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Two Righties on Romnian Theology
In a presidential race with more invocations of Ronald Reagan than his adopted son's radio show, Peggy Noonan wonders if the paladin of conservatism would survive in today's party:
I wonder if our old friend Ronald Reagan could rise in this party, this environment. Not a regular churchgoer, said he experienced God riding his horse at the ranch, divorced, relaxed about the faiths of his friends and aides, or about its absence. He was a believing Christian, but he spent his adulthood in relativist Hollywood, and had a father who belonged to what some saw, and even see, as the Catholic cult. I'm just not sure he'd be pure enough to make it in this party. I'm not sure he'd be considered good enough.
Sadly, Noonan is probably right. While not quite Barry "Kick Falwell Right in the Ass" Goldwater, Reagan would likely strike those propelling Huckleberry Huckabee to the top of polls in Iowa and New Hampshire as too inattentive to "religious issues." As Lou Cannon argued in the second volume of his peerless Reagan biography, as president he devoted little energy to "what was often called 'his social agenda.'" Cannon, who covered Reagan since his days as governor of California, concluded that "Some of the items on this agenda, like the call for a constitutional amendment to restore prayer in schools, were never more than throwaway lines intended to comfort the Religious Right or some other element of the conservative constituency."
On Romney's "I am Mormon, hear me roar" stump speech, in which he claimed, among other absurdities, that one could not be truly free absent religion, comes a good point from Charles, Hammer of the Krauts, in the Washington Post:
"Freedom requires religion," Romney declared, "just as religion requires freedom." But this is nonsense--as Romney then proceeded to demonstrate in that very same speech. He spoke of the empty cathedrals in Europe. He's right about that: Postwar Europe has experienced the most precipitous decline in religious belief in the history of the West. Yet Europe is one of the freest precincts on the planet. It is an open, vibrant, tolerant community of more than two dozen disparate nations living in a pan-continental harmony and freedom unseen in all previous European history.
From our June issue, Daniel McCarthy reviews John Patrick Diggins mildly revisionist take on the Gipper.
|12.14.07 @ 2:00PM|#
Reagan was the apotheosis of the post-New Deal conservatism that
existed for the purpose of being the opposition to the permanent
Democratic majority. He embodied its big-tent, fusionist
identity.
Then the Republicans became the majority party, and their
affirmative agenda turned out to be quite different.
|12.14.07 @ 2:06PM|#
IMHO, Reagan considered the religious right a bunch of ignorant yahoos who could be placated by lip service. It worked for him.
|12.14.07 @ 2:07PM|#
Religion doesn't make you "free," Romney, you silly goose.
We all know what truly
does make you free.
Anon|12.14.07 @ 2:09PM|#
Riggggght. Like any true conservative has a chance in today's well-funded left-wing smear atmosphere.
|12.14.07 @ 2:13PM|#
Riggggght. Like any true conservative has a chance in
today's well-funded left-wing smear atmosphere.
As soon as any true conservative actually enters the race, we could
test your hypothesis, anon.
Jonathan Blanks|12.14.07 @ 2:16PM|#
It is an open, vibrant, tolerant community of more than two
dozen disparate nations living in a pan-continental harmony and
freedom unseen in all previous European history.
I take the broader point, but I don't know if the Serbs and
Kosovars got the 'harmony' memo.
I'll take the under in the bet on whether Europe can go a quarter
century without a war on the continent.
|12.14.07 @ 2:20PM|#
I'd also say it's up for debate on how "free" Europeans are, from a libertarian perspective.
|12.14.07 @ 2:21PM|#
Riggggght. Like any true conservative has a chance in
today's well-funded left-wing smear atmosphere.
As soon as any true conservative actually enters the race, we could
test your hypothesis, anon.
That, and the appearance of a well-funded left-wing smear
atmosphere.
|12.14.07 @ 2:22PM|#
As Christian, Huckabe makes my flesh crawl. I would love to have been able to confront him when he gave that whole "Jesus is responsible for my rise in the polls" bullshit. Really? Does Jesus want you to be President? Was his purpose on earth to provide believers like you with worldly power and goods or to save your rotten stinking sin infested soul from eternal damanation? If Jesus wants you to be President, what does mean Guiliani and Romney and your other opponents? Unbeleivers? Heratics? Infidels? What an ignorant boob.
|12.14.07 @ 2:25PM|#
"That, and the appearance of a well-funded left-wing smear
atmosphere."
When did his opponents ever engage Reagan on the issues? They just
called him a dumb old man and an actor and a war monger and such.
If Reagan were alive and running today, I can't imagine the
invective that would be hurled at him. What is depressing is as
Noonan rightly points out it wouldn't just come from the left or
the country club "vodood economics" right. It would also come from
the likes of the idiotarian religious right and that is just
sad.
|12.14.07 @ 2:28PM|#
"As Christian, Huckabe makes my flesh crawl."
John, you're just not drinking the right kind of Jesus juice.
That's what Huckabee said about somebody who disagreed with his
immigration policies in Arkansas.
|12.14.07 @ 2:31PM|#
On Romney's "I am Mormon, hear me roar" stump
speech
More like Romney's "I am Christian, and gosh darn it, almost a
Protestant or Catholic, unless it's in the South, in which case I'm
pert' near a Southern Baptist, oh, and screw the atheists, at least
until the general election" speech.
|12.14.07 @ 2:33PM|#
Jamie Kelley -- Wow. Five posts in, and you're already busting out the obligatory Godwin violation.
|12.14.07 @ 2:36PM|#
I'd also say it's up for debate on how "free" Europeans are,
from a libertarian perspective.
And "tolerant" is up for debate, too, unless you're one of those
liberals who defines tolerance as "being totally free to think like
I do".
Billy Beck|12.14.07 @ 2:37PM|#
Krauthammer is a dipshit. The rise of the EU is on course to rival every concentration of power on the continent since Frederick II.
|12.14.07 @ 2:37PM|#
If the standard by which Europe is to be judged is the
as-yet-unrealized paradise of Libertaria, then Europe isn't very
free. But western Europe, and in particular Scandinavia, is
probably more free than the United States.
They pay higher taxes and have more bureaucracy, but they also have
a much, much less insane prosecution of the war on drugs, good
business environments (The Economist projects that Denmark will
have the best business environment in the world over the next five
years), and greater social tolerance. I think our shameful prison
system alone is probably enough to make us less free western
Europe. After all, a country's penalties for breaking the law can
sometimes be more important--and more depressing--than the sheer
number of laws on the books.
|12.14.07 @ 2:38PM|#
That, and the appearance of a well-funded left-wing smear
atmosphere.
joe and I agree! Mark the date on your calendar.
The "left wing smear atmosphere," as opposed to those humble,
nonmonied conservative interests, right, anon?
|12.14.07 @ 2:57PM|#
I have a question. Does Huckabee go around saying, "I'm your
huckleberry", à la Val Kilmer in Tombstone? That would be
cool, especially if he also dueled opposing candidates.
Speaking of that, wouldn't Thunderdome be an excellent way to
handle these campaigns? We'd only have to endure all of the losing
candidates one time, that way.
|12.14.07 @ 3:01PM|#
"Did he really say "Jesus Juice"?"
Yes, he did. Read about it at newsmax.com. It's an article about
Ron Paul's campaign hiring a couple of Arkansas Republican
legislators to come to Iowa to tell the people there about how
Huckabee governed in Arkansas.
Paul|12.14.07 @ 3:02PM|#
While not quite Barry "Kick Falwell Right in the Ass"
Goldwater, Reagan would likely strike those propelling Huckleberry
Huckabee to the top of polls in Iowa and New Hampshire as too
inattentive to "religious issues."
While I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment, there are
others who
don't. In an interview about their new book, these guys
went into great detail about Reagan's faith, and credit him with
the beginning of faith in modern politics. I have problems with
their general thesis, however. Audio, sorry.
|12.14.07 @ 3:05PM|#
Ashish George
Have you ever heard an Italian talk about gays, a Frenchman talk
about Arabs or a German talk about blacks?
You might end up questioning the whole "Euros are tolerant" schtick
if you had.
Note too that approval for the death penalty runs about the same as
here.
And prison terms might be shorter but considering the conditions
one finds in prisons (except Scandinavia) it's questionable about
how much difference is there.
There is a world of difference between the ruling elites and Joe
Sixpack. Joe just knows he needs to stay in his place and his
betters will take care of him.
But Krauthammer is correct. Western Europe contains about a much
higher degree of personal liberty than just about everywhere else
on the planet.
|12.14.07 @ 3:05PM|#
Those guys are full of crap Paul. No one who is an evangelical bible thumper would become an actor. You become an actor for the same reason you join a rock band; to get laid. Don't think for a minute that Hollywood back in Reagan's day was not more decadent than it is now. They just had more class and weren't so damned vulger about it.
|12.14.07 @ 3:12PM|#
Jake,
"I don't know what to say. That is just amazing."
He is definitely playing the religion card. Look at how he is
telling people that Mormons believe that Jesus and Satan are
brothers. It's not true, but even if it were true, what difference
would it make? Are we to make our voting decisions on what
candidates' religious views or on what their political views are? I
think Huckabee has interjected religion into this race more than
any previous candidate including George W. Bush and Jimmy
Carter.
|12.14.07 @ 3:13PM|#
John: Mine own Christian flesh doth crawl as well.
And I do know what to say about the Jesus juice comment: Dumbass
hillbilly. Dumbass rednecks don't bother me atall, but I can't
stand a dumbass redneck.
|12.14.07 @ 3:13PM|#
Naturally in Europe you will not run afoul of their identity
card laws unless maybe you are swarthier complected.
Nor will you run afoul of their complete lack of anything
resembling the First amndt unless your a troublemaker or a
holocaust denier.
So, yes, freedom is relative.
|12.14.07 @ 3:15PM|#
No one who is an evangelical bible thumper would become an
actor.
You're absolutely right,
John.
So very, very right.
|12.14.07 @ 3:21PM|#
I don't think Mel qualifies as an evangelical bible thumper.
He's more a cultish Catholic.
I think of all the flavors of Protestantism, Baptist ministers are
uniquely unqualifed and unsuited to political office. I speak as a
someone who was Baptist raised (I'm now a Catholic-Baptist hybrid.
A Cafeteria Bapolic, if you will.)
|12.14.07 @ 3:22PM|#
Look at how he is telling people that Mormons believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers. It's not true....
Actually, technically, it is, in that according to Mormons we are
all children of our Heavenly Father and hence all brothers and
sisters. That includes Jesus, Lucifer, you, me and even
Huckaby.
However, for Huckaby to take it out of context like that
is....well....pure Hucksterism.
|12.14.07 @ 3:23PM|#
"No one who is an evangelical bible thumper would become an
actor."
Mel Gibson, Charlton Heston, Efren Zimblist Jr.
|12.14.07 @ 3:24PM|#
Jamie,
Gibson wasn't a hard core Catholic when he started. I suppose Andy
Griffith is the exception that proves the rule.
Paul|12.14.07 @ 3:28PM|#
You might end up questioning the whole "Euros are tolerant"
schtick if you had.
We already do.
|12.14.07 @ 3:29PM|#
Plus, Europeans are hardly tolerant of Americans. Unless, of course, those Europeans are in America.
|12.14.07 @ 3:31PM|#
I don't think Mel qualifies as an evangelical bible
thumper.
Well, he wants you to be Catholic, or at least his brand of the
faith. And sure, he thumps a Roman bible, but fuck it, it's still a
bible.
|12.14.07 @ 3:34PM|#
You become an actor for the same reason you join a rock
band; to get laid.
I've heard, though I may be crazy, that some actors started acting
because they love to act and some rock musicians love to play
music.
|12.14.07 @ 3:35PM|#
"John Wayne was a fag."
I've heard that before, but is there any evidence for it?
BakedPenguin|12.14.07 @ 3:36PM|#
That would be cool, especially if [Huckabee] also dueled opposing candidates.
Yeah. And lost.
|12.14.07 @ 3:37PM|#
"I've heard, though I may be crazy, that some actors started
acting because they love to act and some rock musicians love to
play music."
Yeah some do. Their called gay musicians and actors.
|12.14.07 @ 3:38PM|#
"John Wayne was a fag."
I've heard that before, but is there any evidence for
it?
"Come here, pilgrim." Ever have a guy say that to you in bed? The
words still haunt me.
|12.14.07 @ 3:39PM|#
Rattlesnake Jake,
Don't know, but I've heard someone around here saw Wayne in a dress
while installing mirror's at his house or something.
|12.14.07 @ 3:48PM|#
"Don't know, but I've heard someone around here saw Wayne in a
dress while installing mirror's at his house or something."
Thanks for ruining my weekend. Now I can't get that image out of my
mind.
|12.14.07 @ 3:53PM|#
Didn't Reagan also sign the first state law legalizing abortion? Signing that bill would've killed his candidacy.
|12.14.07 @ 3:56PM|#
"John,
HA! Sorry, I thought you were being serious at first"
Yeah I was kidding. But I would imagine Ronny got around a little
bit back in the day. Everyone did.
|12.14.07 @ 4:18PM|#
Actually, technically, it is, in that according to Mormons
we are all children of our Heavenly Father and hence all brothers
and sisters. That includes Jesus, Lucifer, you, me and even
Huckaby.
I deny any family connection between me and Mike Huckabee.
My standards may be infernally low, but not that low.
|12.14.07 @ 4:38PM|#
On Europe vs. America, I'll take neither. I'd take Hong Kong, Singapore (at least in economics, not its authoritarian political system) or South Korea over any of them.
|12.14.07 @ 4:38PM|#
It's true Ronald Reagan signed a bill liberalizing abortion law,
but then he, like me, decided that abortion is murder. I'm afraid
if you want to elect someone who has never changed his mind on an
issue then you can't support him or me. And that's ironic because
I've both opposed (when running for office in an anti-Reagan state)
and supported Reagan's legacy (when running for office in a
nomination contest where most voters are pro-Reagan) itself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pVqZzHm3Z4
Vote for me, I represent your positions on the issues, and if that
is not true I can change them!
|12.14.07 @ 4:40PM|#
"On Europe vs. America, I'll take neither. I'd take Hong Kong,
Singapore (at least in economics, not its authoritarian political
system) or South Korea over any of them."
Have you ever actually been to South Korea? If you are not a Korean
you are lower than dogshit in that country. No thank you. As far as
Singapore goes, I am not sure there is a more boring place on
earth.
|12.14.07 @ 4:41PM|#
Have you ever actually been to South Korea? If you are not a
Korean you are lower than dogshit in that country. No thank you. As
far as Singapore goes, I am not sure there is a more boring place
on earth.
I was speaking of the business climate/economics more than social
policy. If we're talking social policy, I'll take Holland.
|12.14.07 @ 4:42PM|#
That is, Dutch social tolerance and Hong Kong economics. That should be about right.
|12.14.07 @ 4:43PM|#
In addition, I promise to change the mascot of of the GOP from
the foriegn symbol of the elephant to a noble beast found right off
this great and religious nation's coasts, whose very name embodies
my character: Flipper the Dolphin.
Remember, like noble Flipper I'm swimming your way, and if not I
can change course to do so!
|12.14.07 @ 4:48PM|#
"As far as Singapore goes, I am not sure there is a more boring
place on earth."
It's boring unless you're getting beat by a cane.
|12.14.07 @ 4:50PM|#
At least Singapore is honest about the drug war. You either have to legalize drugs (my preferred solution on philosophical and humanitarian grounds) or make the penalties so harsh no one will dark ever smoke a joint. Anything in between is a cluster fuck.
|12.14.07 @ 4:50PM|#
"Actually, technically, it is, in that according to Mormons we
are all children of our Heavenly Father and hence all brothers and
sisters. That includes Jesus, Lucifer, you, me and even
Huckaby."
I resent people bringing the faith of my fathers into this
campaign? What ever happened to religiou tolerance? And btw, I
accept Jesus Christ as the savior of mankind and the Son of
God.
|12.14.07 @ 4:51PM|#
Have you ever actually been to South Korea? If you are not a
Korean you are lower than dogshit in that country. No thank
you.
I have. I liked the people, especially the women. The locals were a
lot friendlier than many places I've been. The food, not so
much.
tepid|12.14.07 @ 4:52PM|#
Singapore is less boring for those primarily concerned with pulling sizable incomes.
x,y|12.14.07 @ 5:04PM|#
Let's not get carried away here. Europe is surely freer than many (probably most) parts of the world, but freedom is not relative like rich and poor. I'm not saying that Romney's not a fool (because he is) ... only that the so-called takedown in the WaPo is pretty weak.
|12.14.07 @ 5:09PM|#
"I have. I liked the people, especially the women. The locals
were a lot friendlier than many places I've been. The food, not so
much."
I have to and I like the Koreans. What I love about Korea is that
it disproves every leftist bullshit myth about thrid world
countries. No country in history has been a worse victim of
colonialism than Korea. It was completely raped by the Japanese.
Then when it finally threw off the Japanese yoke, it was invaded by
communists and suffered through one of the worst wars of the last
half of the 20th Century. IN 1953 it was totally devistated by war
and poorer than Hati is today. Now, 54 years later, it is one of
the richest countries on earth. You have to respect the
Koreans.
That said, while it is nice to be a tourist there, I would never
even pretend to be an accepted part of society.
|12.14.07 @ 5:10PM|#
de stijl | December 14, 2007, 3:29pm | #
John Wayne was a fag.
"He was too you Boys! I installed two-way mirrors in his pad in
Brentwood-- and he come to the door in a dress"
|12.14.07 @ 6:42PM|#
John, I like to think that in 1955 Naomi Klein would have been moaning about how the South Koreans were being subjected to "Disaster Capitalism".
|12.14.07 @ 7:15PM|#
When did his opponents ever engage Reagan on the
issues?
1986 tax reform. One of the best examples of effective, positive
bipartisanship in history.
Also, Reagan and Tip O'Neil had a famously good relationship.
|12.14.07 @ 8:56PM|#
The locals were a lot friendlier than many places I've been.
The food, not so much.
So, J sub D, which places have the friendliest food? No fair
counting the Japanese sushi bars where the food is placed on a
naked young nubile woman. ;)
|12.14.07 @ 11:49PM|#
A quick question.. with regard to Europe.. How many people here
have actually lived there?
I'm betting some.. but having lived in Germany for three years, I'd
say that it was reasonably "free" and tolerant.. Perhaps not as
much as it might be in say, NYCity or Montana(although both of
those are "free" in different ways to different kinds of people)..
but more so than say, living in rural Indiana and not being
religious... (or being black...)..
Which brings up a pet peeve of mine... Speaking about "Europeans"
or even "Western Europeans" as if they all act the same
way--despite the existence of the EU--is kinda bizarre. "North
Americans" (US, Canada, Mexico) don't all behave the same way or
live under the same circumstances.. so speaking about Europeans
this way is not the most cogent thing to do..
In any case.. the main point was about Romney trying to state that
you had to have religion in order to be free.. and does anyone here
actually think that is true?
src|12.15.07 @ 7:22AM|#
I lived in England for a while, and yes, I think there's
religious tolerance in Europe. (Just like here, though, there are
regional variations. My friend who studied in Shropshire said it
was deeply religious and right-wing.)
Religious tolerance is different in different places, though.
French people I've talked to feel strongly that you shouldn't
persecute anybody for his religion -- but they also think religion
is private and they don't want to see too many public
manifestations of it. I'm generalizing my own experience, but it
seems like the American response to meeting someone of a different
religion is "Wow, tell me about it" and the French response is
"Cool, that's your business."
Do you need religion to be free? I can't even imagine the mindset
of someone who thinks that.
|12.15.07 @ 7:39AM|#
Dumbass rednecks don't bother me atall, but I can't stand a dumbass redneck.
Fair enough.
|12.15.07 @ 9:51AM|#
Poor little Peggy Noonan.
What she helped create, promote, and manipulate has morphed into
something that no longer stays within the confines or purposes that
she and her ilk initially designated for it.
NOW she's disquieted by what she helped enable.
Had she actually READ that Bible that she used clever quotes in
speeches to help Republicans win, she'd have known better.
Reap what you sowed, Peggy.
Personal responsibility isn't just something you use to judge
others while gushing, sighing, and flinging your hair.
Own petard, and all that.
|12.15.07 @ 2:21PM|#
So, J sub D, which places have the friendliest food? No fair
counting the Japanese sushi bars where the food is placed on a
naked young nubile woman. ;)
Thailand, Hong Kong, Australia excepting breakfast. That's off the
top of my head.
|12.16.07 @ 12:09PM|#
Given Mitt's endorsement by NR, "I am Mormon, hear me roar"
needs refraction through the prism of National Review Online's long
running Star Trek fetish.
In their belief system, Romnians are not to be despised as Latter
Day Klingons who refuse to drink blood wine, for in the ecumenical
future, they might catalyze the reunion of the Romulan Catholic
Church and the Hassidic Vulcans.
|12.16.07 @ 12:18PM|#
Speaking about "Europeans" or even "Western Europeans" as if they all act the same way--despite the existence of the EU--is kinda bizarre.
So is speaking about "Americans" which many Canadians, Australians
and Europeans feel free to do, in spite of the fact that there is
certainly more diversity between and even within cities, states and
regions than any of the first two and certainly in any of the
individual countries that make up Europe.
Hey, J sub D, what's wrong with Australian breakfasts? My
recollection is that breakfasts were great but that the rest of the
day's meals were blah, but that changed in the late 60s. Although
the "New Australians" certainly started making their mark as they
started arriving in droves after WWII. But that started in the big
cities and took a while to become universal.
|12.18.07 @ 3:59PM|#
Reagan would likely strike those propelling Huckleberry
Huckabee to the top of polls in Iowa and New
Hampshire...
Whoa there. While Iowa is chuck full of folkses that believe every
word in the bible as the everlasting truth (despite the fact that
they never actually read it). The freedom loving people in the
granite state aren't so smitten with "Hell in a handbasket
Huck"
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