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Michael C. Moynihan asks who deserves the blame for Iraq: Incredibly arrogant policymakers or incredibly credulous reporters?
mw|7.17.07 @ 1:22PM|#
"who deserves the blame for Iraq: Incredibly arrogant
policymakers or incredibly credulous reporters"
How about - both.
Steven Thomas|7.17.07 @ 1:23PM|#
Saddam Hussien. Our terror defense system is so feeble that had
he been half-way competent, he could have brought the US to its
knees with a series of "first strikes".
I'm not kidding.
|7.17.07 @ 1:28PM|#
This looks the same as 'the war on drugs','the war on poverty','the war on pornograph' or many other policies that were at first popular.
|7.17.07 @ 1:29PM|#
"Senator Bernie Sanders thinks that the news media "are as
responsible as President Bush for the disaster that now befalls
us...."
As much as I would have liked to hear a chant of "Bull Shit! Bull
Shit! Bull Shit!" spontaneously erupt during each and every White
House press briefing in the run-up to the invasion and overthrow of
Iraq, responsibility for the war and consequent disasters lies with
the administration which "planned" and carried it out.
|7.17.07 @ 1:30PM|#
Sorry, no sale. During the lead up to the war the American press was nothing but the president's lapdog. However much "blame" they deserve, they failed utterly in their self-defined job discription.
|7.17.07 @ 1:36PM|#
I'd like to blame fear mongers everywhere but really the blame
belongs with us, the cowardly general public.
Maybe we would have done better with better leadership and maybe we
would have done better with better information; regardless, we were
way too quick to follow the fear mongers wherever they wanted to
go, and the blame for that belongs to us alone.
|7.17.07 @ 1:40PM|#
It was quite natural for the press to defer to the President at
a time of national crisis. The Democrats had a majority in the
Senate. If the Democrats had aggressively confronted Bush's lies,
the press would have reported what they said. I'm sure plenty of
reporters wish that they could be like Jon Stewart, and be paid $2
million a year to make snarky one-liners that 90% of the population
won't understand, but that won't happen.
That said, neither the Post nor the Times has much to be proud of.
Judith Miller's "reporting" was bad journalism. The Post has never
really confronted its abysmal handling of the Jessica Lynch
"story." Post reporters were deliberately lied to by military press
people. Who were they? The Post won't say.
|7.17.07 @ 1:40PM|#
Saddam is partially to blame. He bluffed on WMDs and we called
him on it. He had years to demonstrate that he got rid of his WMDs,
but kept up a charade of a coverup. Was he trying to fool us, or
just his people?
Of course, it's not ALL his fault. Chest thumping braggadocio is
what dictators do.
VM|7.17.07 @ 1:42PM|#
Those who made the decision (congress authorizing, president for
lying about reason).
the buck stops there.
|7.17.07 @ 1:45PM|#
"It was quite natural for the press to defer to the
President at a time of national crisis. The Democrats had a
majority in the Senate. If the Democrats had aggressively
confronted Bush's lies, the press would have reported what they
said."
I don't have anything nice to say about how the Democrats handled
things, but in a nation of frightened sheep, expecting elected
politicians to challenge the fear mongers just isn't
reasonable.
Episiarch|7.17.07 @ 1:46PM|#
The media is a bunch of sensationalist morons, and anyone who
listens to anything they say without a ton of skepticism is an
idiot.
People love to find somebody to blame for any fucking thing that
happens. So now we have the recriminations flying. Big deal; it
always happens this way. The reality is that "blame" is often far
too nebulous and widespread to assign, so you either get a
scapegoat or argue at length that your particular boogeyman is "to
blame".
If you want to be technical, it is the President's fault, and also
Congress', because only they have the power to act and to
authorize. But they thought they were acting on the wishes of the
people, which they are supposedly supposed to do.
Collective action is a bitch. Makes blame much harder to pin (for
those who have a fetish for pinning blame).
DOKTOR MINION|7.17.07 @ 1:46PM|#
Pay no attention to the URKOBOLD. He is having a case of the Malkoviches
|7.17.07 @ 1:47PM|#
Blame, if any, should be placed on the people who were in
control of the war efforts. Much of the outcome is an effect of
their decisions.
The media has nothing to do with missions selected or how they were
executed. Problems on the ground are not created by the media, only
reported.
|7.17.07 @ 1:49PM|#
The way the entire country was handling itself in late
2002/early 2003 during the run-up to the war seriously made me
consider leaving the country.
The chest-thumping, the jingoism, the stupid French-bashing, the
trivialization of war, the faux chickenhawk masculinity of
the
Republicans, the cowardice of the Democrats (supposedly the
"opposition" party), the labeling of anyone who dare question King
George II as "giving comfort to the enemy.
Every, single, living moment of it made me sick.
Urkobold™|7.17.07 @ 1:50PM|#
VIKING MINION,
THE URKOBOLD WOULD CHASTISE YOU, BUT HE IS USING NEW TECHNOLOGY TO
REPLACE YOUR POSTINGS WITH PICTURES OF THE LOBSTER GIRL.
Urkobold™|7.17.07 @ 2:07PM|#
VM,
THE URKOBOLD IS NOT AMUSED BY YOUR HERESY. GO TO YOUR ROOM AND
WATCH KRIEG DER STERNE ONE THOUSAND TIMES.
|7.17.07 @ 2:14PM|#
Yeah, many threaten. None ever do.
If that crap had continued for a few more years I would have made
good on it.
It was as if the entire country at that time had said "Hey, lets
talk all the unflattering stereotypes the rest of the
world holds about us, and make them all true!"
|7.17.07 @ 2:17PM|#
"The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars,
But in ourselves, that we are underlings."
--From Julius Caesar (I, ii, 140-141)
While Ken Schultz does have a point, that every member of the
res publica does bear some responsibility, please keep in
mind that there were people who spoke out. They were shouted down
and humiliated by those in the press and in political office.
At the time, I was more impressed by the fact that so many people
actually did have the courage to dissent publicly. This would not
have happened fifty years ago.
Maybe, just maybe, people will take a lesson from this and, next
time, the band of dissenters will be larger.
That being said, the politicians and the media do have a
responsibility to treat dissenters with respect and not to make
them outcasts. Leadership which does not listen and media who do
not investigate are the handmaidens of disaster.
shecky|7.17.07 @ 2:20PM|#
I'll back up Cesar. The country lost it's head for what seemed
like a pretty long time following 9/11, and GWB enjoyed a rather
long period of restraint on the part of the media and citizens. At
a time when critical thinking was most needed, America collectively
surrendered to what was thought to be even before 9/11, a
fantastically incompetent president.
Certainly GWB must be held responsible for his fuck ups, and just
as much for abusing the faith of Americans. But Americans are also
responsible, as the desire simply to kick someone's ass for 9/11
degraded to a complicity to kick anyone's ass regarless of
complicity with the act.
|7.17.07 @ 2:42PM|#
"It was our fault - these are the leaders we chose to make the
decisions."
Including politicians like Hillary who gave Bush the OK.
|7.17.07 @ 2:54PM|#
"The chest-thumping, the jingoism, the stupid French-bashing,
the trivialization of war, the faux chickenhawk masculinity of
the
Republicans, the cowardice of the Democrats (supposedly the
"opposition" party), the labeling of anyone who dare question King
George II as "giving comfort to the enemy."
I also felt that way during the first Gulf war. I felt all alone in
my opposition to the war. Even most Hollywood stars supported
it.
Sal Paradise|7.17.07 @ 2:59PM|#
"Certainly GWB must be held responsible for his fuck
ups..."
I like how Bill Maher put it :
"You don't get to become the worst president ever without a little
help from the other side. "
|7.17.07 @ 3:24PM|#
"""It was our fault - these are the leaders we chose to make the
decisions.""""
True people have some responsible for who they elect, but they have
no control beyond that. The fact that Bush was reelected shows the
majority of the voting public approved of his policies. But to
outright blame the citizens is to pass the buck. One could argue
that Americans supported a winning strategy and didn't receive what
that wanted. That would be like going to a resturant, getting a
really bad meal and then the chef blames you because you ordered
it.
Urkobold™|7.17.07 @ 3:41PM|#
THE URKOBOLD CUTS OUT THE MIDDLE MAN AND BLAMES EACH AND EVERY U.S. SOLDIER. THEY SHOULD'VE MUTINIED AND INVADED A NATION MORE AMENABLE TO OUR INFLUENCE. LIKE CHINA.
Minion of URKOBOLD|7.17.07 @ 3:48PM|#
There's someone who took Michael Porter's Disintermediation seriously!
|7.17.07 @ 3:57PM|#
"The Democrats had a majority in the Senate. If the Democrats
had aggressively confronted Bush's lies, the press would have
reported what they said."
Maybe in bizarro land or some Fox news alternate reality. The GOP
had the House and there their party supported the war pretty much
lockstep (only SIX dissenters, now that's groupthink for ya). A
majority of Dems in the House opposed the war. With the exception
of Lincoln Chafee every GOPer in the Senate voted for the war,
while 21 of the 50 Dems voted against it. The Dems are to blame for
a majority of their party in the Senate voting for this mess, but
other than that the blame is squarely on the GOP. But notice how
incompetent the Dem party is right now as they are set to nominate
Hillary who voted for the war, thus giving the GOP a chance to duck
their screw-up by claiming it was a bi-partisan war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Resolution#Voted_in_favor
|7.17.07 @ 4:00PM|#
I agree with Jake, I don't remember the press supporting the war. They struggled with Bush's assertions about WMD and terrorist connections, but you have to remember the constant pounding these people take from right wing organizations for ever questioning a Republican President. Heck, years after we found out the WMD and connections were bogus Hannity et al were (and are) STILL saying the "MSN" are attacking Bush on the war sheerly out of liberal bias!
|7.17.07 @ 4:06PM|#
Urkobold, You Fool! The Lobster Girl And Her Ilk Are Responsible! While We, The American People, Should Have Been Paying Attention To Weapons Inspector Reports And Cost-Benefit Analyses, We Were Distracted By Pictures Of Scantily-Clad Magnamammous Women.
|7.17.07 @ 4:18PM|#
""""but you have to remember the constant pounding these people
take from right wing organizations for ever questioning a
Republican President."""
Despite what peoples personal beliefs of Joe Wilson, they guy
basically determined that the claim of a forged document was false.
Look how he was treated.
Hannity et al, couldn't and still can't accept that the forged
document was wrong, because Joe Wilson said so. But I can see the
Bush admin arguement, "hey, just because it was forged doesn't mean
it lacked integrity!"
|7.17.07 @ 5:48PM|#
I tend to blame the U.S. populace. We went through a retarded
phase that lasted through November of 2004 at the least. And no,
there was absolutely no reason for this to last as long as it did
except for the fact that we all seem to think its okay to act like
children (look daddy has a flightsuit on! yummy freedom
fries!).
I'll grant about three months of post-9/11 ducktape madness, but no
more. I'm tired of hearing that we should have gotten a longer
dispensation to behave irrationally.
|7.17.07 @ 5:53PM|#
Despite what peoples personal beliefs of Joe Wilson, they
guy basically determined that the claim of a forged document was
false. Look how he was treated.
I can recall the former Chief American Weapons Inspector being
called a child molester after he appeared on teevee and called
bullshit on the WMD fraud. Seriously, a child molester.
Tim|7.17.07 @ 6:04PM|#
A big problem with today's media is their inability to call bullshit on the lies put forth through Republican talking points. After years of right-wingers shouting at 'liberal media bias,' the press gives equal creedence to right-wing propaganda regardless of the merits of their statements. That's where Jon Stewart fills the void. Couple this shift with the discipline with which Republicans and their pundits repeat the mantra of the day, and you have the American public believing that Iraq was responsible for 911 and that Valerie Plame was not a covert agent.
|7.17.07 @ 7:38PM|#
I can recall the former Chief American Weapons Inspector
being called a child molester after he appeared on teevee and
called bullshit on the WMD fraud. Seriously, a child
molester.
Well, that one is actually sort of true. He was caught chatting up
sexually what he thought was a 14 year old girl but ended up being
an FBI agent.
|7.17.07 @ 8:27PM|#
"Couple this shift with the discipline with which Republicans
and their pundits repeat the mantra of the day"
Tim, I agree that conservatives repeat talking points, almost
always friendly to the GOP not only in ideology but in strategy
(focusing on what the GOP wants to focus on at the time), in what
must be a concerted fashion. I will say though that the media is
partly to blame for this themselves. They were such leftist saps,
especially on social issues (affirmative action, busing, abortion,
immigration) that many joe-sixpacks were sick of them and primed
for the "liberal MSN" narrative the movement conservatives started
selling. I'm not sure if cleaning their own house would have helped
or only slowed it, but it should have been done all the same.
I read a recent study that examined the content of two
"conservative" editorial pages (Washington Times and WSJ) and two
"liberal" ones (I think WP and NYT) during a period in both the
Clinton and Bush reigns. The conservative papers had like one
negative editorial about Bush while the "liberal" papers had a slew
of negative ones on Clinton. The "liberal" biases of some outlets
is hardly the concerted effort of their right wing counter
parts.
Conservatives are on much more sure grounds if by media they mean
"Hollywood." TV and movies are almost invariably very, very to the
left.
|7.17.07 @ 8:33PM|#
It usually takes about 5 seconds on the blogosphere for someone
to challenge you for a cite, so
http://www.ksg.harvard.edu/shorenstein//research_publications/papers/research_papers/R25.pdf
|7.17.07 @ 10:05PM|#
Mr Nice Guy,
One possible explanation for that is that liberals had many policy
differences with Clinton (welfare reform, for example) while
conservatives haven't had such differences with Bush yet. (Well,
maybe immigration, but that probably hadn't reared its head during
the study you mention)
|7.17.07 @ 11:18PM|#
The way the Iraq War played out in the media had much to do with
the emotions surrounding the 9/11 Attacks. 40% of Americans still
think Saddam was involved, although there is no evidence. Even
among the other 60%, there is the idea that we are fighting one
homogeneous enemy, and that by invading Iraq, we were striking back
at the same camp which was responsible for 9/11. This instinctive,
emotional view of the situation largely precluded rational debate,
either in Congress or the Media. If you supported the War on
Terror, you had to support the Prez on Iraq.
After Pearl Harbor, President Roosevelt had the good sense to
understand that Germany was a far more dangerous foe than Japan,
and he planned accordingly.
Today, we have an unintelligent Texas cowboy trying to direct a war
which requires a careful mixture of strategic planning, political
saavy, and coordinated intelligence.
Instead, his conduct has weakened our position and made us more
vulnerable.
Rick H.|7.17.07 @ 11:30PM|#
...while conservatives haven't had such differences with
Bush yet.
If true, that's exhibit A against 'em. This petulant, spoiled-rich,
dull-witted cunt, who's rigged us all with decades' worth of debt
and massive gov't expansion, has become the modern standard of
"conservatism!" Wow.
GILMORE|7.17.07 @ 11:53PM|#
in essense, citizen critics blame journalists for not "telling
us the right thing to think!"
"Right Thinking" Journalism is propaganda. The complaint has little
to do with war and a lot to do with honest journalism, which should
not pass judgement but let consumers do the thinking about the
nature of the facts and what they should lead us to conclude.
The "we report. you decide" slogan is in fact a noble and accurate
one... if only they (Fox) made even the slightest pretence of
upholding that ideal. I dont blame journalists, activist or
otherwise... or do I blame academics, or pundits, or NGO-public
policy experts. I blame everyone else for not thinking hard enough
about the costs and risks of war.
It reminds me of my friends in college who watched MTV and
Sportscenter all day, and would go, 'jesus, this is all such
bullshit'. Every now and then I'd look up from my book and go,
"then turn it off asshole".
S.A. Miller|7.18.07 @ 3:59AM|#
I can recall the former Chief American Weapons Inspector
being called a child molester after he appeared on teevee and
called bullshit on the WMD fraud. Seriously, a child
molester.
Old
arrest could silence Iraq arms expert
The arrest occurred in June 2001 in the Albany suburb of Colonie, after Ritter allegedly arranged to meet with someone he thought was a 16-year-old girl he'd met in an Internet chat room. The person was actually an undercover police officer.
Ritter was arrested for attempted child endangerment, a class B misdemeanor
The guy was arrested trying to pick up underage girls in a fucking
Burger King parking lot. Some how he got the charges dropped, but
that doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Oh yeah, and then there was the $400,000 Ritter got from an Iraqi,
who himself got it from the corrupt U.N. Oil-for-Food program, to
make a pro-Sadaam documentary.
|7.18.07 @ 10:43AM|#
If reviewers had done THEIR job when 'Roger & Me' was released there would be no Michael Moore.
|7.19.07 @ 11:58AM|#
Psst, hey, S.A. Miller: Ritter was right. There were no WMDs. You might have missed that story.
|7.19.07 @ 12:00PM|#
The So-Called Liberal Media is largely staffed by people who
lean to the left, and believe that they have a responsibility to be
as fair, objective, and truthful as possible, without regard to
party or personality.
The conservative media is largely staffed by people who lean to the
right, and believe that they have a responsibility to argue
vociferously in favor of the Republican Party, George W. Bush, and
conservative ideology in general.
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