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The New Jersey Six
The Wash Times has an account of the six New Jersey residents who have been arrested for allegedly planning to attack Fort Dix in the southern part of the Garden State:
The men were identified in court papers as Mohamad Ibrahim Shnewer, 22, of Cherry Hill, a U.S. citizen born in Jordan and employed as a cabdriver in Philadelphia; Serdar Tatar, 23, of Philadelphia, born in Turkey and legally residing in the U.S. who worked at a 7-Eleven convenience store in Philadelphia and as a deliveryman at his father's pizzeria: and Agron Abdullahu, 24, of Buena Vista, N.J., an ethnic Albanian born in the former Yugoslavia who is legally residing in the U.S. and works at a Shop-Rite Supermarket.
Also identified were three brothers, Eljvir Duka, 23, Dritan Duka, 28, and Shain Duka, 26, all of Cherry Hill, who are ethnic Albanians born in the former Yugoslavia who reside illegally in the U.S. and operate Colonial Roofing and National Roofing.
The crew has been under FBI surveillance since January 2006, when one of them brought a DVD to Kinko's for copying. Said DVD showed the six shooting guns and shouting Islamic slogans; the clerk alerted the authorities. The six were arrested after they tried to buy automatic and semi-automatic weapons from an undercover agent.
More details here. Assuming the charges pan out (they don't always), this seems like a good instance of police work.
The cable coverage I've seen so far has been stressing the "illegal immigrant" angle--though I've yet to read an account of how the Duka boys actually got into the country. Given their country of origin, it seems unlikely they snuck across the Mexican border (the scenario that anti-immigration folks frequently trot out).
Dave W.|5.9.07 @ 8:48AM|#
ooops, I guess the fully automatic ones (assuming they really were) would have been illegal. thank goodness for that I guess.
db|5.9.07 @ 8:55AM|#
Dave W.:
They tried to buy fully automatic weapons from an
undercover agent posing as someone who could get them. I haven't
read anything that said they actually had automatic weapons.
And, no, "fully automatic" does not necessarily mean "illegal."
db|5.9.07 @ 8:57AM|#
In New Jersey the FA weapons would have been illegal. It's almost certain that any semi-automatic weapons they had would have been illegal in New Jersey as well.
Guy Montag|5.9.07 @ 8:57AM|#
Affidavit here.
The cable coverage I've seen so far has been stressing the
"illegal immigrant" angle--though I've yet to read an account of
how the Duka boys actually got into the country. Given their
country of origin, it seems unlikely they snuck across the Mexican
border (the scenario that anti-immigration folks frequently trot
out).
What? You mean they are complaining about illegal immigrants
commiting crimes in the USA even though they are NOT Mexican? Oh
the humanity!
Does this 'racism' know no bounds or is the actual issue that some
people are against illegal immigration no matter what the race or
origin of the illegal? You know, folks like me.
Maybe, some day, we will see the term illegal immigrant in
reason without quotes around it.
Looks like they never got their undocumented guns and
ammunition.
Dave W.|5.9.07 @ 8:58AM|#
And, no, "fully automatic" does not necessarily mean
"illegal."
But if the guns weren't illegal, then how could the authorities
have protected Fort Dix in this case? That is why one would hope
that the guns were illegal here, I think.
|5.9.07 @ 9:01AM|#
What kind of crappy terrorist organization can't swing 40 bucks for their own DVD burner?
Jennifer|5.9.07 @ 9:02AM|#
Not trying to be snarky here, but this is the first time I can recall hearing of a bunch of guys who wanted to go on a shooting rampage where their intended victims might have a chance of actually fighting back. (I make this comment on the assumption that Fort Dix is NOT a "gun-free zone.")
thoreau|5.9.07 @ 9:02AM|#
If terrorists tried to attack New Jersey, how could we even tell
whether they succeeded?
And would anybody care if they did succeed?
|5.9.07 @ 9:03AM|#
Dave W.:
For a purchase of a fully automatic rifle to be 'legal', the buyer
would have to obtain a Class III License from the Bureau of
Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms & Explosives. This involves a
lengthy background check, numerous expenses, etc. I think the local
chief law enforcement officer also has to approve. I do not know if
one can be a resident alien and pass the check, but almost
certainly once it was discovered that they were illegal aliens, the
request for the Class III License would've been denied.
(This is going off of memory; apologies for any errors in the
above. Consult your own counsel for legal advice, etc.)
db|5.9.07 @ 9:03AM|#
Dave W.:
Which guns are you talking about? They ones they were videotaped
firing or the ones they tried to buy?
The posession of guns wasn't the issue that got them caught. It was
the videotape of them shooting them and shouting slogans that
raised the eyebrows of the first informant.
Guy Montag|5.9.07 @ 9:03AM|#
Page 19 of
the affidavit notes that they did not want the M-60 (a belt-fed
machine gun) or the RPG. Page 18 has the list of what was
"available".
One of them notes that he did not want the machine guns because he
has kids and does not want to be thought of as a terrorist, or
something.
db|5.9.07 @ 9:04AM|#
jkp:
You're wrong about the "Class III License." A Class III SOT is only
required to deal in such firearms.
Dave W.|5.9.07 @ 9:14AM|#
Which guns are you talking about?
Whichever ones form the basis of the indictment. I mean, you can't
be arrested just for shooting legal guns and shouting stuff, after
all.
|5.9.07 @ 9:17AM|#
Nick calls this "good police work", yet he ignores the fact that
no (true) crime has taken place. These guys have simply engaged in
their natural rights to a)bear arms, b)make videos, and c)talk and
think about committing a crime.
Why is he not calling for their immediate release? Where's Radley
when you need him?
Guy Montag|5.9.07 @ 9:19AM|#
Um, why don't we all go back and read the only source document
(linked to above) that some of these 'journalists' are making
up writing their stories from, rather than reading stories
that most 'journalists' are just re-writing off of each other (like
several of you guys are doing right here)?
|5.9.07 @ 9:23AM|#
Damaged Justice has it. Of course, any smart terrorist would have practiced landing as well as taking off, and we missed that in '01, so maybe they're just cocky.
|5.9.07 @ 9:28AM|#
Random musings:
1) Chalk one up for the "law enforcement/intelligence" model,
rather than the military model, of counter-terrorism. The fact that
the FBI succeeding in protecting the military from a terror attack
should probably make this one count twice.
1a) As part of the "law enforcement model," the feds kept the wanna
bes under surveillance for a year and a half after discovering
them, in order to make sure the whole gang was rounded up and to
allow the feds to gather more intel by seeing who they were meeting
with and what they were talking about. Immediately after 9/11, the
S.O.P. was immediate interdiction to disrupt ongoing plots, a
strategy more suited to warfighting than law enforcement and
intelligence. It's good that the FBI is being allowed to use the
tactics it has perfected against other shadowy networks over the
decades, like the mafia.
2) We seem to require a new version of flypaper to deploy in Iraq.
We're supposed to be fighting them in Najaf so we don't have to
fight them in New Jersey, doncha know.
3) Looks like some self-starters, rather than the Al Qaeda sleeper
cells we keep being told are all over the place.
4) An Army base. The target they chose was an Army base. Not a
grade school. Not an office building. Yes, Virginia, the Iraq War
is inspiring terrorism.
Brian|5.9.07 @ 9:29AM|#
I agree with Guy. I don't even trust the story from the Moonie paper Nick noted.
|5.9.07 @ 9:30AM|#
Jen,
Don't be surprised if the Army base is a gun free zone. Even here
in Iraq, while on base soldiers have to have their weapons
unloaded.
That is why some Iranian terrorists were able to kidnap four
soldiers and kill various others when they were able to trick their
way on a base.
|5.9.07 @ 9:34AM|#
From what I can tell, law enforcement has evidence of the
planning of a crime and evidence that the group took positive steps
in furtherance of the crime. I believe there's a name for
that.
joe,
The what inspired the WTC and the Pentagon? Yeah, Iraq isn't
helping things, but I don't think we can talk about carts and
horses much. A better argument might be to leave the Middle East
alone entirely, but it's probably too late for that. Come on, Mr.
Fusion!
However, I agree with you about the FBI, which has a history of
being inept whenever possible. It's been apparent that intelligence
and law enforcement have been too willing to rely on electronic
surveillance and not on actual fieldwork for quite some time. This
is a good sign that maybe the FBI, at least, is learning the
lesson.
|5.9.07 @ 9:37AM|#
Pro Lib,
"The Iraq War inspires terrorism" does not equal "The Iraq War
inspires all terrorism."
|5.9.07 @ 9:41AM|#
About the weapons. They were looking for fully automatic rifles?
It is a good thing they didn't try to get legal semi automatic ones
then. Those are much more effective.
Joe,
The FBI model didn't work so well to stop 9/11, which somehow was
inspired before our troops were in Najaf
Dave W.|5.9.07 @ 9:41AM|#
From what I can tell, law enforcement has evidence of the
planning of a crime and evidence that the group took positive steps
in furtherance of the crime. I believe there's a name for
that.
Hype?
Nose of wax?
Easy to allege?
I mean, arranging to buy an illegal gun is pretty impressive as a
positive step. The other stuff, not so much.
Dave W.|5.9.07 @ 9:44AM|#
The FBI model didn't work so well to stop 9/11
Go easy there, kwais. You can't have a war on terrorism unless you
have some terrorism in the first place. LIHOP is model that has its
place.
|5.9.07 @ 9:44AM|#
kwais,
"Joe,
The FBI model didn't work so well to stop 9/11"
You mean the attack that happened eight months after the
Counter-terrorism Director position was demoted from cabinet level
to sub-cabinet level, and one month after the president told his
CIA briefer "OK, you've covered your ass," after his statement that
there was an attack coming? You're right, the intel/law enforcement
model didn't work very well at that time.
|5.9.07 @ 9:47AM|#
Pro Lib,
Said what I meant, but better.
I will second, that maybe to not be in the middle east at all would
have worked a lot better.
I don't see that being in Iraq is more terrorist inspiring than
containment of Iraq.
Guy Montag|5.9.07 @ 9:49AM|#
About the weapons. They were looking for fully automatic
rifles? It is a good thing they didn't try to get legal semi
automatic ones then. Those are much more effective.
The only documentation released sofar lists M-16s, AK-47s,
simi-automatic pistols and revolvers. I looked for, but did not
find, if any of the rifles were full-auto capable or not. Normally
M-16s are, unless they are very new and then they only go semi or 3
round burst.
The FBI agent on the news this AM said the suspects were presented
with non-functional weapons and were arrested during the purchase.
IIRC, if the rifles were presented as full-auto and the would-be
purchaser attempts to buy them that is one of those crimes prefaced
by "attempted".
Note: USA Today (I am sure others too) is saying that purchasing
AK-47s is illegal. They need to qualify that a bit, because you can
buy semi-auto AK-47s all day in most of the USA.
Russ 2000|5.9.07 @ 9:52AM|#
If terrorists tried to attack New Jersey, how could we even
tell whether they succeeded?
This story doesn't pass the smell test.
db|5.9.07 @ 9:54AM|#
Guy,
Legally, a three-shot burst is full auto per the NFA. Any firearm
that discharges more than one round per pull of the trigger = full
auto.
|5.9.07 @ 9:55AM|#
The crew has been under FBI surveillance since January 2006,
when one of them brought a DVD to Kinko's for copying...
The FBI probably got involved initially because they heard it was
porno...
|5.9.07 @ 9:55AM|#
kwais,
"I don't see that being in Iraq is more terrorist inspiring than
containment of Iraq."
Haven't you seen any of the reports about the increase in terrorism
worldwide since the war began?
|5.9.07 @ 9:57AM|#
Dave W,
I am not sure what you are saying. Are you going the conspiracy
theorist angle?
Joe,
11 years of warnings about the coming of 9/11, that the one dude
got demoted 8 months before is maybe the wrong move, but not as big
in comparison. 11 years of warnings from our allies in Afghanistan.
And various underlings in the FBI getting ignored.
The dude who got demoted had many a chance and many a year to do
the right thing, to take the threat seriously before he got
demoted.
Guy Montag|5.9.07 @ 9:59AM|#
Legally, a three-shot burst is full auto per the NFA. Any
firearm that discharges more than one round per pull of the trigger
= full auto.
Yes, but I was attempting to make a distinction between the old
style, magazine exhausting mode, and the stuff the new guys
have.
Guy Montag|5.9.07 @ 10:00AM|#
Semi-automatic weapons are not illegal in NJ.
Attempted purchase of a fully automatic firearm probably is illegal
there, as well as federal.
|5.9.07 @ 10:03AM|#
kwais,
"The dude who got demoted had many a chance and many a year to do
the right thing, to take the threat seriously before he got
demoted."
The dude who got demoted was Richard Clarke, who has been described
as "running around with his hair on fire" during the first nine
months of the Bush administration, trying to get them to take
seriously the threat of a terrorist attack on the United
States.
db|5.9.07 @ 10:03AM|#
rdkraus:
NJ has some of the most restrictive gun laws of any state in the
country. I am aware that some semi-automatic weapons are
legal in NJ.
Guy:
Purchase of a full-auto weapon is definitely illegal in NJ. It is
not a federal crime unless said weapon is not registered in the
National Firearms Registry Transaction Record.
Attempting to purchase or make an unregistered full auto
weapon is definitely a federal crime.
|5.9.07 @ 10:06AM|#
The cable coverage I've seen so far has been stressing the
"illegal immigrant" angle
Illegal immigration seems to be related to this case in the same
way terrorism was related to the VT shootings. I heard the
prosecutor, Christie, interviewed on Phiily radio this morning. He
said that the immigration aspect was not really important here. The
interviewer (Smerconish, who's hot for "securing our borders")
asked him how he could say such a thing. Christie said that the
perps have been in the country for a long time, having arrived long
before they began planning their terrorism. They didn't sneak in in
order to commit terrorism.
|5.9.07 @ 10:06AM|#
Joe,
I am somewhat skeptical of those reports. I am weary that they
might be similar to reports of school violence. The reports can
skyrocket without there really being any activity out of the
normal.
Also, some of the increase in terrorism activity is an increase
that is not a result of anything that we did. Osamas move to
Afghanistan from Yemen marked the increase, the attacks in Saudi
and elswhere though higher than what they were before 9/11 are
lower than what they would be if we were still trying to do
containment of Iraq.
Dave W.|5.9.07 @ 10:07AM|#
I am not sure what you are saying. Are you going the
conspiracy theorist angle?
Not exactly.
MIHOP: Conspiracy theorists.
Official Story: Jingoism.
LIHOP: The Truth.
I am something of a LIHOPPER, as you may have guessed. Those
conspiracy theorists are just plain nuts.
|5.9.07 @ 10:08AM|#
If terrorists tried to attack New Jersey, how could we even
tell whether they succeeded?
And would anybody care if they did succeed?
Oooooh, you make me so MAD!
Guy Montag|5.9.07 @ 10:09AM|#
Page 26 of the document everybody seems to be ignoring has the
purchaser stating he wanted AK-47 machine guns. On page 25 he
states that he needs to purchase from the Baltimore seller in New
Jersey because they do not have licenses.
So, we have an attempted private sale across State lines of an
automatic weapon wrapped up in just two pages.
How about you guys see what you can find?
|5.9.07 @ 10:10AM|#
So, apparently the fact that we're fighting 'em over
there isn't actually keeping them from attacking us
over here - eh?
OTOH, it sounds as though there are some branches of Law
Enforcement over here that are actually getting real results
without any hat tips to the War on Terror abroad.
Isn't that one of the primary Hawk justifications for our military
being in Iraq et al in the first place? So that people here in the
US will be safer?
Whatever...
Guy Montag|5.9.07 @ 10:13AM|#
db,
Attempting to purchase or make an unregistered full auto weapon
is definitely a federal crime.
I suspect that if I try to purchase a registered full-auto firearm,
cash and no paperwork, there is some applicable charge there.
db|5.9.07 @ 10:14AM|#
Guy:
I'm not saying that these guys didn't do anything illegal. I am
simply trying to correct imprecisions in the understanding of the
appropriate laws here.
|5.9.07 @ 10:16AM|#
Joe,
In the book "Ghost Wars" (Outstanding book btw) if I remember
correctly, he is only described as running around with his hair on
fire when his job was at risk. Before then he was much more blase,
and when he recieved information from CIA dudes who came to him and
told him stuff was going to happen.
They told him before the embassy attacks, they told him before the
USS Cole was attacked, and they told him that an attack was going
to happen on US soil.
They requested various times to take out OBL and he did not back
them up. He did wake up to the threat, and for whatever reason with
a new administration that did not trust the former, he was not
given his due.
Peter James Bond|5.9.07 @ 10:18AM|#
Actually, quite a few Albanians get here via the Mexican border...though they also come via fraud docs or the Canadian border.
|5.9.07 @ 10:19AM|#
db:
You are correct. My apologies. I found this post describing the
process in Pennsylvania:
http://www.pafoa.org/forum/nfa-class-3-title-ii-34/1882-read-first-process-acquire-make-nfa-items-pennsylvania-jaybell.html#post17543
It is still an involved process, and presumably the opportunity to
stop would-be terrorists who were trying to 'buy legal' would be
there.
|5.9.07 @ 10:23AM|#
kwais,
I'm not trying to set Clarke up as omniscient, just pointing out
that the way this administration treated the threat of terrorism
prior to 9/11 was severely lacking. The inattention given to the
problem for the first nine months of the Bush administration is not
evidence that using the practices that the FBI and CIA specialize
in are ill-suited to fighting terrorism, since those efforts were
neglected and impeded, not vigorously pursued, in the months prior
to 9/11.
db|5.9.07 @ 10:25AM|#
Guy:
Yes there would be a charge--posession of an unregistered firearm.
the firearm would not be registered to you.
Additionally, the registered owner would be guilty of selling the
firearm without paying the transfer tax. While the transferee
generally pays the tax, it is the transferor who is legally
required to pay it.
The vast majority of owners of registered full auto weapons (and I
mean like 100%) would never consider selling without the proper
paperwork. The risks are simply too high. And no one who is trying
to illegally get a full auto weapon would pay the premium prices
that registered, legal guns command.
|5.9.07 @ 10:25AM|#
Also,
If Kosovo Albanians are going to get into terrorism, shouldn't they
be hitting the Serbs? Or even other European nations?
I mean we do have a mixed to bad record in Kosovo, but it seems to
me that we are the only ones that did anything right over
there.
|5.9.07 @ 10:27AM|#
db
Which semi-automatic weapons are NOT legal in NJ? I'm no expert,
but any of the stores that sell guns will have numerous
semi-automatic pistols for sale.
You're right that NJ firearms laws are among the most restrictive.
Another good reason to get the hell out.
Dave W.|5.9.07 @ 10:28AM|#
joe:
How would you rate the performance of the agencies (eg, FBI) in the
McVeigh case?
|5.9.07 @ 10:31AM|#
Joe,
I'll agree with your 10:23 post.
And I could go on about complaints of mine of the incompetentness
of the CIA and FBI, and of the previous administration. But I don't
have time here to write a book.
All by itself, I wholly agree with your 10:23 post.
Guy Montag|5.9.07 @ 10:32AM|#
The vast majority of owners of registered full auto weapons
(and I mean like 100%) would never consider selling without the
proper paperwork. The risks are simply too high. And no one who is
trying to illegally get a full auto weapon would pay the premium
prices that registered, legal guns command.
The price quoted in the affadivit was $500 for an AK. The
never-registered illegal purchase list of charges should now be in
effect.
db|5.9.07 @ 10:34AM|#
I haven't been in a gun store in NJ, ever, but can you tell me if there are semi-automatic rifles available for sale? I was under the impression that NJ had it's own "assault weapons" ban that was particularly restrictive. I do know that semi pistols can be lawfully obtained in NJ--there are many USPSA shooters there, although they are hampered by the mag capacity restrictions from competing in some USPSA divisions.
db|5.9.07 @ 10:36AM|#
Guy:
Yeah, you can barely even buy a legal semiauto '47 for $500.
Contrast that with a legal, FA one for about $15,000.
|5.9.07 @ 10:39AM|#
Are they terrorists, if they were attacking a military base? I
thought one of the conditions that makes an attack a "terrorist"
attack is that it is targeting civilians.
But if the guns weren't illegal, then how could the authorities
have protected Fort Dix in this case? That is why one would hope
that the guns were illegal here, I think.
Fort Dix didn't need the authorities to protect them. They are a
MILITARY BASE!!!
Mike|5.9.07 @ 10:41AM|#
To the illegal immigration question, from this morning's
Philadelphia Inquirer:
The three at the heart of it, the Duka brothers - Dritan, Eljvir and Shain - roofers who sported the same crew-cuts and full, bushy beards: They are ethnic Albanians whose parents smuggled them into the United States as children in 1984.
So they were illegal, but were infants when they arrived. Not
exactly a "sneak across the border and blow up a building" kind of
story.
db|5.9.07 @ 10:55AM|#
kwais: I bought my AK for around $300. (semi
auto).
I meant a good AK.
*ducks*
When did you buy it? I remember when prices were that good, but
most that I've seen recently have been going for no less than
$450.
|5.9.07 @ 10:58AM|#
Are they terrorists, if they were attacking a military base?
I thought one of the conditions that makes an attack a "terrorist"
attack is that it is targeting civilians.
They would be war criminals/illegal combatants regardless of who
they attacked and how, seeing as they are not uniformed members of
a sovereign's army subject to a chain of command, etc.
highnumber|5.9.07 @ 11:03AM|#
So were they another "gang that couldn't shoot straight" or were
they a real threat?
Do we have a consensus yet?
Guy Montag|5.9.07 @ 11:04AM|#
kwais: I bought my AK for around $300. (semi auto).
I meant a good AK.
*ducks*
You beat me to it :)
A guy at work has an AK-47 from his late father-in-law's collection
and is asking $1,200+ for it. Now, I can generally tell a well made
rifle from a crap one, but I need to dig up some info on what makes
an AK worth that much and if this is one.
Guy Montag|5.9.07 @ 11:06AM|#
So were they another "gang that couldn't shoot straight" or
were they a real threat?
Do we have a consensus yet?
Checkl with the global warming scientests. On this topic all we
have is an affidavit and we don't have access (yet) to their
shooting video.
Thank goodness they did not have a bunch of first-shooter games . .
. or did they?
|5.9.07 @ 11:09AM|#
No, mine is a good AK. It is great actually, a lot better than
the vast majority of them in Iraq.
I bought it a few years back, but I remember going into a gunstore
in Nevada and looking and the prices were similar.
It is a Chineese AK, so not as good as the Bulgarian or even the
Russian ones, but I have had no problems, it never jams, and is
pretty accurate for plinking.
|5.9.07 @ 11:12AM|#
1a) As part of the "law enforcement model," the feds kept the
wanna bes under surveillance for a year and a half after
discovering them, in order to make sure the whole gang was rounded
up and to allow the feds to gather more intel by seeing who they
were meeting with and what they were talking about. Immediately
after 9/11, the S.O.P. was immediate interdiction to disrupt
ongoing plots, a strategy more suited to warfighting than law
enforcement and intelligence. It's good that the FBI is being
allowed to use the tactics it has perfected against other shadowy
networks over the decades, like the mafia."
The FBI is putting people under surveillance? How dare they!! I
would be curious to see how this operation was done and what if any
provisions of the dreaded Patriot Act were use. Everyone shoots
their mouth off about how the Patriot Act is the dark night of
fascism or how it is necessary to protect God Liberty and the
American way, but no one on either side ever gives concrete
examples of how this kind of thing can be stoped without the
Patriot Act or how the Act is absolutely necessary to stop this or
that act. I am not saying I know the answer but I would like to
know.
As far as the military versus the law enforcement angle, there
really isn't an angle. No one claims that you can replace law
enforcement with military action. There are some instances where
law enforcement does the job, six yahoos in New Jersey buying
automatic weapons. There are other instances where only military
action can help, a state supporting terrorism and harboring
terrorists like Afghanistan or a failed state where terrorists
operate with impunity, the Horn of Africa. No, I would want to send
in the 101st Airborne after these guys. But, I wouldn't send the
Jersey Highway Patrol in after the Taliban or to get Bin Laden from
the Sudan either. You are proposing a false dichotomy Joe.
|5.9.07 @ 11:12AM|#
Is it just me? Am I the only one jaded by this administration's
hyping of every "terror" case only to later see them fall apart
into minor cases?
While I in now way sympathize or support these guys, this really
sounds like just another testosterone induced fantasy.
Yeah, I know they tried to get guns, but as many folks here can
attest, some people just find it fun to shoot guns and fantasize
about killing their enemies.
I mean, its alleged they panned to attack an ARMY BASE. Not a
school, mall, nuclear plant, government building, etc.... an ARMY
BASE.
Either a silly fantasy or a new version of "suicide by cop" among
the itinerent jihadist types.
|5.9.07 @ 11:17AM|#
12 hundred for an AK? Is it made out of gold? Is it the one
Stalin used to kill some little kids? Is it Saddam's personal
one?
Maybe if you live in CA or NY or some other communist state that is
what one costs if you want to buy it legally.
|5.9.07 @ 11:18AM|#
Why is our multi-trillion dollar military industry afraid of 6 guys with some guns? Don't military bases have guards and all that mess?
The Owner\'s Manual|5.9.07 @ 11:22AM|#
I expect the deliberate substitution of 'anti-immigration folks' with anti-illegal immigration folks from Wiegel, but not from you, Nick.
|5.9.07 @ 11:24AM|#
Dave W, I don't know enough about the FBI's handling of the
McVeigh case to offen an opinion. Sorry.
kwais,
If the Kosovars were Albanian nationalists, they'd hit the Serbs.
If, as seems to be the case, they are fundie Muslim jihadists who
happen to be Kosovo, not so much.
|5.9.07 @ 11:31AM|#
John
""but no one on either side ever gives concrete examples of how
this kind of thing can be stoped without the Patriot Act
""
America's original homeland security, the 2nd Ammendment. We don't
really need the government to protect us if we are allowed to
protect ourselves.
Guy Montag|5.9.07 @ 11:33AM|#
It is a Chineese AK, so not as good as the Bulgarian or even
the Russian ones, but I have had no problems, it never jams, and is
pretty accurate for plinking.
My SAIGA-12 is a Russian 12GA with an AK-based action. It was about
$450 I think, after taxes and fees.
If this guy's AK is Russian with good wood hardware and real
bakalite(sp?) magazines I am guessing it would be worth a higher
price, but I have plenty of time to shop around.
|5.9.07 @ 11:34AM|#
John,
No one has given a concrete example of how this was stopped by the
Patriot Act.
Given the facts as presented, it appears that this was executed
like any old-fashioned mob sting. They FBI got a tip, probably some
search warrants for wiretaps, and set up a sting using an
undercover agent.
|5.9.07 @ 11:42AM|#
I think joe's right on this point. Law enforcement does so much
better when it relies on people on the job, who do extensive
legwork and use lots of elbow grease (I have more clichés if
necessary). Electronic surveillance has its uses, but relying on it
too much is a really bad idea.
The Patriot Act was almost universally unnecessary, and I have
particular disregard for the part that makes libraries and "banks"
(actually the Act implicates most businesses that handle money, not
just banks--I use shorthand here) into private law enforcement
agencies. With huge penalties (for the banks, anyway) for failure
to comply! Egad.
|5.9.07 @ 11:49AM|#
Guy,
If you are looking to spend a hefty chunk on a rifle, look into the
H&K 416. (Or the Magpul, or one of the other rifles based on
the H&K416). It has all the ergonomics and convenience of the
M4/ M16, but has the reliability of the AK.
You can get one in 5.56, 7.62x39, 6.8, or .306.
The US Army was set to adopt them but are stingy and a bureocratic
and a lot of other stuff that irritates me. But Delta is using
them, and I have heard nothing but good things.
I mean the AK is a good weapon for $300, or even $500. But if you
are going to spend that much money, I wouldn't get an AK.
There is better shit out there.
|5.9.07 @ 11:50AM|#
Are AKs STILL considerred to be more reliable than M-16s?
I thought they straightened that out thirty years ago.
Cern|5.9.07 @ 11:59AM|#
The fact that the informant was also the one setting up the arms
deal bothers me.
"So, you're into Jihad? Yeah me too. You know what would be totally
cool? If we attacked an army base. Wouldn't that be sweet! And hey,
guess what? I think I can get us the guns? Lets do it!"
Not necessarily entrapment but isn't the informant playing the same
role as a fundamentalist Imam?
An Army base? Come on. Living in NYC, I can look around and see how
easy it would be for an amateur terrorist to kill A LOT of
people.
Guy Montag|5.9.07 @ 12:02PM|#
Cern,
Most of that is covered in the documents at The Smoking Gun. How
about looking up what you allege and seeing if it is true?
Guy Montag|5.9.07 @ 12:05PM|#
If you are looking to spend a hefty chunk on a rifle, look
into the H&K 416. (Or the Magpul, or one of the other rifles
based on the H&K416). It has all the ergonomics and convenience
of the M4/ M16, but has the reliability of the AK.
Actually, I am just looking to get an AK for novelty value, but am
sure I will like it. That is sort of how the Saiga became my
trap/wobble/skeet gun.
Just was not sure what the one he has is worth and would rather buy
one from someone I know.
|5.9.07 @ 12:08PM|#
1) You can legally own semi-auto weapons in NJ.
1a) Though NJ does have it's own version of the ban on so-called
"assault weapons." Presumably those possessed before the ban were
grandfathered in.
2) The restrictions and permits required to own any gun, even air
guns are extremely onerous.
3) New Jersey prohibits possession of magazines that hold more than
15 rounds.
4) New Jersey technically does allow possession of fully-automatic
weaponry, but above and beyond jumping through the
federally-required hoops to get one, you have to obtain a special
state-level permit which a cursory Google search tells me is very
rarely issued.
5) Legally transferable machineguns and automatic rifles generally
run in the tens of thousands of dollars. According to one
NFA-enthusiast source, a transferable, fully-automatic AK-47 is
$14,500
6) If these guys were planning on buying these rifles for
$500/each, then one can presume that they were attempting to buy
full-auto AK's that are not in the BATFE registry.
|5.9.07 @ 12:11PM|#
Also, various flavors of legally-available SEMI-automatic AK rifles are available, prices start around $400 and go into the thousands of dollars depending on configuration, manufacturer, caliber, etc.
|5.9.07 @ 12:13PM|#
"Are AKs STILL considerred to be more reliable than
M-16s?"
In some circles, this is an endless debate akin to "Lord of the
Rings is waaaay better than The Matrix!"
"I thought they straightened that out thirty years
ago."
Meh.
|5.9.07 @ 12:16PM|#
"There is better shit out there."
Agree.
I've had more jams from AK-pattern rifles than AR-pattern
rifles.
Also, I find the general level of accuracy, ergonomics, sights, and
trigger pull on AK-pattern rifles to be pretty much
unacceptable.
But that's from my view as a competitive shooter.
|5.9.07 @ 12:19PM|#
"If these guys were planning on buying these rifles for
$500/each, then one can presume that they were attempting to buy
full-auto AK's that are not in the BATFE registry."
I'm guessing that what they were actually going to get were $300
semi-auto AKs that, when marked up for the "black market" would
probably cost $500. I'd further guess that if they were semi-auto
AKs that had been (illegally) "hacked" to operate full-auto, that
they would black-market at more than $500... just guessin' on that
part tho'... the penalties for illegal ownership of Full Auto are
sufficient deterent to keep me from looking THAT deep into hack
jobs.
CB
Disclaimer: Former FFL holder and current legal holder of a "Class
III device".
pps. I thought that the reliability issues with M16's were
corrected with the (now old) introduction of the "forward assist"
and other modifications that accompanied it.
|5.9.07 @ 12:25PM|#
Also a change in the sort of powder used.
FWIW, I'd be willing to bet that the guns didn't exist at all, or
if they were shown to the suspects were probably taken from an FBI
evidence locker somewhere.
Guy Montag|5.9.07 @ 12:27PM|#
Also, I find the general level of accuracy, ergonomics,
sights, and trigger pull on AK-pattern rifles to be pretty much
unacceptable.
That huge gas tube over the barrel on my Saiga took some time to
get used to. Had to conciously make sure I was not elevating the
barrel into view from under the tube and shooting a mile over every
clay. After a while it became a non-issue.
Those wierd springs they use are odd to get used to also.
One of the 5 rd. magazines does not operate smoothly. Thought about
taking it apart but I just use the other 2.
Otherwise it is a good, tight gun. With the full choke tube (on a
19" barrel) using 3 dram/7.5 shot shells I can usually hit trap
clays "way out there", like when we play "scrap" and stand on the
skeet positions using the trap-shooting trap.
Guy Montag|5.9.07 @ 12:29PM|#
FWIW, I'd be willing to bet that the guns didn't exist at
all, or if they were shown to the suspects were probably taken from
an FBI evidence locker somewhere.
Scroll up. An FBI guy was on the news this AM saying that they were
presented with non-functioning guns at purchase time. So I am
guessing the charge would be attempted illegal purchase of a Class
III controlled firearm, or something like that.
|5.9.07 @ 12:30PM|#
It looks to me as though the weapons buy is only a side issue.
Certainly buying or attempting to buy a full-auto without the
proper federal procedures would be illegal.
But the big charge here is the planning of an attack on Fort Dix
with alternate plans to attack other bases.
I'm pretty sure the arms buy is just the thing the Feds needed to
sew this up at a real threat and genuine conspiracy and not a bunch
of trash talk from a bunch of disgruntled losers. Just as the video
reproduction deal created probable cause for investigation and
surveillance in the first place, but was not a crime in and of
itself.
But just sayin', if somone came to me offering an under the table
deal on full auto wepons I'd seriously consider the possibility
that he was a Federal Agent trying to entrap me. Because I think
that's the most likely possibility.
|5.9.07 @ 12:35PM|#
What kind of terrorists can't get a DVD copied? Even if they had
to go from VHS is some bizarre format to DVD, there are way too
many devices and software available for that task.
Mediageek: I'm no expert (haven't fired my pa's AR-15 in years),
but competitive shooting is rather "clean" compared to warfare. I
don't think anybody argues that an AR is a better weapon when it's
clean. Isn't the AK's forte its ability to fire when it's dirty,
rusty and wet? I could be wrong, of course, but the AK's "sloppy"
action leads to a crappier gun until that sloppy action is needed
because there's seaweed lodged in there. No? (Disclosure: My
competitive shooting was all with the Single Action Shooting
Society, not exactly "modern.")
|5.9.07 @ 12:36PM|#
I thought that the whole AK vs M-16 thing was a matter of price
at this point.
If I'm not mistaken the M-16 is at least double the price of an AK
on the legitimate arms market and that a lot of governments chose
the AK on a "more bang for the buck" basis.
It also strikes me that most of the foreign armies using the M-16
are getting massive US military aid. So those govts are simply
going for the subsidy.
|5.9.07 @ 12:42PM|#
""I thought they straightened that out 30 years
ago"'
Well they fixed a lot of stuff, if you are a civilian, or a pogue,
and you have plenty of time to clean and maintain the weapon it is
probably more reliable than an AK.
But under stressfull conditions, and lots of use, it is less
so.
The H&K 416 is the same as an M4 on the outside, but has
different internals, a different operating system. It runs like a
sewing machine.
The way the M4 works carbon blows back into the bolt to cycle the
weapon.
|5.9.07 @ 12:45PM|#
"foreign armies...are getting massive US military aid"
Now THERE is something we should be arguing about!!!
"The way the M4 works carbon blows back into the bolt to cycle the
weapon."
CARBON!!!! Oh my gawd! Let's tax the shit out of that and save the
environment!!
CB
|5.9.07 @ 12:48PM|#
Lamar,
I think that countries that use m16's are countries that can afford
them. Countries that use AK's are those that can't.
In today's M16's and AK's, the M16's are usually more reliable in
most training scenarios, but less so in actual war. Less so in very
involved training.
The flaw is not the tightness of the action, but the gas system.
The really good AK's are pretty tight too, and they still don't
jam.
|5.9.07 @ 1:02PM|#
"Mediageek: I'm no expert (haven't fired my pa's AR-15 in
years), but competitive shooting is rather "clean" compared to
warfare. I don't think anybody argues that an AR is a better weapon
when it's clean. Isn't the AK's forte its ability to fire when it's
dirty, rusty and wet? I could be wrong, of course, but the AK's
"sloppy" action leads to a crappier gun until that sloppy action is
needed because there's seaweed lodged in there. No? (Disclosure: My
competitive shooting was all with the Single Action Shooting
Society, not exactly "modern.")"
Lamar-
That's why I qualified my comment as being from a competitive
shooter. I have neither the experience nor firsthand knowledge to
say whether the rifle functions well in adverse/combat
conditions.
That said, I have known some competitive shooters to go 1,000+
rounds between cleaning of an AR-pattern rifle.
LarryA|5.9.07 @ 1:04PM|#
Not trying to be snarky here, but this is the first time I
can recall hearing of a bunch of guys who wanted to go on a
shooting rampage where their intended victims might have a chance
of actually fighting back. (I make this comment on the assumption
that Fort Dix is NOT a "gun-free zone.")
Actually (remembering from my own military service some time ago)
it is sort of a gun-free zone. Civilian concealed carry is
prohibited on military bases. There are lots of military firearms,
of course, but almost all are securely locked away in arms rooms.
In three years of active duty stateside as an infantry officer I
spent almost all of it unarmed. When we did draw rifles it was
usually for training, and we were lucky if we got blank cartridges.
There were only two situations where I actually had both a firearm
and ammo. The first was at a firing position on a rifle range,
where you were issued the number of cartridges for an exercise just
before time to shoot. The second was as paymaster, way back when
the pay was in cash. I drew a pistol and one magazine (seven
rounds) of ammo. The Army doesn't do cash pay any more.
Basically, the only people armed on a typical military base were
the Military Police.
You're wrong about the "Class III License." A Class III SOT is
only required to deal in such firearms.
Sort of true. But any Class III firearm must be licensed, along
with paying the $300.00(?) tax, and following restrictions on where
you can take it.
Why is our multi-trillion dollar military industry afraid of 6
guys with some guns? Don't military bases have guards and all that
mess?
Of course. Just like VATech does.
Though NJ does have it's own version of the ban on so-called
"assault weapons."
NJ "assault weapons" definition
here. (Scroll down) Both AK-type rifles and the AR 15 series
are prohibited.
|5.9.07 @ 1:36PM|#
"Sort of true. But any Class III firearm must be licensed,
along with paying the $300.00(?) tax, and following restrictions on
where you can take it."
Purchasing an NFA Title II firearm requires that the buyer pay a
$200 transfer tax in the case of sound suppressors, fully automatic
firearms, and short-barreled rifles, or shotguns.
Weapons that fall under the "Any Other Weapon" (AOW) category
require a $5 transfer tax. This would include things like pen guns
or other firearms that are peculiar in design.
I believe that the NFA tax also applies to "non-sporting" firearms
that have a bore over fifty caliber.
Cern|5.9.07 @ 1:49PM|#
Most of that is covered in the documents at The Smoking Gun.
How about looking up what you allege and seeing if it is
true?
Guy... touché.
I took your advice and reviewed the affidavit. Interestingly, there
are plenty of scare quotes from the bad guys but almost no quoted
material from the informants. There is little indication one way or
the other as to how much the paid informant encouraged the plan. It
does appear as though the informant made the first offer to supply
assault weapons (page 22). Amusingly, the "terrorist" turned him
down. There is precious little information about the arrest
triggering event (actual attempted purchase).
|5.9.07 @ 1:52PM|#
It's kind of hard to be "competent" when you are crippled from
performing your job by lack of manning, intelligence gathering
tools, or higher officials just blowing you off.
It's like telling a car mechanic to build an engine in a day and
only giving him a 7/8" box wrench.
Telling the FBI and CIA, "Go find out who's planing attacks on us,
but you can't use a mole, we don't want anyone in harm's way. As if
you'd need to, you can listen to their phone converstions at your
lesiure with that machine over there... but you can't use that
either, you know, 'illegal wire tapping' and all..." is not going
to make for stellar results.
The attack on Ft. Dix was thwarted because the FBI had guys on the
inside, and that's the best way to monitor and apprehend cells
short of "catch, tag, and release", but that'd be BAAAAAAAD and
infringe on the terrorist's human rights (and Allah knows he's so
concerned with yours).
db|5.9.07 @ 2:12PM|#
Also a change in the sort of powder used.
Originally they tried to use the same powder as the 7.62x51mm NATO
round. It turns out that the calcium carbonate concentration was
too high and scaled up the gas tube and bolt/bolt carrier interface
and gas rings, causing malfunctions. Not enough gas could get back
to the carrier to move it.
db|5.9.07 @ 2:16PM|#
============
You're wrong about the "Class III License." A Class III SOT is only
required to deal in such firearms.
Sort of true. But any Class III firearm must be licensed, along
with paying the $300.00(?) tax, and following restrictions on where
you can take it.
=============
I'm intimately aware of the requirements. the tax, as noted above,
varies according to the type of firearm and is $200 in the case of
machineguns.
It's not a license, it's a background check to establish the
individual's eligibility to own it.
The restrictions on movement as provided for by the NFA apply
generally only to movements across state lines. Owners must have an
approved Form 5320.20 specifying the location to which the weapon
is to be temporarily moved. This is not required for sound
suppressors. Of course, one can't legally move a lawfully owned NFA
item into a jurisdiction that prohibits them locally.
Guy Montag|5.9.07 @ 2:21PM|#
Originally they tried to use the same powder as the
7.62x51mm NATO round. It turns out that the calcium carbonate
concentration was too high and scaled up the gas tube and bolt/bolt
carrier interface and gas rings, causing malfunctions. Not enough
gas could get back to the carrier to move it.
Not sure if the stuff I am remembering is a little more "original"
than that. Two types of powder were tested: A faster burning
powder, not from it being chemically different, but by the shape of
the pellets and "regular" powder. The faster burning stuff gave a
faster cyclic rate in the lab and test ranges, but it tended to
swell in humid areas (like Vietnam) enough in the cartridges to get
rounds stuck hard in the chamber. So hard that the base could be
ripped off by the extractor.
They finally switched to a "regular" powder (sounds liek the stuff
you are talking about) and solved the swelling problem.
TLC or the History channel has a good show about it featuring the
museum guy at Aberdine(?) who is the curator of the whole M-16
collection and was amoung one of the first soldiers to be issued
one in the 1960s(?).
Guy Montag|5.9.07 @ 2:25PM|#
The restrictions on movement as provided for by the NFA
apply generally only to movements across state lines. Owners must
have an approved Form 5320.20 specifying the location to which the
weapon is to be temporarily moved. This is not required for sound
suppressors. Of course, one can't legally move a lawfully owned NFA
item into a jurisdiction that prohibits them locally.
I think there is a restriction on concealed carry in TN (and other
places) about carrying threaded barrels being illegal even without
a suppressor installed. Not sure how that applies to the Walther
models that use threaded barrels exclusively.
|5.9.07 @ 2:38PM|#
Here's the deal on NJ firearms. NJ residents get an ID card from
their local police departments that lets us buy one or one hundred,
or one thousand long guns. Once we have the card, it works like a
library card.
For purchases of new guns, we have the federal instant check in
place, but for used guns, if you have the ID card, I can sell to
you.
NJ has a separate so-called assault weapon ban. It bans specific
guns, and grabs guns which are substantially similar, whatever that
means. NJ did not grandfather existing guns. Buy the rifle before
the ban, pay the sales tax, and it became contraband once the ban
was passed.
The NJ ban specifically names the AK-47 and the AR-15. But a former
Attorney General wrote a letter stating that possession of AR-15s
would be OK, and even gun stores will sell ARs. With a replacement
AG in place, the fate of the AR is in question.
Whatever is substantially similar no one has figured out. Uzis are
banned, Marlin Camp Carbines in the same caliber are okay. AK is
banned, AR is fine. SKS is NG, but Ruger Mini 15 or 30 are
fine.
|5.9.07 @ 2:52PM|#
I can't believe this thread has gone as long as it has without someone saying "Duka, Duka".
Guy Montag|5.9.07 @ 3:04PM|#
The cable coverage I've seen so far has been stressing the
"illegal immigrant" angle--though I've yet to read an account of
how the Duka boys actually got into the country.
A good guess is they were brough over as refugees from Kosovo and
stayed in the refugee camp on the Ft. Dix military reservation,
then kept staying in the area even after they were supposed to go
back.
You know, fallout from some of that "just war" stuff that some
people are into.
|5.9.07 @ 4:46PM|#
Just to clarify.
In addition to the paperwork, background check and tax the transfer
of a Class III firearm must be done
through a dealer with a Class III Federal Firearms Licence
(FFL).
There can be no direct private sales as there are with other guns.
If I am not mistaken the dealer must hold the gun until all the
requirements have been met but on that I might be wrong.
Suffice it to say, transferring a full-auto rifle is a convoluted
chore.
|5.9.07 @ 4:57PM|#
I think that countries that use m16's are countries that can
afford them. Countries that use AK's are those that
can't.
That was what I was getting at in my post at 12:36pm.
For the most part the countries that can afford M16s are countries
that get US military aid. It either makes up the difference or
covers the whole bill.
I notice from the TV coverage that the new Iraqi Army is using AKs.
I assume that's mostly because they already had a shitload of them
from Saddam's day though.
db|5.9.07 @ 5:27PM|#
Isaac,
You are incorrect about transfers having to go through a dealer.
NFA firearms can be transferred directly from person-to-person
unless the transferor and transferee do not reside in the same
state. There is a somewhat gray area questioning whether the
instant background check has to be performed by a dealer after the
paperwork has been approved, so some go to a dealer to have that
done.
There is no requirement for a Special Occupational Taxpayer to
mediate a transfer of NFA firearms if the transferor and transferee
reside in the same state. Some states require additional paperwork,
which is what you may be thinking about.
|5.9.07 @ 6:06PM|#
A) Repeat after me: THERE IS NO TERRORIST THREAT
B) What the fucking fuck is wrong with Muslims? Our military
intervened to save their Albanian asses from Christians who were
trying to kill them. So we're the bad guy now? Ok, we'll remember
that lesson for the future.
|5.9.07 @ 6:57PM|#
Dave,
Really the case can be made that we fucked the situation up, and
caused more Kosovo Albanian and Bosnian deaths than lives we saved.
And in both cases intervened as the situation was just about to
turn around and the underdogs were about to gain the
upperhand.
Even though this, we are the lesser of the guilty parties. Russia
and then the Rest of Europe being the true criminals in these
cases.
Therefore if retaliation would make more sense against them.
z|5.9.07 @ 7:57PM|#
How were these guys discovered? I'm sure it was a tip from one of those fancy Data Mining programs which read all of our phone calls, bank records, and emails. That god for the Patriot Act. Not.
Guy Montag|5.9.07 @ 8:42PM|#
Really the case can be made that we fucked the situation up,
and caused more Kosovo Albanian and Bosnian deaths than lives we
saved. And in both cases intervened as the situation was just about
to turn around and the underdogs were about to gain the
upperhand.
Through the arms embargo the West imposed against the Muslims? I
was against that at the time. Unsure now.
z,
How were these guys discovered?
Try scrolling up. Reading is an important, but fleeting, tool in
our society.
They were reported to have been discovered when they brought a
video tape to a photo store to be burned to DVD. Several posts
above refrence that and I posted the affadivit where it is spelled
out in little tiny words that are easy to understand.
|5.10.07 @ 2:10AM|#
I strongly doubt that the movtivation behind the attacks was
"The United States made a strategic error in intervening at the
moment which it did, our tensions with the Serbians WHO WERE
FUCKING KILLING US were increased because the US started BOMBING
THE SHIT OUT OF THEM TO SAVE OUR LIVES, which may have led to more
violence than would have occured otherwise!"
I do not, however, doubt that the motivation was something more
like "Islam will take over the world, the infidels must die, praise
Allah!"
I'm sure I'm being so simplistic though.
|5.10.07 @ 6:20AM|#
Dave,
The Serbs were killing the Bosnians and later the Kosovars with
immunity BECAUSE of our arms embargo.
A one sided killing like that doesn't happen when both sides are
armed.
We prevented one side from arming to defend itself, but we didnt
prevent the other side from arming to commit genocide.
Guy Montag|5.10.07 @ 8:20AM|#
Just heard on the Balko cable network that the illegals were
brought to the us as children in 1984. If that is true then the
legal refugee theory I mentioned earlier is probably wrong.
Would be ironic if they got in through some government "ignore the
borders" program advocated by the collander crowd.
Chris Howell|5.10.07 @ 11:00AM|#
Sorry, but I'm late to the thread. I guess it was a good piece of police work. If having the case handed to you is good police work. Remember, if it hadn't been for the heads up of the CITIZEN who worked in the DVD dupe store the police might not have found out about these criminals. Again, the police cannot protect us. We must protect ourselves. These guys were dolts, that's why they were busted. What are the police doing to protect us from the smart criminals?
Some random guy late to this t|5.10.07 @ 9:13PM|#
joe @ May 9, 2007, 9:28am "An Army base. The target they chose
was an Army base. Not a grade school. Not an office building. Yes,
Virginia, the Iraq War is inspiring terrorism."
joe @ May 9, 2007, 9:37am ""The Iraq War inspires terrorism" does
not equal "The Iraq War inspires all terrorism.""
So was this terrorist plot inspired by the Iraq War or not?
If not, what is your point?
PS - And can Radley tell us if they were they arrested by a SWAT
team?
Guy Montag|5.11.07 @ 7:40AM|#
What if the illegals in the bunch entered through someplace in
Texas, like Brownsville, and they actually joined a radical Islamic
group sometime later?
Nah! That could never be!
Guy Montag|5.11.07 @ 8:16AM|#
This story looks like it could have been written from this
thread, even the title:
Did FBI tricks fix Fort Dix 6?
Terror suspects may claim entrapment
GEOFF MULVIHILL
Associated Press Writer
May 11, 2007
Then again, what was discussed here (and in the linked article) is
so predictible that there are probably classes on it.
Maybe the
FBI got this guy interested in bomb making as a hobby?
That one will get some traction in certain circles.
|5.11.07 @ 11:17AM|#
A good guess is they were brough over as refugees from
Kosovo and stayed in the refugee camp on the Ft. Dix military
reservation, then kept staying in the area even after they were
supposed to go back.
Rush Limbaugh has already jumped on this angle and blamed Bill
Clinton.
And in other news, the Pope is Catholic.
Guy Montag|5.11.07 @ 5:51PM|#
Mike,
Coming late to the thread allows you to read all of the
posts, including this
one.
The roles of both joe and Dave W. are already filled. Thank you for
visiting.
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