The Glories of Quasi-Capitalist Modernity, Dumpster Diving Division

Brian Doherty | September 12, 2007

It allows people to live simply, while others simply throw stuff away. The LA Times profiles the "freegan" movement of mostly middle-class, or formerly so, white progressive types who choose to eat largely from the dumpsters of D'Agostino's, Trader Joe's, and Whole Foods. Some excerpts:

[Madeline] Nelson, 51, once earned a six-figure income as director of communications at Barnes and Noble. Tired of representing a multimillion dollar company, she quit in 2005 and became a "freegan" -- the word combining "vegan" and "free" -- a growing subculture of people who have reduced their spending habits and live off consumer waste. Though many of its pioneers are vegans, people who neither eat nor use any animal-based products, the concept has caught on with Nelson and other meat-eaters who do not want to depend on businesses that they believe waste resources, harm the environment or allow unfair labor practices.
..................

She garnishes her salad with tangy weeds picked from neighbors' yards. She freezes bagels and soup from the trash to make them last longer. She sold her co-op and bought a one-bedroom apartment in Flatbush, Brooklyn, about an hour from Manhattan by bike. Her annual expenditures now total about $25,000.
...............
Freeganism was born out of environmental justice and anti-globalization movements dating to the 1980s. The concept was inspired in part by groups like "Food Not Bombs," an international organization that feeds the homeless with surplus food that's often donated by businesses.

Freegans are often college-educated people from middle-class families.

Adam Weissman, whose New York group Freegan.info has been around for about four years, lives with his father, a pediatrician, and mother, a teacher. The 29-year-old is unemployed by choice, taking care of his elderly grandparents daily and working odd jobs when he needs to. The rest of his time is spent furthering the freegan cause, he said, which is "about opting out of capitalism in any way that we can."

It's nice of capitalism to provide such an overflowing cornucopia that the Weissmans of the world can opt out. Wouldn't it be gracious of them to show some love to the system that manages to keep them alive and thriving without even trying?

Kevin Roderick at LA Observed notes the LAT was about three months behind the New York Times on using the same character to tell the same story.

Bonus: Here is a brilliant freegan parody from a '90s humor zine Nothing Doing by Gregg Turkington and Brendan Kearney, in which they describe breathlessly all the ways one could thrive FOR FREE!!! via various time-consuming machinations that would eat up 12 hours or more a day (including doing the rounds of every vending machine within miles looking for dropped nickles, and learning all your pals daily peregrinations so you could dragoon them into delivering your packages and parcels for you, when convenient). My favorite line: " **If you mow a lawn for the crazy old lady down the street, or get a paper route, you’ll receive money for your services…FREE!"

Help Reason celebrate its next 40 years. Donate Now!

Try Reason's award-winning print edition today! Your first issue is FREE if you are not completely satisfied.

|9.12.07 @ 2:29PM|#

She garnishes her salad with tangy weeds picked from neighbors' yards. She freezes bagels and soup from the trash to make them last longer. She sold her co-op and bought a one-bedroom apartment in Flatbush, Brooklyn, about an hour from Manhattan by bike. Her annual expenditures now total about $25,000.

so she's really just a dirty fucking hippy

and she still manages to spend more than minimum sustanance levels.

|9.12.07 @ 2:32PM|#

She ought to move to "Garbage City" in the Philippines. That way she'd be even more ultra-righteous.

The Extispicator|9.12.07 @ 2:33PM|#

Who'd have thought that eating trash could qualify as a noble socio-political statement? George Costanza has these guys beat by at least five years, though (sans all of the smug hype).

|9.12.07 @ 2:36PM|#

I wonder if she'd be offended if someone gave her a muffin stem.

|9.12.07 @ 2:38PM|#

Spends no more than $25,000 per year?! I have friends who make less than that _before_ taxes and live okay (although admittedly not in NYC).

|9.12.07 @ 2:39PM|#

So now not only do I have to run the raccoons and neighborhood dogs out of my trash, I have to run the hippies out to? WTF is the world coming to?

Sal Paradise|9.12.07 @ 2:40PM|#

$25,000 buys a lot of patchouli oil.

|9.12.07 @ 2:42PM|#

I can't believe this is hygienic ?! How do these folks keep from falling sick and dying ?

also, like a animal that grew up in the zoo, she is completely incapable of surviving on her own.

My vote goes to nervous breakdown

|9.12.07 @ 2:43PM|#

Here's a good human giant sketch on this concept.

Sketch 1
Sketch 2

So they only eat garbage from premium food resellers? Fucking elitists. Probably running on the hobos who actually needed the stuff too.

Call me when you're rocking the Waffle House dumpster, then I'll stop laughing.

SxCx|9.12.07 @ 2:43PM|#

Wow, a hap tip to Mr. Doherty for unearthing Gregg Turkington's earlier work. I've been looking all over for this shit.

|9.12.07 @ 2:44PM|#

It takes all kinds.

|9.12.07 @ 2:47PM|#

Of course I am sure this woman is appaled by the fact that there are people in places like Manilla who are so poor they have to live on garbage, squating in shacks made of dicarded materials. But someone living that way is just fine as long as you are college educated and in America.

Elite food boutique owner|9.12.07 @ 2:49PM|#

I can't believe this is hygienic ?! How do these folks keep from falling sick and dying ?

So if I put poison in my trash to discourage racoons, cats, mice, etc., will one of these freegans sue me?

|9.12.07 @ 2:53PM|#

It's nice of capitalism to provide such an overflowing cornucopia that the Weissmans of the world can opt out.

Now that is some nice spin. Doherty earns his Reason Foundation paycheck today.

The Artist Formerly Know as Tr|9.12.07 @ 2:53PM|#

I don't know what to say. These people actually human cockroaches. Very very gross.

Episiarch|9.12.07 @ 2:56PM|#

If you mow a lawn for the crazy old lady down the street, or get a paper route, you'll receive money for your services…FREE!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

TANSTAAFL. I think that's all that need be said.

dhex|9.12.07 @ 2:58PM|#

isn't this basically a good thing? i mean sure it's a bit weird as a social marker but they're not actually harming anyone.

|9.12.07 @ 3:01PM|#

isn't this basically a good thing? i mean sure it's a bit weird as a social marker but they're not actually harming anyone.

Not to mention that they're helping to keep food prices lower for the rest of us by reducing demand.

The only question now is whether the IRS will see this article and decide to tax the found food as income.

|9.12.07 @ 3:09PM|#

I can't believe this is hygienic ?! How do these folks keep from falling sick and dying ?

I heard some guy in a NPR interview say that the main items most of these folks scavenge are prepackaged meals prepared that day and thrown out after lunch or dinner rush.

Episiarch|9.12.07 @ 3:18PM|#

i mean sure it's a bit weird as a social marker but they're not actually harming anyone.

Well, from the perspective of the person whose dumpster is being dived, it could be an issue. Just wait until one of these people decides, after getting sick from food that they ate straight out of the garbage, to sue the person who threw it out.

Other than that, they are harming no one (other than their own credibility).

|9.12.07 @ 3:20PM|#

I seriously thought Chuck Palahniuk was screwing around when he wrote about this phenomenon.

Am I alone in thinking these "freegan" people are nitwits?

|9.12.07 @ 3:25PM|#

It is also a quality of life issue. I am sorry, I don't want people digging through my garbage or having to watch them do it the next time I go to the grocery store. If large numbers of people followed these people's lead, the prepackaged free range chicken from Whole Foods would run out pretty quickly and they would be in your back yard eating stale Pizza.

More importantly, I don't think being a spunge and a bum is an acceptable way to live. You certainly don't owe the world your soul and there is more to life than money. But, you do owe yourself and the world the effort it takes to support yourself. Who cares if you dig ditches part time or sell yourself for sex or whatever, as long as you pay your own bills and support yourself to whatever lifestyle you want. Refusing to work and eating garbage is not an alternative. Lazy, dirty God damned hippies.

dhex|9.12.07 @ 3:26PM|#

Just wait until one of these people decides, after getting sick from food that they ate straight out of the garbage, to sue the person who threw it out.

they could try, sure. weirder things have happened.

i'm not totally hot on being a layabout either, but so long as i'm not related to them, everything's clever. they're cleaning shit up to some degree, and they're far more conscientious than the folks who normally go rummaging through the trash (to recycle bottles and cans).

dhex|9.12.07 @ 3:28PM|#

Refusing to work and eating garbage is not an alternative.

serious answer: well, apparently it is.

unserious answer: tell that to middle america!

libertarian bar night answer: tell that to the french!

Episiarch|9.12.07 @ 3:32PM|#

they could try, sure. weirder things have happened.

Things is, even if they try but fail, it costs the defendant money (especially considering how you would recover costs from a "freegan"). The instant somebody tries this the freegan lifestyle is dead because anybody with anything to lose will lock up their garbage to avoid being sued. Which still costs people money.

I guess what I'm saying is that since the garbage is still the property of the thrower-outer until taken possession of by the garbage company, the freegans are trespassing and could sue at best and are thieves at worst.

I am definitely the type to say "ah, who cares, they're not hurting anybody," but I honestly wouldn't want them in my garbage just out of fear of being sued (and if they made a mess).

|9.12.07 @ 3:35PM|#

"Adam Weissman, whose New York group Freegan.info has been around for about four years, lives with his father, a pediatrician, and mother, a teacher. The 29-year-old is unemployed by choice, taking care of his elderly grandparents daily..."

Do a pediatrician and a teacher really need daycare?

Timothy|9.12.07 @ 3:37PM|#

In principle, I agree with you dhex, but that wouldn't stop me from bleaching the shit out of my trash if I owned a food seller or restaurant. Firstly, I just really fucking hate hippies. Secondly, self-righteous socialists digging through your refuse and stinking the place up is bad for business unless you run a hipster bar in Oregon.

|9.12.07 @ 3:48PM|#

K.|9.12.07 @ 3:53PM|#

isn't this basically a good thing? i mean sure it's a bit weird as a social marker but they're not actually harming anyone.

I agree. I've seen figures of about 50% for the number of food produced that ends up in landfills. I'd rather that someone ate some of that, and as you said, it's not harming anyone.

Good for them if it makes them happy.

|9.12.07 @ 3:59PM|#

At least they're not living out some dopey Dan'l Boone fantasy on Forest Service land.

uncle sam|9.12.07 @ 4:03PM|#

Sca ven gers

|9.12.07 @ 4:05PM|#

B.P.

The pediatrician and a teacher are Weissman's parents. Presumably the "elderly grandparents" are either the pediatrician's or the teacher's parents.

The thing that stands out among these people is that most of those in the stories appear to have something to fall back on.

I mean "[Madeline] Nelson, 51, once earned a six-figure income". Surely there is somrthing of that around.

And even if there isn't, "She sold her co-op" (hmm, at NY real estate prices?) "and bought a one-bedroom apartment in Flatbush" (so presumably no rent, since it's unlikely she got a mortgage if she put down "dumpster-diving" as her occupation on the app). I'm sort of wondering what she finds to spend $25,000 on.

The fact of the matter is that for people who live this way without the falback of savings or parental support life is nowhere near as glamorous.

The Chad|9.12.07 @ 4:09PM|#

I sit in an office calling people who might buy software, and for my services my company gives me money... FOR FREE!!

While this does seem wrong, having worked in a restaurant I know how wasteful they are. So many perfectly good meals get thrown out because of appearance or minor overcooking or whathaveyou. It seems like it wouldn't take too much effort to store the 'waste' food other than the trash and dispose of it by donating it to 3rd world or foodbanks or whatever.
Not to freegans though, they're just leeching off the success of capitalism, per usual.

|9.12.07 @ 4:16PM|#

Refusing to work and eating garbage is not an alternative.

Sure it is. I'm of the mind that once you throw something out, it's up for grabs. If these people want it, fine by me. Heck, I dumpster dived a fully functional laser printer once. Food is no different (Just a lot more disgusting). I might change my mind the second that one of these people sue someone though.

I once saw a news story about freegans, and one was asked why they do this, and the guy went on a 10 minute diatribe against the evil corporations and profit, etc. The place he was diving was a small mom-and-pop restaurant. It brought a smile to my face.

|9.12.07 @ 4:20PM|#

"Buzzards gotta eat. Same as worms."

MattXIV|9.12.07 @ 4:30PM|#

Dan T.,

But what about those precious lost tax revenues? Passing up an upper middle class income to be a bum means taking tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of dollars out of the gov't's pocket, money which goes to vital services that are the only thing separating us from living conditions similar to those in Somalia. Aren't these people, who chose not to make the proceeds of their labor available to the gov't for their own ends no better than tax evaders?

|9.12.07 @ 4:38PM|#

"How do these folks keep from falling sick and dying?"

I doubt they DO keep from falling sick. They don't die because they can go to hospital and get free health care. And you and I get to pay for it.

CB

|9.12.07 @ 4:48PM|#

I'm not sure anyone in my family has ever spent $25,000 in a year (not counting purchase of cars and homes), and amazingly without eating garbage or living in a slum. Is New York really that bad?

SIV|9.12.07 @ 4:50PM|#

I can't believe this is hygienic ?! How do these folks keep from falling sick and dying ?

You don't want to know how food is handled before it gets to the stores and restaurants.

Fruits and vegetables have skins that can be washed and/or peeled.

There was an excellent book on "libertarian" dumpster diving published by Loompanics back in the 90s.I don't recall the title or author.

Episiarch|9.12.07 @ 4:56PM|#

I'm not sure anyone in my family has ever spent $25,000 in a year (not counting purchase of cars and homes), and amazingly without eating garbage or living in a slum. Is New York really that bad?

Where are you from? Yes, it is that expensive, but much of it is rent. To live on $25,000/year in Manhattan would be...interesting. I lived (well) on $140,000/year in Manhattan, but at that rate I probably could have lived like a king elsewhere.

In Brooklyn, $25,000/year is plausible, depending on where and how.

|9.12.07 @ 5:00PM|#

Hey, if eating garbage makes them all feel morally superior and happy, more power to them.

As long as these hippies stay out of drum circles. If they don't and we hear of an impending hippie music festival, then it's open season.

|9.12.07 @ 5:09PM|#

Episiarch

It says she bought her apt in Flatbush. As I pointed out I can't see her getting a mortgage.

Since she "freezes bagels and soup" she obviously has an electric bill.

I guess I'm going by the fact that I spend less than 25 grand a year on living expenses. and that includes paying a mortgage. Of course I'm nor in NY either.

|9.12.07 @ 5:10PM|#

I hunt. Some people find this practice barbaric, killing some poor animal and butchering it for its (rather tasty) flesh. To the extent the freegans aren't bothering anyone, trespassing or violating any laws, who cares? My best hope is that people leave me alone to engage in the activities I enjoy and I extend to them the same respect.

Frankly, I have done "poverty" as a student and a soldier and did not find it terribly liberating. I find having plenty of money much more liberating.

|9.12.07 @ 5:13PM|#

.... without even trying?

Digging around in the trash is effortless?

Two words for you: imperious ass.

Episiarch|9.12.07 @ 5:15PM|#

No mortgage? OK, if so, then she has property tax (fucking brutal--could be $10,000+/year alone--mine was), condo/co-op fees (she may not belong to one, but if she does, they are thousands), electric bill (say $1500/year), heat and hot water (again say $1500/year), phone (nobody says freegans are consistent), internet maybe, TV (cable?), you know.

Plus all the things that a probable hypocrite like this needs from the capitalist world to enjoy themselves, like DVDs of Supersize Me, books from Amazon from Naomi Klein, etc.

I can see $25,000 if she buys stuff, or if the upkeep on the place costs a lot.

Episiarch|9.12.07 @ 5:17PM|#

Oh, and I forgot to add the obligatory reference to slavery to the state--as a property owner, she must "pay rent" in the form of property tax to the government every year or she loses her place. No one who owns property can live like this indefinitely.

|9.12.07 @ 5:28PM|#

cool, I was unaware that Gregg Turkington was Neil Hamburger.

All this talk of getting sick is moot.

The VAST majority of all food tossed by a grocery store or restaurant is ready to eat.
* In a grocery store, "Sell by" is about 10 days prior to food going bad. The FDA has made certain of this. Otherwise your food supply wouldn't be as safe.
* Bruised fruit is still good too. It's just not saleable.
* Imperfect veggies? Edible too. Just not saleable.

It's a phenomenally wasteful process that displays the ignorance and intolerance the wealthy and powerful have for the poor/working class in the U.S.

Except the intolerance doesn't apply to your housekeeper, car washer, grocery store clerk, military personnel, and gardener. They are okay. It's the rest of them that should be put in jail or deported.

|9.12.07 @ 6:03PM|#

Aren't you the guy who ranted at length about the awfulness of "nerdcore"? I can't think of anything much much harmless than that.

I don't see "freegans" as bad, myself. Certainly risible and contemptible. Maybe insulting to vegans who aren't pompous asses. I suppose they could possibly crowd out food sources for homeless people, but I'd have to have a better idea of how many of these twits there are and how much trashed food is available in cities they're in.

Much more harmless, rather.

|9.12.07 @ 6:28PM|#

I agree. I've seen figures of about 50% for the number of food produced that ends up in landfills. I'd rather that someone ate some of that, and as you said, it's not harming anyone.

But the food going to landfills is essentially a carbon sink. Freegans contribute to global warming!

|9.12.07 @ 6:54PM|#

Perfect rational conclusion to draw from the far leftist mentality. Eat garbage, you deserve no better.

|9.12.07 @ 7:29PM|#

Actually, this form of recycling (but not of food) used to be pretty common in Japan. There's always one day of the week that has been classified as "dai-gomi-no-hi" (big garbage day) where you put your old furniture, bookcases, old appliances, etc. out on the curb. I lived in quite a few places where it was considered standard custom to run around and see what everyone else was throwing out to see if you could use it. A sort of informal furniture/appliance/whatever swap. I got a microwave oven that way.

|9.12.07 @ 7:40PM|#

It's threads and posts like this that really put to bed the cherished notion that libertarians just love liberty, not some particular system.

|9.12.07 @ 8:07PM|#

joe-

When someone strews trash all over your alley where you keep your garbage can, its not liberty its trespassing.

|9.12.07 @ 8:19PM|#

I guess what I'm saying is that since the garbage is still the property of the thrower-outer until taken possession of by the garbage company, the freegans are trespassing and could sue at best and are thieves at worst.

Episiarch -- as I understand it, once you put something in a trash can and then put it on the public property by the curb, you've abandoned it and it becomes available to anyone who wants it. Either that, or the people who do legal research for shows like Law and Order get it wrong every single time, because I've seen this plot point explained numerous times.

|9.12.07 @ 8:24PM|#

I've put old couches and whatnot out by the curb for the bulky item pickup day, and generally anything of even the slightest value disappears long before the trash collector comes around.

joe, you can love liberty and not particulary care for your fellow human beings, at least not the dirty or stinky ones. Freedom isn't the same thing as tolerance -- in fact, often the ones most parading their "tolerance" and "open-mindedness" are the most authoritarian in the policies they advocate. Didn't read all the comments yet -- did someone here propose passing a law banning freegans or something?

|9.12.07 @ 8:25PM|#

Cesar,

If the complaints were limited to litter, that would be one thing.

But they're not - look at all the venom at the dirty hippies who criticize capitalism.

They don't use force, they don't use government, they don't want higher taxes, they peacefully go about the business of tending to their own business...and ideological libertarians can't stand them.

You know why? Because ideological libertarians have a set of values, one that goes beyond small goverment and the non-initiation of force. Criticizing capitalism and limiting your consumerism and economic footprint offend those values.

Which is fine - but it would be nice to see libertarians be more forthright about what their value system actually is.

|9.12.07 @ 8:30PM|#

|9.12.07 @ 8:37PM|#

More importantly, I don't think being a spunge and a bum is an acceptable way to live. You certainly don't owe the world your soul and there is more to life than money. But, you do owe yourself and the world the effort it takes to support yourself. Who cares if you dig ditches part time or sell yourself for sex or whatever, as long as you pay your own bills and support yourself to whatever lifestyle you want. Refusing to work and eating garbage is not an alternative. Lazy, dirty God damned hippies.

Beg to disagree, john. You don't owe the world a damn thing. That's how socialists think. Don't much care to live like a freegan, but so long as they aren't suing anyone or collecting welfare or otherwise imposing costs on others, isn't this scavenging a form of gainful, albeit unpaid, employment?

Libertarianism is minding your own business. Socialism is saying you have to do your share for society, and we'll compel you to do so.

|9.12.07 @ 8:40PM|#

joe-

The only problem I have is with litter and panhandling. If they want to eat garbage and leave me alone, they can go for it.

I just find it funny that the system they criticize so much produces enough wealth for them to live off of other peoples waste! No capitalism, no "freegans".

|9.12.07 @ 8:44PM|#

I also find the hostility to these folks a bit odd. I'm small "l" libertarian and I don't give a toss what these freegans get up to in the dumpsters. Actually, I lived this kind of life for a while when I first moved to London. I was poor as hell, earning only 100 pounds/week (yes, I was working) and couldn't afford a flat or even a room. I moved in with some Spanish gypsies in a squat in Brixton and we ate communal dinners made with food they scavenged from grocery store dumpsters every day. It's not a lifestyle choice I'd like to make long term, but it wasn't so bad really. Some of those Spanish girls were pretty hot...

One difference is that I did this out of necessity, not to make some silly point about capitalism. Buy hey, they're welcome to it.

|9.12.07 @ 8:49PM|#

Well, Caesar, your one of the good ones. ;-)

In all seriousness, though, this is one of those situations - like criticisms of sprawl-inducing zoning - where libertarians have a knee-jerk reaction that runs counter to their stated ideology, and it takes some pushing before you can get them to take the forthrightly libertarian position.

|9.12.07 @ 8:52PM|#

Joe--Honestly, what are you talking about? It's a filthy revelation that in addition to loving freedom, libertarians also love wealth, abundance, and a richer life for all (and for various reasons that you probably don't agree with, consider free markets linked convincingly with that world of wealth, abundance, etc.) All I said in my post was, its a glorious world that is so rich people can live off its trash, and that its ungracious of those who do so to hate the system that allows them to live off trash....what disgusting secret of libertarianism have I given away here, exactly?

|9.12.07 @ 8:56PM|#

prolefeed, for example - a great demonstration of the seld-delusion I'm talking about.

First, the assumption that we're talking about filthy, stinking people. Of course they are - why, they're dirty hippies! In fact, as the articles make clear, these are not bums wallowing rotting produce to try to find one that's not too bad, but people recovering high-quality goods.

You don't despise these people just for aesthetic reasons, prolefeed. You despise them for ideological reasons as well, even though they don't do a single thing to violate the precepts you claim define your ideology.

Second, the effort to hide behind "no one has proposed a law." Since no one has proposed a law, that means no hositility has been expressed? The libertarian distinction between personal preference and support for government force actually makes my point. The fact that libertarians haven't called for a law does not mean, in any sense, that don't object to the behavior in question.

joe -- you're responding to the prolefeed in your head, not the actual POV I was expressing. First, I was referring to other people's comments on this thread about "dirty, stinking, hippies" -- some of it ironic and tongue-in-cheek, no doubt.

Second, where did I say I despise these folks? Try taking a peek at my 8:37 post (granted, posted after you went off on me at 8:30). I don't agree with their take on capitalism, but I don't despise them for holding a different POV from me. Now, if their ideology causes them to start advocating for laws that harm me, or businesses in general, then I'd start taking umbrage.

Third, aren't you being a bit hostile toward the other people here who are being hostile? A wee bit irony-deficient today?

If someone wants to be intolerant and hostile and yet not use the force of law to impose those feelings on others, that's their business. I accept and embrace their liberty to feel that way, because I'm a libertarian, just as I accept and embrace the liberty of freegans to scavenge stuff so long as they leave others alone to live their lives as they please.

Perhaps I missed your point -- are you proposing to use the law to punish people who engage in a PC version of "crimethink", of not pretending to be sympathetic enough to satisfy their illiberal liberal overlords? Have you read 1984 and seen where that leads to? If not, what is your point?

x,y|9.12.07 @ 9:00PM|#

Trespassing is a libertarian issue. I'm not sure that it's implicated with the freegans, but it's possible and even likely.

And Dan T. wins the thread for his IRS barb.

|9.12.07 @ 9:15PM|#

It's not a revelation to me, Brian. But it is a bit of an awkward fit for those who wish to claim that they're only motivated by a love of freedom and an opposition to government.

prolefeed,

I'd say you took plenty of umbrage when you wrote joe, you can love liberty and not particulary care for your fellow human beings, at least not the dirty or stinky ones. Freedom isn't the same thing as tolerance right there, in the thread. And no, it wasn't ironic. You were singling them out as a group of people you don't care for.

You only tolerate that which you object to, and you have no reason to object to these people, according to your own ideology.

Third, aren't you being a bit hostile toward the other people here who are being hostile? Yup. I freely admit that my political ideology includes a vision of what is and is not good behavior, or good ideas, wholly apart from the question of government policy. So, no, there isn't any irony here.

And no, I am not proposing any laws. I'm just objecting to an idea I don't like.

|9.12.07 @ 9:34PM|#

Joe---Why do you think libertarians love liberty and hate government? Completely for the hell of it? Because it, in our opinion, creates a world that is poorer, more crabbed, less wealthy and option-filled than one with less freedom and more government, and that's just the kind of hateful bastards we are? I'm sorry libertarians around here are disappointing you for not having an ideology that is utterly independent of the world they think will arise from that ideology.

|9.12.07 @ 9:42PM|#

I apologize, joe, for having the gall to say that people who sift through garbage for food are kind of silly. And gross.

|9.12.07 @ 9:45PM|#

People doing so in the context of this so-called "Freegan" movement, that is.

|9.12.07 @ 9:55PM|#

Wow, I'm slow tonight. Reading Brian Doherty's posts, I see that he's pointing out that it's a bit ridiculous of these "Freegan" folks to badmouth the society that's so rich they can live off of its refuse. I agree with him.

The "damn dirty hippies!" comments might not have been as seriously meant as someone made them out to be, I think.

|9.12.07 @ 10:41PM|#

I'd say you took plenty of umbrage when you wrote "joe, you can love liberty and not particulary care for your fellow human beings, at least not the dirty or stinky ones. Freedom isn't the same thing as tolerance" right there, in the thread. And no, it wasn't ironic. You were singling them out as a group of people you don't care for.

joe, I was referring to other people's comments with that comment. I was not expressing my own personal opinion with that statement. I don't believe that opinion held by other people. At all. Because I used to be kind of a hippie myself. I'm not sure how much more plainly I can put it than that.

You only tolerate that which you object to, and you have no reason to object to these people, according to your own ideology.

You can tolerate something that you are indifferent to, or don't care deeply one way or another about, or that you choose to ignore and pay no attention to. And my ideology is to maximize freedom. That ideology certainly doesn't say I can't object to someone else's behavior -- I can and did object strongly to my father drinking and smoking himself into an early grave -- but I left him alone and tolerated that self-destructive behavior because I valued his freedom more. Doesn't mean I don't miss him greatly, but even knowing what was going to happen I wouldn't change my respect for his freedom to choose if I could go back twenty years. I'd try to talk him out of it if he was willing to listen to me, but drop it if he said he didn't want to discuss it.

SIV|9.12.07 @ 10:48PM|#

zoning - where libertarians have a knee-jerk reaction that runs counter to their stated ideology

No Zoning!

The City can plan itself.

|9.12.07 @ 11:01PM|#

"Frankly, I have done "poverty" as a student and a soldier and did not find it terribly liberating."

As a student and a Army reservist I spent about 4 months in total poverty (by US standards). Lived in my car and showered at the college's gym. I was able to get the majority of my food from leftover MRE's from the once a month weekend drills and free church pickniks. Poverty is OK when you know that you have a backup, no family to feed, and your young. That year I would have been counted as "poor" and "uninsured" by the goverment. The fact is that I chose to be poor, and it alowed me to make six figures 2 years later.

Eric Cartman|9.12.07 @ 11:30PM|#

I know hippies. I've hated them all my life. I've kept this town free of hippies on my own since I was five and a half. But I can't contain them on my own anymore. We have to do something, fast! They're everywhere. They wanna save the earth, but all they do is smoke pot and smell bad.

South Park episode 901|9.12.07 @ 11:47PM|#

So now not only do I have to run the raccoons and neighborhood dogs out of my trash, I have to run the hippies out to? WTF is the world coming to?

Cartman: Hello, ma'am. I'm working to clean up the neighborhood from parasites. Do you mind if I take a quick look around your house? I'm afraid you may have hippies.

Elderly Woman: Hippies?

Cartman: Yeah, they've been poppin' up all over the neighborhood lately. Ms. Nelson next door had seven hippies in her basement; they usually live in colonies. Could I take a look in your attic? . . . Oh yeah, boy. Take a look at this, ma'am.

Elderly Woman: Oh my.

Cartman: These are what we call the uh giggling stoners. Pretty common form of hippie, usually found in the attics. Problem is, if you see one hippie, there's probably a whole lot more you're not seein'. Uh, whe-where's the backyard.

Cartman: Yep, that's what I thought. See that? You've got a drum circle in your backyard.

Elderly Woman: Oh, well they showed up a few days ago, but I didn't think they were hurting anything.

Cartman: Yeah. You know, I had a guy in Jackson county. He had a little drum circle in his backyard. It turned into a drum circle four miles in diameter. You get a few hippies playing drums and next thing you know, you got yourself a colony.

Elderly Woman: Oh dear. Oh, well, so, so what do I do?

Cartman: Ma'am, I need to clear out your giggling stoners and your drum-cricle hippies RIGHT NOW, or soon they're gonna attract something much worse!

Elderly Woman: Ooooo.what's that?

Cartman: The college know-it-all hippies [and the freegans]!

thoreau|9.13.07 @ 12:10AM|#

To me, these people are just an extreme form of bargain hunter. Most bargain hunters might not be ideological, but they always act as though I'm really silly for valuing convenience and timing over hunting and waiting for the lowest possible price. These people simply take it to the next level: They insist on a bargain of ZERO price, and they think I'm not merely silly but ideologically incorrect.

The best approach is to nod politely while they brag about the bargain that they found, and then change the subject.

dhex|9.13.07 @ 12:12AM|#

Aren't you the guy who ranted at length about the awfulness of "nerdcore"? I can't think of anything much much harmless than that.

not only did i rant about it, i called it racist! and it certainly harms ears...and souls...fucking white people.

no but seriously there's some actual good being done here in the form of wasting just a wee bit less, even if the people involved come across like jerkoffs. there are even some food not bombs crews who aren't just righteous clownshoes. while joe is being his usual self and all, there's plenty of other folks who are being their usual selves.

wirkman|9.13.07 @ 12:28AM|#

Read the classic essay by William Graham Sumner, "Who Is Free?"

Sumner, the great classical liberal, finally decides that it is the tramp.

thoreau|9.13.07 @ 1:06AM|#

|9.13.07 @ 1:55AM|#

Because ideological libertarians have a set of values, one that goes beyond small goverment and the non-initiation of force. Criticizing capitalism and limiting your consumerism and economic footprint offend those values.

Neat! What other shit are you just going to make up today, joe?

You know, good ol' Nickelback isn't physically harming anybody with their music, and you can simply ignore them or turn it off when it comes on, but that doesn't stop me from ragging the hell out of them because I think they suck.

Same with 'freegans'. Except their hypocrisy makes it oh-so-more-the-delicious. Freegans bitching about capitalism would be like vultures bitching about death.

Libertarianism is a political philosophy, joe, not socio-identity politics. Just because I think society should be allowed to use drugs does not mean that I suddenly have to be tolerant of drug abusers or let my kids use them.

|9.13.07 @ 9:18AM|#

Freegans bitching about capitalism would be like vultures bitching about death.

This is a truly great line.

thoreau|9.13.07 @ 9:55AM|#

Ayn Randian-

It's sad that you'd waste your time devoting any thought to Nickelback. How the hell did we wind up like this?

|9.13.07 @ 10:40AM|#

Freeganism, it's tresspassing if they get in my garbage. It's MINE dammit!

At work, a Starbucks opened up a few years ago, which tosses various pastries at the the end of the day. Just after that, the freegans show up, take the bags of pastries intot the cardboard recycling section and sort through the 'good' pastries, and leave the rest opened and spilled amongst the cardboard. Rats (the real ones) are everywhere now and huge!

All right it's not 'Tresspassing' if its from the public street bins...city property and all.

yuck.

|9.13.07 @ 1:13PM|#

no but seriously there's some actual good being done here in the form of wasting just a wee bit less, even if the people involved come across like jerkoffs.

Thriftiness is wise and virtuous and all that, but what good are they doing?

From an environmental standpoint, they're far too few to have reduced consumer demand enough to actually reduce use of resources one iota. In fact, if there were enough freegans to be more than an occasional fluff story, businesses would either find ways to make them pay or else produce less and thus provide less waste. Either way, some freegans would have to get jobs, and consumption would bounce back upward.

From an economic standpoint, they're just freeloading off of the work of everyone who actually produced the food and other items they scavenge. Their central goal amounts to to actively avoid engaging in exchanges that could benefit other people. There's nothing wrong with that, but it isn't "good" for anyone but the freegans.

The reaction against wasted food that gets the freegans some vague sympathy is the same sort of thing as the reaction against self-righteous freeloaders. Nobody's being hurt in either case (nobody's starving because grocery stores have to throw away perfectly edible food - in fact, that feeds homeless people); it's just values people have. If you've moved out from your parents' place and work for a living, you're going to tend to take umbrage at someone who scrounges through garbage and tries to claim moral superiority to you because he doesn't have a job.

The funny thing is, if these people were unpretentious about it and said "I just don't want to work a job, I just want to scrounge for things I need, and I like living this way," I'd be perfectly cool with that. I'd be just a bit wary if one offered me dinner, but hey. Of course, the key thing there is that this wouldn't even be a story if that were the case. Without the ideological posturing, what would there be to write about for the reporter or to link to here?

|9.13.07 @ 1:15PM|#

Brian entered this thread to dispute Joe's charge that Reasonoids are hypocrites for evincing distaste for the freegans. Brian said it was not so much for the freegan's choice to eat from dumpsters, unappetizing as that seems, but on economic grounds. Of course anyone who rants against capitalism gets a ~~hostile reception~~ beatdown in this forum. Joe had a good point though. The people who railed against the 'damn hippies' sounded intolerant. Joe forced the posters to refine their position, being a good gadfly without crossing over into trollsville.

Anyway, most human societies (is burning man over yet?) enforce extralegal standards, behavioral norms, primarily by expressions of social disapproval. Do we have to stop being snobs to be libertarians?

Thoreau crystallizes Brian's point. Homo economicus knows that time, effort and money are all fungible. Except the time with my kids but that's ... for the children. [sobs]

There's a tension in this thread between the anti-socialist idea that you can screw off because your life's labor is NOT owed to the collective, and the individualistic notion that you have some obligation to act in an efficient manner, not to waste your potential. But freedom means being free to make bad choices.

|9.13.07 @ 1:24PM|#

The people who railed against the 'damn hippies' sounded intolerant.

Meh. People reacted with contempt to hypocrisy. As I said above, nobody would ever talk about these people if they didn't dress up their lifestyle in ideology.

dhex|9.13.07 @ 3:32PM|#

The funny thing is, if these people were unpretentious about it and said "I just don't want to work a job, I just want to scrounge for things I need, and I like living this way," I'd be perfectly cool with that.

i guess i don't really care that much either way what they do. i'm sort of surprised that others do. well, not really. it's the thing. but it's an old thing. KULTUR WAR etc i guess.

i see the lameness, to be sure - though i don't really see the hypocrisy. the trash is getting thrown out regardless (and fellahs, it's not yours anymore once you put it out on the curb. just fyi.) and they're eating some of it. it would be nice if they weren't dicks about it, but that's their thing.

as i think i mentioned upstream, the correct response to someone being all hoity about their garbage breakdancing is to point at the side of their mouth and say "oh you've got a bit of hepatitis there."

|9.13.07 @ 3:44PM|#

i guess i don't really care that much either way what they do. i'm sort of surprised that others do.

I'm sort of surprised that you care that others care to make a comment on a blog post. Culture war or something, man.

i see the lameness, to be sure - though i don't really see the hypocrisy.

If they wanted to break free of the horrible capitalist system, they could live off the land in the middle of nowhere - which some folks actually do. These folks don't: they want to eat their righteous rebellion and have their products of the global capitalist system, to.

|9.13.07 @ 4:26PM|#

" ...nobody would ever talk about these people if they didn't dress up their lifestyle in ideology."

Very nicely stated.

I don't particularly care what these guys do; eating cast-off food is not the same as "grazing" (that is, shoplifting) in the fruits and veggies aisles in the supermarket, which most of us have observed at one time or another. I do, however, reserve the right to ridicule them.

Dan Clore|9.14.07 @ 3:22AM|#

"It's nice of capitalism to provide such an overflowing cornucopia that the Weissmans of the world can opt out. Wouldn't it be gracious of them to show some love to the system that manages to keep them alive and thriving without even trying?"

You have to admire the way that Doherty explicitly identifies "capitalism" not with a truly free market, but with our current system of state-corporate rule.

Instead, they supposedly ought to "show some love to the system" whose harmful effects they are attempting to counteract.

Incredible.

lpkb|9.18.07 @ 8:35AM|#

There's a lot of hate-filled invective in these responses. I (personally) haven't felt particularly understood, or even described, as I read most of them.

Reason Magazine

Get Reason E-mail Updates!

Site comments/questions:

Media Inquiries and Reprint Permissions:

Editorial & Production Offices:

advertisements