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Marketplace Actually Supports a Market
On Marketplace this morning, commentator Will Wilkinson calls for a common North American labor market:
Mexico's GDP per capita is about what Poland's was in 2004. That was the year Poland became a part of the E.U., and started sending a large flow of newly-legal migrant workers to a much wealthier Britain. This neither increased British unemployment, nor overtaxed social services.
It's been a boon to both the British and the Polish economies, and a higher percentage of Polish workers now circulate back home. Romania and Bulgaria are even poorer than Mexico, but they are now set to integrate their labor markets with the rest of the E.U. in seven years.
Read or listen here.
The much-missed Tim Cavanaugh demanded visaless borders back in 2006.
|1.9.08 @ 11:12AM|#
Hit & Run without Cavanaugh is like "Cabaret" without Liza
Minnelli.
...I understand he's been reduced to riding mass transit.
|1.9.08 @ 11:13AM|#
Marketplace Actually Supports a Market
I have a strong (and maybe irrational) dislike for Scott Jagow. He
makes markets sound like some phantom hoobily joobily (kinda like
Mitt Romney does). He always asks his guests the STUPIDEST
questions, but he seems to think they sound insightful. What makes
me madder is that the average listener might just think they
are.
I love Mordidas!|1.9.08 @ 11:13AM|#
But I am pretty sure that Poland was forced as a condition of
entry to the EU to crack down on corruption, install property
rights and rule of law?
Once those are in place, fewer people will want to leave
Poland.
Open borders with Mexico and their current system of
institutionalized corruption which drives away business will mean
that the only people left in Mexico would be 5 illegal alien Gringo
or European scuba instructors in Cancun.
Jerry|1.9.08 @ 11:21AM|#
Oh great, another topic to separate the paleo's from the cosmo's. Anyways, as somebody who lives in the Old World, I can say that I have nothing but respect for the Poles. They are family oriented, Catholic and hard working. Social democrats don't like them. And they are fun to have a beer with. The only thing I might add, is that is not necessarily better for them to have a legal status. Now they have to pay into all kind of expensive social security measures, which they are likely never to make use of.
DavidS|1.9.08 @ 11:29AM|#
Three things about Polish migration into the UK...
- Other EU countries (bar Ireland) held off from letting Poles (and
other workers from the newly admitted countries) in - so a
disproportionate number came to the UK.
- The influx was, I think, very close to the maximum rate that the
existing population were prepared to put up with. There were howls
of outrage, but they never quite reached critical mass.
- The EU has been surprisingly good at enabling this kind of
mobility.
R C Dean|1.9.08 @ 11:34AM|#
I suspect that the open borders with Eastern Europe are tolerated in the West largely because of the smokin' hotness of Eastern European women.
|1.9.08 @ 11:36AM|#
IF were are going to have free trade with our next door
neighbors, then the commodity known as labor has to be included.
Without that, genuine free trade is a myth.
Since I don't support open borders with Mexico at this time, it
logically follows that I don't support free trade with Mexico at
this time.
That sticks in my craw a bit, but the truth must be faced.
Especially about oneself.
I\'m not Tom Tancredo|1.9.08 @ 11:45AM|#
You may be right, RC Dean.
But do you remember that comic book that the Mexican goverment
distributed showing how to sneak into the US?
Based on that, illegal aliens looked like supermodels, strippers or
Chippendales Dancers.
How come we don't have more illegal aliens in this country that
look like Salma Hayek?
|1.9.08 @ 11:51AM|#
See I told you I was Right about how NAFTA would lead to the NorthAmericanUnion and the MexicanInvasion! Is the NAFTASuperHighway far behind or is it a StalkingHorse?
Episiarch|1.9.08 @ 11:55AM|#
It's OK, Will will impregnate Kerry soon and then she'll stop being a libertarian.
shecky|1.9.08 @ 11:59AM|#
It's still a mystery why anyone thinks freer markets must be approached bilaterally or not at all.
|1.9.08 @ 12:01PM|#
The only thing that I will guarantee you about this is that if it happens it will occur without any democratic input from the American people. This is how 'free-trade' agreements are passed, little or no press coverage and a quick vote with no input from the public.
|1.9.08 @ 12:06PM|#
I suspect that the open borders with Eastern Europe are
tolerated in the West largely because of the smokin' hotness of
Eastern European women.
You'd think the same would apply here considering the abundance of
smokin' hot latinas.
Mike Laursen|1.9.08 @ 12:09PM|#
This is how 'free-trade' agreements are passed, little or no
press coverage and a quick vote with no input from the
public.
Isn't that how everything is passed these days?
jp|1.9.08 @ 12:19PM|#
Marketplace Actually Supports a Market
I have a strong (and maybe irrational) dislike for Scott Jagow. He
makes markets sound like some phantom hoobily joobily (kinda like
Mitt Romney does). He always asks his guests the STUPIDEST
questions, but he seems to think they sound insightful. What makes
me madder is that the average listener might just think they
are.
YES YES YES!!!
Awesome headline, too!
|1.9.08 @ 12:22PM|#
I'm sorry but the statement
"This neither increased British unemployment, nor overtaxed social
services"
is wildly over-optimistic and could only come from a commentator
who has either never visited the UK or who has but only read The
Guardian whilst here.
Social services in towns along the M4 motorway corridor in the
South-East of England are creaking badly largely as a result of the
(estimated) 700,000 Poles now in the country. Most of these new
workers have no intention of staying long-term in the UK, they are
here to build a savings pot before returning home (who can blame
them?).
They are therefore willing to put up with living conditions (and
hence wages) that severely under-cut long-term residents. This is
welcomed both by the organisations who employ them and the
government, neither of whom now have to pay to correct the severe
skills shortages amongst the UK workforce.
The reason unemployment figures haven't risen is that it is so easy
in the UK to become economically inactive. There are some towns in
South Wales and Northern England where up to 25% of the working age
population is on disability benefit. This benefit is
extraordinarily easy to get, with payments higher than those
recieved if on unemployment benefit and excludes the recipient from
being included in the headline unemployment figures.
If you added 'official unemployed' and 'economically inactive
working age' together and compared those figures to most other
western economies, then you'll get a much better picture of our
supposedly healthy economy.
TLB|1.9.08 @ 12:23PM|#
It's pretty funny how Reason has gone from the hackery of
denying the NorthAmericanUnion to now promoting a
NorthAmericanUnion. I guess some word came down from somewhere or
something.
Here's a funny story about Will Wilkinson:
A few years ago I wrote a satire about "guest" programs and posted
it to a blogspot blog (jfsac.blogspot.com) then sent the link to
Reason magazine. The all-in-one version of that is here (thanks,
Arianna!).
What do you know, a couple weeks later a similar proposal found its
way into Reason magazine's pages, written by Will Wilkinson
(reason.com/news/show/32871.html).
I don't whether my satire inspired a real
proposal from Will Wilkinson or not, but it certainly is
quite a coinkydink.
|1.9.08 @ 12:35PM|#
The only thing that I will guarantee you about this is that if it happens it will occur without any democratic input from the American people. This is how 'free-trade' agreements are passed, little or no press coverage and a quick vote with no input from the public.
Americans will vote against free trade. But Americans will also
vote against any leader who fucks up the economy.
The trouble is, being against free trade fucks up the economy. So
American politicians have to decide if they would rather alienate
voters by voting for free trade, or if they would rather alienate
voters by destroying the economy.
Since they know that everyone hates free trade, but they know
everyone will hate them even more if they vote against free trade,
they try to pass free-trade agreements with as little fanfare as
possible.
|1.9.08 @ 12:40PM|#
Oh great, another topic to separate the paleo's from the
cosmo's.
That's easy:
Paleo == government intervention into the lives of the citizenry
should be restricted to preventing force and fraud.
Cosmo == Socialist Ends by Free Market Means.
jtuf|1.9.08 @ 12:43PM|#
Glad and amused to hear the news. So the EU is inspiring Americans to open their markets. I guess what goes arround comes arround.
Racist 2000|1.9.08 @ 1:17PM|#
That was the year Poland became a part of the E.U., and
started sending a large flow of newly-legal migrant workers to a
much wealthier Britain....It's been a boon to both the British and
the Polish economies
Wow, it's the exact same version of this old Polish joke:
"Did you hear about the Polack who moved to Britain?" He raised the
IQ of both countries."
|1.9.08 @ 1:19PM|#
It's pretty funny how Reason has gone from...
I don't think Reason's ever claimed to speak with one voice.
...Oh, and it's a lot harder when you have more than one issue.
Thomas Paine\'s Goiter|1.9.08 @ 1:26PM|#
OT: Kerry - excellent interview of Lant Pritchett in the last issue of the magazine. There have been so many good articles and interviews in the magazine in the last 4-6 months, Reason has actually become a great magazine for topics, not just from a libertarian perspective!
TLB|1.9.08 @ 2:55PM|#
Here's a fun quiz:
How do we define people like Will Wilkinson?
1. He's a patriotic American.
2. He's a "different kind of patriotic American", in the same way
that the Rosenbergs were.
3. He's not really an American at all.
Will Wilkinson|1.9.08 @ 3:02PM|#
How about:
4. He is an American who
questions the value of patriotism!
Paul|1.9.08 @ 3:16PM|#
This neither increased British unemployment, nor overtaxed
social services.
Even if they did, would anyone really notice?
|1.9.08 @ 3:21PM|#
4. He is an American who questions the value of
patriotism!
Yeah, I know, I know, I've read Vonnegut. A country is "just a
piece of real estate".
Of course, an alternate construction might be a country is a
"community writ large". I think I prefer the later - I'm not much
interested in being a member of a group prepared to sell me down
the river for the next better offer.
If I had neighbors like you, I'd be digging a moat behind my
rose-bushes, and filling it with alligators.....
First Little Pig|1.9.08 @ 3:31PM|#
While I am a supporter of open borders, I think the Poland =
Mexico math is nonsense. Both country's per capita GDP may well be
similar, but the distributions are completely different. Mexico is
host of largish number of multi-billionaires (including the world's
3dr or 4th richest individual) a sizeable upper class and a HUGE
impoverished underclass. Poland's wealth distribution is much much
flatter and abject poverty is, and has for decades has been,
low.
Want actually comparable numbers, try the GINI (distribution of
incomes, lower is flatter):
Mexico GINI: 46
United States GINI: 41
Poland: 34
Some 40% of Mexicans live below the poverty line while only 17% of
Poles do (UK is also 17% and the US is 12%)
Having spent time in both Mexico and Poland I can vouch that Poland
is much closer to the European economic norms than Mexico is to the
United States'.
jp|1.9.08 @ 3:35PM|#
Americans will vote against free trade. But Americans will
also vote against any leader who fucks up the economy.
The trouble is, being against free trade fucks up the economy. So
American politicians have to decide if they would rather alienate
voters by voting for free trade, or if they would rather alienate
voters by destroying the economy.
Since they know that everyone hates free trade, but they know
everyone will hate them even more if they vote against free trade,
they try to pass free-trade agreements with as little fanfare as
possible.
I was thinking the same thing.
|1.9.08 @ 5:51PM|#
A question for those who think it is obvious that a common North
American labor market is a bad idea... Where would you place labor
migration restrictions within the United States and what
would those restrictions be?
After all, given that such severe restrictions are unquestionably
appropriate between Mexico and the US, it is extraordinarily
unlikely that there is not some restriction that could be applied
within the US that would optimize whatever it is that the
restriction on Mexico is optimizing.
Whatever it is that makes impeding people's freedom to migrate,
reside, contract, and labor worthwhile in cases of international
migration surely applies somewhere within the US. There
are, after all, 2450 different state-to-state migration examples.
Will none of them be improved by applying the treatment
Mexico-to-US migration gets?
BakedPenguin|1.9.08 @ 6:17PM|#
MikeP, we need to keep those damn Delaware people in that state. Just sayin'.
greenish|1.9.08 @ 6:39PM|#
Of course, an alternate construction might be a country is a
"community writ large".
Wait, wait - and you were just accusing cosmopolitans of being
socialists?
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