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One More From Chesapeake
In his interview with the Virginian-Pilot, Ryan Frederick said he was into gardening and landscaping, and that one reason he had the grow lamps is that he was learning how to grow young Japanese Maple trees.
In our comments section, "Kap" points out that the leaves of Japanese Maples look a lot like marijuana leaves. To an untrained eye, one wonders if a very young Japanese Maple (the kind that would require a grow lamp) might resemble a marijuana plant.
Could the informant have spotted the young trees in Frederick's garage, then mistakenly reported them to the police as marijuana plants, triggering the raid?
UPDATE: I just tipped of a Virginian-Pilot reporter on the Japanese Maple leaves and the possibility that the informant was responsible for the earlier break-in at Frederick's home, given the timing of the break-in and the information contained in the search warrant that the informant had been in the home 72 hours prior to the raid.
He told a couple of interesting things that didn't appear in the paper's interview with Frederick. First, Frederick told the reporter that as the police were taking him out of the house in handcuffs, he told them he was sorry, and that he was scared because his house had been burglarized earlier in the week. According to the reporter, Frederick says the police told him they not only knew about the burglary, they knew who had done it. Neither the reporter nor Frederick made the connection that the person who broke in could well also be the informant.
I'm starting to think now that that's the case. Frederick also told the reporter he rarely has visitors, and couldn't think of anyone who had been in his home that week.
As for the plants, the reporter confirmed that Frederick did actually own young Japanese Maple trees, in addition to tomatoes (which have also in the past been mistaken for marijuana, leading to drug raids) and several other plants. The guy was a gardening hobbyist.
Frederick also believes the cops found about three joints in his home.
I would be very suspicious if the police olice were to suddenly announce, a week later, that they did indeed find marijuana plants in Frederick's garage, too.
Here are a few questions I have for Chesapeake PD:
• Who was the informant? Under what circumstances did he hand over this information? Has he assisted the police in other cases?
• Did police tell Frederick at the scene that they know who broke into his home three days before the raid? Do they know? If so, was it the same person who tipped them off?
• If so, did he break in to Frederick's home with instruction from the police, or on his own accord?
• How much marijuana was found in the home? Could we get a definitive yes or no on whether marijuana plants were found, as indicated would be found in the search warrant?
• What sort of police work was done to coroborrate the informant's tip before conducting the raid?
• If there were no marijuana plants found in the home, did police find Japanese Maple plants? Tomato plants? Other evidence that Frederick was a gardening enthusiast, as he says?
|1.25.08 @ 3:30PM|#
and why wasn't the warrant limited to the garage if that is where this grow operation was supposedly happening?
Episiarch|1.25.08 @ 3:33PM|#
If that's what happened, Radley, then it means that they
conducted a violent raid that got somebody killed without doing any
other investigation whatsoever, such as a stakeout, checking with
local stores that supply the lights, etc.
Which doesn't surprise me at all. In fact, it is my belief that
since officers find these raids exciting and fun, they will do it
for any seemingly slightly valid reason that crosses their
desk.
Which--frighteningly--can include a moron of an informer thinking
they saw some weed. What next? Somebody sees my SKS and thinks it
violates Connecticut's assault weapons rules, so they call the cops
and they raid my house without checking that everything's
legal?
drawnasunder|1.25.08 @ 3:35PM|#
Interesting.
If I ever decide to farm pot, before I buy any grow equipment, I
will make sure to buy some of that Japanese maple first. Excellent
cover.
Anonymo the Anonymous|1.25.08 @ 3:40PM|#
If I ever decide to farm pot, before I buy any grow
equipment, I will make sure to buy some of that Japanese maple
first. Excellent cover.
Jan. 28, 2008: ONDCP head John Waters calls for a nationwide ban
and immediate confiscation of all Japanese maple plants.
Jan. 29: Sen. John McCain introduces a bill to declare war on
Japan.
|1.25.08 @ 3:45PM|#
I used to work for a landscaper. Japanese Maples were an endless source of amusement for us stoners.
Derrick|1.25.08 @ 3:46PM|#
Could the informant have spotted the young trees in
Frederick's garage, then mistakenly reported them to the police as
marijuana plants, triggering the raid?
Who cares? That is pussy-footing around the real issue, which is
that the dude should be able to grow marijuana if he damn well
wants to.
Abdul|1.25.08 @ 3:48PM|#
Once the informant realizes how closely oregano resembles pot, no pizza place in Virginia will be safe.
|1.25.08 @ 3:49PM|#
Could the informant have spotted the young trees in
Frederick's garage, then mistakenly reported them to the police as
marijuana plants, triggering the raid?
Doesn't matter. Got the fucker now.
Taktix®|1.25.08 @ 3:50PM|#
Which--frighteningly--can include a moron of an informer
thinking they saw some weed.
That's why, when I move into a new neighborhood, I make sure to
poison all the nebby old ladies...
the innominate one|1.25.08 @ 3:52PM|#
Anonymo, isn't that much the reason it is illegal to grow hemp in the US?
|1.25.08 @ 3:54PM|#
That's why, when I move into a new neighborhood, I make sure
to poison all the nebby old ladies...
A twis on "Arsenic And Old Lace"? Classy.
Kap|1.25.08 @ 3:54PM|#
And I didn't buy that cultivar mainly because I wanted something that clearly was red, unlike some other species.
To clarify my comment in the
other thread, I was being sarcastic; I actually did buy a
red maple specifically because I was worried about this happening,
as I live in downtown Houston in a neighborhood with a lot of
artists/weirdos/drugheads and I sleep with a gun within
reach.
At the time I was suspecting myself of overreacting and being
guilty of anti-libertarian cowardice.
Amazing. And sad.
|1.25.08 @ 3:58PM|#
Don't laugh, Hershey's pulled Ice Breaker Pacs because they supposedly looked like street drugs. To a politician, I'd imagine outlawing the Japanese Maple isn't out of the question.
Kap|1.25.08 @ 3:59PM|#
And Radley, it wouldn't take a "very young" Japanese maple, many of the garden varieties are bred as "dwarf" varieties that don't grow more than 5' tall even when they are decades old.
The Democratic Republican|1.25.08 @ 4:01PM|#
innominate -- I have read and heard that hemp was outlawed at the behest of the cotton companies. Some guy had just invented a streamlined process for harvesting hemp that made it hugely inefficient to pick cotton. And they didn't want the competition. But that could all be BS.
Kap|1.25.08 @ 4:03PM|#
(off topic) koi are illegal in most of Australia. This month's "Koi Nations" magazine has an article on folks down under with illegal (and hidden from the sky) koi ponds. Complete with silhouette photos of the interviewees.
Fluffy|1.25.08 @ 4:08PM|#
Who wants to bet that the informant is a burglar who has
committed multiple burglaries in the area, was caught, and during
interrogation said, "Hey, if you give me a deal I can hand you this
major grower whose house I broke into a few days ago..."
And the cops jumped at it.
Episiarch|1.25.08 @ 4:11PM|#
And the cops jumped at it.
And somebody is dead. Frederick is just so very, very lucky that he
isn't.
|1.25.08 @ 4:11PM|#
Fluffy, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if your scenario is
exactly what happened.
But, since Frederick is white, I bet joe doesn't give a fuck if he
gets the chair.
(did I say that? shame on me.)
|1.25.08 @ 4:13PM|#
According to the reporter, Frederick says the police told
him they not only knew about the burglary, they knew who had done
it. Neither the reporter nor Frederick made the connection that the
person who broke in could well also be the informant.
Lessee: Guy breaks into someone's house, gets caught on something
else, says to cops "If you let me off, I'll tell you where there's
a grow-op", cops make the deal, cops raid the house ....
This just gets more depressing all the time.
J***s H. Murphy F*****g C****t.
jimmydageek|1.25.08 @ 4:14PM|#
I see the updates. When I first saw the story I immediately wondered if it would be unreasonable to suspect that the informant was actually the person who broke into the place three days earlier. I dismissed the idea as far-fetched. Funny that it might not be after all.
R C Dean|1.25.08 @ 4:15PM|#
Who wants to bet . . .
My thought exactly. Although I can't rule out the idea that the
cops put him up to breaking into this guy's house, but they would
only do that if they were already suspicious of him for something,
and it doesn't sound like they were (no nattering on about a
long-term investigation. . .).
I'm wondering, though, if there's any kind of murder/manslaughter
charge for the informant. He negligently provided information that
led to the death of a cop, after all.
Disgruntled|1.25.08 @ 4:16PM|#
If you think oregano looks like pot, you need a new dealer. I
recommend the guy I get all my pot from. His name is John Walters
and he lives near DC. I also hear he's got a lot of guns and a
kiddie porn operation in the basement.
Actually, I'm feeling guilty about all of that. Maybe I should tip
off the cops...
|1.25.08 @ 4:17PM|#
Nick
Very unfair to joe.
He may not agree with us on taxation and property issues, but he's
always been on our side on drug and civil liberties issues.
|1.25.08 @ 4:18PM|#
Aresen my man, there is no way - no fucking way - you're going to be able to keep to your 'no online profanity' resolution. I give it another two weeks, tops.
|1.25.08 @ 4:19PM|#
Disgruntled | January 25, 2008, 4:16pm | #
If you think oregano looks like pot, you need a new dealer. I recommend the guy I get all my pot from. His name is John Walters and he lives near DC. I also hear he's got a lot of guns and a kiddie porn operation in the basement.
Actually, I'm feeling guilty about all of that. Maybe I should tip off the cops...
I like the way your Disgruntled mind works.
|1.25.08 @ 4:20PM|#
Here are a few questions I have for Chesapeake
PD:
I said it on the other thread, but I think the single most
important question for the police is:
If you had burst in and Ryan Frederick had been pointing a gun at
your men, trying to evaluate whether they were indeed police, would
you shoot him before he shot you?
Bingo|1.25.08 @ 4:21PM|#
Wow. If Fluffy's scenario is what happened this thing is pretty depraved. A man lost his life because a criminal mistakenly identified drugs in one of his victims houses.
|1.25.08 @ 4:22PM|#
When I first saw the story I immediately wondered if it
would be unreasonable to suspect that the informant was actually
the person who broke into the place three days earlier. I dismissed
the idea as far-fetched.
Put me on that list, as well. I started thinking along those lines
in the very beginning, and scolded myself for being a paranoid
ninny.
Disgruntled|1.25.08 @ 4:24PM|#
Dave W-Probably. The situation was inherently dangerous to all
parties. Given that, maybe the frequent use of no-knock raids
should be re-evaluated. Or maybe even the drug war, especially as
applied to pot.
Seems I've heard folks around here say similar things.
|1.25.08 @ 4:24PM|#
A man lost his life because a criminal mistakenly identified
drugs in one of his victims houses.
The longer they don't say who the informant was, the more it looks
like that is what happened.
Episiarch|1.25.08 @ 4:24PM|#
Wow. If Fluffy's scenario is what happened this thing is
pretty depraved. A man lost his life because a criminal mistakenly
identified drugs in one of his victims houses.
It's worse than that (if true): a man is dead because the cops
thought it was more important to stop someone from growing a
plant than to put away a thief.
Ponder that one for a minute.
SJE|1.25.08 @ 4:28PM|#
Note, there was breaking and entering, but no theft, and it
occured while Frederick was out of the house. Doesn't sound like a
regular burgular.
I wonder if this "burglar" is actually someone who does this for
the police, as a way of establishing probable cause for a
warrant.
If so, the whole basis of the warrant could be found invalid.
Anyway, there is whole lot of 'splaining to do.
|1.25.08 @ 4:30PM|#
Dave W-Probably.
well, yeah, we all know they would have shot him, but I think the
important part is to either make the police say it, or make them
evade the question with a transparent lie.
|1.25.08 @ 4:30PM|#
"As for the plants, the reporter confirmed that Frederick
did actually own young Japanese Maple trees, in addition to
tomatoes (which have also in the past been mistaken for marijuana,
leading to drug raids) and several other plants."
I once saw a policeman rummage through a tomato garden in someone's
back yard.
|1.25.08 @ 4:39PM|#
I'm a bit of an amateur botanist myself. I grow bonsai and i have two japanese maple bonsai, 4 or 5 years old. I spend a lot of energy preparing my soil and fertilizers.(i mix my soil from several different components and sift each to control particle size) last year i was pulled over for a minor traffic violation right after a trip to the nursery. The cop wanted to search me and my vehicle because i had some pots and soil. He even called backup.
Bingo|1.25.08 @ 4:40PM|#
That Virginian Pilot interview is just fucking awful. What a stupid situation, something like this should never have happened.
|1.25.08 @ 4:41PM|#
Guy in North Braddock, PA is suing the cops who broke into his
apartment and Tasered him.
They claimed they were responding to a silent alarm. Guy claims
they Tasered him twice more even after he showed ID proving he
lived there.
Episiarch|1.25.08 @ 4:42PM|#
I once saw a policeman rummage through a tomato garden in
someone's back yard.
It's pretty amazing that cops, who generally have little to no
education, are taken seriously in court when they talk about seeing
various plants or drugs. I can confuse oxycontin with baby aspirin
if I'm not careful, and I know what I'm doing.
|1.25.08 @ 4:44PM|#
I refused to let them search my car for close to an hour. Then they let me go with a ticket for expired registration and a damn seatbelt ticket which i am still paying off.
|1.25.08 @ 4:47PM|#
I'm beginning the think the Aerogarden I got for Xmas might not have been the best gift. Especially since I have ziploc bags, catnip, ammonia, cold medicine, charcoal, a tobacco pipe and who knows what else lying around the place.
|1.25.08 @ 4:48PM|#
I'm wondering, though, if there's any kind of murder/manslaughter charge for the informant. He negligently provided information that led to the death of a cop, after all.
If there's any justice in the world there would be.
And heads need to roll at the police department.
Ron Bailey keeps posting life-extension stories and then Radley
posts this stuff that makes me wonder if I'd want to live
an extended life in a world where this shit happens.
Fred|1.25.08 @ 4:49PM|#
Before we get all worked up about this, keep in mind, he was a criminal, he was found with some joints, which is currently illegal. Also, he killed a cop, which, regardless of the circumstances, is probably a strict liability crime.
|1.25.08 @ 4:50PM|#
Does it really matter if he was growing pot or not?
Either way the dude is fucked. He shot a cop while the cop was
busting into his house. I don't think Cory Maye was growing dope
either and he was still convicted.
|1.25.08 @ 4:51PM|#
Fred,
who the hell isn't a criminal? With the government's involvement in
every small aspect of american life, it's pretty much impossible
not to be a criminal. Hell, our last few presidents have admitted
to smoking pot.
"regardless of the circumstances"
Bullshit. self defense is self defense.
Geoff Nathan|1.25.08 @ 4:52PM|#
I have a beautiful, six-foot tall Japanese maple on my front lawn, and they can take it away from me when they pry it out of my cold fingers (it's 11 @#$&&!! degrees here right now).
|1.25.08 @ 4:53PM|#
It's pretty amazing that cops, who generally have little to
no education, are taken seriously in court when they talk about
seeing various plants or drugs.
What do you mean by "little or no education". Many of Motowns
finest possess a High School diploma from Detroit Public Schools.
Therefore you have to assume that many are functionally
literate.
|1.25.08 @ 4:54PM|#
Before we get all worked up about this, keep in mind, he was
a criminal, he was found with some joints, which is currently
illegal. Also, he killed a cop, which, regardless of the
circumstances, is probably a strict liability crime.
Thanks Fred, we need more people like you to remind us what a truly
great nation this is becoming. I'm sure glad we still have the
death penalty to deter these hardened criminal types from defending
their "private" property.
|1.25.08 @ 4:55PM|#
This case is so everything.
Innocent victim
Warrant issued solely on the basis of unnamed informant.
No knock raid.
Dead cop.
Frame up/cover up after the fact.
Keep pushing Radley. This case puts the lie to the drug war tactics
best.
|1.25.08 @ 4:55PM|#
J sub D,
after spending some time over at those policelink forums, i have to
say, it seems most of them operate at grade school level.
|1.25.08 @ 4:56PM|#
What do you mean by "little or no education". Many of
Motowns finest possess a High School diploma from Detroit Public
Schools. Therefore you have to assume that many are functionally
literate.
Or at least know what pot looks like.
|1.25.08 @ 4:57PM|#
I have a beautiful, six-foot tall Japanese maple on my front
lawn, and they can take it away from me when they pry it out of my
cold fingers (it's 11 @#$&&!! degrees here right
now).
My brother lost two Japanese maples during an unusually nasty cold
spell (-15 degrees). If it gets much colder you should take
precautions. Those things are valuable.
|1.25.08 @ 4:57PM|#
What do you mean by "little or no education". Many of
Motowns finest possess a High School diploma from Detroit Public
Schools.
OK. Make it just "no edukashun".
|1.25.08 @ 5:00PM|#
Did police tell Frederick at the scene that they know who
broke into his home three days before the raid? Do they know? If
so, was it the same person who tipped them off?
The questions on my mind are: If they know, how do they know? And
has he been arrested? If not, why not? If so, why didn't they tell
Frederick "we got the guy who broke into your house".
This whole thing stinks. What stinks most is that the whole thing
looks to be SOP for the police. Except the part about the dead
cop.
I wonder, if he hadn't shot a cop, thus bringing media attention,
would he have been routinely framed and convicted?
|1.25.08 @ 5:03PM|#
Pinette,
The thing that occurred to me after spending time in the policelink
forums, is that the cops seem to blame civilians for the fact that
they have no credibility with civilians when incidents like this
happen. No one here believes the cops have told the whole story in
this case (or are about to do so), and somehow the fact that we
don't believe them is our fault.
thoreau|1.25.08 @ 5:04PM|#
As has been said many times, this seems to be the most dangerous way to do a raid. I'm surprised that more cops don't speak out against those who are sending them to do a raid in the most dangerous way possible.
|1.25.08 @ 5:07PM|#
I know you're probably funning us, Fred but,
Also, he killed a cop, which, regardless of the circumstances, is probably a strict liability crime.
is simply not true.
There have been a number of cases of defendents being aquitted in
such cases. Depending on the defendant jurors can be quite
sympathetic.
Episiarch|1.25.08 @ 5:07PM|#
Dr. T, I don't think the cops have a problem with the raids at
all. For non-SWAT cops it is exciting, and for SWAT cops it's a
chance to a) do what they train for (which everyone naturally wants
to do) and b) justify their budget and existence.
I seriously doubt that pressure to stop these will come from
cops.
|1.25.08 @ 5:09PM|#
smokeyJoe,
true story. The attitude over there is that it is preposterous to
suggest a cop may be lying. In fact, I was locked out and had my
profile suspended specifically for suggesting that a cop may be
lying. And i didn't directly call him a liar, i just stated that i
didn't believe him.
|1.25.08 @ 5:14PM|#
The thing that occurred to me after spending time in the
policelink forums, is that the cops seem to blame civilians for the
fact that they have no credibility with civilians when incidents
like this happen.
LEOs -
If large numbers of intelligent informed people think that you as a
group are not to be trusted, maybe you should ask yourself why that
is.
Pet peeve - Unless they're MPs, cops are civilians, just like the
rest of us.
Steve Verdon|1.25.08 @ 5:18PM|#
Pet peeve - Unless they're MPs, cops are civilians, just
like the rest of us.
Actually I think it is more than a pet peeve. The police see
themselves as seperate from "civilians" how long before different
becomes better/superior/preferred? This kind of thinking is
something that should be discouraged in police departments since it
can lead to an us vs. them mentality which is what can lead to us
"civilians" not liking/trusting the cops.
|1.25.08 @ 5:19PM|#
thoreau
It's just that memories are short.
Back in the late 80s/early 90s the was a rash of raids gone wrong
in central Florida.
The combination of innocent citizens getting killed, a cop getting
shot and a number of home invasions where the perps posed a cops to
gain entry seemed to lead to a rethinking and restrategising for,
oh, about a month and a half. Then it was back to normal.
Actually, I'm kidding. For about a year or so it really seemed like
some uncharacteristically sensible talk was coming out of central
Florida police agencies. But like I say memories are short.
And, J sub D. that "civilian" thing is a pet peeve of mine as
well.
Pinette, I know a few defense attorneys, and they all say that cops
are notorious for giving false testimony, either as a result of
error or out and out perjury. And they give example after example
of blatant cases.
Episiarch|1.25.08 @ 5:20PM|#
This kind of thinking is something that should be
discouraged in police departments since it can lead to an us vs.
them mentality which is what can lead to us "civilians" not
liking/trusting the cops.
Well, that's already happened, Steve. You're a little late. In my
observations of my fellow "citizens", cop-hate is more widespread
than I have ever seen in my life.
|1.25.08 @ 5:21PM|#
I just read the comments on the Virginian-Pilot page. HOLY FUCK. What a bunch of Red White n Blue douche bags. I can't believe how many people are still beating the "He was growing pot, he knew he was shooting at cops, the cops can do no wrong Rah rah" drum.
|1.25.08 @ 5:22PM|#
I have not had very good experiences with the police. I always feel like they talk to me with some "I could crush you and nobody would accuse me of wrongdoing" vibe... and yes, that goes for BEFORE I started reading reason or other libertarian literature too.
|1.25.08 @ 5:23PM|#
Warren -
Being a major naval outlet, I wager that people in Virginia
Beach/Norfolk/Chesapeak/Hampton Roads are more prone to obeying
authority than your average american.
|1.25.08 @ 5:24PM|#
"Frederick says one reason he was frightened was that three days
prior to the shooting, someone had broken into his house, rummaged
through his belongings, but didn't take anything. The search
warrant says that the confidential informant was in Frederick's
home within 72 hours of the raid. Could it be that the informant
was the one who broke into Frederick's house?"
This reminded me of "The Diary of Anne Frank". The Franks were sent
to the concentration camps because a burglar was able to turn them
over to the Gestapo in exchange for his freedom.
|1.25.08 @ 5:25PM|#
Re: police integrity and propensity to lie.
this is straight out of the PL forums.
"I know. I figured someone was going to ask it so I did. As my old
LT. once said " it is not what you do, but how you said you did
it."
that was said by a cop in a very interesting thread found
here:
http://www.policelink.com/discussions/32/topics/7763
I'm 'Pine' on that forum by the way.
Heinrick|1.25.08 @ 5:31PM|#
"If I ever decide to farm pot, before I buy any grow equipment,
I will make sure to buy some of that Japanese maple first."
Right a perfect cover....until a search turns up pot plants.
highnumber|1.25.08 @ 5:40PM|#
I realize that this is neither the best time or place to speak
well of police officers, but here goes...
Most police officers are good people, just like most of us are good
people. Under relatively normal circumstances (normal for the cop,
not us), like a traffic stop or when investigating a minor criminal
event, if you treat them with the respect that you would like to be
treated with, most of them will respond in kind.
This has nothing to do with these kinds of circumstances that Balko
reports on, but in the comments on Balko's pieces, almost
invariably commenters use that same kind of "us vs them" logic that
leads to the kinds of circumstances that Balko reports on.
|1.25.08 @ 5:54PM|#
In the situation I was referring to, I think it was just
somebody across the fence. If you looked over the fence, before the
tomatoes ripened, they looked like little pot plants back there. I
think somebody who didn't like the stoners* that lived there just
looked over the fence and figured the stoners were growing pot
plants in their back yard.
So they sent a cop back there to look. So, later, I was talking to
the stoner neighbors, and I asked 'em if they noticed the cop going
through the plants in their back yard a few weeks ago. They said
the cops never talked to them, and they really were tomato plants,
so that cop, anyway, knew the difference between a pot plant and a
tomato plant. The stoners never heard anything about it.
I haven't been following all of Balko's posts on this, so maybe
this has already been said a hundred times, but this might explain
why they couldn't arrest the guy when he wasn't home and then
search his house?
Maybe they didn't have enough information to arrest him--just
enough evidence or testimony to get a warrant to search his
house.
*They drove a stoner car. They had stoner jobs. They wore stoner
clothes. They had stoner hair. They listened to stoner music. They
were stoners.
highnumber|1.25.08 @ 6:15PM|#
Hey, [blanky]!
This may shock you to hear, but every single person you meet, cops
included, every one of them, without exception, is another person,
just like you. They live, they love, they die. They like some
things, they don't like some others, just like you. (Here, insert
some treacly but true saying about love being stronger than
hate.)
I gotta say that I love Balko's reporting, but I rarely read the
comments, because I get so frustrated with the hateful, destructive
attitudes that show up. Distrust authority - that's fine. Say that
the system is all screwed up - that's true. But don't dehumanize
your fellow humans - that's the kind of thinking that starts these
messes in the first place. Be better.
|1.25.08 @ 6:25PM|#
From Mr Balko's update:
If so, did he break in to Frederick's home with instruction
from the police, or on his own accord?
There is NO way the police are going to admit that they told the
guy to break in, if that's what happened.
|1.25.08 @ 6:38PM|#
There is NO way the police are going to admit that they told
the guy to break in, if that's what happened.
The informant could.
|1.25.08 @ 6:42PM|#
This may shock you to hear, but every single person you
meet, cops included, every one of them, without exception, is
another person, just like you. They live, they love, they die. They
like some things, they don't like some others, just like you.
(Here, insert some treacly but true saying about love being
stronger than hate.)
Fry: So, who's that weird-looking guy?
Bender: That's a human.
Fry: What's he do?
Bender: Eh, the usual human stuff. He laughs, he learns, he
loves.
Fry: Boring.
From episode "I, Roommate" of Futuruama
If so, did he break in to Frederick's home with instruction
from the police, or on his own accord?
No, but maybe if he tells the FBI that
that's what happened, they'll let him go.
thefncrow|1.25.08 @ 6:42PM|#
highnumber, the problem with your formulation is that, whenever
we actually see these stories about illegal and unethical behavior
by police, you never tend to see stories that say that the bad
apple was turned in by his fellow officers.
I'd understand if you don't remember, because the use of this
excuse in politics of late has ignored the last half of this
saying, but the "few bad apples" quote goes as follows:
"A few bad apples spoils the whole bunch".
The blue wall of silence is real, and it transforms what could just
be a few bad apples into a whole bunch gone bad. I'll be more
willing to re-evaluate this once we see the end of the blue wall of
silence. Until then, those "regular, normal" cops who aid and abet
the actions of their crooked brethren are just as culpable and
untrustworthy.
That's not to say they're all bad, but between the crooked cops,
the management which continues to employ the crooked cops, and the
officers who continue to tolerate the behavior of the crooked cops,
I'm not inclined to believe that, when I encounter a police
officer, I'm dealing with Serpico instead of Vic Mackey.
|1.25.08 @ 6:55PM|#
highnumber
But don't dehumanize your fellow humans - that's the kind of
thinking that starts these messes in the first place.
Amen.
|1.25.08 @ 7:01PM|#
...you never tend to see stories that say that the bad apple
was turned in by his fellow officers.
That is why people don't like, trust or respect cops. For every cop
that brutalizes a citizen, there are 10 who know about it and do
nothing. For every cop who perjures himself on the stand, there are
others that know and do nothing. The LEO community has, in large
part, adopted an Us vs, Them mentality that allows them to observe
criminal actions by their "brothers in blue" and justify to
themselves that it is acceptable to tolerate it. Even acceptable to
cover up for a fellow officer. I don't have the solution to the
problem, but dammit, America has got to start discussing this. It's
getting worse not better.
ktc2|1.25.08 @ 7:01PM|#
Last time I got pulled over for speeding (I was for sure) the
cop asked me if I knew why he pulled me over.
I said, "Of course, the state needs more of my money and you're the
state authorized highway robber."
He wasn't amused.
|1.25.08 @ 7:08PM|#
I doubt this kind of behavior will change until they raid another LEO's house and someone dies.
highnumber|1.25.08 @ 7:26PM|#
thefncrow, J sub D,
It's not wrong to be outraged. It's not wrong to push for and
demand change. It's not wrong to hold people responsible for their
actions or their lack of action.
It is wrong to act like police officers aren't people like the rest
of us. Treat them as such.
These stories drive me nuts, too, but by my morals, we have an
obligation to treat our fellow humans right, and that does not go
away when others behave badly. Aside from that, practically
speaking, adopting that same antagonistic attitude that some of the
cops have just feeds their antagonistic attitude. It's a stupid
cycle. Break it.
highnumber|1.25.08 @ 7:29PM|#
Anyway, the important thing here is that this poor kid is in a lot of trouble right now, one man is dead, and, from the evidence we have, all for no good reason. This is the greater outrage.
|1.25.08 @ 7:37PM|#
It is wrong to act like police officers aren't people like
the rest of us. Treat them as such.
Highnumber, You don't need to remind me of that. This was
from the first post about this disaster's comments. I'm a
civilized, though sometimes angry, miscreant.
|1.25.08 @ 7:43PM|#
Anyway, the important thing here is that this poor kid is in
a lot of trouble right now, one man is dead, and, from the evidence
we have, all for no good reason. This is the greater
outrage.
No argument. I feel for Ryan Frederick, and extend my sympathies to
Officer Jarrod Shivers' family. The War on Drugs
Sanity has got to stop. The militarization of the police has got to
stop.
Ventifact|1.25.08 @ 7:52PM|#
TrickyVic -- A friend of mine lived across the street from a group of people who dealed out of their house. That dealer's house was nextdoor to a house two police officers lived in. But, thank goodness, there is no SWAT team in that town.
|1.25.08 @ 8:01PM|#
highnumber,
I do completely agree that most cops are good people. And I'm sure
that most become police officers for very noble and honorable
reasons. And I also understand that they risk their lives to serve
their communities as best that they know how.
I also agree that the lives destroyed over three joints is
extremely tragic. The fact that I think pot should be legal, does
not matter, no one should be killed over three joints.
But I absolutely can not understand why there is such an issue
within the police force when their tactics are called into
question.
I don't understand why the police struggle to omit it when an error
in judgment has been made.
It does not dishonor Officer Shivers' memory if facts come out that
suggest that this raid shouldn't have been committed. What does
dishonor his memory is breaking the law by concealing the facts of
the case so that no one will conclude that this raid should not
have happened.
highnumber|1.25.08 @ 8:02PM|#
J sub D,
I addressed you because you responded to the guy who responded to
me. I'm not meaning to really call anyone out. I think we're mostly
of the same mind. (You can use it this weekend. I'm not planning to
do much with it until Monday.)
|1.25.08 @ 8:03PM|#
B. Right of Entry Granted:
Animal Control Officers are hereby authorized to enter upon any
premises, excluding a
dwelling unit, in the City for the purpose of impounding animals
which they are
authorized herewith to impound, or for any other purpose authorized
by this Ordinance
and to confiscate food left for stray or homeless animals in
violation of this ordinance.
This is included in a new animal control ordinance in Dothan
Alabama. Reckon how much info the animal comtrol officers will
obtain for the WOD?
highnumber|1.25.08 @ 8:05PM|#
smokeyJoe,
I told J sub D that he could use the mind this weekend, so if you
need it you'll have to talk to him.
SIV|1.25.08 @ 8:20PM|#
I'm still reserving judgement on this case but if the cops sent the burglar in illegally to get evidence for the warrant I think it is time to remove the H&R ban on dancing on the "hero cop"'s grave.
|1.25.08 @ 8:23PM|#
Something that I have missed or hasn't been brought up is the
"right to be confronted by your accusser". Isn't that a portion of
the 6th Amendment?
The Sixth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution states, "In all
criminal prosecutions the accused shall enjoy the right … to be
confronted with the witnesses against him."
If so, why can't Mr. Frederick or his council ask to question the
informant? Is it only during court? I guess the 6th goes out the
window with the 4th and 5th and the 2nd too, I better stop here
before I get too angry.
/pretty much given up on Constitutional Rights to protect me from
any governmental excesses.
SIV|1.25.08 @ 8:32PM|#
This may shock you to hear, but every single person you
meet, violent rapists, serial child
murderers,kill-the-witnesses robbing crews, cops included,
every one of them, without exception, is another person, just like
you. They live, they love, they die. They like some things, they
don't like some others, just like you. (Here, insert some treacly
but true saying about love being stronger than hate.)
I am pretty fucking socially and politically conservative by
H&R standards but if the LEOs on the Chesapeake drug squad are
routinely using B n E men to gather evidence illegally for violent
drug raids then I put them in the same category as those I added to
highnumber's quote.
|1.25.08 @ 8:32PM|#
smokeyjoe,
You can use Highnumber's mind this weekend. I'm going trolling for
cheap, easy, stupid women, a mind will just cause me to cancel that
plan.
|1.25.08 @ 8:53PM|#
As has been said many times, this seems to be the most
dangerous way to do a raid. I'm surprised that more cops don't
speak out against those who are sending them to do a raid in the
most dangerous way possible.
thoreau, first, most of the time they are not that dangerous - they
typically target people with no record of violence like some guy
they think is growing pot or some poker-playing senior citizens. We
only hear about it when it turns out to be more dangerous than the
thugs anticipated. Secondly, they don't complain about being sent
on raids because they like conducting these military style
raids. They get to put on lots of cool gear, smash down doors and
carry some impressive firepower. Plus they get the added benefit of
an adrenaline rush compared to their otherwise boring daily
routine. I bet they have no shortage of volunteers for these raids
to the point that it is probably considered a perk to get assigned
to do a raid like this.
A better question to wonder about police is why we never hear any
of the so-called good cops speaking out against the abuses of power
by the "few bad apples". To those who keep repeating the mantra
that "of course most cops are good" I'd say any cop that doesn't
speak out when he sees something wrong, that either actively lies
to cover up, or even passively looks the other way, is in no way a
good human being much less a "good cop" and The absolute silence we
hear from the police is a pretty telling sign of just how many good
cops there really are.
|1.25.08 @ 8:56PM|#
Maybe the cops busted the guy when he broke into the house, and
the guy thinking he saw pot, offered the information in exchange
for being let go or something. The cops were itching for a raid and
favored moving quick over investigating.
Radley, I hope you get those questions answered. I'm sure you'll
keep us posted.
|1.25.08 @ 10:05PM|#
Wow, a cop just shot a cop up here.
Cops heard gun fire, found a guy with a gun, ordered the guy to
lower his weapon, the guy turned around and the cops shot him. The
guy was a cop. The Fox 5 website might have more info.
Dave W.|1.25.08 @ 10:41PM|#
Burglar popo:
http://www.projo.com/news/courts/content/ciresi_trial25_01-26-08_OC8OSLA_v11.250ea82.html
|1.25.08 @ 11:01PM|#
"It's pretty amazing that cops, who generally have little to no
education, are taken seriously in court when they talk about seeing
various plants or drugs."
Actually, many police departments require at least a bachelor's
degree for new recruits. That raises the question: what kind of
person would spend four years in college in order to work for a
rookie cop's starting salary?
Perhaps one with an authoritarian personality who craves a license
and a (small) paycheck to thug?
B|1.25.08 @ 11:23PM|#
"In his interview with the Virginian-Pilot, Ryan Frederick said
he was into gardening and landscaping, and that one reason he had
the grow lamps is that he was learning how to grow Japanese
maples."
In other, related news, the Brooklyn Bridge is for sale,
condiminiums are being built on prime land in the Everglades, and
Ron Paul didn't write the newsletters.
|1.26.08 @ 8:22AM|#
In his interview with the Virginian-Pilot, Ryan Frederick
said he was into gardening and landscaping, and that one reason he
had the grow lamps is that he was learning how to grow Japanese
maples.
The lack of triumphant press releases from the cops, usually
routine when they bust a big grow op, leads me to believe
him.
On what basis are you so skeptical, B?
|1.26.08 @ 8:23AM|#
Oh, and I might point out that your more rare cultivars of
Japanese maple fetch a pretty penny. I've got one that I paid
nearly $300 for.
If you've got the skill to grow them and the patience to let them
put some size on, you could have a nice little earner on your
hands.
Episiarch|1.26.08 @ 9:17AM|#
highnumber, yes, cops are humans too. So what? They are actively engaged in oppressing their fellow humans. They assist each other in doing so. Why the FUCK would I extend them any courtesy?
|1.26.08 @ 1:46PM|#
"They are actively engaged in oppressing their fellow
humans. They assist each other in doing so."
Quite right. I see LEO's covering up for each other just like in
the case of Rodney King, standing by and cheering or just watching
a fellow human getting the crap beat out of him.
It seems that we are at an impasse in the relationship between the
LEO's and the citizens.
The LEO's act like anyone they encounter on a raid is an enemy of
the state and not an American Citizen. The citizens can respond,
but their option are limited to the actions of Mr. Frederick or
just cowering in fear, even when the cops are screaming obscenities
and man-handling them and telling them lies to get them to talk
about the case.
If the cops want to act like victims, so be it. They chose a line
of work which has risks and responsibilities to the citizens they
are sworn to protect. This ain't soldiering, it's policework. In my
opinion, it's a calling that requires strength, patience and
compassion. Qualities I have found lacking in the latest version of
SWAT v. 2.5.
Citizens have rights and the LEO's have forgotten or were never
taught that they are public servants, not our overlords.
B|1.26.08 @ 9:02PM|#
"On what basis are you so skeptical, B"
I posted what I did merely to piss off some (most) of the people
that posted here. Why? Because frankly, it is disgusting how the
people on this website act like "agents of the state" ie the police
in this country are no better than the Gestapo in Nazi Germany. If
the police would have come out with a "triumphant press release",
to use your words, would you have believe them? I daresay the
answer to that is no, and even if they did, the same thing would
have happened on this site that always happens on this site. Sick
fucks would have implicitly (couldn't do it explicitly this time
because they were told they would be banned if they did) stated
that the guy had what was coming to him. That is why I take every
chance I get to tweak the people on this site who act like local
police commissioners are no better than Heinrich Himmler; the
retarded post right above mine is the perfect fucking example. The
police upheld a law, one that may be misguided yes, but that is
another argument, and we have assholes on this site that not only
call them oppressors but they revel in this guys death as well. The
following quote is exactly what I mean:
"highnumber, yes, cops are humans too. So what? They are actively
engaged in oppressing their fellow humans. They assist each other
in doing so. Why the FUCK would I extend them any courtesy?"
This pathetic piece of shit doesn't even allow that there are
decent cops doing an extremely dangerous job for lousy pay.
Instead, because a man may or may not have been wrongly arrested,
we have an ignorant asshole tarring all police officers as
jackbooted thugs who are nothing more than glorified
murderers.
And to the same little chickenshit who writes he won't extend any
courtesy to the police, he reminds me of those shitty little
countries who spend all day bashing the US, only to come groveling
when the shit hits the fan.
And you people wonder why, outside of your insignificant fucking
clique, no one listens to a damn thing you say.
|1.27.08 @ 1:19AM|#
What the hell is wrong with this country?!?!?
Good cops are dying everyday, but the death toll of citizens shot
by the law, beat, tased (tortured), wrongly arrested, lives
destroyed, etc. is high enough to eclipse them. What ever happened
to The constitution and the bill of rights? Can't lay all the blame
on the cops, although there are a small % that deserve their fair
share, it's the !@#$%& LAWYERS AND REPRESENTITIVES that write
the unconstitutional laws that shred the rights of average
citizens! Don't blame the stormtroopers, it's Darth Vader that
ordered the attack! Ziek Heil! long live big brother!
Kolohe|1.27.08 @ 4:48PM|#
Actually, many police departments require at least a
bachelor's degree for new recruits.
From what I can see, very few do. ("a handful" based on one NYT
article about Suffolk county wishing to instigate this
requirement). So those that do tend to be wealthier suburban
counties - you know, the type that need the least a high quality
police force.
I think the standard is something like the military: you don't need
college to get in, but you need a degree to stay in, or at least
get promoted.
|1.27.08 @ 10:20PM|#
Googlized
College my ass, you don't even have to be able to do math. Check
out that google link.
Here's a sample.
"According to the letter, applicants needed to score at least 70
percent on the mathematics section of the test. A review of the
scores showed that 57.34 percent of the black applicants passed,
compared to 88.91 percent of white applicants.
The Justice Department said the test had "a significant adverse
impact against both African-American applicants and Hispanic
applicants." It also said that the city failed to demonstrate that
its use of the mathematics test is job-related for an entry-level
police officer and is necessary to do the job."
|1.28.08 @ 11:20AM|#
Things won't change until the bad cop fears the good cop and not the other way around.
|1.28.08 @ 9:09PM|#
I know Ryan. He was developing an interest in gardening. He had recently installed koi ponds in his back yard complete with all the requisite equipment. Garage was largely cleaned out to make room for a work out area. Also, the police raided a house across the street from his earlier last year (reasonable to assume someone else would fill the dealer-gap). They thought there would be more than one person there the night they raided Ryan's house, which is why the "stand-off" happened. Ryan surrendered within minutes of the shooting, the police stayed posted shouting over the loud-speaker for the other person (nobody else there) to come out...a fact they learned after reentering the house a couple hours later. For an op this size, one would think the surveillence before the raid would confirm # of souls inside at least...
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