New at Reason

July 13, 2007

Henry Payne daydreams about how MPG standards will be for your car (and for the economy).

Comments

|7.13.07 @ 8:21AM|#

Why anyone would buy an "American" car nowadays is beyond me. It's not like Toyota is still shipping their cars from mainland Japan...

Brando|7.13.07 @ 8:51AM|#

Why anyone would eliminate a product from consideration because of the fact that it's made by an ostensibly American company is beyond me. The Big 3 really have improved the desirability and quality of their product but some people can't seem to see that because of past failures.

Without trashing one auto company or another does any reason reader here think that CAFE standards are the way to go? Obesity's a problem too perhaps we should have the same kind of thing for food at restaurants. You have to have a Corporate Average Calorie Count so if 10 people order the fettuccine alfredo, you've got to offset that by making more people buy salads.

|7.13.07 @ 8:58AM|#

Why anyone would buy an "American" car nowadays is beyond me. It's not like Toyota is still shipping their cars from mainland Japan...
It would seem as though the "buy American" crowd are the ones keeping the big 3 afloat. Up until this point my family has bought almost exclusively GM cars (and exclusively GM when new, because we get some ridiculous discount for my Grandfather having been an employee). I just bought a used Volkswagon Golf 7 or 8 months ago and I can tell you I've never driven a car with this many miles on it that still drove like it was new. I thought engines went to shit and got really loud at about 70,000 miles, and that cars in general only lasted about 120,000... wrong! It's just the pieces of shit American car companies continue to push on us, knowing that if they go bankrupt, the government will help them out.

|7.13.07 @ 9:01AM|#

Henry Payne- shilling for Big Shitbox.

|7.13.07 @ 9:07AM|#

Shortly after the "Malibu" nameplate was resurrected by Chevrolet, when I was working on a project in Florida, I rented one which had about twenty thousand miles on it (from a major rental company- one which actually does routine maintenance). What a decrepit piece of shit- the thing was falling apart, barely ran, and sounded awful. If Detroit makes a good car, I do not know what it is.

|7.13.07 @ 9:09AM|#

I think Brando is secretly a "Big 3" executive...

|7.13.07 @ 9:10AM|#

CAFE standards are nothing but dead weight on the economy. Once upon a time housewives (ancestors to soccer moms) drove station wagons. But station wagons are "cars" and got lousy mileage. So they had to go. Now we have SUVs which get even crappier mileage, but they're "trucks" so it's OK.

But as much as I'd like to, I can't blame the Feds for Detroit's woes. Up until the mid 70's there were no foreign cars on American roads to speak of. But when OPEC cut off the oil, Detroit had no answer and let Germany and Japan take a big bite out of their market.

They didn't learn a blessed thing from that. They're in exactly the same position now. They've been making high-proffit trucks and sport cars, which is fine. But when the price of gas shot up, they had no answer.

|7.13.07 @ 9:22AM|#

I think they've tried to "recreate" themselves so many times that people stop paying attention to their efforts. "THIS year Fords are going to be better.... NO WAIT! THIS year!......"

|7.13.07 @ 9:22AM|#

"I think Brando is secretly a "Big 3" executive..."

Well, it's not something you'd brag about.

Fluffy|7.13.07 @ 9:24AM|#

I would prefer a much steeper gas tax to minimum MPG standards. I realize that's not politically palatable to some people because there are people who would pay the tax and not care, and "that's not fair". I also would support a federal vehicle registration requirement with a massive fee hit to register a vehicle below a certain MPG.

I don't consider this a liberty issue or a property rights issue because the vehicles in question are going to operate on roads owned by the public, and because operators of these vehicles [i.e. all of us] are allowed to pollute commonly-owned air and create a noisy disturbance without their abutters [all of us again] having any recourse.

jimmydageek|7.13.07 @ 9:28AM|#

P Brooks | July 13, 2007, 9:07am | #

Shortly after the "Malibu" nameplate was resurrected by Chevrolet, when I was working on a project in Florida, I rented one which had about twenty thousand miles on it (from a major rental company- one which actually does routine maintenance). What a decrepit piece of shit- the thing was falling apart, barely ran, and sounded awful. If Detroit makes a good car, I do not know what it is.

Reminds me of my '78 Malibu! Although, mine took a crap in 1999...before that, it was a sweet looking and running car :)

ed|7.13.07 @ 9:29AM|#

Holy shit, Fluffy!
Or should I say Comrade Stalin?

|7.13.07 @ 9:30AM|#

I'm a Honda man, myself, and I've observed one interesting thing about Hondas. If something works, they'll generally leave it alone across models until something really drives them to make a change. In that case, the change is tested, etc. before it is implemented.

With American cars, the tendency seems to be to make changes all the time, just for the sake of change. If you want my totally uninformed opinion, I think that the difference is that the engineers run Honda and Toyota, the marketing people run the American car companies.

Over the last twenty years, I've owned two cars--both Honda Accords. Other than a little A/C trouble and routine maintenance, I've had very little work to do on either car. I can trust them to work. If the next car makes it a trifecta, I'm confident that it'll last 200,000 miles, too.

As for mandating technical standards, I'm always opposed to that. As usual, the government jumps in when there are already tremendous economic pressures (i.e., high gas prices) that should do the job for them. Why do they do that? So people can claim that the government gave us more fuel efficient cars. That's bull.

|7.13.07 @ 9:31AM|#

I think gas taxes are a good proxy for a user fee (better than government mileage mandates) I also would be willing to see an annual fee based on vehicle weight and engine displacement.

jimmydageek|7.13.07 @ 9:56AM|#

I would propose a cushy tax-credit for people who commute to work via bicycle :) That would help cut down on vehicle traffic and some of the obesity problems...and it would help my pockets at tax time :)

Implementation and oversight would obviously pose a problem (making sure people are actually riding their bikes...bike registrations, built in odometers, etc...). But I do think it would be a nice incentive for people to eschew their vehicles.

Brando|7.13.07 @ 10:07AM|#

I'm not a big 3 executive but I do work in the auto parts business so maybe I think a little differently about things. And no, I don't support the big 3 because they need more repair parts. I don't support the big 3 at all. I've just noticed some significant changes over the last few years that people tend to ignore because of poor quality product in the past. I can tell you that the most recent iteration of the Malibu, despite some anecdotal issues, requires fewer service parts per vehicle on the road than almost every car including most popular Japanese models.

I'm kind of torn on cars and mileage. I see part of what Fluffy is saying about commonly owned air. CAFE standards are just plain silly. The only way to really do anything about using less fuel is simulate scarcity in a nice and predictable way before things actually become scarce. The only way to simulate scarcity is to increase the price but increasing taxes just isn't palatable to me personally. I don't want to see another huge source of revenue going towards an inefficient and intrusive bureaucracy.

|7.13.07 @ 10:24AM|#

One big problem with GM is it has way too many brand names. They will use one care platform, and market it across four brand names, even when its just the same car with different trim.

You really only need three brand names, and Toyota does this well. Theres Scion (budget), Toyota (middle), and Lexus (luxury).

|7.13.07 @ 10:26AM|#

"Implementation and oversight would obviously pose a problem...."

Not once we've installed the gps chip in your neck.

|7.13.07 @ 10:27AM|#

I'll buy and drive an Accord Hybrid if the government exempts me from the income tax and from all gas taxes. And allows me to opt out of social security.

What? It's for the environment!

By the way, my dad was telling about a time he met a Toyota engineer who had been involved in the development of the first Lexus cars. The goal--not actually realized, to be sure--was to make cars that could last, with routine maintenance and normal wear and tear, for one million miles. Wonder how many American cars are manufactured with that kind of mind set?

VM|7.13.07 @ 10:38AM|#

"...one million miles..."

*imagines a Japanese-style Dr. Evil posing in Toyota HQ

|7.13.07 @ 10:44AM|#

One big problem with GM is it has way too many brand names. They will use one care platform, and market it across four brand names, even when its just the same car with different trim.

Agreed. ALso, Ford should just ditch the Mercury brand altogether. There is almost no marketing potential left there.
I would like to see GM drop Pontiac as a #1 priority. They're not really sports cars, and they just reek of direct competition for the Dodge brand, whose new cars will all look outdated in 2 years.
I like the new line of Saturns, and think that is their best shot.
Chrysler, btw, should just do us all a favor and drop off the face of the planet.

|7.13.07 @ 11:37AM|#

Reinmoose-

If I were CEO of GM tomorrow I would get rid of everything except Chevy and Cadillac. Thats all thats needed.

LarryA|7.13.07 @ 11:41AM|#

I think gas taxes are a good proxy for a user fee (better than government mileage mandates) I also would be willing to see an annual fee based on vehicle weight and engine displacement.

So your attorney can drive his Beemer cheap, but the guy who does your landscaping pays through the nose for his pickup?

Not everyone can get along with a little car.

|7.13.07 @ 11:42AM|#

If I were CEO of GM tomorrow, I'd jump out of the plane with my $100 million golden parachute. Wheeeeeeeeeeee!

|7.13.07 @ 11:53AM|#

If I were CEO of GM tomorrow, I'd jump out of the plane with my $100 million golden parachute. Wheeeeeeeeeeee!
Thats an even better idea.

D.A. Ridgely|7.13.07 @ 11:59AM|#

Chrysler, btw, should just do us all a favor and drop off the face of the planet.

Hey, I like the Chrysler 300. And if Al Capone were alive today, that's the car he'd drive. (You can get three, maybe four bodies in the trunk!)

MattXIV|7.13.07 @ 12:05PM|#

Brando has a point. The newer big 3 cars are clearly superior to the crapmobiles they were cranking out in the previous decade. My gf's ('03 I think) Cavalier is a world of improvement over my old Tempo ('90). It's still doesn't seem to equal the Japanese designs for reliability, but it hasn't 1) repeatedly busted a water pump and overheated before I could get it off the highway 2) leaked out the AC cooling cycle gas after being recharged in under a month (take that ozone layer!) 3) gotten the window stuck open when the power windows failed (the locks were hit and miss too) 4) done a paint-mixer imitation when going at or below the speed limit, like a certain Tempo did, all below the current milage of the Cavalier. Nowadays, there actually are reasons to by American cars beyond misguided patriotism and a desire to spend more time with your mechanic.

Japanese-style Dr. Evil|7.13.07 @ 12:10PM|#

...one mirrorion mires...

Lava|7.13.07 @ 12:18PM|#

Chrysler, btw, should just do us all a favor and drop off the face of the planet.

Hey, I like the Chrysler 300. And if Al Capone were alive today, that's the car he'd drive. (You can get three, maybe four bodies in the trunk!)

Chrysler Cars usually look for the lack of better word Very American .. i,e Big,Bold ..If only they could get some toyota quality in them

|7.13.07 @ 12:21PM|#

"Not everyone can get along with a little car."

This is true, but the "guy who does my landscaping" can look at it as a cost of doing business.

|7.13.07 @ 12:27PM|#

I recant my previous slurs regarding the American Auto. I urge you all to turn off your computers and go to your local Chrysler dealer right now and buy a vehicle; something with a high profit margin, like a Cummins-engined Dodge dually pickup truck.

*The fact that I am a Chrysler shareholder is merely an amusing coincidence. Chryslers are really great cars, honest. You need one.

Scooby|7.13.07 @ 12:37PM|#

I'm a Toyota loyalist, but the Dodge/ Chrysler products I've rented since the Germans bought them have been pretty solid.

Of course, every Chrysler product that friends have owned were plagued by so many electrical gremlins (that won't necessary show up in a one week rental) that about half were bought back under Texas's weak ass lemon law (gotta have the same identical problem 3 times in a year to have the car bought back). Kinda hard to trust them now- especially since the Germans have sold out.

|7.13.07 @ 12:40PM|#

Taktix® said

Why anyone would buy an "American" car nowadays is beyond me. It's not like Toyota is still shipping their cars from mainland Japan...

Lots of people buy American vehicles because until recently japan did not produce full sized pickups and heavy duty trucks that lots of Americans like to drive. Furthermore many businesses bought full sized pickups and heavy duty trucks because they were the only vehicles fit for purpose.

CAFE put a double financial crimp on Detroit because it forced them to compete against the Japanese in small, fuel efficient vehicles. This was a no win, money losing game for Detroit but they had to produce these cars to keep their fleet mileage down to comply with CAFE.

|7.13.07 @ 12:56PM|#

Let't be clear now. The fundamental difference between a Ford manufactured in Mexico and a Toyota manufactured in the US is the engineers that designed the car and the managers that run the business.

The Big 3 "US" auto companies have failed miserably in both of those categories.

violent_k|7.13.07 @ 1:28PM|#

Interesting article here.

|7.13.07 @ 3:21PM|#

like a Cummins-engined Dodge dually pickup truck.

There is at least one Cummins powered Dodge pickup with a million miles on it.

|7.13.07 @ 6:15PM|#

I predict that auto safet will improve after the CAFE increase goes into effect, just as it has improved after previous increases in fuel mileage standards.

Perhaps moreso, as the large SUVs which caused the decades-long trend of increased automobile safety to level off in the 1990s will become less common.

Urkobold™|7.13.07 @ 6:25PM|#

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG! NO COOKIE FOR JOE.

IN FACT, THE NEXT TREND WILL BE SUPER-SIZED VEHICLES BEYOND HUMAN EXPERIENCE. THINK CANYONERO, BUT BIGGER. "DEFY THE TERRORISTS--USE MORE GAS" WILL BE THE SLOGAN.

D.A. Ridgely|7.13.07 @ 8:55PM|#

URKOBOLD, are you suggesting that whoever leaves the biggest carbon footprint wins?

Scooby|7.14.07 @ 10:56AM|#

I won't deign to speak for the Great Urkobold, but maybe he knows that the Middle East will only be of minimal importance or threat after all of the oil is gone. If we do it right, global warming will cause sea levels to rise, swamping the couple of Gulf states that aren't spending all of their oil wealth on the government equivalent of hookers and blow. After the oil is gone, we can wall off the region and ignore it.

It is therefore our patriotic duty to accellerate the process of depleting Middle Eastern petroleum reserves. If you're not driving a CANYONERO, you hate America!

|7.14.07 @ 3:32PM|#

*dashes away, rubbing his taint in grateful relief that the URKOBOLD saw fit to mete out such a light punishment*