New at Reason

June 13, 2007

Radley Balko looks at the contradictions of Argentina.

Comments

|6.13.07 @ 12:25PM|#

The 3-1 peso-dollar exchange makes it one of the better bargains in the world. A world-class meal in a city like Buenos Aires (or Mendoza, or Bariloche) with an appetizer, desert and a premium bottle of wine will run at most $30 or so per person.

While that's a good price. I've eaten first rate meals for less in the past year.

Ashish George|6.13.07 @ 12:48PM|#

Ronald Reagan, hero of freedom that he was, supported the military dictatorship.

|6.13.07 @ 12:55PM|#

While BA is indeed a fabulous city, much like Paris it suffers from it's own population.

Argentines are the snootiest most stuck up people in S. America.

And they hate EVERYONE, but the closer a country is to their border, the more they hate them.

|6.13.07 @ 1:05PM|#

"While that's a good price. I've eaten first rate meals for less in the past year."

Including a bottle of wine?

|6.13.07 @ 1:16PM|#

$30 a person in BA is a lot. That's like $200 or $300 in NY. I lived in BA for a month in December and January and a good steak, better than anything you can get in the US to be honest, should run you less than $10.

pdog|6.13.07 @ 2:38PM|#

Like so much of latin america, it is a beautiful and rich land that has a terrible, violent and unstable past that spans all the way to the colonial times. A latino myself, I hope someday for a liberal revolution in latin america.

|6.13.07 @ 3:35PM|#

I was fascinated to read that Argentina has a west coast. I've lived in Chile for more than 11 years, and have been to Argentina many times, but I have never seen it. Where, exactly, is it? What does one call the body of water that kisses Argentina's fair, west coast? 16 million Chileans would like to know.

|6.13.07 @ 3:58PM|#

Perhpas, the west "coast" was carelessly referring to the western border. I don't have a map, but at the southern tip, not in Patagonia, there might be what could be said was a little west coast.

Remember Bailey's piece on water earlier
http://www.reason.com/news/show/34992.html
could have some mention while Balko is there.

Argentina was also among the top ten richest countries as late as WWII, and if government and citizenry were up to it, would be at least the equal of Canada today. Argentina seems to have some 'victim' qualities, blaming others, thus not having to deal with their own part in things. Jesse Helms said once that Argentia could put the US midwest out of business.

Have a steak for me in the land of canivores.
Me, I'm at home eating my heart out.

miche|6.13.07 @ 4:14PM|#

$30 a person in BA is a lot. That's like $200 or $300 in NY. I lived in BA for a month in December and January and a good steak, better than anything you can get in the US to be honest, should run you less than $10.

Agreed. We spend a lot of time there and the food is one of our favorite things. There's a little cafe down the street from the Alvear Palace Hotel where you can get a decent cut of meat, a sandwich and a bottle of Malbec for about $14.

I don't know what groceries cost, but I went to a grocery to buy booze and got a bottle of champagne, bottle of wine, bottle of vodka, 2 large bottles of lemonade, 2 large bottles of water and six cans of beer for $24. (This family can do a number on the wallet at minibar prices.)

|6.13.07 @ 4:26PM|#

Thank you all for digressing from the 'how much a steak should cost' argument.

I have had significant contact with Argentina and Argentinians in the past month. I spent two and a half weeks in Chile and Argentina, followed by two weeks in México D.F. for a Sustainability workshop, which was comprised of 20% Argentinians. I am a complete novice to Argentinian history aside from the Peróns, so this piece was very interesting to me.

I disagree with Davebo's comments: Argentinians in general are not snooty at home or abroad. And I also know they have a very good relationship with Uruguay, which directly borders Argentina (i.e., not much hate there).

It is interesting that Radley notes the people are friendly even to an American who knows little Spanish. I happen to speak Spanish, but agree all should be welcome. This makes the United States' effort to establish English as the national language laughable. It is quite clear businesses who offer multi-lingual service get more business; this is not a problem for the feds to decide. For example, Latin American visitors are quite pleased with the availability of Spanish signs in New York City's public transportation system.

I have Argentinian friends who have kids and know on who is divorced, so I am eager to validate those two points from the article.

I, too witnessed the enigmatic Argentinian pro-government sentiment. During a presentation on the fragmented nature of México City's public transportation system, federal consolidation was toted as the solution. I rebutted that if the process were indeed more efficient (i.e., profitable), private industry would fill that need. It turns out the current state of affairs is due to a corrupt permint allocation system managed by the Mexican government. An Argentinian from Buenos Aires disagreed with me and lauded the Arg. gov't for making the public transportation system in BA successfully available.

This is the essence of the problem for introducing pro-market sentiments around the world. People see government spending projects as totally beneficial, and never recognize the buried costs and inefficiencies that are so inherent. What to do?!

To echo Radley's closing sentiments: But what a beautiful country and people!

|6.13.07 @ 6:02PM|#

mediageek,

I guess I fudged a little there. It includes a half bottle of wine, but no dessert, just coffee.

fyodor|6.14.07 @ 11:11AM|#

My friend who moved there reports a lot looser laws and attitudes on everyday freedoms, such as where you can drink, leash laws, firecrackers, seat belts, smoking in bars, furniture on the porch, etc. Wish Radley had said something about that!

danielle|6.15.07 @ 9:38AM|#

Disclosure: I have lived in Buenos Aires for 8 months and worked in the law dept of a Workers Compensation insurance company there.

Its worth noting that some of the looser laws in Argentina, such as the aforementioned leash laws, have disastrous results. The sidewalks in Buenos Aires are littered with dog remains and it makes a gorgeous city truly unpleasant at times. On a more serious note, the lax traffic laws make riding in a cab or driving your own car a frightening and horrific experience. Porteno drivers weave, have an extremely loose idea of what constitutes a "lane" and drive FAST. As a result there are horrible accidents all the time there--really gruesome stuff.

Additionally I might add my agreement with the Argentine (or at least Porteno) view of government intervention discussed above. As an example, la UBA (University of Buenos Aires) is "free," though a disaster. There is no heating in the winter, it is stifling in the summer, students litter the floors due to a lack of seating, and there is a general lack of amentities that makes the learning experience a bit more daunting. As a result, there are often--VERY often--student strikes demanding better amenities. But while the students blame the Argentine government and the UBA administration, and demand better amenities, they completely dismiss the idea of any degree of privatization for UBA, which could alleviate some of the financial burdens of the "free" university.

The disastrous legal system in Argentina, which is more secretive, corrupt, and uncertain than that of the United States, contributes significantly to the state of the economy. When companies have no reliable legal models or precedent to look to, it is difficult to do business effectively.

Note: a good meal with plenty of wine in BsAs costs about 20 USD at a restaurant. At a parilla, you can get delicious choripan (sausage and bread) for 2 pesos, and wine for 3 pesos a glass.

|6.15.07 @ 5:11PM|#

I think that FDR almost made the USA into Argentina. FDR and Perone where much alike policy wise.

|6.17.07 @ 6:51AM|#

I have lived in Argentina for 2 years, and can attest first hand to the snooty snobby factor. It is a trait that will haunt them and restrict the from development as long as they maintain this attitude. Sad but true

|6.18.07 @ 8:09PM|#

The statement that "U.S. meddling here (the military junta was supported by the CIA) has soured Argentines to U.S. economic policy" needs some comment. First, the Argentine military involved itself in governing and in coups well before the founding of the CIA. Second, Argentine military presidents were often anti-US. Third President Carter was very outspoken against human rights abuses of the junta, and the junta considered THAT to be "U.S. meddling." Fourth, many South Americans will cry CIA at the drop of a hat.

As evidence that resorting to coups was an act deeply embedded in Argentine politics, consider the case of Jacobo Timerman, an Argentine journalist. The Videla junta had kidnapped and tortured Timerman for raising human rights concerns. Ironically, Timerman had initially supported the coup that deposed Isabel Peron. Colonel Peron, first member of a junta in 1943, and subsequently elected president three times and also deposed in a coup in 1955, further shows the military involvement in Argentine governing. President Peron harbored Nazi war criminals, not exactly a pro-American action. The Argentine military traditionally viewed the US as a geopolitical rival for dominance in South America.

When I was working in Argentina during the Videla junta, I met some Argentines who denounced the US to me for interfering in Argentine affairs, referring to Carter's denouncing of human rights abuses. At the same time, this was done in a friendly manner. "The US is interfering in Argentine affairs. Let's have a beer." Other Argentines informed me they supported Carter's initiative on human rights. I got a variety of unsolicited opinions on Argentine politics.

Reagan took a more laissez-faire attitude towards the junta. At the same time, the gross human rights abuses of the junta had mostly stopped by the time Reagan took office. Reagan's support of Great Britain in the Falklands War helped topple the junta.

Many South Americans have CIA on the brain. I have been accused of being a member of the CIA. I met an American who had been in the Peace Corps in Colombia with the same experience. He told me that after he smoked marijuana with some locals, the locals informed him that they had previously suspected him of being CIA. All those who accuse the CIA of responsibility for the coup that toppled Allende, conveniently forget that three weeks before the coup, the Chilean House of Deputies passed a resolution 81-47 that among other things, basically asked the armed forces to have a coup.

If you hear that Argentines are angry at the US for alleged CIA support of a military dictatorship, accept their emotions of anger. They are angry. But be skeptical, very skeptical about the thinking that follows their anger.