater than in western
industrialised countries.
|1.29.08 @ 4:51PM|#
"Basulto and his BTTR group were well known CIA sponsored terrorists in Cuba. Basulto had participated in countless acts of sabotage in Cuba and even bragged about having strafed a luxury hotel with gunfire in the 60s. He bombed power plants and trained terrorists in acts of bomb-making and sabotage. This is all part of the public record." "Public record" WHERE, pray tell? Cuba? Surely this isn't just propaganda, is it?
Go! Team Red! Go!|1.29.08 @ 4:56PM|#
Castro is an awful human being, but that doesn't make
radical right wingers good people
A lot of radical right wingers comment here.
Most of them are probably good people.
BakedPenguin|1.29.08 @ 4:57PM|#
Psst! Guys! DougH is against us!
There could be a reason why Cubans live long lives that's not
connected to their health care - at least, if the folks at the
Caloric Restriction
Society are right.
|1.29.08 @ 4:58PM|#
Silly joe, don't you understand? Castro Always Bad,
Libertarians Always Good. Black and white, us and them, if you're
not with us, you're against us.
GET HIM!!!!
|1.29.08 @ 5:00PM|#
I don't know about some of the claims, but nobody disputes that Basulto was trained by the CIA, helped Somoza's murderous Contras and skirted the line between humanitarian assistance and non-state military action.
BakedPenguin|1.29.08 @ 5:04PM|#
Basulto was definitely trained by the CIA. He was in the Cuban Brigade @ the Bay of Pigs.
|1.29.08 @ 5:36PM|#
He uses language to manipulate, not teach or convince. He
doesn't refute arguments, so much as characterize them, or
mischaracterize them, in a manner to make them feel
disreputable.
This must be why North Korea barred him.
Can't have capitalist scum manipulating language against the
revolution now can we joe.
Why people actually eat this shit up here and even give you the
time of day for your "progressive" perspective is beyond me. They
must like breathing bullshit.
|1.29.08 @ 5:46PM|#
Nick
That kind of stretching would make Mr. Fantastic proud...MM just
got carried away with feeding the red meat to the right
wingers...
Huh?
The guy lead an assualt on American citizens Reno promoted him
despite their recognition of his blundering and he then burned up a
bunch of American women and children.
How again is that getting carried away and pandering to right
wingers? Fuck man, it sounds to me like he is pandering to
libertarians who don't like it when states kill their own citizens
without due process.
|1.29.08 @ 5:48PM|#
It would be a useful counterpoint with the recent passing of Indonesian dictator Suharto to consider the hundreds of thousands of his people murdered with the full complicity of the US government. The CIA was kind enough to provide him with lists of leftists and labor organizers to be eliminated. Just a thought to put things in perspective.
av2ts|1.29.08 @ 7:53PM|#
There is all kinds of evidence out there about Basulto's violent
history with the CIA. It's no secret. There was a recent internal
CIA report about those years of sabotage that just came out,
talking about the thousands of bombings and arsons that people like
Basulto were responsible for.
The Center for International Policy (CIP) says: "Basulto, a
CIA-trained exile, began that mission by committing acts of
sabotage in Cuba in the early 1960's. The Miami Herald reported in
March that Basulto testified that "he refused to help the
U.S.
government track illegal arms shipments to Cuba
because he broadly supports Cuban exile groups
bent on overthrowing Fidel Castro volently." The Herald noted this
contradicted Basulto's claim that he follows the teachings of
Martin Luther King, Jr. and Mohandas Gandhi.
Do a search for Basulto and CIA and see what you find...
|1.29.08 @ 9:28PM|#
The idea that a mole tipped off the Cubans to flights searching
for refugees in the sea is ludicrous. The BTR planes had been
flying for some time and were well known to Cuba and the US. They
had dropped leafelts over Havana inciting to insurrection and
generally sought to provoke an incident.
The Cubans had warned that they would not continue to stand by and
allow the incursions into their space. The night before the
shootings, Clinton' lead person on Cuba had announced that the
planes would fly again, and he was not happy about that. Clinton
supposedly directed Civil Aviation to stop the flights, but somehow
the agency never got around to it.
Basulto knew that they were in the line of fire. He also knew
enough to head back in time, leaving his younger co-pilots to get
shot down.
The shootings happened over international waters. The story of
innocent rescue flights being ratted out by a spy and shot down
without warning is a fairy tale.
|1.29.08 @ 11:25PM|#
LOL, can't have a debate about Cuba without having one of the dictator's apologist (what was term again? Oh yes, "useful idiot") call freed Cubans "terrorists". So Basulto took part in a fight to remove castro from power, wow, what a terrorist. Considering the shit the Cuban people have endured since, it's a shame more wasn't done. So he also took part in trying to remove the Sandinistas from power. Again, big fucking deal. Or do we forget that the Cuban & Soviets were the main backers of said Sandinistas? Perhaps our uninformed friends, av2ts & others, believe that the AK47s used by them were organically grown by peasants within the cafetales.
|1.30.08 @ 12:02AM|#
You mean the same AK-47s that the US supplied to Iraq? Oh no! Why are we giving them AK-47s when they can grow them in their back yard!
bernielomax|1.30.08 @ 12:51AM|#
Actually, the Katyn massacre did make it to the screen back in '74: Dusan Makavejev used the footage the Nazis shot of the massacre's aftermath in his surreal "Sweet Movie." If you're not familiar with Makayejev's work, I strongly suggest checking it out. Criterion just put out two fine DVDs of his films: "Sweet Movie" and "WR: Mysteries of the Organism." He's got the best of '68 and '89 in him.
Batman and the art of irreleva|1.30.08 @ 1:49AM|#
holy pointless comment lamar...or are you implying that the US supplied the sandinistas with those weapons too?
|1.30.08 @ 2:24AM|#
Cesar-because Clinton=Great Satan in the mind of many on the
right.
I don't think anyone on the right ever considered Clinton great in
any way.
-jcr
B|1.30.08 @ 11:28AM|#
"....Cuba and begins the hard work of redrawing Hollywood's
false image of "Castro-as-beneficent-leader."
It is not just Hollywood that has portrayed Castro as a beneficent
leader. There are people on this site who have done yeoman's work
in that regard, toiling away to ensure Castro is seen as a great
man. Morons like joe, and his ridiculous exaltations of Cuba's
healthcare system, come to mind immediately.
|1.30.08 @ 10:36PM|#
The slain pilots of BTTR got exactly what they deserved. They were warned repeatedly by both the U.S and the Cuban government not to fly in Cuban airspace. That slimeball Basulto delibertly put his comrads in harms way. Too bad the Cubans didn't get him!
DC|1.30.08 @ 11:22PM|#
The evidence supporting US claims that the BTTR planes were shot
down in international airspace is incomplete and inconsistent.
Critical portions of the evidence supporting Cuban
claims--specifically, large portions of the transcript of Cuban
communications between the fighter pilots and their ground
controller-were either ignored or suppressed in the ICAO report. A
US air defense expert, some years later at the so-called Miami spy
trials, was able to determine, from what was apparently a complete
transcript, that the BTTR planes were indeed shot down in Cuban
territory. Even claims that these were truly civilian aircraft are
tenuous. As corroborated by the same expert, they had US Air Force
markings and had previously been engaged in illegal, military-style
psychological warfare operations (psyops) against the Cuban
government. The planes used were similar to those used by the US
Air Force in the Vietnam War for just this purpose. And on the day
of the shootdown, a formation of three such planes was personally
led by an admitted anti-Cuban terrorist! Can there be any doubt
that the US Air Force today would not hesitate to shoot down such a
formation, piloted by known enemies and terrorists, headed toward
Washington DC, and refusing to heed warnings from civil air traffic
controllers to turn away?
For details, references, etc. see "Human Rights / The BTTR
Shootdown Revisited" at my website.
Is a comrad something like a g|1.31.08 @ 7:40PM|#
You know Curt, if you wanted to use such socialism-associated words like "comrades", it would help your fellow travellers if you could at least spell it right. The rest of your post is also as shitty.
|1.31.08 @ 8:03PM|#
"...can't have a debate about Cuba without having one of the
dictator's apologist..."
Sorry DC, but we reached our thread limit for castro-apologist when
av2ts showed up. After all, someone who says
that the reason multiple parties are not allowed in Cuba is simply
because the "CIA...routinely corrupted multi-party elections" is in
some serious denial or is being bankrolled by the Cuban government
itself.
After all, even that other country that is "besieged, as Cuba is,
by that belligerent superpower to its north", Venezuela, goes thru
the notions of elections and even 'allows' multiple parties.
People like you are disgusting for using your own personal freedom
to propagate the lies of a government that restricts the freedoms
of its people.
Site comments/questions:
Media Inquiries and Reprint Permissions:
(310) 367-6109
Editorial & Production Offices:
3415 S. Sepulveda Blvd.
Suite 400
Los Angeles, CA 90034
(310) 391-2245