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You Betray the Son of Man With a Ball Gag
Now that you've picked your jaw up from the floor and wiped away
your pristine tears, tell me: What do you think of that ad? Because
the thought of this ad promoting "the grandaddy of all leather
events" is driving
Christian groups to fits of rage.
[Stephen Bennett, president of SBM and a former homosexua] said, "I call upon the homosexual Human Rights Campaign, GLAAD, GLSEN, and the Gay and Lesbian Task Force to publicly condemn this blatant mockery of Christians and Christianity by some within their community, and condemn this sick public display of immoral behavior. I call upon the Miller Brewing Company to pull their endorsement of this event. I call for the organizers of this filth to immediately apologize to Christians worldwide and remove this Last Supper mockery. I also call upon every law abiding official and citizen in America who has any morals to do what they can to shut down this Folsom Street 'Filth' Fair once and for all."
Dan Savage points out the tons and tons of Last Supper parodies already wafting through the culture and wonders what the big deal is. Andrew Sullivan has a challenge:
Next year, guys: do a similar parody on a sacred Muslim scene, if you have the balls. Easy, cheap blasphemy impresses no one.
Hm. How many "sacred Muslim scenes" are there, anyway? I can only think of one, although it would make for a dandy poster. Just imagine the double dildos and assless chaps.
|9.27.07 @ 11:16AM|#
So gays are pretty much not welcome by Jesus? Gays can't be forgiven like every other sinner?
|9.27.07 @ 11:17AM|#
"I call upon the Miller Brewing Company to pull their
endorsement of this event. I call for the organizers of this filth
to immediately ..."
I call upon ? Sure, this dude is a former sinner who found God, but
somebody oughta tell him not to overdo the biblical language.
|9.27.07 @ 11:18AM|#
Yes! Another silly little article about a few (and I mean few)
silly little Christian groups ranting against a silly little
advertisement.
Let's all fill the comments page with rabid frothing about the evil
Christians. 1, 2, 3, Pavlov go...
ed|9.27.07 @ 11:22AM|#
Har har! Love it. And yes, probably only American Gothic has been parodied more than The Last Supper. I guess we've turned a corner when so many high-profile companies are willing to sponsor this camp. That's a good thing. Not that the red fist doesn't creep me out a little.
Episiarch|9.27.07 @ 11:23AM|#
Next year, guys: do a similar parody on a sacred Muslim
scene, if you have the balls. Easy, cheap blasphemy impresses no
one.
But it can make one laugh, Andrew. However, I agree with him that
if you want to prove that you have balls as a religiously offensive
artist, mocking Mohammed is the way to go. Thing is, most
"offensive" artists are total poser pussies who are playing for the
gallery.
SPD|9.27.07 @ 11:23AM|#
Any similarities between this and the Last Supper are
entirely coincidental.
Maybe they're upset because "Jesus" is black? It's hard to tell
with fundies anymore.
|9.27.07 @ 11:25AM|#
Folsom Street Fair? Boy, did I take a wrong turn. I thought this was the Wholesome Street Fair!
New World Dan|9.27.07 @ 11:27AM|#
There's only one word for this ad: Fabulous!
The problem with doing a parody of a Muslim scene is that no one
would get it. Heck, I can't even think of any classic Jewish images
that would be great to parody.
|9.27.07 @ 11:29AM|#
Lamar,
the Christians don't say gay people aren't welcome, just that if
they come and join the fold they can't keep being gay. The logic
behind it is that yes, Jesus hung out with prostitutes and
taxpayers, but those people changed their sinful ways after
internalizing Christ's message.
That's why the aforementioned Stephen Bennet is a "former
homosexual."
Stephen the Goldberger|9.27.07 @ 11:30AM|#
this ad doesn't make any sense. what the hell does a leather festival have to do with the last supper before crucifixion? Unless crucifixion has become like a new bizarre fetish i've never heard about.
SIV|9.27.07 @ 11:31AM|#
I agree with Andrew Sullivan on this.
If you want to be daringly provocative do an offensive parody of
the Muslim faith.
Christianity historically has S&M and homo-erotic imagery in
sacred art.
Check
this out too.Smoking ban exemption for Muslims in
Vancouver.
|9.27.07 @ 11:31AM|#
Heck, I can't even think of any classic Jewish images that
would be great to parody.
I bring you the Fifteen [crash] Ten Commandments.
|9.27.07 @ 11:33AM|#
Brilliant ad.
To Andrew Sullivan, why the fuck would we parody Islam? Parodies
only work on texts, imagery, and iconography that people have an
opinion about in their respective culture. Last time I checked,
when it comes to homophobia in the U.S., Mohammed wasn't even on
the radar screen, but hysterical Christians were. I would love to
see more of this stuff because Christianity is silly and
annoying.
VM|9.27.07 @ 11:33AM|#
... say...
isn't that Crane in the mask, there?
next we need a version of the Sistine Chapel, and instead of
fingers touching, maybe the dongers or some boobs or
something.
and a fire truck. gotta have the fire truck.
um... (sneaks off to Stevo's bunk)
|9.27.07 @ 11:36AM|#
PS just to be clear I'm not a christian, don't think being gay is a sin, etc. I just don't like sloppy indictments of religions. But go after individuals all you like.
SIV|9.27.07 @ 11:36AM|#
Unless crucifixion has become like a new bizarre fetish i've
never heard about.
Think about it for a second: Whipping a naked guy, crown of thorns,
tied/nailed to a cross, penetrated by a spear by a guy wearing a
Roman soldier outfit......
Nothing new and nothing bizarre. BDSM motifs have their roots in
that religous martyr stuff.
|9.27.07 @ 11:38AM|#
The sight of that many shirtless sweaty beefcakes barely wrapped in tight leather probably caused Bennett to "reform" all over the inside of his drawers. The outrage is just a cover for his throbbing erection.
Syloson of Samos|9.27.07 @ 11:39AM|#
How many "sacred Muslim scenes" are there, anyway?
There aren't supposed to be any, right? I mean there isn't supposed
to be any Islamic iconography. That's why Islamic architecture (or
rather religious buildings) is full of calligraphy, flower motifs
and the like.
|9.27.07 @ 11:41AM|#
It should be noted that there are more exChristians than exgays.
And you rarely find an exChristian "accidentally" frequenting a
hangout for Christians.
Alas, poor Andrew. There are two things in the world he takes
seriously. God and himself. And far too often he gets the two
categories confused.
|9.27.07 @ 11:43AM|#
You homosexuals, sodomites, and sabbath violators are
GOING TO HELL!
How dare you mock a painting inspired by our inerrant holy book!
That's an insult.
People who live in glass houses...
Stephen the Goldberger|9.27.07 @ 11:43AM|#
Nothing new and nothing bizarre. BDSM motifs have their
roots in that religous martyr stuff.
I say that's a stretch. The ad is meaningless and merely meant to
offend/get attention for the fair. And it's worked perfectly.
|9.27.07 @ 11:45AM|#
I think the ad is absolutely brilliant. The Stephen Bennett
passage reads like a parody. Can anybody be *that* humorless?
Funny thing is that most Christians I know aren't so easily
offended, but then many of them are Papists, so I suppose the
Stephen Bennetts of the world don't recognize them as "true"
Christians. But even most of the fundies I know aren't as shrill as
the stereotype. What I see among the media-oriented fundies is a
lot of "professional outrage."
Brian Sorgatz|9.27.07 @ 11:45AM|#
lunchstealer:
Shouldn't St. Peter be portrayed by one of Heff's
bunnies?
It's spelled Hef, you fool!
ed|9.27.07 @ 11:45AM|#
If you want to be daringly provocative do an offensive
parody of the Muslim faith.
Done.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vi2RcI7LKCc
dhex|9.27.07 @ 11:48AM|#
i don't really see the last supper bit but maybe my monitor's
off or something?
also there are hookah exceptions to the smoking ban in nyc as well,
and it's not a religious thing. the national review should change
its diapers before posting idiocy.
Syloson of Samos|9.27.07 @ 11:49AM|#
Medieval Christian iconography, etc. (if you know how to "read" it) often enough mocks various aspects of the medieval church, society and indeed Christianity itself. You just have to look for stuff like a prophet as a ridiculed figure or some sort of mocked animal.
|9.27.07 @ 11:51AM|#
Andrew Sullivan should know better (I don't expect too much from
CWA). The iconic composition of the Leonardo Last Supper is what
recognisable. Tony Soprano as Jesus, apparantly a murdering thug is
not offensive, or Homer Simpson, or that great scene from MASH, and
on and on, but when the leather boys get ahold of
it..OMGZ!!!!
Let's see, what famous Muslim art composition could they
use...thinking, thinking, thinking..oh that's right, there isn't
one. I have a feeling that a riff on a classic Persian miniature
would fly right over everyone's head.
And as per usual, a poster for a local event now has national
coverage. So stupid. But it gets the Christian victimhood thing
going, good for donations and a good whinge.
I enjoy telling people so hepped up about this that the chances are
extremely high that Leonardo himslef was gay and a heretic..so the
"sacredness" of a fresco with world famous perspective is
undermined in the first place.
|9.27.07 @ 11:52AM|#
"Pinko, what's brilliant about the ad?"
Randolph, where to start...
First off it's a wicked parody of something that has been so often
parodied that one would think that parody in this case had run its
course. It clearly hasn't.
Secondly, it makes something that I normally think is creepy, the
leather fetish, look like an anaesthetized Romper Room.
Thirdly, all of the models look so earnest in their leather getups,
you know, like Rob Halford when he belts out Victim of Changes or
Frerddy Mercury. Dress up just cracks me up. Dress up in leather,
priceless.
And the whip as a halo behind the black Jesus's head made me
chuckle.
There, that wasn't that hard, and we didn't even get to any of the
specific props laid out, the composition within the frame, the faux
columns on the sheet behind them, etc.
If that all amounts to a sloppy indictment of religion, show me a
clean one. And remember, IT IS AN AD, not treatise.
|9.27.07 @ 11:55AM|#
"Assless chaps"? I think if they have asses, they are called "pants". Just like aunts with testicles are called "uncles".
|9.27.07 @ 11:57AM|#
I agree with Andrew Sullivan on this.
If you want to be daringly provocative do an offensive parody of
the Muslim faith.
Christianity historically has S&M and homo-erotic imagery in
sacred art.
How is it "daringly provacative" to do a parody of a minority
culture rather than doing a parody of the majority of the culture?
I think it is much more provocative to attack the people with real
influence and power who are trying to dictate what "normal" and
"natural".
Furthermore, last time I checked, in this country anyway, it's
mainly the Christians who are pushing the hate the gay agenda and
doing everything they can to demonise them. Wouldn't that be the
group you want to target with parodies? The ones that have a beef
with you and are attacking you every chance they get?
Oh yeah, I forgot, Muslims don't like people satirizing Mohamed. So
I guess that means everyone should parody them regardless of it
makes any sense or there is a reason to do so.
|9.27.07 @ 11:57AM|#
SIV is right, the crucifixion scene cliche among the BDSM
crowd.
The ad is brilliant because it pisses of the right people. The
religious overtones might strike a chord with a sub set (npi) of
the gay leather crowd. However, the entire gay community is united
in their animosity towards the fundy Christians who screech and
throw feces at them. What makes this ad so clever, is that almost
no one outside the gay community would see it if not for the
apoplectic fits being thrown by guys like Bennett. You can't help
but notice the irony of going out of ones way to obsess over being
offended.
|9.27.07 @ 11:57AM|#
sorry, Pinko, in re: the "sloppy indictments" I just assumed
that the thread would turn into another 103 post orgy of "huh huh
huh christians and their stupid religion are so stupid. They like
totally hate gay people and they probably ARE gay! huh huh
huh."
But that didn't happen, so kudos to H&R commenters.
Frankly, this isn't all that blasphemous, as long as everyone in
the picture is married to someone else in the picture...
|9.27.07 @ 11:58AM|#
"Just imagine the double dildos and assless chaps."
Jon, you read my mind. This has been covered many times before, but
somehow "assless chaps" continues to be trotted out, like
irregardless. I think that the word assless is so smile-inducing
that no one cares about the redundancy.
SPD|9.27.07 @ 12:02PM|#
...who would be Judas in this ad?
They all are, Tom. They. All. Are.
[/Stephen Bennett]
|9.27.07 @ 12:03PM|#
"How is it "daringly provacative" to do a parody of a minority
culture rather than doing a parody of the majority of the culture?
"
because as everybody knows (even honest leftwing journalists)
attacking/parodying christianity is de rigeur.
christianity has had a reformation. attacking christianity is like
trying to stab yourself with a noodle. it's all show, with no
risk.
people are AFRAID to parody mohammed. south park had a brilliant
(they usually are) episode on this. we all know it. yes, christians
are a majority. but they are not the ones demanding via threat of
(and often implementation of) deadly force that people "respect
their authoritah and liturgah"
there is nothing provocative about being the 1000th person to the
party, doing the same darn thing over and over and over
again.
yes, the christian faith (like all faiths) has the "perpetually
offended" talking heads. but that's ALL THEY ARE... talking
heads.
islam, as a religion, inspires numerous religious leaders in
numerous countries, to kill people for being homosexual.
have a koran dunking party. THAT would be provacative.
I think it is much more provocative to attack the people with real
influence and power who are trying to dictate what "normal" and
"natural".
|9.27.07 @ 12:03PM|#
Perfect idea for something offensive to the muslim faith.
A naked man with a beard and turbin nailing a little girl as a
poster for a NAMBLA event.
|9.27.07 @ 12:04PM|#
No problem Randolph.
But I should disclose that I think we can never have enough
blasphemy or dismissiveness vis-a-vis religion. Pointing out how
silly organized religion is does not have to be a lowbrow,
Beavis-and-Butthead style endeavor. I can actually show my contempt
without inane giggling.
lunchstealer|9.27.07 @ 12:05PM|#
Next year, guys: do a similar parody on a sacred Muslim
scene, if you have the balls. Easy, cheap blasphemy impresses no
one.
My first response was that if all jokes ever from here on out have
to be about Mohamed, the joke/parody world will be a boring
monochrome. Art, humor, and parody don't always have to go after
the biggest target. Artists should be free to tackle whatever
subject strikes their fancy.
I guess if you are going to prove that you have the biggest
art-as-blasphemy dick on a global scale, then yeah, you'd go after
Mohamed.
But that's a bit like saying "Hey, you just climbed Kilimanjaro,
next year, climb Mount Everest, if you have the balls" or "You just
wrestled a mountain lion. Don't you know that's only the fourth
largest species of big cat? Next year, wrestle a tiger, if you have
the balls."
If it's all about the balls, I'd argue that there may be more
violent muslims world-wide, but if you look at just the US, there's
a big, local contingent with a track record for producing
individuals willing to enact violence against homosexuals right
here in the US. Eric Rudolph was clearly getting support from
locals while he was a fugitive, after all.
Ultimately, of course, I don't think their target was offending
religious people. I think their goal was to get people to come have
leather fun at the Folsom Street Fair. And the types of folks who
will come to a leather parade are probably going to think that this
is hilarious, and conveys an irreverent attitude that they want to
be a part of. If they'd chosen Mohamed, it wouldn't convey
irreverence so much as confrontation. This is just taking
all the other last supper parodies and adding one more absurd
last supper parody to the list.
|9.27.07 @ 12:06PM|#
A real revolutionary act would be an airdrop of pallets full of liquor and bud into every dry county and country in the world. Then people will learn the meaning of freedom!
robc|9.27.07 @ 12:07PM|#
Speaking of a christian of what some might call relatively fundamentalism leanings (I dont use the word so I have no idea myself), I found the ad neither offensive nor funny nor brilliant. Pretty lame. I generally found irreligous humor (when based on an element of truth) very funny. Why am I supposed to be wiping away tears?
robc|9.27.07 @ 12:08PM|#
sigh, my typing skills are getting worse as time goes on:
Speaking as a
Sigh.
jimmy|9.27.07 @ 12:10PM|#
i don't see the relevance of the story to this website. private citizens are free to create ads, and other private citizens are free to complain about them, after all. is it suddenly "libertarian" to laugh at privately-held religious beliefs? or is it "libertarian" to automatically defend anything gays do? i'm a non-religious gay male, and this ad embarrasses me. this is why i have nothing to do with "gay culture," especially tired events like folsom street, with the same old aging leathermen and drag queens and house music every year. maybe the ad tittilates straight folk and gives them something to chuckle about, or makes them feel morally superior because they are so tolerant and hip. like the people who inexplicably kept laughing at "will and grace" after the first couple seasons, i guess. free people are free to adopt an infantile culture, but that doesn't automatically make them worthy of any great respect.
|9.27.07 @ 12:11PM|#
Whit, go do or say or make something that you think will piss off Muslims. Nobody here is going to stop you.
lunchstealer|9.27.07 @ 12:13PM|#
yes, christians are a majority. but they are not the
[only] ones demanding via threat of (and often
implementation of) deadly force that people "respect their
authoritah and liturgah"
Fixed it for ya.
While muslim extremists may be getting all the press,
Christians are not entirely without teeth.
|9.27.07 @ 12:14PM|#
You can't help but notice the irony of going out of ones way
to obsess over being offended.
Witness the explosion of blaspemous, derogatory images of the
prophet since the Danish cartoon riots. Not the cartoons, that went
unnoticed by the world at large. But after the riots, flag burning,
rending of clothing, people just couldn't help themselves. This
desecration doesn't make H&R w/o the outrage of Stephen
Bennett.
SPD|9.27.07 @ 12:14PM|#
jimmy,
Maybe we don't have to respect them, as you say, but Stephen
Bennett and others of his ilk want to, in his own words, "shut
[them] down." That tells me their reaction goes far beyond the
advertisement itself, into something far more extreme.
JBinMO|9.27.07 @ 12:14PM|#
"Next year, guys: do a similar parody on a sacred Muslim scene,
if you have the balls. Easy, cheap blasphemy impresses no
one."
These people are never gonna figure out that no one but them is
affraid of muslims.
|9.27.07 @ 12:16PM|#
"Whit, go do or say or make something that you think will piss
off Muslims. Nobody here is going to stop you."
i'm not trying to be provocative, edgy, etc. im saying that this ad
isn't either. and if that's the intent, the true provacateurs would
be ridiculing those who want to kill them (and do where they can),
and who kill people who criticize and mock them.
like i said, it's not offensive (at least to me). it's boring and
trite.
it's illusory provocation.
lunchstealer|9.27.07 @ 12:16PM|#
Randolph Carter | September 27, 2007, 12:06pm | #
A real revolutionary act would be an airdrop of pallets full of
liquor and bud into every dry county and country in the world. Then
people will learn the meaning of freedom!
Syloson of Samos|9.27.07 @ 12:17PM|#
I've never quite understood this sort of argument concerning who is an appropriate object of parody. That sort of thing seems like a choice best left to the individual or group doing the parody.
lunchstealer|9.27.07 @ 12:18PM|#
Oops, preview people.
A real revolutionary act would be an airdrop of pallets full of
liquor and bud into every dry county and country in the world. Then
people will learn the meaning of freedom!
Just booze and bud? We're already way beyond that.
lunchstealer|9.27.07 @ 12:19PM|#
I've never quite understood this sort of argument concerning
who is an appropriate object of parody. That sort of thing seems
like a choice best left to the individual or group doing the
parody.
He said what I meant, only he used a LOT fewer words.
Syloson of Samos|9.27.07 @ 12:20PM|#
whit,
What is and isn't provactive is a matter of taste. You can't find
the molecular weight or some such of the provactive.
dhex|9.27.07 @ 12:21PM|#
it's illusory provocation.
the only one being provoked is mr. bennett.
i don't think it's meant to be edgy so much as familiar and cute.
(it took a while but i see the last supper motif, finally...)
|9.27.07 @ 12:23PM|#
Re: Assless chaps.
As noted all chaps are in fact assless. The purpose they were
designed for is to protect your pants while riding a horse on the
dusty planes. They perform the same purpose when worn on a
motorcycle riding the highways and byways of America.
What is key here is that they are meant to be worn over
pants. When worn without pants they are obviously not being worn
for the purpose they were designed for. Chaps without pants expose
the ass. Hence the term assless chaps.
Stephen the Goldberger|9.27.07 @ 12:23PM|#
Sullivan's point is that in the western intellectual communities christian religions have been mocked and ridiculed mercilessly already. Why not mock and ridicule Islam, a faith which has official governments which are even LESS tolerant of homosexuality. It's vogue to condemn christianity but when it comes to Islam we must practice tolerance of others' beliefs. In any case I stand by my original statement that the ad's purpose was to generate publicity (as all ads are) with meaningless controversy and it worked.
Syloson of Samos|9.27.07 @ 12:23PM|#
lunchstealer,
Well, to the folks who made the ad apparently this sort of ad has
greater resonance than one dealing with Islam. I really don't find
that particularly surprising. If folks want to parody Islam they
shouldn't demanding that this group of folks do that they should be
doing it themselves.
neil|9.27.07 @ 12:23PM|#
So let me get this straight: the people who are misinterpreting
this as an attack on Christianity believe that next year, they
should attack Islam instead?
Alternatively, maybe they were trying to make an eye-catching
poster to promote their event instead of a religious/political
statement. What a concept!
Syloson of Samos|9.27.07 @ 12:25PM|#
Stephen the Goldberger,
I get his point, I simply don't agree with it.
|9.27.07 @ 12:27PM|#
Hey robc... I think that the fact that the ad doesn't offend an
intelligent christian is half the point. Its only the knee-jerk
fundies that get upset about this kind of thing... and they are
exactly the people who deserve to be shaken up a little. There's
nothing more here than a (successful) attempt to stir up
interest.
But then again, I get just as offended when people attack freedom
of speech and hide under the banner of 'religion'.
|9.27.07 @ 12:29PM|#
OK you people claiming this ad isn't provocative are going to
make my head explode. The only reason this thread exist if because
it provoked people. People like Stephen Bennett, and Andrew
Sullivan. In other words All the right people. The fact
that this is lost on Sullivan is doubly funny.
I guess this point is more subtle than I first thought.
Stephen the Goldberger|9.27.07 @ 12:31PM|#
yeah i disagree with his point in terms of "creating a successful ad to generate publicity" but agree with his point in terms of "creating an ad which stirs debate and generates controversy" which would be pretty dumb. If you're looking to ads for social commentary and are upset to find something "easy and cheap" then you're clueless.
shecky|9.27.07 @ 12:32PM|#
I saw when Sullivan got huffy about this a couple days ago. I
don't see the big deal. There's a pretty long tradition of
parodying The Last Supper.
I think it'd be cute to make a parody putting Islamic figures in
the scene, with Muhommad as Jesus. Trouble it, I don't think anyone
would recognize any of the figures.
Jennifer|9.27.07 @ 12:32PM|#
Next year, guys: do a similar parody on a sacred Muslim
scene, if you have the balls. Easy, cheap blasphemy impresses no
one.
This makes as much sense as saying "Instead of parodying
Republicans, why don't you have the balls to go after the
neo-Nazis?" It's not because I'm afraid of neo-Nazis; it's because
neo-Nazis don't have actual political power in this country, but
Republicans do.
|9.27.07 @ 12:33PM|#
"What is and isn't provactive is a matter of taste. You can't
find the molecular weight or some such of the provactive."
well duh.
it's a matter of opinion as to the provocative nature of a piece of
(loosely defined) "art".
of course it's opinion and it's subjective. it is of course backed
up by the fact that few christians do more than sigh (if that) when
they see such stuff because they are used to it (especially in
frisco). again, it's boring. it's trite. it's been done
before.
something like "last temptation of christ" was provocative, as a
counterexample. it was also a great movie. piss-christ was
provocative. this is just trite. it's smacks of desperation. it's
like the nerdy kid trying to be kewl. it just looks silly
|9.27.07 @ 12:33PM|#
Why not mock and ridicule Islam, a faith which has official
governments which are even LESS tolerant of
homosexuality.
Because American Muslims aren't irritating the gay community the
way the Christians are. It's not about who is most offensive it's
about who is offending you most.
|9.27.07 @ 12:37PM|#
"This makes as much sense as saying "Instead of parodying
Republicans, why don't you have the balls to go after the
neo-Nazis?" It's not because I'm afraid of neo-Nazis; it's because
neo-Nazis don't have actual political power in this country, but
Republicans do."
they don't have much political power, but they have plenty of
power. they scared the NYT et al into NOT printing frigging
cartoons that were undeniably newsworthy. the same media outlets
that had no problem posting various other such stuff in regards to
christians and jews, and that vilified guiliani for daring to
suggest that art offensive to christians should not be in first in
line for PUBLIC funding, was completely afraid of showing cartoon
images of muslims.
as im sure the bush admin would admit, having power over the NYT in
getting them not to print stuff is REAL power, whether or not it is
political.
that is a very real power. but you are correct, muslims have very
little political power.
as one (honest lefty journalist) admitted, journalists (himself
included) had no problem criticizng/mocking christians and their
"holy" artifacts because they knew it was safe to do so. otoh, he
(and any honest journalist) freely admits that doing the same with
islam was too dangerous
if that's not power, nothing is.
Stephen the Goldberger|9.27.07 @ 12:39PM|#
Because American Muslims aren't irritating the gay community
the way the Christians are. It's not about who is most offensive
it's about who is offending you most.
Good point. It's a good ad, will get people's attention, and will
attract people in the leather community who are unlikely to be
alienated by it's mockery of the last supper (and will probably
enjoy it given American christian intolerance). I don't think
Sullivan or Bennett (even though he probably wants to) would be
coming to this event anyways so to piss them off would be
meaningless, and generates good pub.
lunchstealer|9.27.07 @ 12:39PM|#
Sullivan's point is that in the western intellectual
communities christian religions have been mocked and ridiculed
mercilessly already. Why not mock and ridicule Islam
Stephen,
Well we would mock Islam, but there are two big problems with that.
A - Islam rarely gets up in our personal grill. Grow up in a place
like South Carolina and you'll get a strong sense of Christianity
as an issue. Islam will sound like some crazy thing done in a
desert across the ocean, but Christianity keeps putting flyers on
your door. I never got an Ali Tract as a kid, but I've seen lots of
Chick Tracts (in the wild, mind you, not just on snarky libertarian
blogs) telling me all the ways I'm going to hell.
B - The West has chosen a different form of mockery for Islam. Our
mockery of Islam right now is of a more military,
bombs-from-the-sky and troops-going-door-to-door variety.
|9.27.07 @ 12:41PM|#
robc,
If the ad doesn't offend you, then you aren't the one it was
intended to offend. Unless you think homosexuals are evil and
should not be extended the same rights and privileges under the law
as everyone else.
People who are offended by this ad.
People opposed to same sex marriage.
I'll bet the the union and intersection (pi) those sets differs by
less than 5%
robc|9.27.07 @ 12:42PM|#
Speaking of Chick tracts, thats some good parody. Unlike this hack work, they actually manage to offend me on occassion.
Syloson of Samos|9.27.07 @ 12:45PM|#
whit,
Lots of American newspapers reprinted the cartoons. Of course
reprinting them wasn't really necessary, since they were plastered
all over the internet.
robc|9.27.07 @ 12:45PM|#
Warren,
Im not offended.
Homosexuality (not the people) is evil.
Im opposed to same sex marriage.
Im also opposed to government licensed marriage in general.
Maybe Im part of the 5%, but I dont think so.
If your goal is to offend, go after me, Im a tough target.
Offending the easily offendable is lame. Heck, I do it by accident
on nearly a daily basis.
|9.27.07 @ 12:46PM|#
they don't have much political power, but they have plenty
of power. they scared the NYT et al into NOT printing frigging
cartoons that were undeniably newsworthy. the same media outlets
that had no problem posting various other such stuff in regards to
christians and jews, and that vilified guiliani for daring to
suggest that art offensive to christians should not be in first in
line for PUBLIC funding, was completely afraid of showing cartoon
images of muslims.
Uhmm whit, it sounds like your beef with the ad is that it doesn't
go after the people you would prefer being targetted.
I don't think the gay community overall gives a shit about whether
or not Muslims were able to silence the NY times. What would be the
purpose of mocking Muslims in an ad promoting this event -- other
than gratuitous mockery without any real purpose?
It's like your bothered with the Folsom people because their
priorities aren't aligned with yours.
SIV|9.27.07 @ 12:46PM|#
sorry, Pinko, in re: the "sloppy indictments" I just assumed
that the thread would turn into another 103 post orgy of "huh huh
huh christians and their stupid religion are so stupid. They like
totally hate gay people and they probably ARE gay! huh huh
huh."
But that didn't happen, so kudos to H&R commenters.
Randolph:
Did you miss ChicagoTom's comment at 11:57?
So fucking knee-jerk leftist cliched it read like parody.
|9.27.07 @ 12:47PM|#
Knee-jerk fundies use this for fund-raising purposes. Sort of like the hypocrite theater group in Tennesse vs. Kathy Griffin. It was a publicity stunt. These people think Jesus waltzed into the Temple and said, "Christ, we need more money changers."
SIV|9.27.07 @ 12:50PM|#
Jennifer:
There is this little thing outside the borders of our country
called "the rest of the world". It has a billion Muslims in it and
they have power.The idea Muslims have no political power in the US
is absurd.
|9.27.07 @ 12:50PM|#
Speaking of Chick tracts, thats some good parody. Unlike
this hack work, they actually manage to offend me on
occassion.
Chick tracts aren't parody. That's what makes them funny.
|9.27.07 @ 12:51PM|#
(sees pic, does double-take, looks even more closely...)
"Dad?!?"
"Awww... come on...."
robc|9.27.07 @ 12:52PM|#
Warren,
Am I going to have to add you to the list with joe
of people who dont get my jokes?
At this point, its probably easier to just keep a list of people
who do get my jokes.
D. Greene|9.27.07 @ 12:52PM|#
"I call upon the Miller Brewing Company to pull their
endorsement of this event."
Evangelical Christians boycotting beer? Miller Brewing Co. must be
positively shaking in their leather stirrups.
|9.27.07 @ 12:54PM|#
Warren,
I think everyone gets that chaps are assless. That's what makes
them chaps. But why not then call a speedo "legless pants", or a
vest a "sleeveless shirt"? More to our point, the equivalent would
be calling a speedo a legless ballhugger or a vest a sleeveless
vest. Do these assless chaps folks do that? Of course they don't.
They have committed a specific redundancy that can be
corrected.
They, unlike the leather daddies in the ad, can still be saved.
Chaps are assless without saying they are assless. What people
(myself and a few other annoying pedants) are taking issue with is
that the term assless is entirely redundant.
Chaps are assless pants and not assless chaps.
|9.27.07 @ 12:55PM|#
"Uhmm whit, it sounds like your beef with the ad is that it
doesn't go after the people you would prefer being
targetted."
your hearing is off :)
like i said, my only criticism of the ad is that it is boring,
uninteresting and trite.
i have no problem with edgy, interesting, provocative parody of
christians, or anybody else. like i said, i thought last temptation
of christ was excellent.
i love south park (that routinely skewers christians), etc.
i am saying that it is about as provocative (especially in san
fran) as a PTA meeting.
"I don't think the gay community overall gives a shit about whether
or not Muslims were able to silence the NY times."
your omniscience into the mind of the 'gay community' is
amazing.
" What would be the purpose of mocking Muslims in an ad promoting
this event -- other than gratuitous mockery without any real
purpose? "
right. mocking people that want to actually kill you (vs. not
wanting you to get married), and routinely do all over the world,
has no purpose whatsoever. also, courage is admirable. it takes
courage to mock people who are significantly more likely to respond
violently.
|9.27.07 @ 12:55PM|#
D. Greene
Miller did require them to remove the Miller logo I believe, so
yeah.
robc|9.27.07 @ 12:56PM|#
D. Greene,
Evangelical Christians boycotting beer? Miller Brewing Co. must
be positively shaking in their leather stirrups.
I should start an org: Southern Baptist Homebrewers of America.
Membership might be a bit low. I already boycott Miller though, but
thats because they suck.
robc|9.27.07 @ 12:57PM|#
I just realized SBHA wont work, you could never get two of us at the same meeting.
Loundry|9.27.07 @ 12:57PM|#
Because American Muslims aren't irritating the gay community
the way the Christians are.
Pardon me, but what gave you the right to speak for the
offendedness of all gay people everywhere? As a voting member of
the gays, I think that conservative Christians are pretty
well-tamed. They practically have to apologize for looking anti-gay
nowadays! Sodomy laws are gone, and homosexual sex is much more
tolerated than it's ever been. Sure, I'd love to have marriage
rights, but that's simply not going to happen until a few million
crunchy old Christian codgers die off. So I take heart in the fact
that I live a better life as a gay man than most gay men do in the
world, and I count my blessings. Christians hardly even register to
me any more.
It's not about who is most offensive it's about who is
offending you most.
Is that a tacit admission that Muslims are more offensive than
Christians? I have to agree with you! Islam has all of the bad that
Christianity has and none of the good. The death penalty for
homosexuality is Islamic law. Period. And I'm supposed to tolerate
that? What an evil religion! Islam delenda est!
What's more, I find all of the justifications for not parodying
Islam by the supposedly "brave" and "provocative" art aficionados
here to be pathetic. What a bunch of pussies you are. Just admit
that you're afraid of being killed by Muslims and that is precisely
why you won't parody their pedophile murderer of a "prophet".
|9.27.07 @ 1:01PM|#
Pinko,
We say 'assless chaps' because it flows off the tongue better than
'chaps worn without pants so everybody will notice your big, harry,
pale, framed ass cheeks'
Alan|9.27.07 @ 1:01PM|#
I think the ad's great, but it did remind me of this classic
Onion article:
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28491
|9.27.07 @ 1:03PM|#
"The idea Muslims have no political power in the US is
absurd."
No it isn't, SIV. Muslims have no power to push a homophobic agenda
domestically outside of, say, whatever the Hell district Dearborn,
Michigan is in. None.
There are no equivalent Mullah Dobsons or Mullah Robertsons or any
sort of Muslim 700 Club or Focus on the Fatwa.
This leather Fair is not happening in Mecca or Rabat. It's
happening in San Fran. The fundie Christians are deservedly the
target.
It is your comment that is absurd.
Rhywun|9.27.07 @ 1:09PM|#
I haven't RTFA but does it say where this ad appears? I
mean, I can't imagine this ad appearing anywhere but a gay
magazine which begs the question of how the "ex-gay" found the ad
in the first place.
there are hookah exceptions to the smoking ban in nyc as well,
and it's not a religious thing
It isn't? I can't imagine what else it could possibly be.
|9.27.07 @ 1:11PM|#
The idea Muslims have no political power in the US is
absurd.
A quibble, but there is one Muslim congressman (Keith Ellison).
lunchstealer|9.27.07 @ 1:12PM|#
Are they naked gay angels clad only in chaps?
That's just ridiculous. Everyone knows gay naked angels don't dance
on pins. That's an offensive stereotype.
dhex|9.27.07 @ 1:12PM|#
It isn't? I can't imagine what else it could possibly
be.
they're treated like cigar bars.
Just admit that you're afraid of being killed by Muslims and
that is precisely why you won't parody their pedophile murderer of
a "prophet".
stop chuggin' the weaksauce, bro.
SIV|9.27.07 @ 1:13PM|#
there are hookah exceptions to the smoking ban in nyc as
well, and it's not a religious thing
It isn't? I can't imagine what else it could possibly
be.
The article in the Vancouver news said it is a cultural thing. Of
course the brilliant dhex says it is wrong because Steyn at NRO
links to it.
|9.27.07 @ 1:16PM|#
SIV -
My friends and I used Hookahs all the time in college, and it
wasn't a cultural thing at all.
We had a different name for them though.
I think we called them "Bongs" or something like that.
lunchstealer|9.27.07 @ 1:17PM|#
The idea Muslims have no political power in the US is
absurd.
Absolutely. Fundamentalist Muslims are the reason that you can't
buy beer after midnight on Sundays sundown on Fridays
around here. They were also instrumental in passing the various
defense-of-marriage amendments around the country, because
fundamentalist Muslims are terrified that if we allow same-sex
marriage, it might lead to polygamy.
|9.27.07 @ 1:18PM|#
I'd call on Stephen Bennett to kiss my ass, except the utter bullshit behind the phrase "former homosexual" suggests that it might not be a wise course of action.
SIV|9.27.07 @ 1:18PM|#
pinko,
Where is this alternate universe?
This leather Fair is not happening in Mecca or Rabat. It's
happening in San Fran. The fundie Christians are deservedly the
target.
Th one where Fundy Christianists control San Francisco?
iih|9.27.07 @ 1:20PM|#
Pinko:
No it isn't, SIV. Muslims have no power to push a homophobic
agenda domestically outside of, say, whatever the Hell district
Dearborn, Michigan is in. None.
In fact it was in Michigan that there was a potential coalition
between Muslims and Gay groups to push for the redefinition of
marriage from "one man - one woman" to something more general that
may allow for same sex marriage and "one man - 'more than one'
woman". There was a debate back in 2005, but I have not followed up
on it since then.
Muslims could be some open minded people if you ask me. Just don't
rely on the two-minute snippets that the MSM feeds repeatedly
24/7.
|9.27.07 @ 1:20PM|#
The best reason for not parodying Islam in this type of ad is that no one would get it. Islamic art does not have iconic status in the USA and is probably far too abstract to have any resonance in such a parody, anyway. The ad would be nothing more than a bunch of ornate flowery abstraction with classical Arabic calligraphy thrown in. Not very funny.
|9.27.07 @ 1:22PM|#
For those who don't get it, it's about the titillation of symbolic transgression. There's a prominent BDSMer in the D.C. area who has an exceptional outfit in which he performs ceremonies as Cardinal Sin and another who wears a complete nun's habit as Sister Holy Terror. It's unsurprising how many BDSMers are, or were, Catholic.
|9.27.07 @ 1:25PM|#
The only thing that creeps me out there is the lady that looks like a furry. Is she supposed to be a pony girl? The picture isn't high enough resolution to tell and I'm not about to search for a better one at work.
|9.27.07 @ 1:26PM|#
You could call them "pantsless chaps," but then people will think you're talking about de-pantsed Limeys.
lunchstealer|9.27.07 @ 1:28PM|#
Rimfax,
I think it's supposed to be more of a Divine/Vegas-showtranny look,
only more leather.
|9.27.07 @ 1:29PM|#
" I can't imagine this ad appearing anywhere but a gay magazine
"
in San Francisco?
you are kidding me right?
dhex|9.27.07 @ 1:29PM|#
Of course the brilliant dhex says it is wrong because Steyn
at NRO links to it.
hey fuckwit, where do you live?
i live in the motherfucking dream capital of the eternal cosmic lie
you call the united states (i.e. the place with the ban in
question) and there is an exception in said ban (besides some bars
in the bronx, brooklyn, staten island, queens and manhattan after
midnight on a saturday because they can get away with it) for cigar
bars. now we all know that the islamofacist regime is big on cigars
(because of bill clinton, a notorious sixth columnist whose little
cigar gag was a typical islamo-illuminati in-joke) and uh ok
sigh...
listen it's real simple. cigar bars and other establishments which
could show that a significant portion of their income came from
tobacco sales could still have smoking. now a bunch of the hookah
bars in jackson heights and surrounding environs (we're also
talking like 25 bars or something like that here) are apparently
getting some cop harassment here and there because of the whole
nannystate smoking is evil especially in a place that's explicitly
about smoking thing but that's an issue with this shit.
anyhoo...yeah. incidentally, steyn is a fucking baby.
dhex|9.27.07 @ 1:32PM|#
rimfax, are you thinking of the sisters of perpetual
indulgence?
also bongs are not hookahs, kids. hookahs have tubes. bongs have
grateful dead stickers.
and now you know...
iih|9.27.07 @ 1:36PM|#
The best reason for not parodying Islam in this type of ad
is that no one would get it. Islamic art does not have iconic
status in the USA and is probably far too abstract to have any
resonance in such a parody, anyway. The ad would be nothing more
than a bunch of ornate flowery abstraction with classical Arabic
calligraphy thrown in. Not very funny.
Right, and you do raise a good, slightly irrelevant, point -- the
West does not appreciate Islamic "culture" because much of it is
abstract such as calligraphy, let alone in an entirely different
language, and geometric and other artistic designs. In my office I
have a hand drawing of a bird made out of the words "In the Name of
God, the Most Merciful, the Most Gracious". Visitors only see the
bird, I further see the caligraphy out of which the bird is
constructed, and, more importantly, the message it conveys. The
"bird" symbolizes freedom, and the "bird" is made out of a
fundamental Islamic statement "In the name of God...". But that is
too abstract for the (much above) average visitor Joe I get in
office.
While other activities are dormant, the aspect of Islam that gets
filtered to Western media is the most striking aspect of Islamic
societies today -- violence -- even though violent Muslims are a
very small percentage of the overall population (when was the last
time you saw violent Malays, violent Moroccans, in the most part
Egyptians, or Ethiopian, Ghanaian, Senegalese or Chinese (oppressed
50M people in Western China) Muslims?
|9.27.07 @ 1:36PM|#
dhex -
For the record, our bong had tubes AND GD stickers.
Just wanted to set that straight...
iih|9.27.07 @ 1:38PM|#
I forgot to add that Islamic culture/art is best known for the prose (poetry, poetic daily spoken word, etc), far less accessible to the Westerner, except for the Sufi Westerners (and even they, they read a mere translation).
Mel Gibson|9.27.07 @ 1:38PM|#
Think about it for a second: Whipping a naked guy, crown of
thorns, tied/nailed to a cross, penetrated by a spear by a guy
wearing a Roman soldier outfit......
Um...I'll be in Stevo's bunk.
|9.27.07 @ 1:40PM|#
iih,
I read a bunch of Sufi stuff a while ago, and the concordance
pieces I had that explained all the wordplay/double meanings was
bigger than the text itself. I guess I'll just have to learn
Persian.
Rhywun|9.27.07 @ 1:41PM|#
in San Francisco? you are kidding me right?
Oh please. I've lived in San Francisco and it's not all that you
imagine.
they're treated like cigar bars.
Ah. I think I'll open up a BYOB cigarette bar and see how far I get
with that.
dhex|9.27.07 @ 1:42PM|#
For the record, our bong had tubes AND GD stickers.
Just wanted to set that straight...
multitasking, ehhh?
the real question being ice cubes or hot water?
dhex|9.27.07 @ 1:46PM|#
Ah. I think I'll open up a BYOB cigarette bar and see how
far I get with that.
yeah good luck with that. there's all of like 15 cigar bars in the
city iirc anyway.
on the other hand you could smoke in the old nat sherman store
(dunno about the new one, they're moving) in the upstairs humidor
area.
|9.27.07 @ 1:50PM|#
So, an image making a mockery of their faith is put up and those
evil Nazi Christians...
Peacefully protest, exercise their free speech rights, and call on
advertisers to pull out of sponsorship of the event.
Those evil Christians! /sarcasm.
Jennifer|9.27.07 @ 1:51PM|#
There is this little thing outside the borders of our
country called "the rest of the world". It has a billion Muslims in
it and they have power.The idea Muslims have no political power in
the US is absurd.
So what pieces of anti-gay-rights legislation in America passed
thanks to the upswell of Muslim support? Or, alternately, what
piece of pro-gay-rights legislation failed because of the American
Muslim outrage?
Rhywun|9.27.07 @ 1:52PM|#
there's all of like 15 cigar bars in the city iirc
anyway.
My impression of that exemption was that it was meant to appease
the good ol' boy network. I wouldn't be at all surprised if
new smoking establishments were prohibited.
iih|9.27.07 @ 1:53PM|#
Randolph Carter:
I personally did not like the prose because it was too abstract,
but I preferred reading the treatises such as Ibn Al-Araby's.
iih|9.27.07 @ 1:55PM|#
Jennifer:
So what pieces of anti-gay-rights legislation in America passed
thanks to the upswell of Muslim support? Or, alternately, what
piece of pro-gay-rights legislation failed because of the American
Muslim outrage?
None. To the contrary, above I said:
In fact it was in Michigan that there was a potential coalition
between Muslims and Gay groups to push for the redefinition of
marriage from "one man - one woman" to something more general that
may allow for same sex marriage and "one man - 'more than one'
woman". There was a debate back in 2005, but I have not followed up
on it since then.
Loundry|9.27.07 @ 1:56PM|#
Absolutely. Fundamentalist Muslims are the reason that you
can't buy beer after midnight on Sundays sundown on Fridays around
here.
lunchstealer, I don't know where you live, but in the fine state of
Georgia (where Sunday liquor sales to *consumers* are part of the
many thousands of state liquor laws here) the so-called "Blue Laws"
are a result of collusion between Southern Baptists and liquor
distributors. I know it's fun to play "bash the Christian" around
here, but we as devotees of "reason" (yeah, right) should be
counted on to put blame on all the appropriate parties.
dhex|9.27.07 @ 1:57PM|#
My impression of that exemption was that it was meant to appease
the good ol' boy network. I wouldn't be at all surprised if new
smoking establishments were prohibited.
as far as i know the one loophole is if you're the owner and the
sole operator of a place, which applies to one or two joints in the
whole city. (someone was telling me about this the other day)
SIV|9.27.07 @ 1:58PM|#
dhex
Vancouver BC not New York City
Are you fucking retarded? Or just functionally illiterate?
dhex thinks he lives here
There I cleaned upthe nasty National Review link so you won't get
all scared by mean old Mark Steyn. You fucking stupid pussy.
SIV|9.27.07 @ 2:00PM|#
Looks like they may close the cigar establishments in Vancouver- not part of Muslim Culture and all.
|9.27.07 @ 2:05PM|#
"If you want to be daringly provocative do an offensive parody
of the Muslim faith."
Every day my dog farts allah.
|9.27.07 @ 2:05PM|#
I call on all my followers to stop fighting. My father's house has many closets.
|9.27.07 @ 2:07PM|#
""If you want to be daringly provocative..."
Say something true and negative about black folk (e.g., nigger is a
mental illness)
iih|9.27.07 @ 2:07PM|#
There is another major difference between the "offensiveness" of
this ad to Christians and the "offensiveness" of the Danish
cartoons to Muslims:
While it may be true that the people behind the ad meant it to be
offensive to Christians, we really can't tell. May be they are
saying "we're gay but we are also Christian" kind of thing.
The Danish cartoons were outright in-your-face offensive. It came
across to Muslims as saying "we know it offends you, and we mean
it". There was no room for any other "sincere" interpretation.
Rhywun|9.27.07 @ 2:10PM|#
SIV,
*I'm* the one who made the comparison to NYC--we are allowed to
make comparisons around here, you know; especially as without a
doubt more of us live in NYC than... Vancouver, was it?
Take a chill pill.
|9.27.07 @ 2:11PM|#
"The Danish cartoons were outright in-your-face offensive. It
came across to Muslims as saying "we know it offends you, and we
mean it". There was no room for any other "sincere"
interpretation."
That's just stupid. Have you even seen the Danish cartoons???
Jennifer|9.27.07 @ 2:12PM|#
IIH, I KNOW that Muslims aren't the ones behind most anti-gay attitudes in AMerica. That was the point of my comment.
iih|9.27.07 @ 2:13PM|#
VanDoosie:
When I said: The Danish cartoons were outright in-your-face
offensive.
I meant to Muslims. Yes, I have seen them.
iih|9.27.07 @ 2:15PM|#
Jennifer:
And I was in agreement with your comment. I think it came across
differently :-)
I do think Muslims do not have any political muscle in the US. But
they have learned a lesson the hard way after 9/11. They are
becoming more active nowadays, and in more pragmatic ways than one
may think (e.g., the coalition with gay groups back in Ann Arbor MI
at the time I was there in 2005).
SIV|9.27.07 @ 2:22PM|#
Rhywun lunchstealer,
dhex originally responded to my post about Vancouver that it had
nothing to do with them being Muslims.
The Dumbass didn't RTFA he just reacted knee-jerk because I linked
to Steyn's comment on it at NRO.
He started the name calling.
|9.27.07 @ 2:22PM|#
"Just imagine the double dildos and assless
chaps."
Hell, when am I NOT imagining them.
lunchstealer|9.27.07 @ 2:22PM|#
Loundry, my experience is with South Carolina and Texas, and it more or less mirrors yours. Southern Baptists aren't the only Christian denomination involved, but they're the big boys (49% of the population in SC, for example). I'm not so much concerned with whether there's a business dimension to blue laws, as with the fact that there ISN'T a discernable Mulsim dimension.
iih|9.27.07 @ 2:25PM|#
lunchstealer, Loundry,
Also, as far as I can tell, there weren't many Muslims during
prohibition. So it couldn't have been them back then. And it seems
that there may be other reasons for the prohibitions today other
than some Muslim influence.
SIV|9.27.07 @ 2:26PM|#
lunchstealer,
Eric Robert Rudolph is a Christian? That may be news to him. Even
if he is try using John Wayne Gacy as an example of homosexual
attitudes towards teenage males and see how far that gets ya.
|9.27.07 @ 2:29PM|#
It's not Muslims that stand around at FSF or gay pride marches
or block parties with huge signs telling people they are going to
hell and that god hates them. It's Christians.
So this ad manages to piss off the people that protest at every
little thing that we homos do while providing us with a good laugh
at the people who get offended (yes that includes prissy Mr
Sullivan who suddenly discovered prudishness in marriage after his
wanton youth). Mission accomplished no?
Also FWIW, FSF is about 50/50. About half the people there are
hetero and that scares the bejeezus out of the fundies: Oh noes,
the gay lifestyle is infecting the breeders, making them non-prudes
about sex. Quick, we must do something like throw a little tantrum
so people will laugh at us even more.
SIV|9.27.07 @ 2:32PM|#
the point about Muslims is they are a lot more dangerous to
provoke if one is trying to be religously provocative. US
Christians, for all their power, don't seem to have made a dent in
alchohl sales or open homosexuality.Contrast with Countries where
Muslims are the majority.
The Folsom Street festival poster seems to have upset a few fringe
Christians who are piggy-backing on it for PR purposes.Some sort of
Gay BDSM image involving the Koran or Prophet Mohammed would result
in riots and Fatwas world-wide.
dhex|9.27.07 @ 2:35PM|#
Vancouver BC not New York City
Are you fucking retarded? Or just functionally
illiterate?
hence my confusion as to why you got all uppity when rhywun and i
were clearly discussing nyc.
that the national review should change its diapers is simply a
public health issue.
SIV|9.27.07 @ 2:36PM|#
It's not Muslims that stand around at FSF or gay pride
marches or block parties with huge signs telling people they are
going to hell and that god hates them. It's Christians.
Do Christians do this or just Fred Phelps and family?
Let me illustrate with absurdity:
It isn't Christian heterosexuals who kidnap, torture rape, and kill
boys before burying them under the house...It is Homosexuals who
do.
iih|9.27.07 @ 2:37PM|#
Some sort of Gay BDSM image involving the Koran or Prophet
Mohammed would result in riots and Fatwas world-wide.
Probably yes. But why else other than ticking off a lot of Muslims
would one do that? Just for the joy of it? Then that would be
stupid.
SIV|9.27.07 @ 2:40PM|#
dhex,
you initially responded to my comment
I thread-jacked to the hookahs originally.
Loundry|9.27.07 @ 2:40PM|#
Probably yes. But why else other than ticking off a lot of
Muslims would one do that? Just for the joy of it?
I see your point. It's okay to find joy from ticking off
Christians, but stupid to find joy from ticking off Muslims.
Stupid because ... they will kill you, right? Just admit it,
coward.
Loundry|9.27.07 @ 2:42PM|#
It's not Muslims that stand around at FSF or gay pride
marches or block parties with huge signs telling people they are
going to hell and that god hates them. It's Christians.
It's not Christians who execute gay people, it's Muslims.
But those are foreign, brown-skinned gays, so they're expendable.
In any case, it's not our business to meddle in the execution
frenzy of fundamentalists who are not like us.
|9.27.07 @ 2:42PM|#
Some sort of Gay BDSM image involving the Koran or Prophet
Mohammed would result in riots and Fatwas world-wide.
Umm, call me when that affects the next venue of the White Party or
The Black and Blue Ball. The simple thing is that here and now,
where it matters and affects our day to day lives, Muslims are a
complete non-factor.
Coupled with the complete lack of pop-culture significance of
Muslims in America, how do you expect the general public to
actually get the joke?
You put Mohammed in a leather harness and everyone will just think
its another leather bear thing.
iih|9.27.07 @ 2:42PM|#
Oh wait.. another thought regarding playing with images and
ads...
Where does the "General Betray US" ad and the subsequent uproar
play into all this? Other than the Muslim violence part, didn't
those who expressed outrage and jumped to defend Petraeus because
of an ad stand on the same footing as some Chirstians in this ad's
case, as well as Muslims as far as the Danish cartoons go?
As far as the Muslim violence is concerned, while most Muslim
organizations (worldwide, but especially here in the US) approved
of the protests, they condemned the violent ones.
|9.27.07 @ 2:46PM|#
I think everyone missed an important libertarian take on this: A
small group of christians is trying to claim intellectual property
rights on The Last Supper, a work in the public domain. If this is
allowed, what other groups will try to claim control over use of
other public-domain iconography? And then who mediates between the
various sects who might have different ideas about allowable use of
that iconography?
BTW, the phrase "assless chaps" turns up a lot on H&R -- what's
up with that, Weigel?
dhex|9.27.07 @ 2:46PM|#
siv, and as i was pointing out, the nyc thing is different. that
steyn is a tard is, again, public record.
that steyn is a bedwetter is between him, his god and our
interwebs. (hallowed be their name)
Stupid because ... they will kill you, right? Just admit it,
coward.
also not very applicable, really, for the most obvious reasons
mentioned repeatedly.
i tell you what, i'm willing to bet you a medium sized soft drink
from any one of three major fast food retail chains that if, in 10
or 20 years, there's a sizeable enough muslim population to protest
and otherwise interfere in gay rights issues, you'll see a new
generation getting all up in that shit.
much like that cajun guy, i guar-un-teeeeee.
i mean, guys, this isn't like the buttery jesus and related
silliness, but rather cutesy reconfiguration of one of the most
obvious icons of the western tradition. it's something everyone
recognizes more or less instantly, even non-christians. (ok it took
me a while but the picture is small.)
Loundry|9.27.07 @ 2:47PM|#
I'm not so much concerned with whether there's a business
dimension to blue laws, as with the fact that there ISN'T a
discernable Mulsim dimension.
I agree with you. As far as blue laws go in the USA, it's NOT a
Muslim thing.
Muslims in other countries tend to use explosives on establishments
that sell liquor, as ALL liquor is banned under Shari'a law. That
is, of course, provided that there are any liquor stores to begin
with in the Muslim-shithole-in-question.
Islam delenda est!
|9.27.07 @ 2:48PM|#
It's not Christians who execute gay people, it's Muslims.
But those are foreign, brown-skinned gays, so they're expendable.
In any case, it's not our business to meddle in the execution
frenzy of fundamentalists who are not like us.
Well you got the foreign part right. We've got enough problems in
America dealing with the plenitude of homeless suicidal gay kids
that have been kicked out of their Christian homes. Maybe once we
solve our problems here, we'll be a little more focused on what's
going on in foreign countries.
Or I guess we could just invade them like we did Iraq and not make
a difference in the killings of homos. Then again, it's not like I
see you doing anything about that. It's just a convenient talking
point for you to bring up and say: See the Muslims are worse!
iih|9.27.07 @ 2:48PM|#
I see your point. It's okay to find joy from ticking off
Christians, but stupid to find joy from ticking off
Muslims.
You got only part of my point. Ticking off anyone is stupid.
Including Christians. It is the hard and stupid way to open up
dialog with people we disagree with.
Stupid because ... they will kill you, right? Just admit it,
coward.
Who will kill me? How many Westerners have been killed because of
the Muslim outrage at the cartoons? Not here in the US, but
worldwide? The only people who died in the outrage, where Muslim
protesters themselves.
I would say stupid because the West should not be perceived as
fighting Islam, but just fighting terrorism. Any major cultural
offense against Muslims will make the WOT as a War on Islam. It may
not be true, but this how it may be interpreted. Muslims may be
dumb to believe it as such, but that is the reality the state of
the World is today. So just be smart.
K.|9.27.07 @ 2:50PM|#
I think everyone missed an important libertarian take on
this: A small group of christians is trying to claim intellectual
property rights on The Last Supper, a work in the public
domain.
Even if it wasn't public domain, isn't satire and parody protected
by the first amendment?
Loundry|9.27.07 @ 2:51PM|#
dhex,
also not very applicable, really, for the most obvious reasons
mentioned repeatedly.
What "obvious reasons" are you referring to other than the craven
fear that Westerners have over offending thin-skinned, violent
Muslims? We've already seen several times the "reaction" we get
from the "Muslim street" when they get their precious feelings
hurt. It's up to us to come up with convoluted bullshit to cover up
for the fact that we don't want to "provoke" them for fear of
getting hurt. Screw that, and screw Islam with it!
iih|9.27.07 @ 2:53PM|#
In most neighborhoods in Cairo and the major cities in Egypt, you can get alcohol if you want. All major hotels sell alcohol (Hilton, Ramada, Marriott, etc), too. Same with Lebanon (if not far more), Damascus, Algeria, Morocco, and Dubai (but not the rest of the UAE). Probably in Kuait city. Certainly not KSA, Afghanistan, and 98% of Pakistan (some neighborhoods of Pakistan may -- so I have heard).
dhex|9.27.07 @ 2:56PM|#
What "obvious reasons" are you referring to other than the craven
fear that Westerners have over offending thin-skinned, violent
Muslims?
the utter lack of a muslim majority or even significant minority in
the united states partaking in anti-gay activities?
Loundry|9.27.07 @ 2:58PM|#
iih,
You got only part of my point. Ticking off anyone is stupid.
Including Christians.
I simply disagree with you. I have the right to say whatever I
want, and if they get ticked off it's their problem. No one has the
right not be offended. That said, the mood around here seems to be
that it's okay to intentionally piss of Christians for fun, but NOT
okay to do the same thing to Muslims. While that may not be your
view, that's the prevailing view on this blog. The clinical name
for this disease is vaginitis.
Who will kill me? How many Westerners have been killed because
of the Muslim outrage at the cartoons? Not here in the US, but
worldwide? The only people who died in the outrage, where Muslim
protesters themselves.
That means that the only people who will ever die are Muslims, and
Westerners can never be killed by Muslims, correct? Certainly we
should not be wary of the rise of Muslim immigration, the
radicalness of imams, or the influence of Saudi money, since we're
all invulnerable from Muslim attacks.
I dare you to go into a public place and burn a Koran. Would that
be less dangerous or more dangerous than doing the same with a
Bible? Be honest.
I would say stupid because the West should not be perceived as
fighting Islam, but just fighting terrorism. Any major cultural
offense against Muslims will make the WOT as a War on Islam. It may
not be true, but this how it may be interpreted. Muslims may be
dumb to believe it as such, but that is the reality the state of
the World is today. So just be smart.
Interesting. That is the precisely the view of the Bush
Administration.
iih|9.27.07 @ 3:00PM|#
Loundry:
Chill! Why don't you take the family and spend a couple of weeks in
Egypt during Christmas break? I have been there. It is a lot of
fun!
Loundry|9.27.07 @ 3:00PM|#
dhex,
the utter lack of a muslim majority or even significant
minority in the united states partaking in anti-gay
activities?
Oh, sorry, you were still framing this in terms of gay rights. We
were talking about two different things.
Outside of the frame of gay rights, are you afraid of offending
Muslims? Or are you completely fearless of whatever reaction a
Muslim might have to something you feel strongly about?
Loundry|9.27.07 @ 3:01PM|#
Chill! Why don't you take the family and spend a couple of
weeks in Egypt during Christmas break? I have been there. It is a
lot of fun!
In other words, the Muslims in Egypt are not particularly
devout?
dhex|9.27.07 @ 3:06PM|#
uh loundry, look above to the top of this very page you're
reading right now. what's the main post about?
ok - now that we're on the same page.
Outside of the frame of gay rights, are you afraid of offending
Muslims? Or are you completely fearless of whatever reaction a
Muslim might have to something you feel strongly about?
uh seeing as i'm a complete fucking heathen pervert materialist
freakadoodle with amazing taste in music and a totally awesome
haircut, i can't really say i'm very afraid of muslims or any other
group of religious folks who want to get their crazy on. i mean i
live in fucking sodom dude, and there's about a bazillion churches
and mosques (including the oh so scary park slope madrassa - named
after a christian no less - not too far away from home) and it
don't really mean much a doodle do.
not so hot on the government though, but that's more like typhoid
and ebola meets a japanese giant robot cartoon than a religion.
iih|9.27.07 @ 3:07PM|#
I simply disagree with you. I have the right to say whatever
I want, and if they get ticked off it's their problem. No one has
the right not be offended.
Sure you have the right. But it may be smarter, more practical and
pragmatic to be considerate of others' sensibilities. As George
Bernard Shaw said: Liberty means responsibility. That is why
most men dread it. All I am saying is just lets be responsible
(which does NOT equate to giving up rights).
That means that the only people who will ever die are Muslims,
and Westerners can never be killed by Muslims, correct? Certainly
we should not be wary of the rise of Muslim immigration, the
radicalness of imams, or the influence of Saudi money, since we're
all invulnerable from Muslim attacks.
That to me sounds like the collectivist crap that you get from Fox,
Rush Limbaugh, Michael Graham, Michelle Malkin, and the rest of the
gang who want to make of strong courageous free Americans a bunch
of bed-wetters.
Interesting. That is the precisely the view of the Bush
Administration.
Probably the only thing I agree with Bush on -- though his
"crusade" moment is still very vivid.
iih|9.27.07 @ 3:10PM|#
In other words, the Muslims in Egypt are not particularly
devout?
It may sound shocking to you, but they may be modestly devout --
many aren't today, and some are super-devout, but the major center
are just "observant Muslims" just like their "observant Christians"
counterparts here.
In any case, as dhex says, lets stay on message. We're kind of off
topic now.
dhex|9.27.07 @ 3:24PM|#
wait a minute......i totally pissed off a muslim guy's
girlfriend last years.
can i hang out with you loundry? you seem to know all the cool
boxes and lockers to hide in.
stephen the goldberger|9.27.07 @ 3:43PM|#
Btw the answer is five. Five angels wearing "chaps but not pants or underwear beneath them" can dance on the head of a pin.
|9.27.07 @ 3:43PM|#
It is funny that when it comes to choosing between Catholicism
and cocksucking, Sullivan always chooses Catholicism--except when
he is sucking cock, I suppose. But as soon as he busts his nut, you
can bet he'll be back on the Jesus train.
Such is the duality of man (or at least of a hopelessly conflicted
man).
PS: By employing the term "Jesus train", I am in no way implying
that Jesus ever pulled a train. (Although, being alone with 12 guys
in the desert...well, draw your own conclusions.)
dajenous|9.27.07 @ 3:44PM|#
If the creators of this photo had intended to offend the religiousness of some insecure Christians and get them pissed off, it certainly accomplished its goal. Failing that, I see no other motive for this kind of "art". I certainly think that the early Christians had to endure much worse things than this, and I'll be my next paycheck that none of them were ever accused of hating Gays.
Episiarch|9.27.07 @ 3:49PM|#
including the oh so scary park slope madrassa - named after
a christian no less - not too far away from home
Ha ha, you live in Park Slope, you poser--I didn't live there when
it was cool not to live there.
dhex|9.27.07 @ 4:24PM|#
Ha ha, you live in Park Slope, you poser--I didn't live
there when it was cool not to live there.
oh god no!
but i do live somewhat nearby.
man park slope on a saturday morning is deadly. i've seen elderly
women run down by stroller-wielding madladies at 20mph.
|9.27.07 @ 4:36PM|#
The whole Muslim aspect is a red herring. In order to please or offend, a "joke" or "art" must have some kind of cultural currency. In other words, the people looking at it must be familiar with the iconography. If I made a collage of Mohammed out of bacon bits and pork rinds no one would get it, and it wouldn't really matter because it doesn't carry any cultural currency in this country because of the relativly small Muslim sphere of influence. The whole issue of editors who wouldn't publish the Mohammed cartoons are irrelevant too, because said cartoons were all over the internet in no time, so the input of the magazines did not matter. Also, why is BDSM being ghettoized as a strictly "gay" thing?
Paul|9.27.07 @ 4:50PM|#
Dan savage is correct. What's the big deal:
However, so is Sullivan:
Next year, guys: do a similar parody on a sacred Muslim scene,
if you have the balls. Easy, cheap blasphemy impresses no
one.
Muslims have done one thing right in the last decade... they make
us all stop and think twice before we publicly mock them.
Sometimes:
In order to please or offend, a "joke" or "art" must have some
kind of cultural currency. In other words, the people looking at it
must be familiar with the iconography. If I made a collage of
Mohammed out of bacon bits and pork rinds no one would get it, and
it wouldn't really matter because it doesn't carry any cultural
currency in this country
An astute point. True in general. But drawing a picture of a guy
with a bomb for a turban did have cultural relevancy...
|9.27.07 @ 4:51PM|#
Failing that, I see no other motive for this kind of
"art".
It's an AD. It's not going to hang on somebody's goddamn wall, it's
supposed to get the name out there and make people think about
going there and giving them money. Jesus Christ, people.
|9.27.07 @ 5:06PM|#
Let's do a poll.
How many people reading this have ever been prevented from doing or
saying something by Muslims?
How many people reading this have ever been prevented from doing or
saying something by Christians?
Me first: there were a couple of times when I wanted to buy liquor
but couldn't, because of the Massachusettss blue laws.
Muslims? Can't think of any.
|9.27.07 @ 5:47PM|#
"How many people reading this have ever been prevented from
doing or saying something by Muslims?"
Well, I would like to put a big sign in my front yard that says
"There is no lie but allah and mohummad is his apostate liar", but
I'm kinda concerned about getting killed over it. So put me in the
"yes" column.
|9.27.07 @ 5:51PM|#
I've been prevented from doing and saying lots of stuff by my
mom, and she's way Christian.
Plus the blue laws thing. Those blow.
|9.27.07 @ 5:56PM|#
The Danish cartoons were outright in-your-face offensive. It
came across to Muslims as saying "we know it offends you, and we
mean it". There was no room for any other "sincere"
interpretation.
iih, if we don't have the freedom to say offensive thing, we don't
have freedom of speech at all. I have occasionaly said things with
the sole purpose of offending someone. People offend me
all the time as well. It is arrogant to claim that my offending
your religion is any more offensive (have we gotten the bugs out of
the offensivometer yet?)than the insults to my intelligence and
humanity that I quietly endure frequently. Theists don't get a free
pass on this shit! I'll leave now without posting something that
would be offensive to all theists. Why? Because I'm occasionaly a
nice guy.
|9.27.07 @ 6:05PM|#
"Oh please. I've lived in San Francisco and it's not all that
you imagine"
and while not living there, i've spent tons of time there. heck, i
have a permanent place in the lineup at ocean beach when the surf
gets big.
my point stands. it is not at all unusual to see an ad like this in
publications that do not exclusively cater to the "gay
community."
not that there's anything wrong with that :l
|9.27.07 @ 6:11PM|#
"How many people reading this have ever been prevented from
doing or saying something by Muslims?"
"Well, I would like to put a big sign in my front yard that says
"There is no lie but allah and mohummad is his apostate liar", but
I'm kinda concerned about getting killed over it. So put me in the
"yes" column."
based on upon the absurd and disgusting civil rights abuses being
committed in the name of islam, i would certainly take part in
protests. i am honest enough to admit i probably would not tear up
or defile a koran. why? well, first and foremost - i like to live.
i had the occasion to meet salman rushdie's wife and have a
conversation with her (on a ferry to martha's vineyard of all
places) oh so many years ago, and that was really a (to borrow a
leftist phrase) "click moment" for me.
|9.27.07 @ 6:16PM|#
"The whole issue of editors who wouldn't publish the Mohammed
cartoons are irrelevant too, because said cartoons were all over
the internet in no time, so the input of the magazines did not
matter"
utter rubbish. the primary issue isn't that people who really
wanted to see the pictures couldn't (with a little effort, an
internet account and a search engine). the issue is that many media
outlets were cowed into NOT publishing these pictures. it's not a
results based analysis (well, you could find them anyways if you
tried hard enough...), it's an analysis of the censorious power of
fear. the point is that there were some media outlets brave enough
to publish them, but many "big name" ones were not.
Paul|9.27.07 @ 6:27PM|#
joe, if I may:
How many people reading this living in Islamic
countries have ever been prevented from doing or saying something
by Muslims?
How many people reading this living in predominantly
Christian nations have ever been prevented from doing or saying
something by Christians?
Anyhoo, I certainly understand your point, however, it's the
cultural aspect we're talking about. How many times has a western
media outlet printed an opinion which offended Christians and then
put up a staunch "freedom of speech" response to Christian
criticism, vs. how many times has a western media outlet not
printed something that might offend Muslims and put up a staunch
"cultural sensitivity and responsibility" defense to Christian
criticism.
I'm an atheist, but it's pretty obvious that Christian themes are
fair game to make fun of (as they should be), but Muslim themes are
off-limits.
dhex|9.27.07 @ 7:06PM|#
so wait do you guys put up anti-christian signs on your
lawns?
who fucking does that?
highnumber|9.27.07 @ 7:15PM|#
"How many people reading this have ever been prevented from
doing or saying something by Muslims?"
Well, I would like to put a big sign in my front yard that says
"There is no lie but allah and mohummad is his apostate liar", but
I'm kinda concerned about getting killed over it. So put me in the
"yes" column.
Are you a sniveling, cowardly idiot or are you a disingenuous
prick?
Which one? Hurry up.
I'm sorry for the punch to the gut reaction.
Have a nice day!
|9.27.07 @ 7:25PM|#
200+ comments on a thread featuring leather clad fags with whips, and fisting, and you guys are still arguing over the religious implications.
Paul|9.27.07 @ 7:41PM|#
200+ comments on a thread featuring leather clad fags with
whips, and fisting, and you guys are still arguing over the
religious implications.
As culture goes, Warren, leather clad fags is as high as it gets.
Let us wallow.
iih|9.27.07 @ 7:49PM|#
J sub D:
And I was really not complaining either. I just meant "The Danish
cartoons were outright in-your-face offensive to
Muslims".
And here is my response to Loundry who shared a same concern as
yours:
Sure you have the right. But it may be smarter, more practical
and pragmatic to be considerate of others' sensibilities. As George
Bernard Shaw said: Liberty means responsibility. That is why most
men dread it. All I am saying is just lets be responsible (which
does NOT equate to giving up rights).
Mad Max|9.27.07 @ 9:27PM|#
"I just assumed that the thread would turn into another 103 post
orgy of 'huh huh huh christians and their stupid religion are so
stupid. They like totally hate gay people and they probably ARE
gay! huh huh huh.'
"But that didn't happen, so kudos to H&R commenters."
Agreed - there are way more than 103 posts by now.
QSL|9.27.07 @ 11:07PM|#
Hm, another little mockery/parody of Christianity that sparks a
few hushed protests and angry little letters-to-the-editor by a few
Christian groups paying attention, subsequently sparking another
mega-thread on H&R about how woefully intolerant evil
Christians are.
[Yawn]
If mobs of Christians worldwide start rioting and placing bounties
on the ad creator's heads, then wake me up. Until then, same 'ol
same 'ol.
|9.27.07 @ 11:32PM|#
Loundry,
Have you even come within 3 time zones of a Muslim country?
The Christmas period in Abu Dhabi features more overtly
Christian-inspired decorations in the malls (complete with Santa)
and hotels than you typically see in the US these days.
iih,
Alcohol is widely available in Abu Dhabi and (I think) all of the
northern emirates save Ajman, which is tiny. True, it's in hotel
bars, but if you are on a long-term work visa or some other
residence visa and are not Muslim, you can obtain a "liquor
license" to be used at real, live liquor stores.
Abu Dhabi duty-free is chock full of cheap booze, as well.
iih|9.28.07 @ 12:21AM|#
Timon19:
Judging by the time you've added a comment, should I take it that
you are there now?
In Cairo and other non-Gulf Arab states, you probably do not need a
"liquor license" -- certainly not Egypt, Lebanon, Tunisia, and a
few others.
How I often wish that individuals like Loundry would get a chance
to visit some of these countries and not just rely on 2 minutes
snippets of angry radical Muslims being fed 24/7 on the main stream
media.
Do you ever stop by Egypt? Sharm el-Shaikh may be? I miss that
place, and Alexandria. Haven't been there in a while.
But going back to the above ad, chances are such an ad would not be
placed anywhere in any of these countries. If it did, it will cause
an uproar (not the bit about Christianity, but the whole sexual
theme).
|9.28.07 @ 2:38AM|#
Not there now. I have this rather annoying habit of depriving
myself of sleep and then wondering why I'm tired.
And it's a good thing I'm not there now. Ramadan in UAE is no fun,
and no work gets done if they all feel like going home (even on a
military base), which is often. After Eid I'll be there.
I don't go to Egypt on the way or anything. If I did, the company
would probably strangle me. Usually pass through Amsterdam and sit
for hours in Schiphol. Occasionally, I go through Frankfurt or
Gatwick (SUCKS). It's all consecutive travel, so no opportunity to
take a side trip, really.
All I ever see of Sharm is what they show on Fashion TV in the
hotel. Looks fun.
|9.28.07 @ 9:41AM|#
Paul,
These gay men don't live in a Muslim country. The ad is a satire
intended for viewers in THIS country.
Mark,
Well, I would like to put a big sign in my front yard that says
"There is no lie but allah and mohummad is his apostate liar", but
I'm kinda concerned about getting killed over it. So put me in the
"yes" column.
So that's one for "I'm willing to lie to skew the poll." Rather an
ungracious way to admit defeat.
I think my point has been made.
|9.28.07 @ 8:03PM|#
this ad doesn't make any sense. what the hell does a leather
festival have to do with the last supper before crucifixion? Unless
crucifixion has become like a new bizarre fetish i've never heard
about.
You obviously didn't watch "Passion of the Christ."
Bob|9.29.07 @ 12:52AM|#
"So gays are pretty much not welcome by Jesus? Gays can't be
forgiven like every other sinner?"
Congratulations Lamar, you have won the 2007 award for "Most
irrelevant question to have totally missed the point entirely". You
have also won the award for "Most obvious attempt at faux outrage
during the act of moral preening and self-righteous back
slapping"
Bob|9.29.07 @ 12:58AM|#
"These gay men don't live in a Muslim country.
And thank God they don't because if they did, there would be a
dozen fatwas issued against them already. Actually, there might not
be, because no muslim country would ever allow this event to take
place to begin with. Islam forbids the blasphemous depiction of any
of its prophets, Jesus included. But when you are trying to claim
Christians in this country are as murderously intolerant as
fundamentalists in Muslim countries, you know where homosexuality
is punishable by death in some cases, it is not a good idea to let
facts stand in your way.
Sweating Through Fog|9.29.07 @ 10:53AM|#
The add is just gutless Christian-baiting. I'm struck by all the
fuss around this controversy, and it is clear to me that there are
many bigots on both sides of the issue. No difference.
But to see the real dynamic at work
1) Take a look at the silly Folsom Street Fair press release
here:
http://www.folsomstreetfair.com/fair-press.php?relNum=77
And 2) compare it with my parody:
September 25, 2008
FOLSOM STREET EVENTS™ LAUNCHES POSTER DESIGN FOR 25th ANNUAL FOLSOM
STREET FAIR™
Poster image draws inspiration from the annual Islamic Hajj, in a
poster entitled: Masjid al-Harem.
Folsom Street Events has released its latest poster design for the
25TH Annual Folsom Street Fair. This year, the official poster,
drawn by renowned artist Theo van Gogh, uses well-known community
members as players in a strikingly original interpretation of the
annual, worldwide pilgrimage to Mecca. The poster is the second in
a series that draws from well-known paintings, album covers, movie
posters, or other iconic images. Community members celebrate
exuberant sexuality by donning their S/M regalia, and dancing
around not the Kaaba, but a 10 story phallus.
According to Andy Copper, Board President, "We are extremely
pleased with the outcome of this poster, and we are looking forward
to a particularly inspirational event season. There is no intention
to be particularly pro-religion or anti-religion with this poster;
the image is intended only to celebrate the sacred roots of raw
sexuality. It is a distinctive representation of diversity with
women and men, people of all colors and sexual orientations. Just
as Mecca draws people of all races throughout the world, we hope
people from all continents will come come celebrate with us!"
Folsom Street Events acknowledges that many of the people in the
leather and fetish communities are spiritual and that this poster
image is a way of expressing that side of the community's interests
and beliefs. This year, Folsom Street Fair is dedicated to "San
Francisco Values," previously used against the San Francisco
community for its support of sexual diversity and now used by
Folsom Street Events as a way to reclaim power by the fetish
community.
Andy Copper, adds "We hope that people will enjoy the artistry for
what it is - nothing more or less. Many people choose to speculate
on deeper meanings. This is one artist's imagining of a pilgrimage
that is at one both sexual and sacred - all we did was adopt the
iconography of Mecca and make it our own. The irony is that
homosexuality has a long and wonderful history in Islam. In truth,
we are going to produce a series of inspired poster images over the
next few years. Next year's poster ad may take inspiration from
American Gothic by Grant Wood, the flag raising at Iwo Jima, or
even Raphael's 'The School of Athens' - community members are
already preparing for roles in that one!"
When asked about the murder of the poster artist, Theo van Gogh,
and the worldwide rioting that has claimed dozens of lives, Copper
said: "I guess it wouldn't be Folsom Street Fair without offending
some extreme members of the global community, though."
|10.1.07 @ 3:23PM|#
Oh - so the drag queen is Judas? Thanks, guys. Yes, you're all
SO butch with your leather & steroids.
I think it's quite hilarious that the press release refers to this
hackneyed bit of work as "innovative" and represents "all colors
and sexual orientations." But mostly pumped up leather gays.
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