Reason Magazine
- reason.com
- reason.tv
- reason.org
- Donate
- Site Search:
Reason on Facebook
Reason on Twitter
Reason on YouTube
Reason RSSGet Reason E-mail Updates!
Manage your Reason e-mail list subscriptionsadvertisements
This Week in Botched Police Raids
Another isolated incident in Hendersonville, North Carolina:
Sandra Braswell said the officers threw two smoke grenades into her house at 208 N. Oak St. around 1:30 a.m. Saturday while her 16-year-old grandson and six of his friends were having a party on the back porch.
She said the officers, with guns drawn, told the teenagers to get on the floor. When some of the teenagers tried to run, the officers forced them to the ground and pinned their hands behind their backs.
“They didn't show no warrant,” she said on Monday. “They didn’t have no warrant for this house. They made me lay in the floor, though. I couldn’t say nothing, with my hands up in the air and all these kids in here on the floor. One of the kids laying across form me, cop got a gun pointed to his head.”
Braswell said the officers made her and her 11-year-old granddaughter get on the floor in the living room. When her granddaughter tried to get up to find her 7-year-old sister, Braswell said an officer told her to get back down on the floor.
Braswell said they were forced to lie on the ground for 10 minutes before the officers got a call realizing their mistake.
A disabled man was forced out of his bed and made to walk naked in front of officers during a bungled police raid at his home.
Steven Way has told of his humiliation after seven officers smashed their way through his front door in the mistaken belief that a drug dealer lived there. They demanded the sleeping Mr Way get out of bed and the 50-year-old, who suffers with a degenerative bone disease, had to walk naked in front of the officers, some of them female, to get his dressing gown.
On a lighter note...
|5.15.07 @ 1:27PM|#
Radley's got a bit of a fetish for these kinds of reports, but
some context would be nice.
For example, what percentage of police raids end with innocent
people killed or in some way traumatized? There must be thousands
of such police raids going on daily across the country and so I
wonder if the handful of mistakes we see reported on here is really
outside the acceptable margin of error?
Jennifer|5.15.07 @ 1:28PM|#
That was one of the better trolling comments I've seen recently. Well done, Dan!
squarooticus|5.15.07 @ 1:30PM|#
Dan:
I wonder if you'd feel the same way if you were involved in a
non-fatal incident within the "acceptable margin of error".
Jennifer|5.15.07 @ 1:30PM|#
Wait, let me try one of my own: Radley, your fetish about Cory Maye's being on death row would be nice with some context. For example, what percentage of people on death row are actually innocent? There must be thousands of such prisoners across the country and so I wonder if mistakes like the Maye case are really outside the acceptable margin of error?
Radley Balko|5.15.07 @ 1:34PM|#
What percentage of violent intrusions into innocent people's
private homes for the purpose of enforcing nonviolent crimes
would be an acceptable margin for error, Dan?
If these raids were aimed at rounding up dangerous fugitives,
stopping hostage-takings, or ending school shootings, you'd have a
point about a tolerable margin for error.
But we're talking about violent police tactics aimed at preventing
people from getting high.
Jennifer|5.15.07 @ 1:34PM|#
Yo! Jacob Sullum! Your fetish about guys like Dr. Horwitz being sent to prison for "overprescribing" pain medication would be better with some context. There must be thousands of doctors who prescribe pain medication without going to jail for it, so I wonder if the handful of overzealous prosecutions like Horwitz's is really outside the acceptable margin of error?
|5.15.07 @ 1:36PM|#
Dan T.,
What, to you, would be an "acceptable margin of error?" If that
margin of error includes you or beloved members of your family
getting traumatized or killed, is it ok then? As Mr. Balko has
demonstrated in several posts now, the procedures that are calling
for these violent raids are too open to abuse and inevitably lead
to tragedy.
fyodor|5.15.07 @ 1:44PM|#
When some of the teenagers tried to run, the officers forced
them to the ground and pinned their hands behind their
backs.
I'm just glad they didn't get shot.
Dan T., if Radley's point is that police are uniformly incompetent,
your point would have merit. Whatever merits those less wise than
us (tongue's in cheek there, in case that's not obvious!) see in
fighting the Drug War, it may behoove us all to know about some of
casualties. Dan T.'s comment reminds me of what conservatives say
when atrocities are revealed to have been commmitted by our
military: "That's war, what do you expect?" As a response to those
on the far left who think such atrocities reveal the inherent evil
of our Western capitalist society, the retort has merit; to anyone
who simply wants to know what is going on and the full cost of
going to war, it clearly does not.
Chucklehead|5.15.07 @ 1:45PM|#
There must be thousands of such police raids going on daily
across the country...
Does anyone else get the sense that Dan T. actually relishes the
thought of thousands of police raids on a daily basis?
|5.15.07 @ 1:48PM|#
Hey, that looks like fun. Let me try.
Sure, that Lacrosse Team was unfairly persecuted by an out of
control prosecutor, but some context would be nice.
For example, what percentage of parties thrown by collegiate
athletes end with a stripper telling conflicting stories about
being raped and an over eager prosecutor not caring that innocent
people willed in some way be traumatized?
There must be thousands of such parties with jocks and strippers
going on daily across the country and so I wonder if the handful of
mistakes we see reported on here is really outside the acceptable
margin of error?
noname|5.15.07 @ 1:49PM|#
The word "botched" could be left out of the headline since these
things now seem to be typical.
It is just standard operating procedures, without
consequences
Just.... "This Week in Police Raids."
|5.15.07 @ 1:52PM|#
What percentage of violent intrusions into innocent people's
private homes for the purpose of enforcing nonviolent crimes would
be an acceptable margin for error, Dan?
I don't know exactly what is considered the acceptable margin of
error for police raids. I'm asking you to tell me, since you're
reporting this stuff.
But if we're going to do any sort of aggressive policing, there
does exist a margin of error that we're going to have to live
with.
Jennifer|5.15.07 @ 2:11PM|#
Does anyone else get the sense that Dan T. actually relishes
the thought of thousands of police raids on a daily
basis?
No, he relishes the thought of getting a rise out of people by
asking provocative (by which I mean stupid) questions. Remember:
this is the same guy who said Kerry Howley would change her mind
about libertarianism once she had a baby.
|5.15.07 @ 2:21PM|#
But if we're going to do any sort of aggressive
policing
WHOA! Careful there Dan, you almost tripped over a real
thought.
|5.15.07 @ 2:23PM|#
But if we're going to do any sort of aggressive policing,
there does exist a margin of error that we're going to have to live
with.
Exactly! Dan T.
It's not policing that is bad, it is this notion of aggressive
policing that is the cause of civil rights violations to law
abiding citizens who get their doors busted in, suffer screaming
verbal abuse, and have guns pointed at their heads.
But I'm sure that Dan T believes the ends justify the means. You
can't make omelettes without breaking a few eggs.
Urkobold®|5.15.07 @ 2:26PM|#
URKOBOLD IS WITH DAN T. ON THIS ONE--CAN'T MAKE AN OMELET WITHOUT KILLING SOME INNOCENT OLD LADIES.
|5.15.07 @ 2:28PM|#
Exactly! Dan T.
It's not policing that is bad, it is this notion of aggressive
policing that is the cause of civil rights violations to law
abiding citizens who get their doors busted in, suffer screaming
verbal abuse, and have guns pointed at their heads.
But I'm sure that Dan T believes the ends justify the means. You
can't make omelettes without breaking a few eggs.
It's true that we could police less aggressively, but that would
mean an increase in crime. So you have to pick your poison, or at
the very least find a balance you can live with.
|5.15.07 @ 2:33PM|#
One death is a tragedy, but a million deaths are a statistic --
Stalin
Dan. T please explain how you can justify the death of a single
innocent citizen in the ongoing effort to prevent a segment of the
population from engaging in non-violent crime (e.g., the use of
non-theraputic, recreational drugs).
There is no margin of error when it comes to the state killing
innocent citizens. Period. Got that. Period.
Bagger|5.15.07 @ 2:42PM|#
"It's true that we could police less aggressively, but that
would mean an increase in crime. So you have to pick your poison,
or at the very least find a balance you can live with."
Not all crime is committed by criminals, Dan. Some "crime" is legal
and state sanctioned.
|5.15.07 @ 2:46PM|#
Dan T,
You seem to forget that abusing innocent people and busting down
their doors is a crime in itself even if it is the police
committing the crime.
We have three choices.
1. Accept the status quo, i.e. do nothing, ignore the
problem.
2. Change the law, end the drug prohibition, removing the rationale
for this aggressive policing.
3. Change the law to state that anything a cop does is lawful.
Dave W.|5.15.07 @ 2:51PM|#
For example, what percentage of police raids end with
innocent people killed or in some way traumatized? There must be
thousands of such police raids going on daily across the country
and so I wonder if the handful of mistakes we see reported on here
is really outside the acceptable margin of error?
If they kept government records on this, then we would not have to
wonder about it here. Go, Radley!
Bagger|5.15.07 @ 2:51PM|#
Waiting for Dan to respond with a ridiculous post about the semantics of the word "crime", ie, if it's not against the law, then by definition it's not a crime...
Viking Moose (more Viking than|5.15.07 @ 2:52PM|#
mmmmm. Old Lady Omelets.
Baked Alaskan with Lady Fingers for dessert.
mmmm.
*finds Dan T. Blow Up Doll. (Noam is soiled at present)
BATIN! GO 'WAY!
Dave W.|5.15.07 @ 2:54PM|#
I don't know exactly what is considered the acceptable
margin of error for police raids. I'm asking you to tell me, since
you're reporting this stuff.
And the margin, whatever it is with respect to drug raids, should
be somewhat smaller than the margin killed from marijuana and
cocaine overdoses.
|5.15.07 @ 2:54PM|#
Dan T,
You seem to forget that abusing innocent people and busting down
their doors is a crime in itself even if it is the police
committing the crime.
I'm not forgetting that at all, I'm just pointing out that
sometimes in the course of bringing legitimate criminals to
justice, the wrong doors will be smashed and the wrong people
arrested.
It sucks, but police work is like that. What I'm merely asking
Radley for is a little more context as to determine if botched
raids are a real problem. Simply letting us know that they happen
from time to time doesn't tell us that.
|5.15.07 @ 2:56PM|#
There is no margin of error when it comes to the state
killing innocent citizens. Period. Got that. Period.
Fine, but in that case you'll probably need to get rid of the
police force altogther. Which I'm pretty sure would not turn out as
well as you'd like to think.
VM|5.15.07 @ 2:57PM|#
Comment just to form a sandwich with DW and DT.
mmmmm. Batshit sandwich.
mmmmmmm
[keed keed!]
Bagger|5.15.07 @ 2:59PM|#
"Dan'll come to his senses as soon as he has a baby."
Dan procreating and spreading his genes... :shudders:
Jennifer|5.15.07 @ 3:06PM|#
I'm just pointing out that sometimes in the course of
bringing legitimate criminals to justice, the wrong doors will be
smashed and the wrong people arrested.
Radley already pointed out the difference between SWAT teams
handling hostage situations versus SWAT teams preventing people
from getting high. Did the bridge you're under knock out your wi-fi
when he wrote that?
|5.15.07 @ 3:11PM|#
I've not seen too many cases of SWAT teams being employed to
prevent casual drug use. Aren't they mostly used to arrest dealers
and distributers?
You know, the kind of guys who might not go to jail peaceably.
Dave W.|5.15.07 @ 3:13PM|#
I've not seen too many cases of SWAT teams being employed to
prevent casual drug use. Aren't they mostly used to arrest dealers
and distributers?
another thing we should not have to guess about.
|5.15.07 @ 3:13PM|#
I'm not forgetting that at all, I'm just pointing out that
sometimes in the course of bringing legitimate criminals to
justice, the wrong doors will be smashed and the wrong people
arrested.
We are not talking about raids to capture violent criminals for
whom arrest warrants have been issued (meaning probable cause has
been established). These are raids against homes where non-violent
crimes are suspected of being committed, where those suspicions are
based upon higly-tainted intelligence.
Fine, but in that case you'll probably need to get rid of the
police force altogther. Which I'm pretty sure would not turn out as
well as you'd like to think.
Dan. T either you are being spiteful or you really are as dumb as
you appear some days.
Eliminating full-combat police raids to arrest people suspected of
non-violent crime does not in any way negate the need for a police
force to protect the populace from violent crime.
|5.15.07 @ 3:14PM|#
"but that would mean an increase in crime."
OH NOES the stoner down the block might get stoned FIVE nights a
week instead of FOUR
PLEASE SAVE ME MR GOVERNMENT MAN
|5.15.07 @ 3:15PM|#
I've not seen too many cases of SWAT teams being employed to
prevent casual drug use. Aren't they mostly used to arrest dealers
and distributers?
Bullshit, you have commented on many threads here at H&R
regarding exactly this topic.
|5.15.07 @ 3:39PM|#
...where those suspicions are based upon higly-tainted
intelligence.
Batshit crazy taint I tell ya.
Jennifer|5.15.07 @ 3:41PM|#
you have commented on many threads here at H&R regarding
exactly this topic.
His troll-fu is weakening. Urkobold is sucking out his energies
like some psychic troll vampire.
|5.15.07 @ 4:02PM|#
What, to you, would be an "acceptable margin of
error?"
I say no more than ten to twenty million killed, tops. Uh,
depending on the breaks.
|5.15.07 @ 4:05PM|#
What, to you, would be an "acceptable margin of
error?"
I say no more than ten to twenty million killed, tops. Uh,
depending on the breaks.
[quote marks messed up my handle the first time]
|5.15.07 @ 4:41PM|#
Hey, all I'm asking is for Radley to give use some figures as to
how many police raids are successful in their objective compared to
the ones where innocent people are victimized via police mistakes
or corruption.
As much as he's researched this sort of thing I'm surprised that he
does not seem to know.
Jennifer|5.15.07 @ 4:45PM|#
all I'm asking is for Radley to give use some figures as to
how many police raids are successful in their objective compared to
the ones where innocent people are victimized
0f course you are, dear. We believe you. There there.
thoreau|5.15.07 @ 4:53PM|#
I say we bring Guy Montag into this thread with Dave and Dan and then we crash the server!
Radley Balko|5.15.07 @ 5:07PM|#
Dan T.
It's impossible to know because police refuse to keep track of such
things.
If you'll read Overkill, you'll see that one of my
recommendations is that warrants be tracked from the time they're
applied for through their execution (no pun intended), including if
they were served on the wrong residence.
But police departments across the country have been reluctant to
embrace the idea when others have suggested it. Just like they
refuse to keep track of the number of people shot by police
officers.
So 'til then, we're reduced to guessing how often this tough
happens, based on common sense, news reports, lawsuits, and
context.
Anonymo the Anonymous|5.15.07 @ 5:13PM|#
Dan T. has a fetish for saying retarded shit even he can't believe just for the sake of negating whatever perfectly reasonable point was just made. What percentage of HnR posts going unanswered by your bullshit would be within the acceptable margin of unfettered intelligent discourse?
|5.15.07 @ 6:39PM|#
Let me tell you a story. When I was younger and lived on the
wrong side of the tracks I got home from work on a sunny afternoon
and noticed a funny looking bread van parked 2 houses down with
armed men(helmets,shotguns ,and assault rifles) wandering around
the neighborhood. Kids were riding bicycles up and down the
sidewalk. It was a strange scene to come home to. My wife was home
at the time of the raid (again 2 houses down in the middle of
summer in a urban enviroment) the windows were open and she heard
men yelling and the door being broken. The Swat team didn't say
anything to me when I pulled into my parking spot literally 20'
away from the breadvan.
The neighbors they had raided were 18-20 year olds who by the grace
of God weren't home at the time. And come to find out the fugitive/
terrorist/drug dealer/ cock fighter they were looking for had not
lived at that address in over 6 months. I do wonder how many times
a day this scenario happens?
|5.16.07 @ 11:08AM|#
I think the most important point to make is that ALL of these raids are the direct consequences of the decision to 'deal' with drugs by making them illegal, rather than having regulated sales. If we chose the other model whereby drugs could be obtained legally, there would be no illegal sales of drugs, so no need for the police to break doors down. This would obviously stop all such bungled raids.
|5.16.07 @ 12:04PM|#
Face it today there is no such thing as actual investigating
going on by the police. They get a tip regardless of the source and
they over react immediately not bothering to check out the info
themselves with say some survailence.
Masterchief- A few years ago I got a call at 2 in the morning from
the police saying they were @ my door to open up. So I went to the
door and low and behold no one was there. So they call back and I
tell them ummmmm YOUR not outside MY door and ask them exactly
which door they are @ and where. Then they tell me the address of
the house I rented a few years earlier. Come to find out they were
looking for someone that lived in that house 2 tenants before I
even got there. They were at the house but never bothered to check
to see if someone else had moved in over all those years. So the
they check when they don't get an answer and find my phone number
for that address and call as thought the guy was still there this
many years later. Some real Dick Tracies let me tell ya. So they
call back a 3rd time demanding we come out and I tell them go ahead
and kick the door down if you want in so bad and hung up. I called
the department the next day to bitch about them bothering me all
night with their bad info and asked why they thought the guy they
wanted was still there when the name on the phone was changed years
before. Needless to say they had no excuse besides the obvious one,
their own stupidity.
Of course the cops don't keep stats on their fuck ups they would
need a full time statistician on staff to handle those kinds of
numbers. Plus you don't actually expect them to be held accountable
to anyone when they are the LAW do you? They have stats for
everything else but oddly enough not themselves. Even if they did
keep stats from past experience what are the odds they would be
accurate and true? Anyone that would kill a woman and plant drugs
is not likely to concerned about fibbing about some stats.
Dan T - NO AMOUNT is close enough a margin for error when its
innocent peoples lives being lost for something so stupid and
obviously pointless as the WoD.
|5.16.07 @ 1:55PM|#
I just want to say, this is my first time on this site and
reading these comments really brightened my day. You are some
seriously witty folks.
I want to add to the stories here a part of my own that was
recently resolved in court, resulting in two years of probation
(thankfully - it could have been 15 years in prison.). Sparing
details, I was arrested for possession of MDMA when I pulled up on
a raid of a house and was told to stop my car in the middle of the
street and questioned and eventually searched. In all of the police
reports, however, the police (all of them SWAT officers) wrote that
I stopped my car in the middle of the street, without reason. This
is untrue, but due to the fact that their actions during these
raids goes completely undocumented save by the officers themselves,
I could not raise an argument for myself, as of course it's their
word against mine.
dave|5.16.07 @ 8:25PM|#
I've not seen too many cases of SWAT teams being employed to
prevent casual drug use. Aren't they mostly used to arrest dealers
and distributers?
You know, the kind of guys who might not go to jail
peaceably.
How about casual gambling? I'm sure Dr. Sal Culosi has something to
say on the topic.
Site comments/questions:
Media Inquiries and Reprint Permissions:
(310) 367-6109
Editorial & Production Offices:
3415 S. Sepulveda Blvd.
Suite 400
Los Angeles, CA 90034
(310) 391-2245