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Truthiness on Young Black Males in Prison Cells vs. College Dorms
The Washington Post Fact Checker column is an invaluable source on the truthiness of campaign rhetoric. Democratic presidential hopefuls Barack Obama and John Edwards made headlines earlier this year with claims about the number of young black men in prison. As the Post Fact Checker recalls:
"The idea that we can keep incarcerating and keep incarcerating -- pretty soon we're not going to have a young African-American male population in America. They're all going to be in prison or dead. One of the two."
--John Edwards, MTV political forum, September 27, 2007"We have more work to do when more young black men languish in prison than attend colleges and universities across America."
--Barrack Obama, NAACP forum, July 12, 2007.
According to the Fact Checker, these claims just ain't so. On Obama's college/prison claim:
According to 2005 Census Bureau statistics, the male African-American population of the United States aged between 18 and 24 numbered 1,896,000. According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, 106,000 African-Americans in this age group were in federal or state prisons at the end of 2005. See table 10 of this report. If you add the numbers in local jail (measured in mid-2006), you arrive at a grand total of 193,000 incarcerated young Black males, or slightly over 10 percent.
According to the same census data, 530,000 of these African-American males, or twenty eight percent, were enrolled in colleges or universities (including two-year-colleges) in 2005. That is five times the number of young black men in federal and state prisons and two and a half times the total number incarcerated. If you expanded the age group to include African-American males up to thirty or thirty five, the college attendees would still outnumber the prisoners.
On Edwards' claim that young black males will become an extinct population:
The problem, however, is that he made no effort to define his terms. He claimed that the "young African-American male population" is threatened with extinction. It is hardly the first time he has made such wild generalizations. In a March 2006 speech, Edwards made the following, equally sweeping and equally erroneous, statement: "Young African American men see their options as going to prison or dying. As a result, they don't invest in their education, they don't invest in their futures and when they father children, they don't support them."
Whew! If his fellow North Carolinian Jesse Helms had come up with a claim like that, he would never have been allowed to forget it.
As for violent deaths, we asked the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention for a list of the ten leading causes of death for black males, aged 18 to 24, in 2004. The top three causes of death in this age group were (1) homicide (2,140 deaths), unintentional injury (948 deaths), and suicide (332 deaths). Deaths from HIV AIDS ranked sixth (67 deaths.) If we add the homicide, suicide, and HIV deaths together, we get 2,539 deaths. That is a combined death rate from violent causes or AIDS of around 0.13 percent for this segment of the population. Hardly an epidemic.
As the Post Fact Checker notes, the situation is bad enough for young black men that it doesn't need to be exaggerated. One solution goes largely unmentioned by Obama and Edwards--if they really want to keep a lot of young black men (and others) out of prison, end the idiotic Drug War. According to Drug War Facts:
Of the 250,900 state prison inmates serving time for drug offenses in 2004, 133,100 (53.05%) were black, 50,100 (19.97%) were Hispanic, and 64,800 (25.83%) were white.
Whole excellent Post Fact Checker article here.
|10.3.07 @ 9:36AM|#
Wasn't the original news release on institutional living and thus that more young african american males lived in prison than in college dorms? Obama and Edwards may have morphed that into "go to college." If most of the black college males live off campus, which I bet is true, then that stat is probably correct.
|10.3.07 @ 9:39AM|#
Facts are stubborn things, aren't they? Will this cause the rhetoric from the left to be more in line with reality? Take a wild guess.
lunchstealer|10.3.07 @ 9:45AM|#
That's a slight relief to know that there are still more black
men attending college than in prison. That it's not patently
ludicrous is a problem in and of itself.
And to be fair, even with my basic hatred of Clemson students and
trial lawyers, I can't really fault Edwards on the extinction
remark. That was clear hyperbole. It's not like he claimed to have
research stating that the black male population would be gone by
2025 or something.
Nonetheless, ending the drug war would pretty much render both
questions absurd.
|10.3.07 @ 9:49AM|#
Hey, if Obama can claim that he's black, he's certainly can make up his own "facts" regarding imprisonment rates vs. college enrollment.
|10.3.07 @ 9:51AM|#
What would be the civil rights establisment response if the David Dukes of the world used fabricated stats like Edwards and Obama to support a claim the African Americans are criminally inclined, not interested in education, etc.? I am not claiming that rascism doesn't affect the discrepencies in incarceration between blacks and other races. The evidence obviously indicates that is a fact. I am suggesting that facts, not rhetoric, should drive the debae. This is not a novel concept. We all know about the boy who cried wolf.
|10.3.07 @ 10:00AM|#
The basis of this information is about black males within the
prison/corrections system, including those incarcerated, on parole,
or on probation. And the claim that there are more young black
males within the corrections system than in college is...oh, what's
that word again?
Oh, yeah, TRUE.
But hey...how 'bout them lying Democrats, huh? Obama just made this
up out of whole cloth, because that's when them people do.
|10.3.07 @ 10:06AM|#
...if they really want to keep a lot of young black men (and
others) out of prison, end the idiotic Drug War.
Ah but sure, isn't one of the major reasons the drug war is so
popular among politicians the fact that so many white voters want
the damn n-----s sent back to their plantations and kept there this
time?
|10.3.07 @ 10:08AM|#
Joe, read Obama's quote again. He mentioned young black men in prison. That isn't the same as on parole or on probation.
|10.3.07 @ 10:09AM|#
Expanding the age group to 30 is nice, but starting the age group at 18 seems laughable.
|10.3.07 @ 10:15AM|#
And the claim that there are more young black males within
the corrections system than in college is...oh, what's that word
again?
Oh, yeah, TRUE.
And the facts to support this assertion can be found where?
|10.3.07 @ 10:16AM|#
We have more work to do when more young black men languish
in prison than attend colleges and universities across
America."
Yeah, let's read between the lines (BIG FUCKING TIME) to get "on
parole, or on probation."
|10.3.07 @ 10:17AM|#
"more young african american males lived in prison than in
college dorms"
That was how I originally heard this particular riff. Looks like
they expanded it beyond it's usefulness, especially with the rise
of worthless "universities" like UofPhoenix, Widener, Keiser,
etc.
|10.3.07 @ 10:17AM|#
Expanding the age group to 30 is nice, but starting the age
group at 18 seems laughable.
Why? Don't most kids start college at 18?
|10.3.07 @ 10:18AM|#
Matt J: When "languishing in prisons" is changed to "in the corrections system" it becomes true. There's a huge difference there.
|10.3.07 @ 10:23AM|#
Joe- the oft-repeated claim is "more black men are in prison
than in college," not "in the correctional system." You've heard
it, and I've heard it.
That being said, I'd like to know what it is on which you base your
claim about the correctional system as a whole. It's not that the
claim isn't plausible; I'd just like to see the evidence.
|10.3.07 @ 10:28AM|#
Matt J: When "languishing in prisons" is changed to "in the
corrections system" it becomes true. There's a huge difference
there.
I'm not denying the assertion, I would just like to see the numbers
that support it. How many black men of college age are in the
corrections system?
Yes, but they "enter the corrections system" before
18.
The question is are there more young black men in prison or in
college. I'm no statistician, but it seems obvious that you would
start measuring at the age most young men enter college.
|10.3.07 @ 10:28AM|#
I don't know if it changes the thrust of the argument much if
you substitute 'in the correctional system' for 'in prison'.
Neither is good.
If they want to use this to end imbalanced sentencing, more power
to 'em.
If they want to use it to create more transfer payments, this sort
of vile exaggeration can't be allowed to stand!
|10.3.07 @ 10:34AM|#
Joe- the oft-repeated claim is "more black men are in prison
than in college," not "in the correctional system." You've heard
it, and I've heard it.
Yes, but you're missing the forest for the trees by pointing this
out.
If we add the homicide, suicide, and HIV deaths together, we
get 2,539 deaths. That is a combined death rate from violent causes
or AIDS of around 0.13 percent for this segment of the population.
Hardly an epidemic.
Check my math, but wouldn't that mean there were 3.3 million black
males between 18-24 in America? Doesn't quite seem right.
|10.3.07 @ 10:41AM|#
"We have more work to do when more young black men languish in
prison than attend colleges and universities across America."
--Barrack Obama, NAACP forum, July 12, 2007.
And that clain would be...oh, what's that word again?
Oh, yeah, FALSE.
Cue Joe Friday, Just the facts, sir.
|10.3.07 @ 10:45AM|#
Check my math, but wouldn't that mean there were 3.3 million
black males between 18-24 in America? Doesn't quite seem
right.
Well if I did the math right, it's around 2.2 million. Sounds about
right to me.
A Freindly Reminder|10.3.07 @ 10:49AM|#
Democrats distorting facts to scare folks into action is
perfectly acceptable to liberals. See Al Gore and GW.
Likewise, Republicans doing the same is fine with conservatives.
See GWB and the Iraq War.
Don't expect joe or John to admit to hyperbole from their
respective camps.
on joe\'s behalf|10.3.07 @ 11:04AM|#
That being said, I'd like to know what it is on which you
base your claim about the correctional system as a whole. It's not
that the claim isn't plausible; I'd just like to see the
evidence.
I don't have time. Look it up yourself.
thoreau|10.3.07 @ 11:09AM|#
You know, I wouldn't be surprised if the number of young black
men in the criminal justice system (jail plus parole plus probation
plus whatever else) is comparable to the number of young black men
attending college. That would be a shameful fact (if true, I
haven't checked the stats). And if that point is true, getting the
numbers wrong will do nothing to help bring about greater
consideration of the problem.
There's nothing worse than an important point being undermined by
sloppiness.
|10.3.07 @ 11:09AM|#
Joe-I'd be missing the forest for the trees if I tried to claim that the ratio of black men in the correctional system vs. college was not troubling. I'm not claiming that; it is troubling. I'm simply suggesting that people making those claims ought to speak more carefully.
|10.3.07 @ 11:14AM|#
Don't you guys know by now that every thing joe says is true
untill proven false and even then its still true.
Furthermore, no claim made by or supported by joe needs to have any
plausible or verifiable evidence.
And lastly, joe may not be right all the time but he is never
wrong.
|10.3.07 @ 11:22AM|#
Okay,
To summarize some of the dribble I've read so far...So the way it
works is that campaigning politicians use hyperbolic language and
fudge facts to describe a real and pressing problem in the US. If
you can prove that they have fudged their data with a Clintonian
parsing, the problem disappears. Not only that, but anyone here on
out that tries to bring up said problem, is inventing that shit out
of whole cloth. Oh, and this sort of fudging data is something that
specifically characterizes only what the political Left does in
this country.
Pretty pathetic performance. This must be the
end-of-the-season-already-clinched-a-post-season-berth squad of H
& R posters on the field right now. Can we at least get a few
of the starters to pinch hit dissemble a bit more skillfully in
this case? You know, make the red herring twitch with a bit more
life?
Sorry for the baseball stuff...but I've got some serious BoSox
fever here.
|10.3.07 @ 11:23AM|#
Democrats distorting facts to scare folks into action is
perfectly acceptable to liberals. Likewise, Republicans doing the
same is fine with conservatives.
Yep, gotta keep an eye on all of 'em. Lying, fact distorting,
politicians should be apologetically groveling when called out on
it. They aren't, and the partisan electorate will give their side a
free pass every time. This doesn't reflect well on the American
people.
|10.3.07 @ 11:24AM|#
The fact that there are more black males in "the correction system" than in college is the fault of the black males and no one else's. Let's not make them the victims here.
|10.3.07 @ 11:26AM|#
To summarize some of the dribble I've read so far...So the
way it works is that campaigning politicians use hyperbolic
language and fudge facts to describe a real and pressing problem in
the US. If you can prove that they have fudged their data with a
Clintonian parsing, the problem disappears. Not only that, but
anyone here on out that tries to bring up said problem, is
inventing that shit out of whole cloth. Oh, and this sort of
fudging data is something that specifically characterizes only what
the political Left does in this country.
THat's kinda how I felt after reading the posts.
OH NO A POLITICIAN USED HYPERBOLE OR INEXACT WORDS WHEN DESCRIBING
A REAL PROBLEM -- IGNORE HIM AND THE PROBLEM!!!!
|10.3.07 @ 11:26AM|#
Sorry, it seems that the posts got better while I was writing
mine.
I don't know if I will ever be in Obama or Edward's camp, but I can
say that of course they are sloppy fudgers of data. And yes it
hurts the overall argument. But I would expect more people to not
lose sight of the problem so easily.
|10.3.07 @ 11:27AM|#
The fact that there are more black males in "the correction
system" than in college is the fault of the black males and no one
else's. Let's not make them the victims here.
Yes, because it's a proven fact that the justice system treats
everyone exactly the same regardless of race or any other
factors.
It's your own fault if the cops arrest you for having a joint but
your white buddies get let go with mere confiscation and a
warning.
|10.3.07 @ 11:29AM|#
"The idea that we can keep incarcerating and keep incarcerating
-- pretty soon we're not going to have a young African-American
male population in America. They're all going to be in prison or
dead. One of the two."
I think this is a horrible idea. Shame on Edwards for even
suggesting it. And the way he was rubbing his hands together and
smiling while he said made it even worse. Makes me ashamed to be
white.
|10.3.07 @ 11:29AM|#
There's nothing worse than an important point being
undermined by sloppiness.
Yeah Thoreau, Like you take pains for accuracy in your profession
or something! ;-)
|10.3.07 @ 11:29AM|#
o the way it works is that campaigning politicians use
hyperbolic language and fudge facts to describe a real and pressing
problem in the US. If you can prove that they have fudged their
data with a Clintonian parsing, the problem disappears. Not only
that, but anyone here on out that tries to bring up said problem,
is inventing that shit out of whole cloth. Oh, and this sort of
fudging data is something that specifically characterizes only what
the political Left does in this country.
No. No one said that, and no one implied that. In fact, several
people have gone out of their way to acknowledge the problem.
Whether it's because of sloppy reading or sloppy thinking, you've
written a complete non-sequitur.
|10.3.07 @ 11:31AM|#
"The fact that there are more black males in "the correction
system" than in college is the fault of the black males and no one
else's. Let's not make them the victims here."
This is a pretty good one, I'll admit.
Drug War laws and the way they are selectively enforced are
specifically rigged to catch more young black males than white
males in their nets. They are patently racist. See penalties for
rock versus powder for just one example. I don't have time go
chasing that one down for you NAL, but nice try.
|10.3.07 @ 11:35AM|#
For clarity: NAL's expression of a silly, and probably racist idea does not reflect the majority view here.
|10.3.07 @ 11:43AM|#
It's pretty clear that Obama was referring to a ballyhooed
Justice Policy Institute study released in 2002 that stated that
there were more black men in prison than in college. There were
rumblings about the methodology, etc. on the original study; I
don't recall whether it was debunked or not.
Here is a contemporaneous article
from stopthedrugwar.
Possibly he was referring to this recent NYT
article which states there are more black men in prison than in
college dorms (but that more black men are in college than in
prison).
Fluffy|10.3.07 @ 11:44AM|#
I was able to find some Department of Justice data on this
subject. The last year they had available was 1998. In that year,
616000 blacks were in prison, 732,000 blacks were on probation, and
290,000 blacks were on parole. In other words, the total number of
blacks "in the corrections system" was about 2 1/2 times the number
actually incarcerated.
I don't know how this translates to "young" blacks, but if the
proportions remain the same [a very dicey assumption] and if you
use the larger "young" group then the total number of "young"
blacks in the corrections system may in fact exceed the number in
college.
|10.3.07 @ 11:44AM|#
Number 6,
My first post was intended to be a kick in the ass. The early posts
by J sub D, John David, and Lamar were pretty dismissive of the
problem early on in this thread.
If I remember correctly, The Sentencing Project has some pretty
good stuff on the overall numbers and percentages of black males
who have been through the penal system. And just to head off the
argument that goes something like "so he was in jail before, but
he's out now" lets not pretend that one is not confronted with far
fewer opportunities once one has done time. Let's not even get
started about the permanent disenfranchisement that is still
practiced in so many states vis-a-vis felons.
This issue is a monster. It also seems like it would be a huge one
for Libertarians. The dismissive tone comes as a bit of a shock to
me. Shouldn't the fudging of data start an interesting debate among
libertarians instead of stop it in its tracks?
|10.3.07 @ 11:46AM|#
Drug War laws and the way they are selectively enforced are
specifically rigged to catch more young black males than white
males in their nets. They are patently racist. See penalties for
rock versus powder for just one example. I don't have time go
chasing that one down for you NAL, but nice try.
Nice try? Is this a Libertarian blog or did I somehow point my
browser to a left-wing bleeding heart website? Whatever happened to
personal responsibility? People can cry "Racism in the justice
system!" all they want to, but it comes down to, "if you do the
crime, you do the time."
|10.3.07 @ 11:48AM|#
o the way it works is that campaigning politicians use
hyperbolic language and fudge facts to describe a real and pressing
problem in the US.
Hyperbolic language and fudged facts got us into Iraq. But hey -
that's just politicians being politicians. Little scamps.
If you can prove that they have fudged their data with a
Clintonian parsing, the problem disappears.
If numbers support that their assertion is a false one then yes -
the problem as they've defined it disappears.
Not only that, but anyone here on out that tries to bring up
said problem, is inventing that shit out of whole cloth.
Doesn't mean that there isn't a real problem. It just means that
the real problem makes for a less dramatic sound bite.
Oh, and this sort of fudging data is something that
specifically characterizes only what the political Left does in
this country.
Nope. It specifically characterizes what politicians do. See the
divorce story for the political Right version of this
compulsion.
|10.3.07 @ 11:49AM|#
...and if there is racism in the justice system, maybe that's even more reason not to do the crime.
|10.3.07 @ 11:50AM|#
The WOD issue aside, this seems like more of a sociological issue than a political one. Sure, there are certainly some blacks in prison who are there or got enhanced sentences because of racism, but I seriously doubt that the majority didn't commit the crimes of which they were convicted (or worse--lots and lots of plea bargains in our system). The disproportionate presence of black males in prison is a serious problem, but even black leaders have acknowledged that you can't pin the whole thing on the Man.
|10.3.07 @ 11:54AM|#
OK, if the problem is that black dudes go to jail for smoking
the reefer or get longer sentences for possession of crack, I have
a novel solution:
Put down the crack pipe, idiot!
What % of the people in jail have been wrongly convicted? Less than
1%, I'd wager. Don't break the law and you won't go to jail. There,
I've solved the whole problem.
dhex|10.3.07 @ 11:54AM|#
Is this a Libertarian blog or did I somehow point my browser
to a left-wing bleeding heart website?
yeah it's a bleeding heart website cause you know there's nothing
less libertarian than asserting people who use drugs and engage in
commerce with said drugs are victims of a pointless criminal
justice system; actually that's not true - the real sin here is
suggesting there are also racial and socio-economic overtones to
the issue that makes an existing injustice worse, especially for a
certain segment of the population.
you can recognize these things AND whack obama and edwards for
sloppy emotionalism in an issue where sloppiness will not help a
damn fucking thing...that's why i have a subscription to reason for
the next 30 years.
dhex|10.3.07 @ 11:56AM|#
There, I've solved the whole problem.
yeah you totally fixed it! congratulations! you've taken a
complicated, multi-layered issue and fixed it with a single
sentence!
what are you some kind of fucking democrat?
|10.3.07 @ 11:58AM|#
Matt,
I would have to put most aspects of the Iraq war justification
under the category of total bullshit, those weren't just a bunch of
marginal fudgings.
Obama's assertion wasn't false, it was exaggerated at the margins.
Shame on him.
NAL,
So I'll add fairness in sentencing to my list of stupid things that
make bleeding leftists cry.
|10.3.07 @ 12:00PM|#
Okay,
Ralphy and NAL must be a comic duo. I think I've been had. Good
work guys. You can stop now.
|10.3.07 @ 12:04PM|#
Pinko, sorry if I wasn't clear enough. Of course there's a problem. Throwing incorrect stats around doesn't do a damned thing for your cause among thinking people. That is my point. Obama's statement is indicative of either a disregard for the truth, or half assed research. I desire neither trait in a President.
|10.3.07 @ 12:06PM|#
For clarity: NAL's expression of a silly, and probably
racist idea does not reflect the majority view here.
Ah, yes. When all else fails, cry "Racism!"
|10.3.07 @ 12:07PM|#
jtuf,
jtuf | October 3, 2007, 10:08am | #
Joe, read Obama's quote again. He mentioned young black men in
prison. That isn't the same as on parole or on
probation.
Nor is it the same thing as making up a myth.
Obama spoke imprecisely, using "in prison" to mean "in the
corrections system." Sort of like people who say there are 160,000
American troops fighting in Iraq. No, there aren't - a good number
of them are not fighting.
Now, what do you think is the important part here - that there are
more young black males in the corrections system than in college,
or that a politician used hyperbolic language for effect?
|10.3.07 @ 12:09PM|#
I wonder if there is still time for the 'candidates' to tell
their stories at the National Storytelling festival.
http://www.americaslibrary.gov/cgi-bin/page.cgi/es/tn/stories_1
It would seem to me that at lesat one of them would be a winner at
that if they can't get elected.
If truthfulness was a commodity these people would be to broke to
buy any IMHO.
|10.3.07 @ 12:11PM|#
Conservatarians will even defend the drug war if it helps them bash a Democrat.
cranky old guy|10.3.07 @ 12:11PM|#
or that a politician used hyperbolic language for
effect?
Nothing worse than having a lier take your side in an argument.
|10.3.07 @ 12:12PM|#
Obama's assertion wasn't false, it was exaggerated at the
margins.
Pinko, we must use different dictionaries. And yes, I'll happily
slam a republican for similar B/S. You don't solve problems using
incorrect data.
|10.3.07 @ 12:17PM|#
I would have to put most aspects of the Iraq war
justification under the category of total bullshit, those weren't
just a bunch of marginal fudgings.
One man's bullshit is another man's marginal fudgings.
|10.3.07 @ 12:26PM|#
It's great that these two political titans have recognized a
problem that libertarians have been talking about for years, and
not just concerning young black males. Sadly, neither seems to want
to address the real problem, which is the nation's onerous drug
laws. Until they do that, nothing will change.
What's going on here is merely their efforts to shore up minority
support without proposing anything specific to address the problem,
other than perhaps more gov't set-asides that will give the
apprearacne of doing something while not changing the underlying
structual problems, aka the drug laws.
Neither side wants to move against the drug laws lest they be
accused of being "soft on crime" by their opponents. In the mean
time, hundreds of thousands of people each year will be introduced
to the meat grinder, aka the justice system, for doing things that
are morally no different than buying, selling or consuming
alcoholic beverages.
dhex|10.3.07 @ 12:26PM|#
Now, what do you think is the important part here - that there are
more young black males in the corrections system than in college,
or that a politician used hyperbolic language for
effect?
the problem is that, in this case, hyperbolic language allows
critics to readily dismiss the real issue; especially when it could
be fixed by changing "in prison" to "in the corrections
system."
thoreau|10.3.07 @ 12:31PM|#
the problem is that, in this case, hyperbolic language
allows critics to readily dismiss the real issue; especially when
it could be fixed by changing "in prison" to "in the corrections
system."
Exactly.
joe, it may not be entirely fair that this linguistic slip is being
harped on (and I'll agree, "in prison" vs. "in the corrections
system" is a fairly small slip), but imprecision is imprecision,
and leaving some low-hanging fruit for the opposition does no good
service to one's cause.
By defending the slip rather than acknowledging it, lamenting it,
and then moving on to the bigger issue, you allow the other side to
portray you as being fast and loose with the facts. That isn't
entirely fair either, but you left the low-hanging fruit for them,
so what do you expect?
|10.3.07 @ 12:34PM|#
Obama spoke imprecisely, using "in prison" to mean "in the
corrections system."
Now you read minds? He said what he said so his assertion is fair
game for fact checking.
When a Republican candidate asserts that illegal aliens commit more
crimes or that the growing divorce rate is a sign of our moral
decay I hold them to the same standard.
Right or Left have your facts straight.
|10.3.07 @ 12:37PM|#
Point taken, thoreau and dhex.
Now, why are you going out of your way to help them?
You could have posted about the drug war, the size of America's
prison population, or the racial disparities in how the drug war is
fought.
Instead, you decided to quibble about imprecision of the language
of someone who actually is talking about those things.
thoreau|10.3.07 @ 12:48PM|#
Now, why are you going out of your way to help
them?
I'm not, joe. I'm trying to help you avoid pitfalls.
As to why I'm not commenting on the bigger issue? Well, once the
thread is jacked the thread is jacked.
|10.3.07 @ 12:49PM|#
If the leading Democrats were truly concerned about the number of black men in prison, they'd talk about ending the drug war.
SIV|10.3.07 @ 1:08PM|#
Is this a Libertarian blog or did I somehow point my browser
to a left-wing bleeding heart website?
NAL
Both are correct
Are you new here?
SIV|10.3.07 @ 1:09PM|#
If the leading Democrats were truly concerned about the
number of black men in prison, they'd talk about ending the drug
war.
Yup
thoreau|10.3.07 @ 1:10PM|#
Nope. Cesar was #70. I posted #71 to observe that the comment before Cesar's (also mine) was #69.
|10.3.07 @ 1:15PM|#
If conservatarians were really concerned about the drug war and black men in prison, they'd talk about the drug war.
Edward|10.3.07 @ 1:17PM|#
A 1992 political newsletter by former Rep. Ron Paul, R-Texas,
included portrayals of African-Americans as inclined toward crime
and lacking sense about political issues, the Houston Chronicle
reported Thursday. Paul, a former Libertarian Party presidential
candidate who defeated Democratic-turned-Republican Rep. Greg
Laughlin in the March primary, in November will face Democratic
attorney Charles (Lefty) Morris, whose campaign is distributing
Paul's writings. Under the headline "Terrorist Update," Paul
reported on gang crime in Los Angeles and wrote, "If you have ever
been robbed by a black teenaged male, you know how unbelievably
fleet-footed they can be." About blacks in Washington, D.C., Paul
wrote, "I think we can safely assume that 95 percent of the black
males in that city are semi-criminal or entirely criminal." Paul
said Wednesday that his comments came in the context of "current
events and statistical reports of the time," and that he opposes
racism.
In later newsletters, Paul wrote that lobbying groups who seek
special favors are evil, and that "by far the most powerful lobby
in Washington of the bad sort is the Israeli government."
|10.3.07 @ 1:20PM|#
SIV and Cesar,
They've tried. The last two presidents who thought they'd give that
a shot, Clinton and Carter, were absolutely pilloried for making
such noises. They were pilloried by Republicans first, and then
they were mercilessly pilloried by members of their own party
because it was an effective political truncheon to use...the soft
on crime meme. The problem is that this is a virus that infects our
whole culture. Too many Americans are attracted to both the daddy
state and the nanny state.
Why is it that Dems should be more willing to commit political
suicide than Republicans?
|10.3.07 @ 1:20PM|#
"We have more work to do when more young black men languish in
prison than attend colleges and universities across America."
--Barrack Obama, NAACP forum, July 12, 2007.
There is absolutely nothing wrong or false about this statement. No
where here does Obama claim a bigger young black male population
anywhere. There are no purported facts about any population to be
checked.
Anonymo the Anonymous|10.3.07 @ 1:45PM|#
There are no purported facts about any population to be
checked.
Are you illiterate? The claim is clearly
number of young black men languishing in prison > number of
young black men attending colleges and universities across
America
|10.3.07 @ 1:53PM|#
The problem, however, is that [John Edwards] made no effort
to define his terms [as to what Young Black Population
means].
What of it? It's for the children... isn't it?
|10.3.07 @ 2:00PM|#
I have heard the anecdote before that a black male has a better chance of going to jail than going to college. I'm not vouching for its accuracy but perhaps they heard that too and were botching it? I don't think they were making that up.
|10.3.07 @ 2:06PM|#
If conservatarians were really concerned about the drug war
and black men in prison, they'd talk about the drug war.
All the time? Or just instead of attacking your pet
candidate?
And what the hell is a conservatarian? Is that just someone that
you don't like?
cynic|10.3.07 @ 2:07PM|#
It's all about building a sense of urgency. When truth isn't enough, truthiness takes over.
atrevete|10.3.07 @ 2:08PM|#
So, since technically Obama's statement isn't true (yet) it means we DON'T have any more work to do? He's saying basically nothing.
|10.3.07 @ 2:44PM|#
There are no purported facts about any population to be
checked.
Are you illiterate? The claim is clearly...
Speaking of speaking precisely, ablejack was right - Obama's
statement is conditional:
"We have more work to do when more young black men
languish..."
"We have more work to do when rivers overflow their banks."
He's saying basically nothing. = he's a politician.
Here's an
interesting factoid (2004):
"While it is true that African Americans have a higher college
enrollment rate (6.8% total AA pop) than incarceration rate (2.7%
total AA pop), they are also more likely than the general
population to be enrolled in college (6.1% total pop) and more
likely than a white person to be enrolled in college (6.2% total W
pop). In fact there is only one other group more likely to be
enrolled in college (Asians at 12.8%). I wonder if some reporter is
going to catch Kerry in this fib and ask him about those other
stats that show blacks are doing very well in America."
|10.3.07 @ 2:48PM|#
Why is it that Dems should be more willing to commit
political suicide than Republicans?
The Republicans seem to be quite willing to commit political
suicide over the Iraq War.
Frank|10.3.07 @ 2:54PM|#
I haven't read all responses - did anyone else notice that the
article cites two reports that plainly do not comport?
"Of the 250,900 state prison inmates serving time for drug offenses
in 2004, 133,100 (53.05%) were black"
That's 133,100 in 2004 just for drugs and just in state
prison.
"According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, 106,000
African-Americans in this age group were in federal or state
prisons at the end of 2005"
that's 106,000 in 2005, 21% fewer, counting both state and federal
prison and for all offenses.
Someone call the Office of Pulling Statistics Out of My Ass.
|10.3.07 @ 3:03PM|#
Try this response on for size. People don't go to jail because they are black, white, Hispanic or Asian. They go to jail because they are criminals. People don't flunk out of college because of their race or religion--they just aren't smart enough to pass. People don't sell drugs because they are black, white, etc...they sell drugs because they want to make a quick and easy dollar instead of working. People don't kill other people because of their ethnic or religious background--they kill people because they hate them, or just simply because they are evil. The most evil people in history are mostly Caucasian. Hitler, Jeffrey Dahlmer, Charles Manson, Ted Bundy, Son of Sam, Mussolini, John Wayne Gacy--all were white people. Sin and depravition knows no skin color. Now, name some great people that were not pure white. George Washington Carver, Martin Luther King, Confucious, Buddha, Jesus of Nazareth (a pure Jew), Mohammed, Bishop Tutu, Ghandi. I could go on, but I think I made my point. Skin color, ancestors, bloodline, religion--have no bearing on whether a person will be an asset to society or a detriment. Please quit saying that just because you are black that you are doomed to be a criminal or a college dropout. Please quit saying that because you are white you will be the next leader of the free world. Take responsibility for your own life, and do your best. History will take care of the rest.
Anonymo the Anonymous|10.3.07 @ 3:56PM|#
Speaking of speaking precisely, ablejack was right - Obama's
statement is conditional:
"We have more work to do when more young black men
languish..."
"We have more work to do when rivers overflow their
banks."
Only if the "when" Obama is referring to does not mean "now", which
it clearly does. He's not just saying "IF (young black men in
prison > college) THEN (we would have work to do)", he means "we
do now have work to do because (prison > college)". The
condition is fulfilled. If it's speculation about some state that
might exist in the future, why even say it?
Anonymo the Anonymous|10.3.07 @ 4:00PM|#
And when I said "The condition is fulfilled," I mean Obama's claim is that the condition is fulfilled -- I am not speaking to whether it is in reality.
|10.3.07 @ 4:15PM|#
" People don't sell drugs because they are black, white,
etc...they sell drugs because they want to make a quick and easy
dollar instead of working."
The dollars may be quick, but not very easy. Cocaine and crack
users keep some weird hours, other people are always trying to rip
you off or sell in your turf and the cops are always looking to
lock you up. Not a job with a lot of potential for career
development, unless you rise to kingpin through a stroke of luck
and hard work.
SLOT, IMHO, typical pot dealers are as close to free market
businessmen as you can have in this economy, no wonder pot's still
illegal.
Anonymo the Anonymous|10.3.07 @ 4:34PM|#
The dollars may be quick, but not very easy.
I'm not sure what it means to say the dollars are "quick", but
there sure aren't that many of them. Other than those at the top,
no one in the inner city crack/heroin business is making much,
especially relative to the hazards -- just like pretty much any
instance of organized crime. Doesn't anyone watch The
Wire? Wasn't there a whole chapter on this in
Freakonomics that said it's sub-minimum wage when
calculated hourly? Only benefit is it's cash under the table.
Now, a middling college town pot dealer with less (though nonzero)
risk of arrest or violence from competitors, yeah, I've known a few
who did quite alright.
|10.3.07 @ 4:35PM|#
There is no political suicide for the major political parties. Only eternal existence.
|10.3.07 @ 4:36PM|#
If you include all African-American men who are "in the system" i.e. parole, probation, etc, then you have to compare it to all African-American men who have received a degree. Just as those who have been to prison still feel the affects afterward, so to do those who possess a degree feel the effect.
|10.3.07 @ 5:06PM|#
If you are on probation or parole, you are not "feeling the
affects afterward." You are still experiencing the thing
itself.
The proper comparison to "all African-American men who have
recieved a degree" would be "all African-American men who were ever
in imprisoned, on parole, or on probation."
|10.3.07 @ 6:09PM|#
Don't taze me, Bro!
About this drug war then, "Conservatarians will even defend the
drug war if it helps them bash a Democrat", what, exactly, needs
defending?
Drugs = bad, drugs = illegal.
So what's wrong with a war against them?
Besides that, both Democrat candidates that the article "bashed"
mentioned nothing about the drug war. In other words, they aren't
against it. So to suggest that Conservatarianimistians would
"defend the drug war" in order to bash Democrats leaves out the
fact that democrats themselves don't seem to against it.
What kind of twisted logic is that, exactly?
JSMIITH|10.3.07 @ 8:13PM|#
see this is for the whole population of America. so he is speaking in general. but in l.A for e.g their have been 21 new prisons built in the last 21 years, compared to 1 college
|10.4.07 @ 12:06AM|#
Naturally, it was Edwards and Obama speaking, what else but stupidity could you ever expect?
Iron Man|10.4.07 @ 7:25AM|#
Hm, let's round the number up to say there are 2 million young black men in the U.S. If we assume 300 million Americans, that's .66% of the population. How in the world does .66% of the population get to dominate popular culture the way black men seem to do? One can hardly turn on the radio or TV without thinking they make up much more of the population than their influence would seem to indicate.
|10.4.07 @ 9:59AM|#
I say that if we put Barak Obama and John Edwards in a crowded cell full of black men, that both of them would soon be wearing rubber mini skirts and getting bum blasted by those poor, troubled, downtrodden dregs. I am starting to cry, due to the sadness of all of this.
|10.4.07 @ 10:25AM|#
This is not a political problem. This is a community problem.
Stop playing victim here. Nobody is holding a gun to your head and
forcing you to do drugs. If you have a time, go to library and reed
something, but if your choice is to hang out on the street late at
night, well it is still your choice. Look, my family immigrated
into USA 15 years ago and for 8 years we lived at Newark, NJ, and
guess what, me and my brother choose to get ahead. Instead of
playing outside, we choose to study hard; we went to prestigious
college, we finish it and now both of us making more money than
average person in USA. Why you ask, because we CHOOSE not to play
victim and blame everything on someone else. Because we CHOOSE to
study hard and get full scholarship to collage due to our good
grades and high SAT score.
Because we choose to obey LAW. So stop making excuses and start see
this problem for what it is.
Perry|10.4.07 @ 11:26AM|#
Um, yes while what Obama said is technically not true, you can
see this right on the BJS homepage:
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/prisons.htm
"At yearend 2005 there were 3,145 black male sentenced prison
inmates per 100,000 black males in the United States, compared to
1,244 Hispanic male inmates per 100,000 Hispanic males and 471
white male inmates per 100,000 white males."
So, to repeat - Black males are in jail at a ratio of about 7:1
compared to white males. Does anyone think that there ISN'T some
systemic problem behind that figure?
So everyone can gloat about catching the 'truth' behind his
comment, but it doesn't do one thing about trying to figure out how
to integrate more of our society into you know.. our society?
|10.4.07 @ 1:50PM|#
Expanding the age group to 30 is nice, but starting the age
group at 18 seems laughable.
Wouldn't the honest thing to do be to compare the number of people
in college during the college years (say, 18 - 23) with the number
in prison during the same period?
Or, if you want a wider age cohort, compare the number who are
attending or have attended college with the number in prison.
Anything else looks like cooking the numbers to me.
Black males are in jail at a ratio of about 7:1 compared to
white males. Does anyone think that there ISN'T some systemic
problem behind that figure?
Totally agree, but the question is, where does the problem lie? How
much is attributable to a dysfunctional subculture, and how much to
racist whites?
|10.4.07 @ 3:11PM|#
False dilemma, RC.
Night riders and Bull Connor are not the only way racial injustice
can manifest itself.
Lack of networking opportunities with professionally-successful
people, for example - there's no bigotted bad guy out screwing
black people and twirling his mustache, and yet that is going to
drive down incomes and drive up crime.
Political questions are best considered by thinking about systems,
not personalities.
Cadence Storm|10.5.07 @ 1:01PM|#
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