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Should State Executioners Be I.D.'ed?
From an AP report:
Most of the 37 death penalty states shield execution team members' identities. Last month, Missouri lawmakers approved a bill that would allow members of execution teams to sue anyone - including news organizations - who discloses their identities. It hasn't been signed into law.
[Richard] Dieter, [head of the Death Penalty Information Center], said he believes protecting the identity of executioners helps anesthetize the public to what takes place in the death chamber.
Dieter's group, along with the ACLU, also thinks many incompetents are involved in lethal injection:
Death penalty opponents say Newton's May 24 lethal injection was the latest in a series of botched executions nationwide, and that executioners' identities and professional credentials should be open to public scrutiny.
They point to the case of Dr. Alan Doerhoff, a participant in Missouri executions who was revealed in news reports to have been sued for malpractice more than 20 times. The state is no longer using his services.
They also point to the December execution of Florida inmate Angel Diaz, who took 34 minutes - twice as long as usual - to die. Executioners administered a rare second dose of lethal chemicals to Diaz, and an autopsy found the needles had been pushed through Diaz's veins into the flesh of his arms.
Critics of both groups argue that they're really trying to ban the death penalty by other means: "They're setting up this Catch-22, saying only a doctor can do that, and knowing the doctor's association won't let them do it."
Death penalty cases have a way of going wrong, that's for sure. Jacob Sullum muses on the death penalty and lethal injection here.
ktc2|6.5.07 @ 8:16AM|#
Wish I could still scoff at these things and make snarky
comments about how they deserve not mercy.
I can't now. I've seen the "justice" system's workings too many
times now. Too many false convictions, too much planted evidence,
too many prosecurtors who actually do consider it a "badge of
honor" to have convicted an innocent.
|6.5.07 @ 8:28AM|#
I assume that what the DPIC really wants is to file suit against
every executioner to make the job not worth the expense. They do
have a point with the notion of weeding out incompetent
executioners, but maybe exemptions could be made in cases where the
execution was deemed unacceptable.
Does anybody know what happens now in cases where the executioner
makes a "malpractice"level mistake?
SugarFree|6.5.07 @ 8:33AM|#
I don't trust the state to take a life (banishment fan),
but...
They point to the case of Dr. Alan Doerhoff, a participant in
Missouri executions who was revealed in news reports to have been
sued for malpractice more than 20 times.
Isn't a doctor with a long malpractice track record exactly what
prison execution personnel are looking for? Are they really looking
at hiring a doctor who excels at keeping patients alive? And do
they need a doctor to hit a vein? I'm damn near a hospital groupie
I'm there so much and I've never had an MD even look at the crook
of my arm, much less inject anything into it. (Or place an IV or
draw blood.) They like feeling and measuring my neck, though...
thoreau|6.5.07 @ 8:53AM|#
SugarFree-
I see your point, but an execution, like anything else, can be
botched. A doctor with a record of malpractice is a person with a
record of botching things that he was paid to do.
I wouldn't hire that doctor to do, well, anything.
Jack|6.5.07 @ 9:10AM|#
The FBI really should have faked Dr. Kevorkian's death in his
cell then put him to work streamlining the lethal injection process
in exchange for his freedom
Wait, wasn't that the plot of la femme nikita? And like six hacker
movies? Crap
|6.5.07 @ 9:16AM|#
Consider yourself fortunate, SugarFree. A 19 year old Navy corpsman can do a better job finding a vein than an MD.
|6.5.07 @ 9:17AM|#
I am pretty seriously anti-death penalty but not for reasons
like so-called "botched" executions nor concern for the suffering
of the prisoner. If the guy dies the execution is not botched. I
simply do not believe the state has the right to take a life as a
form of punishment. I reserve the right to change my opinion the
minute it is expedient to do so.
As for the general public becoming inured to the realty of the
death penalty that is a mendacious argument. Capital punishment is
exceedingly rare, and just as importantly I would suggest that the
public is far more anesthetized to the malevolence of the crimes
that result in the death penalty than to the disposition of the
ultimate sentence. The choices made by those who will ultimately be
put down by execution leave me no room for sympathy for their
circumstances. But I see no reason to identify the executioners.
They are not killers they are agents of the state. If Missouri
still needs a guy I think Fred Leuchter is
available.
SugarFree|6.5.07 @ 9:23AM|#
thoreau,
I know, I know. Mostly just engaging in gruesome humor. It's the
weird dueling desires we have as a culture about the death penalty
that I was mostly commenting on. "Look, we're going to strap you to
this rack and pump you full of poison, but everything will be OK
because this nice doctor's going to do it." WTF?
From the sword to the ax to the noose to the guillotine to the
firing squad to the electric chair to the gas chamber to lethal
injection we keep sanitizing the process and hoping to cause the
prisoners less pain, but the underlying fact still remains: when
it's over, you are dead. That's the brutal part; everything else is
just a means to an end.
Hell, I'm not even saying that some people don't deserve death for
their crimes, but if the state is going to kill someone on my
behalf, then let's at least keep the absurdity of it to a
minimum.
SugarFree|6.5.07 @ 9:33AM|#
joe,
I have a lot of blood drawn. I've seen so many phlebotomists over
the years, I could write a Consumer Reports rating guide.
If people trained to do it, who do it all day, are, in general,
that incompetent at it, I shudder to think how bad an MD could
screw it up. About 80% of the time, two different techs dig around
in my arm awhile before getting enough blood. Every time they do
that I end up with 2" deep black bruises on my arm. I go to work
looking like the last 20 minutes of Sid and Nancy.
|6.5.07 @ 9:38AM|#
Why don't they just go back to death by firing squad? You really can't mess that up. Five .30 caliber rounds simultaniously to the chest is about as painless of a death as I can imagine.
|6.5.07 @ 9:41AM|#
It seems to me that we should offer a buffet of death choices. I
mean, the guy's going to die, regardless, so why not let him select
the means of his death? Within reason, of course. I have visions of
requests for death by old age, death by alien invasion, and, of
course, death by Pythonian topless women.
What would be good, not unusually cruel, and cost-effective means
of execution? I suppose death by stampeding horses is out.
I oppose the death penalty myself, but we might as well do it up
right if we're going to do it.
|6.5.07 @ 9:43AM|#
Firing squads often screw up, and miss the vital parts. That's
why that method was phased out.l
Even hardened combat veterans get shaky when they're snuffing out a
bound prisoner like that.
|6.5.07 @ 9:48AM|#
Pro,
Many states used to give the condemed a choice between options like
hanging, firing squad or electric chair. It is pretty well
established that the electric chair is a very painful death.
Hanging can be painless, but it is an art and very easy to screw
up, as seen in the Saddam Hussein execution. Apparently, lethel
injection is easier to screw up than previously thought. I am
telling you, firing squad is the best way to do it humanly.
|6.5.07 @ 9:49AM|#
Maybe so, Joe. I can see where it would take never. Of course you could replace the squad with rifles fixed with some kind of triggering mechanism. Then you just push a button.
|6.5.07 @ 9:59AM|#
This is another job which could be farmed out to the Chinese; I
believe their preferred (and highly effective) method is a bullet
to the head from close range, rather than the more cinematic firing
squad from a distance.
But the question remains: Why? Why is it necessary for the
government to be in the revenge-murder business at all?
|6.5.07 @ 10:01AM|#
VM,
Precisely.
If America were historically cool, it would allow the condemned to
fight to the death on stage before the entire nation. If the
condemned were to win, then his sentence would be commuted to life
in prison. Unfortunately, America is not historically cool. Which
is why we lack a moon base and flying cars.
Jack|6.5.07 @ 10:09AM|#
The French revolution ruined Dr. Guillotin's baby for us, just like Hitler killed the Charlie Chaplin mustache
|6.5.07 @ 10:16AM|#
VM,
Indeed!
Also, as I've pointed out in this forum before, the 13th
Amendment exempts convicts, so slavery is a possible
alternative to death, too.
|6.5.07 @ 10:25AM|#
"Why is it necessary for the government to be in the
revenge-murder business at all?"
Originally, the state took over revenge-killing from the deceased's
kin, so as to interrupt feuds before they got started. That's also
why the cases are called "the People of Whatever vs. John Smith"
rather than "John Brown's Family vs. John Smith."
|6.5.07 @ 10:31AM|#
"Originally, the state took over revenge-killing from the
deceased's kin, so as to interrupt feuds before they got
started."
Fucking statists.
VM|6.5.07 @ 10:37AM|#
Wasn't it PJ O'Rourke who came up with the best argument against
the DP:
that it's run by the same idiots who run the post office, and the
post office can't even get the mail delivery right. And it's got
our address on it, n stuff.
Henry Louis|6.5.07 @ 10:41AM|#
I would suggest that the public is far more anesthetized to
the malevolence of the crimes that result in the death
penalty
I would suggest the public is far more anesthetized to the
incompetence of the justice system in convicting innocent people
and trumping up the charges on those arrested so it can improve its
batting average. Not to mention the extreme sentences handed down
to non-violent criminals.
Fact is, the public wants blood far more than it wants justice and
competence. The state provides that blood and in return the public
doesn't get their hands dirty. The only problem with this
arrangement is the monopolistic pricing.
SugarFree|6.5.07 @ 10:43AM|#
mrspeabody,
I'm moderately fat and have a thick neck. Every doctor is convinced
I have sleep
apnea but I have none of the symptoms and I've never complained
about it to them. I think I may be a medical mystery.
Tonight, on FOX. House and his team scramble to solve
the shocking case of the fat guy who breathes normally in his
sleep. After this patient, NOTHING WILL EVER BE THE
SAME!
|6.5.07 @ 10:47AM|#
"Originally, the state took over revenge-killing from the
deceased's kin, so as to interrupt feuds before they got
started."
Fucking statists."
There are places on earth where blood feuds still go on. They are
generally hell holes. The state has to step in and give people a
sense of justice. If you don't, the people act for themselves and
you end up with blood feuds and outright carnage. Where the state
fails, inevitably society will act.
Death By Unga Bunga 2000|6.5.07 @ 10:50AM|#
I'm not exactly in the capital punishment camp, though I can
certainly accept it for government employees.
What I don't get is the fetishism of protocol. The death punishment
should be done in the exact same manner as the original death that
caused the punishment in the first place. The only time there
should be a choice is when it's a multiple murder.
Fluffy|6.5.07 @ 11:00AM|#
The death penalty debate is very interesting and all, but I
think the debate about the executioners' identities is important as
well.
On what basis would the state prevent a private individual from
promulgating information they independently obtain?
As far as I am aware, individual state governments don't have the
privelege of declaring state secrets. In addition, the federal
government's primary power to punish the release of classified
information seems to be directed at federal employees who release
information they acquire in the course of doing their job. They
don't seem to have much ability at all to punish a private
individual who happens to learn something the government might wish
to keep secret.
If I independently determine the identity of an executioner, how do
they expect to stop me from telling others about it?
|6.5.07 @ 11:08AM|#
If I independently determine the identity of an executioner, how do they expect to stop me from telling others about it?
Fluffy,
By killing you.
|6.5.07 @ 11:23AM|#
Wasn't it PJ O'Rourke who came up with the best argument
against the DP:
that it's run by the same idiots who run the post office, and the
post office can't even get the mail delivery right. And it's got
our address on it, n stuff.
Wouldn't this argument apply as well to the army and the police? It
seems like you need to be a full-bore anarchist to sincerely
believe that if goverment fails to do one thing well, that proves
it can't do anything at all.
|6.5.07 @ 11:26AM|#
Surely the marketplace could find somebody who thinks it's cool to kill people and not get arrested.
lunchstealer|6.5.07 @ 11:35AM|#
That Femputer, she's just got snu snu on the brain. The other day we asked her how to tell if a turkey was done roasting and she said "MEASURE THE INTERNAL TEMPERATURE OF THE THIGH, WHICH IS GOING TO TAKE LONGEST TO COOK, BY SNU SNU!"
Mike Laursen|6.5.07 @ 11:43AM|#
The FBI really should have faked Dr. Kevorkian's death in
his cell then put him to work streamlining the lethal injection
process in exchange for his freedom
Didn't Kevorkian just perform the same euthanasia procedure that
veternarians do every day?
|6.5.07 @ 11:47AM|#
"Surely the marketplace could find somebody who thinks it's cool
to kill people and not get arrested."
Remember the stories about hordes of people who volunteered to be
on the Gary Gilmore execution party?
|6.5.07 @ 11:50AM|#
As good a time as any to talk about it...
"Back in the day" (pre-Bill of Rights) weren't the bad guys "hanged
by the neck until dead"?
So when the Bill of Rights talks about "cruel and unusual
punishment", they aren't talking about hanging. Maybe, just maybe,
the Founding Fathers were talking about Life in Prison.
CB
Disclaimer: I believe in the Death Penalty. I DON'T believe in Life
in Prison. Life in Prison IS cruel and unusual. If a member of a
civilized society can't be rehabilitated in, say, 5 years, then
they no longer have a right to remain in that society. No sentence
should exceed that rehabilitation period, whatever it is. And if
another crime is committed AFTER that rehabilitation period, then
society no longer has a need for that individual.
|6.5.07 @ 11:57AM|#
I am against the death penalty and all... not that I don't feel
that there are plenty of people who deserve to die - but death
isn't reverseable if it turns out the person is innocent... and
guilt is not usually a factor in convictions (the example from Pen
& Tellers Bullshit was of the guy who was on death row for 7
years, for a murder that was commited WHEN THE GUY WAS IN ALREADY
IN PRISON, AND COULDN'T HAVE POSSIBLE COMMITED THE CRIME!!! The
prosecuters had evidence that 100% proved the guy was innocent, yet
continued to fight to have the guy executed for 7 years). Also, I
am sure where the death penalty is legal, people like joe and Dan T
want to use it to stop transfats or something, so it is only a
matter of time before it will be used on me.
However, I hate lawsuits like this one. If you are going to oppose
the death penalty, simply oppose the death penalty. But don't
engage in petty harrasment like this, it just makes the
anti-death-penalty crowd look dumb.
|6.5.07 @ 12:01PM|#
Disclaimer: I believe in the Death Penalty. I DON'T believe
in Life in Prison. Life in Prison IS cruel and unusual. If a member
of a civilized society can't be rehabilitated in, say, 5 years,
then they no longer have a right to remain in that society. No
sentence should exceed that rehabilitation period, whatever it is.
And if another crime is committed AFTER that rehabilitation period,
then society no longer has a need for that individual.
What happens in the case, like I mentioned above, when the person
sentenced to death had 100% proof of their innocence. The guy I
mentioned took 7 years to have their conviction thrown out, despite
having absolute undeniable proof of his innocence (and the
prosecutor had that evidence the guy was innocent BEFORE the guy
even went on trial). You support putting innocent people like him
to death?
|6.5.07 @ 12:12PM|#
"I am telling you, firing squad is the best way to do it
humanly."
WTF?
There are lots of less painful or traumatic ways to kill someone.
Hell, dropping the proverbial 20 ton weight on their head while
they sleep would be more humane than shooting them. Or the plastic
explosive helmet. The way to make it less cruel is to destroy the
brain utterly and instantly.
The state, however, shouldn't be in the business of killing
people.
|6.5.07 @ 12:14PM|#
StartTrite
That is a different problem, and should be dealt with
appropriately. By the way, in your case (in my world), the guy
wouldn't have been in jail for 7 years anyway. Remember, whatever
it was he did, if he wasn't sentenced to death at the first trial,
he would have been out in 5 (or less), fully rehabilitated.
Now, about "bad prosecutors". Obviously, to get my "5 and out or
die" implemented, there would have to be a lot of changes. Perhaps
if the District Attorneys weren't spending so much time prosecuting
"consensual criminals" (ie. drug cases) then perhaps they'd have
more time to do a thorough and competent job on the crimes
involving violence to others.
CB
|6.5.07 @ 12:22PM|#
"STARTRITE"
Uh... should be "Start being trite" and then "Rex Rhino - I didn't
say there wouldn't be problems" and then it was supposed to say
"End being trite".
Ich spreche nicht HTML
Sorry.
CB
|6.5.07 @ 12:24PM|#
Neu Mejican: I'm anti-death penalty, but what does "humane" mean in your opinion? It sounds to me like "less pain" is your version of humane. My definition of humane includes compassion and sympathy for others. Compassion and sympathy don't always mean less pain. Many times, "dying like a man" means something to these people.
|6.5.07 @ 12:50PM|#
Lamar,
Sure, good point. And the real pain of the execution comes from the
time sitting in your cell waiting for it. I was responding to the
idea that the 5 bullets to the chest was quick and painless.
My idea of humane would be to treat prisoners with respect even
when they are deserving of their confinement. To provide
educational opportunities and other mechanisms that can help them
turn themselves into the kind of person worthy of release. If they
don't take those opportunities, respectful confinement might be a
life sentence. If they do, a reasoned parole process can allow them
to demonstrate their rehabilitation.
Jennifer|6.5.07 @ 12:58PM|#
I have no philosophical objection to the death penalty for murderers, but I am opposed to keeping the identities of executioners a secret. If you don't want people to know what job you do, then don't take the job.
|6.5.07 @ 1:04PM|#
ktc2
Glib, yes. Snide, certainly. Snarky...heaven forfend
btw...try to get that knot out of your panties before you go out
today.
|6.5.07 @ 1:59PM|#
"Tonight, on FOX. House and his team scramble to solve the
shocking case of the fat guy who breathes normally in his sleep.
After this patient, NOTHING WILL EVER BE THE SAME!"
Followed by a very special episode of Whose Line.
Daddy, do you really kill people for a living?
|6.5.07 @ 5:45PM|#
Ron Hardin,
I'm really amazed that firing squads are NOT used for executions
anymore. Cheap, quick, effective, and very difficult to screw
up.
The only reason I can think of is that lethal injection is an
easier sell to the bleeding hearts out there; it's just like
putting your dog to sleep, whereas a firing squad involves men with
guns.
|6.5.07 @ 5:50PM|#
Jennifer,
The main reason the names are kept secret is to keep the executed's
family and "associates" from seeking revenge.
|6.5.07 @ 9:35PM|#
Kinda like how many of us here post under pseudonyms of various levels of effectiveness.
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