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Brits Gorge on Ottomans
In the Palestinian territories, the Bush administration's push for more "democracy" in the Middle East resulted in a landslide victory for Hamas (surprise!). After nearly two years of backroom deals and street battles between its fighters and Fatah, Hamas is in firm control of Gaza and its security agencies. Now, according to Britain's Daily Telegraph, the West Bank too "could soon fall to Hamas":
The lawlessness that led the moderate Fatah faction to lose control of Gaza is repeating itself in the West Bank, a senior Palestinian official has claimed.
Unless something is done to neutralise unofficial armed militias, part of the region could fall to Hamas, the hardline Islamic faction, dooming any chance of an independent state in the near future.
Taysir Nasrallah, an electoral officer, also cautioned the international community not to rely on the weak leadership of Mahmoud Abbas, the president of the Palestinian national authority.
"Mr Abbas's leadership is not strong enough to stand up to the armed factions here in the West Bank,'' Mr Nasrallah said in his home town of Nablus.
"He is also not strong enough to stand up to the Israelis or to win the confidence of the Palestinian people that Israel will end its occupation and remove the reason for the armed factions to exist. So we have more chaos here, more criminality and more lawlessness - just as there was in Gaza before Hamas took over.
"Unless the security situation improves there is a chance that what happened in Gaza could happen here too.''
Also via the Telegraph, this video of a London-based Islamist Hani al-Sibai debating—maybe ‘haranguing' is the right word here—a brave Egyptian liberal who patiently explains, using Gaza as an example, that "The ballot box alone doesn't constitute democracy" and that Hamas must follow through by ruling democratically. Note al-Sibai's hilarious/bizarre digression on why the English eat turkey on Christmas. (And yes, there is an Atatürk connection.)
Syloson of Samos|8.20.07 @ 12:02PM|#
Gaza is a lot calmer now. Indeed, the aid agencies that work there have apparently been able to work far more freely (and safely) in getting their work done than was the case before.
|8.20.07 @ 12:09PM|#
I thought I heard something when my radio went on this morning about Israel shutting off power to Palestine because they didn't pay their bill. I was still half asleep. Just something I dreamt?
|8.20.07 @ 12:36PM|#
I thought turkey is an American dish.Didn't Ben Franklin want it to be the national bird?
lunchstealer|8.20.07 @ 12:40PM|#
My family tends to do either roast beef or roast pork, although we've started adding lamb to the mix. Not that we're English or anything. We just don't like turkey that much.
Les|8.20.07 @ 12:45PM|#
No, the man is right, my family literally eats Muslims for Christmas. Usually we roast them, but this year, we're going to stuff our Muslim with a Hindu and deep fry them together. Yummy!
|8.20.07 @ 12:46PM|#
Are there really that many people in this country afraid of a
movement that will put that moron on TV as a public face?
Of course, it could be that thinking that English people eat
"turkey" as a conscious slight against Muslims is better than
having to come to the conclusion that your "enemy" doesn't really
give two shits in a bucket about you at all.
They are so desperate to be hated they'll make it up out of whole
cloth if they have to.
|8.20.07 @ 12:47PM|#
Les,
You guys are having Muhinducken, too? Awesome! Make sure to brine
them first to keep them moist.
iih|8.20.07 @ 12:56PM|#
Al-Sibai is such an idiot. Just to all on this board... please please do not jump to conclusions generalizing this idiot to all Muslims or Arabs. He's such a disgrace.
Les|8.20.07 @ 1:02PM|#
iih,
I figure all ideologies have their Falwells and Robertsons. The
media loves them much more than boring, reasonable types.
|8.20.07 @ 1:03PM|#
iih,
Of course.
His opponent, the Egyptian professor, was brilliant...and he was
clearly blown away by Al-Sibai's insanity.
|8.20.07 @ 1:15PM|#
iih,
My indefinite pronouns aside, I was commenting on Islamists, as
opposed to Muslims. I could have been clearer.
On the other hand, the whole turkey / cannibalism thing was pretty
funny. Maybe he should take Rosie's place on The View. He
and Ann Coulter Jr. would be entertainingly at each other's throats
every single day.
iih|8.20.07 @ 1:22PM|#
Michael, Les and SugarFree:
Yes, of course. I apologize for my over-sensitivity (on another
thread, the one about the mall in Mecca, someone made some very
offensive remarks, and I guess I was still a bit edgy).
He and Ann Coulter Jr. would be entertainingly at each other's
throats every single day.
:-) haha... wouldn't that be a sight!
But actually that is an excellent point. You see Coulter would
probably argue that this nut represents all Muslims (and hence lets
invade their countries and teach them a lesson), while Sibai will
argue that Coulter represents the West and would recommend an
Islamic jihad against the West.
Though I would admit that Coulter would be a whole lot smarter than
Sibai. But both are nut cases.
iih|8.20.07 @ 1:23PM|#
Mo:
Yes, Danishes indeed. But "Danish" was actually "invented"
elsewhere, was it Austria in celebration of stopping the Ottomans
from advancing on Vienna?
Brian Sorgatz|8.20.07 @ 1:28PM|#
All this time, I thought the English were eating poor Irish children for Christmas.
|8.20.07 @ 1:31PM|#
Yes, Danishes indeed. But "Danish" was actually "invented"
elsewhere, was it Austria in celebration of stopping the Ottomans
from advancing on Vienna?
Croissants, actually, but the story is also
bogus.
lunchstealer|8.20.07 @ 1:33PM|#
No, the English eat Welsh children. The Irish eat Irish children. But either way, those orphans aren't going to feast on themselves!
BruceM|8.20.07 @ 1:36PM|#
As long as there is religion, there will be no peace in the world. If this doesn't prove it, I don't know what does. Yes, some religions are worse than others, but they all stink and they all cause harm, only to varying degrees.
|8.20.07 @ 2:00PM|#
Lord knows I'm not much of a Bush defender, but I don't see how he gets the blame for the Palestinians electing Hamas.
|8.20.07 @ 2:03PM|#
They are so desperate to be hated they'll make it up out of
whole cloth if they have to.
Absolutely. It's the Middle Eastern version of the War on
Christmas.
M. Ram|8.20.07 @ 2:12PM|#
iih:
I realize not all Arabs are like the one living on the dole in
England, but I do worry about who will win in the long run. The
fanatics, or the reasonable ones like al-Qimmi. The Muslim
Brotherhood is popular in Egypt, and Hamas and Hizballah also have
much popularity.
|8.20.07 @ 2:17PM|#
As long as there is religion, there will be no peace in the
world. If this doesn't prove it, I don't know what does. Yes, some
religions are worse than others, but they all stink and they all
cause harm, only to varying degrees.
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a
tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you ... whosoever shall smite
thee on the right cheek, turn to him the other also ... Ye have
heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and
hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them
that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them
which despitefully use you, and persecute you." (Matthew 5:38
-44)
Peace is possible. Don't lump all religious beliefs together
because of some misguided fanatics who don't understand the true
nature of God.
|8.20.07 @ 2:21PM|#
Has there ever been an immigrant group in a western democracy
that didn't overwhelmingly abandon the radical politics they
brought over with them in favor of western democracy?
I'm thinking of the anarchists in the early 20th century, the
Russians and Finns who embraced some form of Communism, and the
Portuguese who were loyal to wossisname, the Franco clone who ruled
for most of the late 20th century. None of their kids are
anarchists, Trotskyites, or fascists.
|8.20.07 @ 2:24PM|#
None of their kids are anarchists, Trotskyites, or
fascists.
Well, maybe a few anarcho-capitalists ... ;)
|8.20.07 @ 2:30PM|#
Lord knows I'm not much of a Bush defender, but I don't see
how he gets the blame for the Palestinians electing
Hamas.
Bush was pretty widely criticized at the time for pushing for the
elections (as part of the Road Map) thinking that the election
would usher in a West leaning democracy instead of a humiliating
Hamas win.
Also, in the run up to the election, it was discovered that they
were giving money thru USAID, and sponsoring sewer and street
cleaning initiatives, for the Palestinian Authority in an effort to
influence the election towards Fatah. That backfired.
I'm sure someone somewhere in the executive branch was quoted at
the time, "No one could have foreseen a Fatah electoral
victory."
|8.20.07 @ 2:42PM|#
I'm sure someone somewhere in the executive branch was quoted at
the time, "No one could have foreseen a Fatah Hamas
electoral victory."
Oops.
smarterthanmichael|8.20.07 @ 2:45PM|#
"iih | August 20, 2007, 12:56pm | #
Al-Sibai is such an idiot. Just to all on this board... please
please do not jump to conclusions generalizing this idiot to all
Muslims or Arabs. He's such a disgrace."
Ah but that is Michael Moynihan's purpose at Hit n Run. If you see
something about Islam on Hit n Run changes are 90% or greater that
it was posted by Michael Moynihan and that it will be extremely
negative.
Syloson of Samos|8.20.07 @ 2:48PM|#
joe,
The Molly Maguires were only undermined by violence, what one might
call counter-insurgency efforts and the use of the courts (whether
any of this was just is a question for debate).
Syloson of Samos|8.20.07 @ 2:51PM|#
joe,
A major issue of course being just how much of the claims about the
Mollies were fabricated in some fashion.
|8.20.07 @ 2:58PM|#
Sylos,
The Molly Maguires were a homegrown phenomenon. I was talking about
people bringing a radical ideology with them as they
immigrated.
Syloson of Samos|8.20.07 @ 3:05PM|#
joe,
The origins of the Mollies are in Ireland. They (that is the people
who founded the Mollies) are part of tradition of secret orders
created in rural Ireland going back to perhaps the post-Cromwellian
era.
|8.20.07 @ 3:17PM|#
joe,
I think you might be conceding too much rationality to the
bed-wetters. I think they believe Muslim immigrants are a shadow
invasion force, not people looking for a better life. They imagine
the 2nd generation being raised here will be "agents" that can move
freely through our culture.
Also, is it just me, or has Colbert put the phrase "War on
Christmas" right in it's grave? Every time I hear it, that graphic
of an armed Jesus and Santa Claus loops in my brain for ten solid
minutes.
|8.20.07 @ 3:25PM|#
Also, in the run up to the election, it was discovered that they were giving money thru USAID, and sponsoring sewer and street cleaning initiatives, for the Palestinian Authority in an effort to influence the election towards Fatah. That backfired.
I suspect it backfired because a lot of that money ended up in the
pockets of the Fatah kleptocrats.
Electing Hamas for most Palestinians was far more about wanting
honest and efficient government than fighting Israel. Not that
there's any lack of Israel-hatred "on the street", mind you.
To many, Fatah were a bunch of thieves while Hamas were the guys
with the clinics and schools and relief for the poor.
I had the hope after the election that Hamas might have realized
that and got to work filling potholes and building watermains. As
usual I was disappointed.
Syloson of Samos|8.20.07 @ 3:27PM|#
SugarFree,
Also, is it just me, or has Colbert put the phrase "War on
Christmas" right in it's grave? Every time I hear it, that graphic
of an armed Jesus and Santa Claus loops in my brain for ten solid
minutes.
I dunno, about Santa, but Jesus seems like he is locked and loaded
in Mark.
|8.20.07 @ 3:31PM|#
Syloson,
OK, I can see how that muddies the waters.
But back to my point, the radicalism of that grouop is hardly
characteristic of Irish-Americans today, or even of the previous
two-four generations. To the extent they brough such a tradition of
politics with them, it more of less dies out in the sunshine of
American democracy.
iih|8.20.07 @ 3:41PM|#
M. Ram:
I realize not all Arabs are like the one living on the dole in
England, but I do worry about who will win in the long run. The
fanatics, or the reasonable ones like al-Qimmi. The Muslim
Brotherhood is popular in Egypt, and Hamas and Hizballah also have
much popularity.
I honestly do not have an answer to that. The "Islamist" government
in Turkey seems to be doing okay so far (i.e., secularism is not
being undermined). I would hope for a truly democratic society. I
think there is hope and that there is change taking place. However
the competition is harsh vis-a-vis the Islamists. I would argue,
though, that the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt is not the same as
Hizbollah or Hamas since it (MB) does not have a militant arm. I
personally do not trust them (they committed some pretty horrible
things in the 1950s).
iih|8.20.07 @ 3:45PM|#
It is worth noting that recently there has been high-ranking American officials (especially from the US embassy in Cairo and other congressmen) have been meeting with the MB. MB, on the other hand, has been trying to reassert personal freedoms (i.e., not enforcing wearing of head scarf, ban on alcohol, persecution of Coptic Egyptians,... etc) to gain some popular trust, but I would say that most Egyptians (outside the MB membership circles, which is a very small percentage of the overall Egyptian population) trusts the MB.
|8.20.07 @ 3:50PM|#
If you see something about Islam The LDS
Church on Hit n Run chances are 90% or greater that it
was posted by Michael Moynihan and that it will be extremely
negative.
*****
Can we maybe, in future H&R articles and the subsequent
threads, discuss terrorism or Mitt Romney without snarking on Islam
or Mormons -- unless you have a valid point about either set of
religious beliefs based on actual facts about the beliefs and
practices of adherents? Yust a thought. iih and I would appreciate
it, yeah?
|8.20.07 @ 4:04PM|#
jh,
Equating all Muslims with terrorists is not the same as questioning
the religious beliefs of a presidential candidate who is running,
at least in part, on those beliefs.
Besides, you might want to save some of the victimization stance
for later. If he gets the nomination, America's going to be treated
to a long, hard look at the Mormon faith and I doubt it's going to
like what it sees...
iih|8.20.07 @ 4:08PM|#
jh:
On a second thought, it is sometimes the raising of some of the
stereotypical negativity about Islam, Mormonism, or any other
ideology, is the opportunity to discuss (reasonably and
intelligently) the issue at hand and offer a chance for people to
clarify or explain the stereotypes. My only concern is with people
who raise issues just to be antagonist and for the sole purpose of
offending adherents of, say Islam or Mormonism. So far I did not
feel like that was H&R's mission or that of Michael Moynihan --
but after all I have not been a regular visitor of reason magazine
for a long time (now I am a proud member and have a regular
subscription). I like this forum because, if nothing else, its
title "reason". I do hope that reason magazine editors and writers
are reasonable, even on contentious issues, and fair in their
criticism. Essentially, being sincere about the criticism is what
matters to me.
Jennifer|8.20.07 @ 4:22PM|#
Can we maybe, in future H&R articles and the subsequent
threads, discuss terrorism or Mitt Romney without snarking on Islam
or Mormons
WITHOUT SNARKING
ISLAM OR MORMONS
There ya go.
|8.20.07 @ 5:04PM|#
In an odd way, it seems like the Hamas political victory has worked out relatively well for Israel, to the extent that the Palestinians have begun to eat their own.
Goldthwait|8.20.07 @ 5:31PM|#
"The ballot box alone doesn't constitute democracy"
Are you serious? Does that mean that Hugo Chavez may not a the
great democrat? Is this true, joe?
Goldthwait|8.20.07 @ 5:32PM|#
Electing Hamas for most Palestinians was far more about wanting
honest and efficient government than fighting Israel.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Hold on, let me catch my
breath. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
|8.20.07 @ 5:33PM|#
If the threat to Israel had come in the form of the Palestinian
military, bubba, then a civil war among Palestinians which tied
that military down would indeed have made them safer.
And if the threat to use from Afghanistan had come in the form of
the Afghan military, then the civil war that was raging in that
country in the summer of 01 would have made us safer, too.
And if Iraq had been a threat to us from its military, then the
civil war raging there right now would cause us to be safer from an
Iraqi threat than we were in February of 03.
But that's not how terrorism works. The failure of states, even
nasty states, only serves to increase the ability of stateless
terrorist groups to operate.
In five years, the Israelis are not going to look back on this
civil war as having made them safer.
Goldthwait|8.20.07 @ 5:35PM|#
"I had the hope after the election that Hamas might have
realized that and got to work filling potholes and building
watermains. As usual I was disappointed"
You mean you actually thought that Hamas would actually give up
their entire reason for being, i.e. destroying Israel, and stop
financing and perpetrating terror? The word gullible does not even
begin to do you justice.
|8.20.07 @ 5:35PM|#
Goldthwait,
I've never said Chavez was a great democrat; I've said that he was
a threat to democracy, and the continuation of democratic
institutions was important for keeping him in line.
Are my ideas really so terrifying that you have to make up weaker
ones to attribute to me?
|8.20.07 @ 5:51PM|#
I don't get it, I heard when Romney's father ran in the 1960s he being a Mormon wasn't even an issue. We have kind of gone backwards huh?
M|8.20.07 @ 5:55PM|#
My only concern is with people who raise issues just to be antagonist and for the sole purpose of offending adherents of, say Islam or Mormonism.
My take on the comments to which I think you are referring is that
their purpose is not solely, nor even principally, to offend
adherents, so much as it is a sincere attempt to disabuse the
susceptible of what are thought to be their delusions. I believe
this exercise is intended for their/our own good, and to warn
others against philosophical error, however much their authors'
resentment of personal bad experience with religions sometimes
mixes into their protest, its style, and/or its tone.
As a Christian and as one who holds certain cultural principles
important, I find some of these remarks unpleasant, and of course
(by definition) I find them misguided. I also believe they meant
sincerely, on the order of Aristotle saying of his teacher "We love
Plato but we love truth more."
I find that holding this attitude about my opponents gives me the
most mileage, including an occasional chuckle, out of the attacks,
sine agita.
iih|8.20.07 @ 5:59PM|#
M:
Very well said indeed. This re-enforces what I mentioned
earlier:
http://www.reason.com/blog/show/122069.html#769010
Syloson of Samos|8.20.07 @ 6:04PM|#
joe,
Labor trouble, etc. in ethnic communities was common throughout the
19th century. Indeed, it used to be thought that the sort of
machine wrecking that was common enough in Britain and other
European locales was virtually absent in the U.S., but that has
come under a reassessment of late.
As for why such activities and the groups that perpetrated them
ceased I can't say. That they have largely ceased on both sides of
the Atlantic of course says something.
Fritz|8.20.07 @ 6:14PM|#
The problem seems to be that they put too much emphasis on democracy, which can lean liberal or oppressive depending on the cultural climate (as we've seen in Palestine), and no emphasis on what they really need: limited constitutional government.
M|8.20.07 @ 6:20PM|#
what I mentioned earlier
And here I was bracing for an anathemizing "You're a
poopoohead!"
iih|8.20.07 @ 6:34PM|#
M:
One proves otherwise by standing up in a non-poopoohead stance to
such personal attacks. I think they call themselves "hawks", but
most often they are an ignorant bunch, or collectivists. The sad
thing is that these days they have more dominance in the public
discourse (e.g., Coulter, Tancredo, Fox News, some prominent
leaders in the Evangelical movement). But they really seem most
afraid of rational discourse because it (rationality) reveals how
awfully dull, ignorant and incapable they are.
iih|8.20.07 @ 6:39PM|#
M:
... of course not! :-)
I would add that, unfortunately, Ron Paul gets very little media
attention. He is my kind of hawk.
|8.20.07 @ 7:03PM|#
Sugarfree -- feel free to snark on Romney for what he says he
believes, or for the policies he proposes based on those beliefs.
Plenty of things to hate on him about without gratuitous swipes.
Feel free to snark on Mormon or Islamic beliefs based on knowing
what those beliefs actually are.
What I'm like to not see is bashing Mormons based on ludicrously
inaccurate stereotypes that a half-hour of browing the FAQ section
of lds.org would dispel. I get enough of that from my Mormon-hating
mother.
Though, as iih pointed out, I too am willing to discuss the actual
beliefs of our church with anyone who has misconceptions, and try
to get them to a more accurate viewpoint.
So, Sugarfree, what are the specific things about the LDS Church
you think will embarass Romney if he gets the nomination? A starter
kit:
Polygamy before 1890
Ludicrously unstylish underwear
Untermensch|8.20.07 @ 8:27PM|#
Let me try to portray libertarians as accurately as Mormons are
often portrayed on Hit&Run:
Libertarians don't want us to have roads.
Libertarians all believe in the Trilateral Commission.
Libertarians all have a basement full of guns and want to kill
anyone who comes on their property.
Libertarians are all a bunch of dope smoking fiends who hate the
government because it wants to take away their marijuana.
Libertarians want poor people to die and won't help others.
Libertarians want to turn everything over to big
corporations.
Yep, all about as accurate as what every schmuck on H&R who
knows "all about them Mormons" posts as facts.
There may be (in fact there certainly are) problems with
Mormons/Mormonism, but it's a good chance that when the
descriptions posted here are so far off what Mormons recognize as
factually true about themselves that it is the folks making the
posts who should learn a few things before making stupid
statements.
I think that many H&R posters like to bag on Mormons because
they're tired of being bagged on themselves and think that they've
found a group even weirder than themselves to bag on.
|8.20.07 @ 10:18PM|#
As a completely areligious person (i.e. I don't care about the
existence or non-existence of God) I find Mormon beliefs to be no
more or less irrational (in the sense of not being dependent on
empirical evidence) than any other variety of faith.
All I was really getting at is the fact that the vast majority of
Americans are very accepting of religions without actually having
to logically engage with the mystical aspects of said religious
because they happened so long ago. In other words, walking on water
2000 years ago is easier for people to accept than 200 years
ago.
Mormons are getting better and better at spinning their history to
their advantage, especially as they move further away from Utah and
other like-minded enclaves. This will serve them well on the
national stage. Playing the victim game is a great way to
delegitimize criticism as bigotry.
|8.21.07 @ 12:30AM|#
I can say as a convinced atheist I don't have a problem with
Mormons anymore than I have a problem with orthodox Christians,
Jews, Muslims, or Hindus. That is, yeah, they have some beliefs
that are strange and messed up to me but they can still be very
good, decent people.
What irks me is when orthodox Christians try to paint Mormons or
Muslims as these weirdos when really their beliefs are just as
strange as what Mormons believe. I'm sorry but if you believe that
guys rise from the dead, or that God chose once race to be
"chosen", or that God chose to speak to in illiterate Arab small
businessman to give him the final revelation, then you have no room
to talk about "strange" beliefs.
M|8.21.07 @ 7:50AM|#
Cesar, does it irk you more, or only, when orthodox Xians do this vs. when members of the other groups you mentioned do this?
M|8.21.07 @ 7:52AM|#
Btw, I guess I might make clear that painting someone as weird seems to me uncharitable, hence unchristian.
M|8.21.07 @ 8:00AM|#
Okay, I more carefully reread your paragraph #2, and now see that your third example pertains only (among the major world-religions) to Muslims, whereas the first two examples pertain to Judaism and Christianity and Islam. So are you an equal-opportunity irkee?
|8.21.07 @ 9:18AM|#
So, Sugarfree, what are the specific things about the LDS Church you think will embarass Romney if he gets the nomination? A starter kit:
Polygamy before 1890
Ludicrously unstylish underwear
Angel Moroni? Moroni?!? Seriously, I think Smith
was taunting people with that one. ;-)
|8.21.07 @ 11:30AM|#
S. of S.,
Labor troubles etc. was common among working-class, native-born
Americans throughout the 18th and 19th centuries, too. Even the
Mill Girls in Lowell!
I'll also note that "labor unrest" is not comparable to radical
political movements such as anarchism in the 1900s or Islamism in
the 2000s.
|8.21.07 @ 11:47AM|#
Electing Hamas for most Palestinians was far more about
wanting honest and efficient government than fighting Israel. Not
that there's any lack of Israel-hatred "on the street", mind
you.
I saw a recent Wide Lens in Gaza (Gaza Emergency Room, or something
like that).
One of the doctors they interviewed about the Gaza elections
claimed electing Hamas was essential a big "Fuck You" done with no
illusions about Hamas being a good choice.
|8.21.07 @ 2:15PM|#
Neu Mejican
There have been plenty of stories that basically say that while
Hamas' basic appeal is their militant anti-Israel position they
have cemented their status in the community with their charitable
work.
Again many Palestinians see Fatah as a bunch of thieves, wile they
see Hamas as good honest charitable people.
It's a shame, of course, that there is no moderate peace making
voice among the Palistinians. But then such a voice has not been
that common on the Israeli side as well.
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