Get Me To a Nunnery

Jesse Walker | September 27, 2007

beautifulnun Hold on. Does this mean all those nativist tracts were right after all? (*)

By poring over contemporary letters, diaries, and legal documents, historians have established that Venetian nunneries were the most liberated in Europe. In the 1400s, the skyrocketing cost of dowries meant that many of the city's noblest families were obliged to place their teenage daughters, regardless of their wishes, in convents. Few of these developed a spiritual calling. It was openly accepted that the top convents were a "safety valve" for Venice's surplus of well-born single women, who could go on to enjoy a level of sexual freedom unique for the time.

The nunneries were run like luxury boutique hotels. Novices were given duplicate keys so they could come and go as they pleased from their palatial apartments, which were filled with artwork and overlooked the Grand Canal. Wearing the most fashionable, low-cut dresses, they would entertain male visitors with wine-fuelled banquets, then invite their beaux to spend the night in their rooms. They took romantic gondola rides with admirers to private picnics on the islands of the Venice Lagoon, and went on poetic moonlit walks in the secluded gardens. The most passionate eloped -- presumably with men who were not obsessed with dowries. The mature-age abbesses rode the city in luxury carriages with their pet dogs and oversaw their girls' activities with a maternal eye. If a nun fell pregnant, she would simply give birth in the privacy of the convent and the pass the child off as an orphan abandoned on the doorstep.

Via Andrew Sullivan. On a related note, here's Chris Fujiwara on nunsploitation movies.

(* I am aware that it doesn't.)

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|9.27.07 @ 6:18PM|#

Q: What kind of meat does a priest eat on Friday?

A: Nun!

Wacka Wacka Wacka...

|9.27.07 @ 6:24PM|#

I had an Italian girl friend once.

So, the history of the Catholic church has been reduced to its fundamental essence: Nuns were all whores. That explains a few things.

|9.27.07 @ 6:27PM|#

I was raised Roman Catholic so I carry some of the pscholgical, sexual baggage that goes with that. So I've got to say, "Promiscuous nuns? Boy I was born in the wrong century!"

JBinMO|9.27.07 @ 6:30PM|#

Wait a minute, we all know that prior to the downfall of civilization that occured in the 60s no one ever had pre-marital sex.

|9.27.07 @ 6:32PM|#

"Promiscuous nuns? Boy I was born in the wrong century!"

No...slutty rich girls...try the tennis/golf club.

|9.27.07 @ 6:33PM|#

J sub D,

That's easily explained. See, the Reformation was about making nuns available to all of the people, not just priests. The Counter Reformation was about not doing that. The Thirty Years War and the English Civil War settled once and for all that if everyone can't have a nun, then no one can. Thus resulting in the deprivation to which you refer.

|9.27.07 @ 6:35PM|#

So far today, H&R has posted articles relaing to Catolics, Protestents, Hindus, and Buddhists. The "Homosexual Leatther Last Supper" thread has evolved into the old "how dangerous are the Muslims?/are you a bigot?" argument. The Jews, Wiccans, and Animists are probably getting ready to sue for discrimination because they haven't been insulted yet today.

Just an observation.

dhex|9.27.07 @ 6:38PM|#

fucking animists, with their fucking living spirits all over the fucking place.

|9.27.07 @ 6:39PM|#

The Thirty Years War and the English Civil War settled once and for all that if everyone can't have a nun, then no one can.

So this was like the socialist solution to nunsluttery? Nobody gets any. Now I understand European history! Thanks, ProLib!

Mad Max|9.27.07 @ 6:40PM|#

Do you mean to tell me that there was corruption in the fifteenth-century Church? Wow, what a scoop!

As a matter of fact, they held a Church Council to deal with this corruption and the Protestand movement which it encouraged. Ever heard of the Council of Trent? Those guys were fully aware of the corruption in the church, and took steps to deal with it, making the Church stronger and healthier (until discipline relaxed again, encouraged by those critics who denounced the Council of Trent as unspiritual and repressive).

|9.27.07 @ 6:40PM|#

Fucking Jews....they made my life better...i guess.

Note: they might not actually control the world and if so then i guess....FUCKING JEWS!

TLB|9.27.07 @ 6:42PM|#

I know this site is more like a kindergarten than anything else, but who really knows whether some of the worries (as sensationalized in the "tracts") were correct or not? Perhaps if there had been no worries expressed, then the current situation would be far different. And, current worries can't be directly compared to the past situation for various reasons.

I know this site has support for corporatism on its mind at all times, but perhaps it could express that in a less LogicallyFallacious way.

|9.27.07 @ 6:43PM|#

fucking animists, with their fucking living spirits all over the fucking place.

One down, two to go.

|9.27.07 @ 6:44PM|#

Fucking Jews....they made my life better...i guess.

Note: they might not actually control the world and if so then i guess....FUCKING JEWS!

Two down, one to go.

|9.27.07 @ 6:52PM|#

I've known some wiccans. Is it possible to know wiccans in "the biblical sense?" Eh, screw it. Those damn wiccans with their "whatever you put out, comes back 7 times" b.s.

Has anyone said "fucking wiccans" yet? I once tried to date a wiccan in college, but turned me down with a sneer. Fucking wiccans. Damned fucking wiccans.

thoreau|9.27.07 @ 6:55PM|#

LoneWacko-

YesWeAreJustLikekindergartnersbutthatdoESn'tmeanthat
antiCatholicBigotryisOK.

|9.27.07 @ 6:55PM|#

Nick M. | September 27, 2007, 6:52pm | #

I've known some wiccans. Is it possible to know wiccans in "the biblical sense?" Eh, screw it. Those damn wiccans with their "whatever you put out, comes back 7 times" b.s.
Whodat | September 27, 2007, 6:52pm | #

Has anyone said "fucking wiccans" yet? I once tried to date a wiccan in college, but turned me down with a sneer. Fucking wiccans. Damned fucking wiccans.

3 out of 3, And that's the hat trick, folks!

shecky|9.27.07 @ 6:56PM|#

So far today, H&R has posted articles relaing to Catolics, Protestents, Hindus, and Buddhists.

Yeah, do a post on Muslims, if you have the balls. Easy, cheap blasphemy impresses no one.

|9.27.07 @ 6:57PM|#

To all you easily offended theists out there, read this thread. See, It's nothing personal.

Quagmire|9.27.07 @ 7:08PM|#

Yes, Jesse, that's very hot and I'll deal with it in the morning

|9.27.07 @ 7:11PM|#

"Wearing the most fashionable, low-cut dresses..."

Is that when the girls at Catholic schools started wearing those plaid skirts?

|9.27.07 @ 7:23PM|#

My high school English teacher told us that in the famous Shakespeare line, "Get thee to a nunnery," did NOT refer to a religious retreat, but that a nunnery was old-English slang for a whorehouse.

For some reason that little factoid's stayed with me lo these many years ...

|9.27.07 @ 7:28PM|#

I googled around and yes, a nunnery is a brothel, not a convent. For example, http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=757761, but there were several other pages with the same information.

|9.27.07 @ 7:43PM|#

Having read the first few volumes of Casanova's autobiography, it seems to me that all of this had swung back rather drastically in the opposite direction by the mid-1700s. He still slept with nuns, but they didn't make it nearly so easy on him.

Jesse Walker|9.27.07 @ 7:54PM|#

Do you mean to tell me that there was corruption in the fifteenth-century Church? Wow, what a scoop!

No, I mean to tell you an interesting detail about that "corruption." (Which is not necessarily the best word for this particular phenomenon, but that's a side point. The main point is that I can't stand comments like this.)

TLB|9.27.07 @ 7:57PM|#

YesWeAreJustLikekindergartnersbutthatdoESn'tmeanthat
antiCatholicBigotryisOK.

Once again: such statements are LogicalFallacies.

Jesse Walker|9.27.07 @ 7:57PM|#

TLB: You got me dead to rights. I'm linking to a story about Renaissance history because I'm such an intense supporter of corporatism. (Rolls eyes.)

TLB|9.27.07 @ 8:00PM|#

This site has a habit of calling those who oppose IllegalImmigration nativists and worse, which has the impact (in our universe, not in Libertarian Universe #19) of encouraging corporatism, as crooked companies profit from IllegalActivity and then shove the costs off on the rest of us.

|9.27.07 @ 8:02PM|#

The Vestal Virgins were really virgins, and Julius Caesar once was one of the enforcers of that policy.
After Emperor Constantine and the unctuous takeover of the Christians, standards began to slip.

|9.27.07 @ 8:04PM|#

Wiccans: I've known a dozen or so, and once actually attended coven meetings. I was chased off by their religious objection to both meat and deodorant.

Muslims, animists, Presbyterians: My church is sponsoring a refugee family from Zimbabwe. (All perfectly legal by the way) Dad was Muslim, Mom animist. Thus, I taught the only Presbyterian Sunday School class in history in which my students were named Muhammed and Ibrahim. There were actually more kids in the class, by the way. I'm pretty sure this says absolutely nothing useful or relevant, but since we've been talking about Muslims, animists, and refugees from Zimbabwe, I thought I'd mention it.

Mad Max|9.27.07 @ 8:06PM|#

"The main point is that I can't stand comments like this.)"

Oh, dear, I'm so sorry that I posted something offensive (rolls eyes).

Jesse Walker|9.27.07 @ 8:09PM|#

"This site has a habit of calling those who oppose IllegalImmigration nativists and worse, which has the impact (in our universe, not in Libertarian Universe #19) of encouraging corporatism, as crooked companies profit from IllegalActivity and then shove the costs off on the rest of us."

Here in this universe, buddy boy, I'm referring to the actual historical nineteenth-century movement called "nativism." You know, the folks who sometimes accused convents of being hotbeds of secret sex. Which bears some connection to the topic of this post, which, despite your monomaniacal obsession with the subject, has nothing to do with immigration, illegal or otherwise.

Mad Max|9.27.07 @ 8:18PM|#

Look, just to show there's no hard feelings, here's a link to a *non*-Catholic practitioner of free love. She was an communist who just happened to be an atheist:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandra_Kollantai

|9.27.07 @ 8:25PM|#

|9.27.07 @ 8:37PM|#

Jesse,

The appropriate lead in is, "In a world. . . ."

Jennifer|9.27.07 @ 8:45PM|#

I never thought I'd sincerely say this, but: under the right circumstances, I could seriously see myself finding happiness as a nun. Sanctus espiritus la dolce vita, amen.

H&R|9.27.07 @ 8:48PM|#

Where are those Euro-porn latex Nuns........
with the candles ?

Guy Montag|9.27.07 @ 8:57PM|#

Is this what Ezra Klein means by we need more historians?

I really think he wants more hysterians, but that's just me.

|9.27.07 @ 8:58PM|#

The only thing that makes the history somewhat less amusing is that a lot of those "orphans" were actually killed at birth and buried somewhere under the convent. Excavations of convents in Europe often find such burial places. See also Manzoni's description the Monaca di Monza in The Betrothed.

At least they didn't abort them, which would be, you know, anti-life.

Edward|9.27.07 @ 9:00PM|#

By the way, descendents of some of the nuns--the babies they left at doorsteps--are recognizable today by the surname Innocente. It means "innocent," of course, and was a surname commonly given to orphans.

|9.27.07 @ 9:00PM|#

Here in this universe, buddy boy, I'm referring to the actual historical nineteenth-century movement called "nativism." You know, the folks who sometimes accused convents of being hotbeds of secret sex. Which bears some connection to the topic of this post, which, despite your monomaniacal obsession with the subject, has nothing to do with immigration, illegal or otherwise.

This made me think of a possible fun and challenging Reason H&R "Lone Wacko Game" where you try to come up with a comment that best (or worst, as it were) exposes how every post, by every Reason staffer, is secretly designed to advance the insidious "corpratist-IllegalImmigration" agenda.

Dirty Frank|9.27.07 @ 9:03PM|#

I never thought I'd sincerely say this, but: under the right circumstances, I could seriously see myself finding happiness as a nun.

If you decide to do that for Halloween, we want pictures ;)~

|9.27.07 @ 9:14PM|#

"Sanctus espiritus la dolce vita, amen"

Where is Smacky?

H&R|9.27.07 @ 9:29PM|#

Hey there is a Republican debate on the TV on PBS. Black issues, no top tier candidates.
Duncan Hunter is talking about preventing Black People from viewing pornography.

Ron Paul is there talking free markets and drug legalization.

Ron Paul: Wrong on the War...Right on Everything Else

Tavis Smiley is the host

Guy Montag|9.27.07 @ 10:08PM|#

Hey there is a Republican debate on the TV on PBS. Black issues, no top tier candidates.
Duncan Hunter is talking about preventing Black People from viewing pornography

I was premature saying in the Democrat Debate thread that David stopped schilling for Dems. reason ignoring the Republican debate and live blogging the Dem debate from last night is proof of that.

Ambassador Keys rocks!

Just switching over, seems Ron Paul needs some of Jessee and Radley's herbal therapy. Certainly nothing that Brian and Nick are on tonight.

BTW, did anybody notice that Nick is on a Nationwide commercial and shaved his sideburns?

http://www.nationwide.com/nw/about-us/our-ads/auto-ads/index.htm

I think Fred is winning.

thoreau|9.27.07 @ 10:27PM|#

WhydoesLONewaCkohatetherulesofthewrittenenglishlanguage?

TLB|9.27.07 @ 10:36PM|#

Here in this universe, buddy boy, I'm referring to the actual historical nineteenth-century movement called "nativism." You know, the folks who sometimes accused convents of being hotbeds of secret sex. Which bears some connection to the topic of this post, which, despite your monomaniacal obsession with the subject, has nothing to do with immigration, illegal or otherwise.

Sorry, doesn't wash. The posts at this site - whether from Walker or perhaps just from others - have a habit of a) calling names like "nativist" and b) weaving in anti-LouDobbs arguments in various creative ways or obsessing over LouDobbs and similar.

Given that history, when one uses "nativist" in the purely historical sense and isn't trying to imply the other uses of that word at this site, then perhaps that should be noted in bold print.

I note also that Google shows no less than 409 instances of "LouDobbs" at this site.

|9.27.07 @ 10:41PM|#

How could nuns be whoors and sluts? Everyone knows that Catholic girls don't put out. Right?...right?

What!?

|9.27.07 @ 10:54PM|#

The posts at this site - whether from Walker or perhaps just from others - have a habit of a) calling names like "nativist"

Uh, maybe that's because the position being described actually, you know, is nativist. It isn't really name-calling to use the term to correctly identify positions like yours.

SIV|9.27.07 @ 11:00PM|#

I can't blame Weigel for avoiding this debate.
No top tier candidates-although I'm primarily interested in the marginal guys. Why are Benito Giuliani, Fred Herring, Romney Jr, and Captain McCain afraid of Black People ?
This was a good debate Huckabee is frighteningly top tier good. Keyes is the best orator in American politics, and Ron Paul pushed drug legalization and libertarian market shit hard.

I want to see Keyes, Paul and Huckabee beat up on half the the top tier on baby-killing.

thoreau|9.28.07 @ 12:13AM|#

TheLoneWackoWrote:

I note also that Google shows no less than 409 instances of "LouDobbs" at this site.

ORLY?

Oh, maybe you meant "Lou Dobbs."

thoreau|9.28.07 @ 12:14AM|#

Sorry, let's try that comment again. Got the link wrong.

TheLoneWackoWrote:

Nativist|9.28.07 @ 12:32AM|#

ThosedarnillegalMexicansstolemyspacebar!

Anonymo the Anonymous|9.28.07 @ 12:41AM|#

Given that history, when one uses "nativist" in the purely historical sense and isn't trying to imply the other uses of that word at this site, then perhaps that should be noted in bold print.

Did the lengthy quoted passage dealing solely with historical matters not clue you in?

Jesse, did you lose a bet among the staff? Because you're consistently the only one to attempt to engage the trolls in a reasonable fashion.

Mad Max|9.28.07 @ 7:06AM|#

"On a related note, here's Chris Fujiwara on nunsploitation movies."

On the topic of "nunsploitation," here's another example, which I've posted here before:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ds4.png

It's a cartoon from the July, 1936 edition of Der Stürmer, a National Socialist periodical whose editor was hanged at Nuremberg. The cartoon compares nuns to prostitutes, in that both are "infertile" and "lost to the German race."

Mad Max|9.28.07 @ 7:37AM|#

(Yes, I know, Godwin, etc.)

ed|9.28.07 @ 7:59AM|#

If nuns are outlawed, only outlaws will have nuns.

|9.28.07 @ 8:41AM|#

I never thought I'd sincerely say this, but: under the right circumstances, I could seriously see myself finding happiness as a nun. Sanctus espiritus la dolce vita, amen.

jennifer, you trollip.

Episiarch|9.28.07 @ 8:53AM|#

I think I seriously, seriously missed out by not having any nearby source of whorish Catholic schoolgirls when I was a teenager.

Damn you, Jeebus!

T|9.28.07 @ 10:23AM|#

Mad Max,

I'm impressed by your ability to Godwin the thread by bringing in a Nazi cartoon about nuns and prostitutes. That's some mighty fine work, folks. No cheap out of just calling somebody Hitler for Max. Topical, original source docs! Bravo, Max, bravo. Very well played.

Incidentally, how did you even find that cartoon? When I do a GIS for nazi nun prostitute, I don't get anything remotely like that...

Mad Max|9.28.07 @ 1:36PM|#

T,

It's Godwin Week at Reason - I'm simply trying to get in on the excitement.

Recently added to the Web site:

"Hitler, Mussolini, Roosevelt
What FDR had in common with the other charismatic collectivists of the 30s,"

http://reason.com/news/show/122026.html

"Nanny State 911!Author David Harsanyi dishes on "Twinkie Fascists," [etc],

http://reason.com/news/show/122716.html

|9.28.07 @ 3:23PM|#

fishfry: I've heard that before, but I'm a little skeptical. His follow-up line, "Why wouldst thou be a breeder of sinners?" seems to imply that Ophelia ought to refrain from giving birth and therefore (in these days of primitive to non-existent birth control) from sexual activity. If she goes to a whorehouse, she can still get pregnant.

Jennifer|9.28.07 @ 5:29PM|#

try to come up with a comment that best (or worst, as it were) exposes how every post, by every Reason staffer, is secretly designed to advance the insidious "corpratist-IllegalImmigration" agenda.

Kerry Howley's posts about Myanmar are intended only to soften American hearts to the point where we all cry out, "Let them come here! Green cards be damned!" and then the Burmese undercut hardworking American barbers by agreeing to work for cutthroat Corporations who will pay them with daily bowls of rice in exchange for their Burma shaves.

|9.28.07 @ 6:27PM|#

Not CuttthroatCorporationists, Jennifer! Oh, no!

|9.29.07 @ 2:19AM|#

"...with daily bowls of rice in exchange for their Burma shaves."

Ah, Burma Shave!

|9.29.07 @ 9:33AM|#

Nuns are still whooping it up...

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9D07E7DA1631EF33A25754C2A9639C946095D6CF

|9.29.07 @ 10:04PM|#

and then the Burmese undercut hardworking American barbers by agreeing to work for cutthroat Corporations who will pay them with daily bowls of rice in exchange for their Burma shaves.

Hmm. I wonder if those Burma shaves will be done with cutthroat razors? ;-)

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