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Who Remembers Now the Destruction of the Armenians?
Jamie Kirchick is making sense about the Anti-Defamation League's stonewalling on a Congressional resolution recognizing the Armenian genocide:
For pragmatic reasons, a sense of the Congress resolution acknowledging the Armenian genocide may not be such a great idea. Turkey is an important ally in the Muslim world. Would it really be worth hurting that relationship over a resolution that, however morally just, bears no force? A few weeks ago, however, a legislator told me that if such a resolution really did offend the Turks to the point that they would hamper American military maneuvers out of Incirlik Air Base or by fooling around in Kurdistan, then maybe our relationship with Turkey is not all it's cracked up to be in the first place.
But at the end of the day, these realpolitik considerations should have no bearing on a civic organization committed to humanitarian goals, which is what the ADL claims to be. Yes, it is part of the ADL's mission to defend Israel (and, it bears noting, to debunk Holocaust deniers)--but the ADL is not a mere extension of the Israeli Foreign Ministry. Pussyfooting on the existence of the Armenian genocide works against everything for which the ADL claims to stand.
Incredibly ironic, too, as the title of this post is a
much-repeated paraphrase of
Hitler's August 22, 1939 speech. Hitler's point was that
founders of great empires are remembered for the kingdoms they
build and not the people they slaughter. He was, unsurprisingly,
wrong as all hell, evidenced by the other example he gave: "history
sees in [Genghis Khan] solely the founder of a state." (The Reich
didn't last long enough for him to witness John Kerry's Senate
testimony or Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure.) How the
ADL expects people to remain concerned about genocide while
forgetting or blowing off a fairly recent genocide, I have no
clue.
I've got nothing else to add to Kirchick: Either the ADL is an
organization that dogpiles people who minimize genocides or Nazism
or it's an extension of Ehud Olmert's press shop.
And yes, I realize I just quoted Hitler to make a point. If Abe
Foxman wants to sue me, the subpoena should be sent to
reason's Washington, D.C. office between 10 a.m.
and 7 p.m. any day this week.
|8.28.07 @ 12:01PM|#
Pussyfooting on the existence of the Armenian genocide works
against everything for which the ADL claims to stand.
Acting against their stated aims? The ADL?? Say it ain't so Dave.
Say it ain't so!
|8.28.07 @ 12:01PM|#
The ADL's reasoning is no different than that of the Pope, who
chose to stop speaking out against the Nazis in an effort to avoid
offending them and protect the Jewish converts in western Europe. A
failed effort, btw, but one that is much more defensible than the
ADLs. Hitler actually was rounding up and killing Jews. The ADL
isn't afraid that the Turks are going to round up Jews; they're
afraid that Israel's foreign policy might become a little
harder.
The ADL: less stout in their denunciation of genocide than the Pope
during WW2.
|8.28.07 @ 12:19PM|#
That's quite a bit of vitriol for a few short paragraphs.
Anyway the ADL backtracked on this several days ago and has already
gotten flak from Turkey.
The Anti-Defamation League reinstated Andrew Tarsy as its New
England regional director, Monday. Tarsy was fired August 17, after
publicly voicing opposition to the organization's refusal to
recognize the Armenian genocide.
Abraham Foxman later reversed the organization's position by
recognizing the World War I massacre of Armenians as genocide for
the first time. Following this reversal, the New England regional
chapter voted to bring back Tarsy as director and to support a
resolution before Congress that would officially recognize the
genocide, despite Foxman's continued opposition to such a
bill
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1188197177361&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
|8.28.07 @ 1:18PM|#
How 'bout -- it was genocidey.
"but the ADL is not a mere extension of the Israeli Foreign
Ministry.. . ."
Sadly it has diminished itself by acting that role for too long a
time.
dhex|8.28.07 @ 2:12PM|#
How 'bout -- it was genocidey.
i've got graves (they're multiplying)
and i'm loo-sin' control
of the death squads
i'm supplying (it's genocidin'!)
Anonymo the Anonymous|8.28.07 @ 3:15PM|#
That reminds me, I do advocate genocide against anyone ever involved in the production or propogation of Grease.
|8.28.07 @ 3:24PM|#
The post also reported Turkey's response to the ADL reversal. They want Israel to tell the ADL to tell congress to stop the bill. Sigh, I wish someone would explain to them that the council of elders only gather's on their moon base to direct world affairs on years that are divisible by seven.
Texas Janissary|8.28.07 @ 3:48PM|#
I'm just going to repeat my last post from August 13 (Michael C.
Moynihan | August 13, 2007, 2:47pm) with a couple of
parenthesis...
If Mexicans (Armenians), with tacit support from Venezuelan
auxiliaries (Russians), began the wholesale slaughter of whites and
blacks (Turks, Kurds and other Muslim ethnicities) in U.S. (Ottoman
Empire) border towns combined with targeted assassinations of
leading Mexican-Americans (Armenian Ottomans) and U.S. citizens
(Ottomans) who opposed the idea of 'Reconquista'(Greater Armenia),
what would, or rather should, the US (Ottoman) government do?
What would it have done in 1915?
And what would it have done in 1915 if simultaneously
Russo-Canadians were attacking from the North, Sino-Japanese forces
were landing in California and a United Europe, Africa Kore was
landing in DC (World War I)?
I'm packing up to visit my Armenian buddy in Sydney with a copy of
Louis de Bernieres', Birds Without Wings. In the meantime, I hope
Moynihan gets an appreciation for context when discussing the sins
of our forefathers (all our forefathers) instead of trotting out
some youtube clown to discredit anyone who would agree with that
ultimate of Turkish government 'agents', Bernard Lewis... (Great
trip, Great Book.)
Peace in the East, War sucks, *isms suck more...
Edward|8.28.07 @ 3:50PM|#
All due respect to the Armenians, but do we really need one more ethnic group wrapped up in a shroud of victimhood? Lacrimose tales of woe and horror are so tiresome. Nobody can outdo the Jews anyway. How about letting bygones be bygones? Have some Turkish delight, and get on with life.
Syloson of Samos|8.28.07 @ 4:17PM|#
Texas Jannisary,
Not to take sides or anything, but the reason that the Armenians
(and Greeks and Jews and Slavs) were part of the Ottoman Empire in
the first place was in large part due to some fairly vrutal
military conquests.
Anyway, things between the Turks and the Armenians didn't simply
heat up in 1915. There had been a number of Armenian rebellions as
well as ant-Armenian slaughters in the late 19th century and early
20th century.
As for Russian involvement as I recall it was the Turks who chose
to declare war on the Allies.
There is of course a complicated history to the region, with all
sides having bloody hands at one point or another, but that hardly
excuses the behavior of any ethnic group either.
|8.28.07 @ 4:20PM|#
I recall hearing that the U.S. and the Ottoman Empire never declared war on each other during WWI. Something to do with all of the American missionaries running around the empire.
Syloson of Samos|8.28.07 @ 4:26PM|#
Pro Libertate,
There were a number of reasons. I'd have to consult some books to
figure out what they were.
Note that following WWI Greece invaded what is today Turkey and
acted rather poorly in the process. When the Turks gained the upper
hand drove the Greeks out they in turn treated the Greek population
of Ionia rather poorly. Then again, exactly who did what in the
Greco-Turkish war is hotly disputed, and since I am not any sort of
expert on the subject...
|8.28.07 @ 4:33PM|#
I don't know all the details myself, but I also recall hearing a story about the Turks banning English (as an enemy alien language) during the war. The American ambassador protested the decision. The Turks did not lift the ban, but they did state that people could continue to speak American.
Syloson of Samos|8.28.07 @ 4:39PM|#
Pro Libertate,
Anyway, the U.S. wasn't really involved in any operations (that I
know of) against the Ottomans. That was a British, French and Arab
affair (and perhaps some Italians were involved too*). The U.S. had
its hands full fielding an army and sending it France.
*Italy's contribution to WWI is almost always forgotten, despite
the heavy casualities it suffered.
Syloson of Samos|8.28.07 @ 4:41PM|#
Pro Libertate,
Also, during and immediately after WWI a number of nations were
looking to wholely dismember even the rump of the Ottoman
Empire.
|8.28.07 @ 4:51PM|#
I just went on a Google rampage. We never did declare war on the Ottoman Empire. We got a bit involved in the break up, but we ended up pulling out of all that when we didn't ratify Versailles. Interestingly, the Syrians were, at one point, lobbying heavily for America to get the mandate for Syria. Weird. We were also supposed to occupy parts of Turkey (the Straits and somewhere else--can't remember), but that, too, fell by the wayside.
|8.28.07 @ 5:57PM|#
"Interestingly, the Syrians were, at one point, lobbying heavily
for America to get the mandate for Syria. Weird. "
Nothing weird about it. Only weird 'cause you're young and
innocent. AntiAmericanism in that area is only middle to late 20th
century; mostly pro-American, even rabidly so, before.
That Syrian lobbying was actually most of the Arab middle east
(generally grouped under Syrian as nationality) -- they wanted NO
Mandate but preferred an American one (Wilson and
self-determination and no imperial record in the area) if there had
to be one at all, else a British one grudingly, but no French
one.
In the end: Got a French one in the area that became Syria and
Lebanon.
Texas Janissary|8.28.07 @ 6:33PM|#
Libertate and Syloson,
I appreciate your comments for not dismissively branding me a
Global Warming..err...Genocide Denier. Personally, I'm fascinated
by the history of the Ottoman Empire in particular and the Middle
East in general but I'll never pretend to be an expert on either.
However, I do believe a fair historian would support the notion
that the Ottoman Millet System of governing minorities was more
'fair and balanced' than anything the 'Empires of the West' devised
until the 1960s (again, emphasis on practice, not theory.) The
internal power struggles of the Ottomans were usually between the
Phanariot Greeks, Jews and Armenians - ironically referred to as
the 'loyal millet' after the Greek War of Independence caused the
Phanariot Greeks to lose much of their prestige in the Sublime
Porte.
Unfortunately, whenever I run into the topic of the Armenian
Genocide it is addressed as if the Ottomans (who never referred to
themselves by the derogatory term Turk until the nationalist bug
bit the Young Turks) were sitting around smoking their hookahs, got
bored and decided to kill anywhere from two hundred thousand to
nine hundred thousand Armenians who were peacefully sitting in
their villages minding their own business. The lack of context such
as the million plus muslims killed in Eastern Anatolia, the Ottoman
dismemberment plans of the Imperial Powers (British, Russian,
German, Italian, American) and the conflicting interests of their
proxies (Greeks, Armenians, Bulgarians, Arabs, Assyrians, Christian
missionaries, etc.) never seem to enter the discussion.
Some day, I'll walk down the streets of Pera and Beyoglu and hear
20 languages in every cafe I pass by. Until then I have to listen
to the Armenian diaspora lobbying for Genocide Recognition, the
Republic of Turkey deeming the subject 'against Turkishness' and
Reason, the bastion of liberty, addressing it without
context...
|8.28.07 @ 7:51PM|#
We can stipulate that the Turks had valid reasons to relocate the Armenians as a security measure, just as the US relocated the ethnic Japanese from the West Coast during World War II. Having undertaken a relocation plan, however, it was the affirmative responsibility of the Young Turk regime to carry it out *without* causing hundreds of thousands of deaths. If they couldn't figure out a way to do that, they they're responsible for the deaths occurring during the relocation. This is totally apart from whether they had a specific purpose to kill Armenians.
Ashley|8.29.07 @ 1:01AM|#
Don't think it's been mentioned but Israel seems obviously a partial motivator as they have specifically refused to acknowledge the Armenian genocide to maintain good relations with Turkey. The government of Israel is just as political and weaselly as any in history. Genocide is an issue only when it benefits computation of foreign aid.
|8.29.07 @ 3:54AM|#
joe:
The ADL isn't afraid that the Turks are going to round up Jews;
they're afraid that Israel's foreign policy might become a little
harder.
Yeah, the ADL conflates the anti anti-Semitism part of their
purview with a defense of the Israeli state-Claiming that
criticisms of the Israeli government is an attack on Jews in
general. This is, of course, unfair to the victims of the Israeli
state. But it's also unfair to Jews cuz it engenders anti-Semitism
by implying that Jews and the Israeli state are the same, thus
falsely making the former culpable for the sins of the latter.
|8.29.07 @ 9:10PM|#
No, Rick, they don't. No one does that. Ever.
You, sir, are indistinguishable from the SS.
Now watch me misspell the word "Jews," as if I've made an
insightful retort to your post. Ready? Ahem:
"Joos"
Boo-yah! I gotcha there! Aw, just admit it, I GOT you!
|8.30.07 @ 5:14PM|#
Dear Madam Secretary Condoleezza Rice:
Your comments during U.S. House Appropriations Subcommittee on
State-Foreign Operations hearings (Wednesday, March 21, 2007), on
the issue of the Armenian Genocide are insulting, racist, and void
of decency.
According to your remarks the United States should not be involved
in a dispute between Turkey and Armenia over whether the killing of
up to 1.5 million Armenians almost a century ago constituted
genocide.
The Armenian Genocide is an American human rights issue, not a
dispute between two distant countries. Just as slavery was and
still is an American human rights issue not a dispute between
Nigeria or any other African state and Great Britain.
The present day Republic of Armenia, and the Republic of Nagorno
Karapakh, have little concern about the Armenian Genocide because
they are the only provinces of historic Armenia which were able to
defend themselves against continuous Turkish aggressions, and
maintain their independence against the harshest odds. These
Republics and their neighboring Turkish states do have many issues
which have a better chance of being resolved once the United States
properly acknowledges the Armenian Genocide.
It is I, and millions of Americans of Armenian descent like me, who
lost their ancestral homeland, and found refuge in this great
country, it is us that were promised to have our homes back by
President Woodrow Wilson, it is us who want you to honor our
history and our rights as human beings.
If all Americans adopted your racist attitude about human rights
issues probably you would still have been a slave now. After
reading your comments I wonder which is worse, the physical
enslavement of people, or the enslavement of the mind which leads
to the moral prostitution of the American constitution and all the
values that it stands for in the hands of this
administration.
Your comments are equally insulting and degrading to Turkish
Americans and citizens of Turkey who are working to introduce a
true democracy in that country, so that it can be integrated into
the European Union. True democratic values and traditions are
trampled over and destroyed in Turkey by our desire to accommodate
bases for our troops, airfields for our warplanes, and contracts
for our multinational corporations.
Finally, how would you feel if our past secretary of states told
Dr. Martin Luther King and all the civil rights advocates "I think
that these historical circumstances require a very detailed and
sober look from historians and what we've encouraged the 'Slave
Traders' and the 'Negroes' to do is to have joint historical
commissions that can look at this, to have efforts to examine their
past and, in examining their past, to get over their past". I took
the liberty to replace 'Turks' and the 'Armenians' with my example,
but you can replace with other pairs, such as: Germans and the
Jews, Serbs and Kosovars, Americans and Natives, etc.
Thank God that we still have courageous lawmakers on both sides of
the isle to question your reasoning on this issue. Your choice of
words "I come out of academia, but I'm secretary of state now," I
suppose this is meant to say that you used to be a decent human
being when you were in academia, but now that you work for this
administration you have to leave moral courage, decency, and common
sense behind you.
May God give you the wisdom to do the right thing.
Sincerely,
Kevork K. Kalayjian, Jr.
|8.31.07 @ 12:18AM|#
"Texas Janissary" Wrote:
If Mexicans (Armenians), with tacit support from Venezuelan
auxiliaries (Russians), began the wholesale slaughter of whites and
blacks (Turks, Kurds and other Muslim ethnicities) in U.S. (Ottoman
Empire) border towns combined with targeted assassinations of
leading Mexican-Americans (Armenian Ottomans) and U.S. citizens
(Ottomans) who opposed the idea of 'Reconquista'(Greater Armenia),
what would, or rather should, the US (Ottoman) government do?
What would it have done in 1915?
What a bunch of garbage! 95% of the Armenian military age males had
already been drafted into the Ottoman Army.
Turkish historians already agree that the Ottoman government
ordered the killings of hundreds of thousands of Armenains in the
1890s'. When it occurred again with much larger numbers under the
Young Turks in 1915 almost every Armenian male between 17 and 45
years old was in the Ottoman Army far from Armenia.
The "rebellion" at that point was exactly analogous to the Warsaw
Ghetto Uprising! Your comment is like saying the Holocaust occurred
because of the resistance to the Holocaust!
I am Turkish and we were taught complete lies about this back in
Turkey. One of my professors was actually arested. Turkish
Academics and writers have been arrested for just mentioning the
"massacres" nevermind thte "g" word!
The Jewish American lobby is not helping Turkey, they are helping
mindless nationalists who wish to quash freedom in Turkey!
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