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Should Muslim Women Be Allowed to Choose Re-Virginization Surgery?
Hymenoplasty--the surgicial reconstruction of broken hymens--is a popular procedure among French Muslim women who have had a dalliance or two before marriage. According to the Courier-Mail, some French doctors are denouncing the surgery
...as a sign of social regression driven by Islamic fundamentalists.
Jacques Lansac, chairman of the French National College of Gynaecologists and Obstetricians, is leading the campaign against what he describes as "an attack on the dignity of women".
However, other surgeons offer the procedure "in the hope of protecting patients from being ostracised or beaten." Physicians are also asked to sign certificates that state that the young women are virgins. The article concludes:
While some doctors will not sign virginity certificates because it is not a medical problem, others will.
Jacques Milliez, head of the department of gynaecology and obstetrics at Saint-Antoine hospital in Paris, said: "I worked in Algeria as a junior doctor and when I was on call at night I saw these young women whose throats had been slit because they were suspected of having lost their virginity. So if someone asks me, I sign the certificate."
I absolutely hate caving into fundamentalist claptrap about female sexual purity. On the other hand, I don't see why women should not freely be allowed to purchase that procedure if that's what they think will give them the best chance at a happy life. On the third hand, I would be really happy if young Muslim women would just tell their families to go to Hell and live with whomever they choose. On the fourth hand, saying "Go to Hell" is very easy for me to say.
Discuss.
thoreau|5.9.07 @ 1:49PM|#
On the third hand... On the fourth hand...
I didn't realize that tissue engineering was already that
advanced!
:)
|5.9.07 @ 1:54PM|#
thoreau: Not to change the subject from hymenoplasty but see my transhumanist buddy J.Hughes' essay "Embracing Change with All Four Arms." :)
|5.9.07 @ 1:56PM|#
This idea of 'virginity certificates' confuses me, since havin and intact hymen and not having had vaginal sex are doubly dissociated. What does virginity mean?
|5.9.07 @ 2:03PM|#
Ron should simply have stopped at the first hand, because the fundies will no doubt chop off the other three.
|5.9.07 @ 2:04PM|#
I don't have a problem with a surgical procedure that dupes the world's shittiest men.
|5.9.07 @ 2:04PM|#
I suggest a free-market solution. Form an organization called, say, Underwear Laboratories to certify the virginity of any prospective wife.
Guy Montag|5.9.07 @ 2:05PM|#
Physicians are also asked to sign certificates that state
that the young women are virgins.
So, in france they buy virginity credits like Al Gore buys carbon
credits?
I love this site. Learning is so fun here!
SugarFree|5.9.07 @ 2:06PM|#
Ron's in the pocket of Big Hymen!*
"Big Hymen" is a great name for a female punk band.
I come down in the "they shouldn't have to have them, but if they
want them they should get them" camp. But, in a practical vein,
can't we all chip in and get little Muslim girl's boys bicycles and
solve this hymen worshiping problem once and for all?
*I haven't got to do one of those yet. It's a bonding experience
for the whole community. I feel closer to you all.
thoreau|5.9.07 @ 2:08PM|#
SugarFree, be very careful what you say about the pelvic anatomy
of minors. Seriously. I know what you meant, but it never hurts to
be careful on that subject.
Just saying.
Brian E|5.9.07 @ 2:09PM|#
I was really expecting to see "on the gripping hand" show up somewhere in that progression, but I guess Moties only have three hands.
|5.9.07 @ 2:11PM|#
For the good of the nation, I suggest segregation. Isolate the virgins in a new town--Hymen Town!
|5.9.07 @ 2:13PM|#
"So, in france they buy virginity credits like Al Gore buys
carbon credits?"
I guess you have a point. They both buy something that has a
positive practical effect. Are you going leftie on us, Montag?
|5.9.07 @ 2:17PM|#
I was really expecting to see "on the gripping hand" show up
somewhere in that progression, but I guess Moties only have three
hands.
Miniatures or "Brownies" have four arms. And I believe that Motie
Warriors have a short clawed appendage (described as resembling "a
gutting knife") under their left arms. But IIRC, all the sentient
castes have only three fully functioning hands, yes.
/nerd
SugarFree|5.9.07 @ 2:19PM|#
thoreau,
Fair point. We have a disturbing number of both literal-minded and
deliberately obtuse people on this board. I was really only talking
about a fine excuse for hymen-lacking. Gymnastics, fences, and
horse riding all fall in this category as well...
|5.9.07 @ 2:19PM|#
Little Becky Two Shoes
What is Hymentown?
Urinetown's the end!
Swift and brutal punishment
No need now to pretend!
Hot Blades Harry
The trap door's sprung
And then you're hung
And when they cut you down
They'll box you up and ship you out
And call it Urinetown!
The Poor
They'll box you up and ship you out
And call it Urinetown!
Town!
Town!
Town!
Town!
Dance?
No!
Never do they dance!
Those people down in Urinetown
They never get the chance!
Dancing, forget it!
Never, nada, nope!
Unless it's at the bottom of a rope!
Lockstock
People hear lots of things about Urinetown, of course, and that's
just
the way we like it. For example, a little boy once asked me,
"Is
Urinetown actually a nice place to live? Gingerbread houses
along
golden, frothy canals? Like Venice, only different?" I didn't say
yes. I
didn't say no, either.
Cladwell
What is Urinetown?
Urinetown's a tool
An instrument of power
To enforce my iron rule
So send your troops
To all the stoops
And let them understand
If Hope is not returned
It's Urinetown for all the land!
The Poor
If Hope is not returned
It's Urinetown for all the land!
Land!
Land!
Land!
Land!
Cladwell
Dance?
Dance?
Do they think I'll dance?
Those people with my daughter
Want to make me change my stance
Stance-dance, forget it!
Never, nada, nein!
I'll teach them not to
Take from me what's mine!
Bobby
What is Urinetown?
Urinetown's a lie
A means to keep the poor in check
Until the day they die!
I did not shirk their dirty work
But things are different now
We'll fight for right
With all our might
Until we win somehow!
Bobby and Josephine
We'll fight for might
With all our might
Until we win somehow!
How!
How!
How!
How!
Bobby
Dance!
Dance!
Listen to it dance!
My heart is like a stallion
Racing through a great expanse
Canyons of freedom
That's where it will waltz
Performing coronary somersaults!
Little Sally
What is Urinetown?
Urinetown is here!
It's the "town" wherever
People learn to live in fear
So look around, you've finally found
The place you asked about
For Urinetown is your town
If you're hopeless down and out!
All
For Urinetown is your town
If you're hopeless, down and out!
Lockstock
For Urinetown is your town
If you're hopeless, down and out!
All
Out!
Out!
Out!
Out!
Hey!
Dave W.|5.9.07 @ 2:29PM|#
So, in france they buy virginity credits like Al Gore buys
carbon credits?
Maybe some Muslims do feel somewhat like this in the sense that
they feel that premarital sex should carry a cost, but not an
unmanageable cost.
So, you enjoy some premarital sex and pay a moderate price with a
painful, invasive surgery, and the fact that you have to keep a
shameful secret. Or, you forego the premarital sex and skip the
price. Maybe some large segment of the Muslim population thinks
that this is the most reasonable incentive & disincentive
system for young women, their Freakonomics, their Coasian
compromise.
We will never find out if us white people just sit here snarking
and don't get an honest to goodness French Muslim to articulate how
s/he feels about the apparent contradiction for us. Maybe the
surgery is a sensible middle ground between "ostracism / beting" on
the one hand, and free love on the other. I mean, not to me, but
then I ain't a French Muslim.
Guy Montag|5.9.07 @ 2:29PM|#
I guess you have a point. They both buy something that has a
positive practical effect. Are you going leftie on us,
Montag?
No, I "found" a new market!
Montag's Carbon Credits and Chastity Credits.
Look for the display right next to Montag's Sader Pork Sausage and
Ramadan Ribs.
|5.9.07 @ 2:45PM|#
Vulcan welcomes this development as the decline in the supply of virgins in recent years has led to a diminishing of throwing them into volcanos.
bourgeoiscowboy|5.9.07 @ 2:49PM|#
"Maybe some Muslims do feel somewhat like this in the sense that
they feel that premarital sex should carry a cost, but not an
unmanageable cost."
Seems more likely that they want to avoid having their throats slit
for having premarital sex, as the article strongly implies.
Guy Montag|5.9.07 @ 2:51PM|#
Ron Bailey is everywhere!
http://www.reason.com/news/show/34905.html
Damn Ron! You really had to pay your dues before having your cushy
current job.
|5.9.07 @ 3:00PM|#
Our school did Urinetown--it was OK... I think the rather arrogant head of the Theatre department distorted the message and made the show more about camp than any sort of satire--but I digress.
MikeT|5.9.07 @ 3:03PM|#
Unfortunately, the family would probably say to their daughter "you first, bitch" as they slit her throat like so many honor killings...
|5.9.07 @ 3:06PM|#
They are big on that operation in Dubai too.
The rich girls from Saudi and Kuwait can go get them operations,
the poor ones got to take it in the booty if they want to have
pre-marital sex and still get married.
|5.9.07 @ 3:11PM|#
Can a news story with the headline "Virgin Gives New Husband
STD!" be in the near future?
I think so.
|5.9.07 @ 3:12PM|#
Ideally, I suppose, we would prosecute anyone who cut a young
woman's throat for "cultural" reasons, or who beat her or otherwise
assaulted her.
The good old days of "It may be your culture to burn the dead man's
wife, but its our culture to hang chaps who do things like that"
appear to be over.
|5.9.07 @ 3:15PM|#
Can a news story with the headline "Virgin Gives New Husband
STD!" be in the near future?
Immaculate infection?
|5.9.07 @ 3:22PM|#
If people want to live their lives as low-grade morons who follow some sort of idiot superstition that requires them to live like they're in the 13th century, that's up to them.
Bazil|5.9.07 @ 3:24PM|#
Ayn Rand once said word to the effect (Can't remember the exact
words) that Communism, Socialism etc... are all just end symptoms
the true enemy is Irrationality.
I am not that familiar about Turkish culture but killing your own
sister?!! That's just sick; period.
thoreau|5.9.07 @ 3:24PM|#
RC, are people actually getting away with "honor killings" out
of political correctness?
Or is it actually a matter of people getting off for lack of
evidence?
|5.9.07 @ 3:29PM|#
Why are we even asking a question like this, given than men and women alike are permitted the much more drastic reconfiguration of their genitals known as gender reassignment surgery?
|5.9.07 @ 3:34PM|#
"If people want to live their lives as low-grade morons who
follow some sort of idiot superstition that requires them to live
like they're in the 13th century, that's up to them."
The problem with that statement is that even if the woman doesn't
believe in said superstition, she may still be "punished" by
scumbag men who do.
|5.9.07 @ 3:34PM|#
So do they get their tits and asses done at the same time as a wedding present for their boyfriends? Is it a package deal?
|5.9.07 @ 3:36PM|#
I don't believe in the existence of hymens. I've never seen one
(and Lord knows I've looked.) I've found a G-spot or two, so it's
not like I don't know my way around.
Does this make me an ahymenist?
|5.9.07 @ 3:40PM|#
However, other surgeons offer the procedure "in the hope of
protecting patients from being ostracised or beaten."
Isn't it a bigger issue that women in France are being "ostracised
or beaten" for not being virgins a bigger issue then if this
surgery is available or not?
Or is Europe so confortable on the surrender train that they don't
even notice things like this anymore?
|5.9.07 @ 3:41PM|#
"If people want to live their lives as low-grade morons who
follow some sort of idiot superstition that requires them to live
like they're in the 13th century, that's up to them."
That's what I keep saying about the environmentalists but
unfortunately, both the environmentalists and these Muslims what to
take us there with them.
|5.9.07 @ 3:49PM|#
The people who want to ban such surgeries under the name of feminism make me sick. Because if girls having sex stand up and get killed, even if it would be only rarely instead of the norm, it's going to keep them in line and further this idealization of virginity. Let 'em screw around, get the surgery, get married and maybe it starts becoming more normal and less of a biggie. The less of a biggie it gets, the more likely girls will be able to screw around and get married without having surgery or lying about it.
|5.9.07 @ 3:52PM|#
t, I am merely contrasting the current situation, which seems to
focus on fooling and/or appeasing the barbarians who are beating
and killing women, with the approach the British took to barbarians
who were burning women alive in India in the 1800s.
I note that the traditional British approach seems to have
drastically reduced the barbarian tendencies of the Indians.
Not so sure about the current Western approach.
|5.9.07 @ 3:53PM|#
Yeah, it is a bigger deal that women are ostracized and beaten.
But, unable to stop that from any culture anywhere. The hymen
operation option is a good one I think.
As long as taxpayer money isn't being spent on it, I don't see what
is to oppose
|5.9.07 @ 3:54PM|#
Isn't it a bigger issue that women in France are being
"ostracised or beaten" for not being virgins a bigger issue then if
this surgery is available or not?
You'd think. But grappling with that issue takes you straight into
a realization that there are segments of Muslim culture that are
barbaric and cannot be tolerated in a civilized society. Too many
multi-culti elites don't want to face that fact.
thoreau|5.9.07 @ 3:59PM|#
R C-
I have no problem with prosecuting thugs who beat (or worse) their
wives or girlfriends. I also understand that it isn't always easy
to build a case, and so I find it hard to fault women who prefer to
simply keep certain secrets. And I see nothing wrong with doctors
(who are in no position to prosecute anybody) respecting that
preference.
Besides, one could conceive of situations where this procedure is
sought to avoid shame rather than violence. People get all sorts of
cosmetic procedures because they believe (sometimes accurately,
sometimes not) that they will be more confident afterward, or feel
less shame about their looks, or that people will treat them
differently, or whatever.
So I can see why women might get this surgery even if they don't
fear actual violence, and in those instances it seems to be in the
same category as plastic surgery.
Catal Hyuk Hyuk Hyuk|5.9.07 @ 4:09PM|#
is it actually a matter of people getting off for lack of
evidence?
getting off with lack of evidence
|5.9.07 @ 4:25PM|#
The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies - civilians
and military - is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it
in any country in which it is possible to do it. This is in
accordance with the words of Almighty God, "and fight the pagans
all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until
there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice
and faith in God."
- Osama bin Laden's 1998 fatwa
In light of bin Laden's fatwa, the vaginal deception surgery of
French Muslim whores is tripe.
|5.9.07 @ 4:32PM|#
"Vulcan welcomes this development as the decline in the supply
of virgins in recent years has led to a diminishing of throwing
them into volcanos."
I was in a road band for several years. Lots of women. 3 were
virgins. Without a doubt, the worst f*cks imaginable.
Rhywun|5.9.07 @ 4:33PM|#
one could conceive of situations where this procedure is
sought to avoid shame rather than violence
I'm having a really hard time trying to imagine that. The whole
point of the surgery is to pretend to be a virgin. Either the woman
has good reason to believe that her throat will be slit on wedding
night, or she doesn't. If she survives wedding night, then the
surgery has served its purpose. "Confidence" and "shame" are
longer-lasting conditions.
thoreau|5.9.07 @ 4:43PM|#
Rhywun-
What if he divorces her rather than slits her throat? That could
bring shame but not violence.
|5.9.07 @ 4:53PM|#
"What if he divorces her rather than slits her throat? That
could bring shame but not violence."
But the shame would be on the groom as well.
|5.9.07 @ 5:01PM|#
Perhaps some middle ground is available. Rather than slitting the non-virgin's throat, perhaps the offended groom could simply bitch slap her? I'm just looking for a workable solution here, folks.
Rhywun|5.9.07 @ 5:29PM|#
What if he divorces her rather than slits her throat? That
could bring shame but not violence.
So... she gets the surgery and her four brothers are going to be
all, "Cool. You bring no shame upon us any more"...?
|5.9.07 @ 6:21PM|#
So... she gets the surgery and her four brothers are going
to be all, "Cool. You bring no shame upon us any
more"...?
Rhywun,
You'd be absolutely right, but remember, these are the same people
who are more afraid of pork-fat-covered bullets than regular
bullets.
They don't think like you and I.
|5.9.07 @ 6:26PM|#
No experienced man would be fooled by a fake hymen. There are much more obvious differences between a virgin vagina and an experienced vagina.
|5.9.07 @ 6:43PM|#
I am not sure the fear of pork fat covered bullets is not a
myth.
I am going to ask one of my devout moslem friends tommorrow. I am
guessing it is a myth.
|5.9.07 @ 7:53PM|#
The Real Bill,
An experienced man might be fooled if she performed her Kegel
excercises daily.
|5.9.07 @ 8:27PM|#
NoStar,
Those exercises would help in the deception, no doubt. Still, there
are other indications of experience.
|5.9.07 @ 8:42PM|#
Seamus, I think the difference is that no-one is getting gender reassignment surgery so their future spouse won't beat or kill them. It's not the surgery per se, it's the reasoning behind it. As a matter of fact there was an article in the WSJ (I think, coulda been the NYT) about wealthy women in this country getting the procedure as a "gift" for their husbands. I still think it's a little weird, but a different weird entirely.
Guy Montag|5.9.07 @ 9:26PM|#
the poor ones got to take it in the booty if they want to
have pre-marital sex and still get married.
Don't they lose their behiman?
Guy Montag|5.9.07 @ 9:30PM|#
I'm having a really hard time trying to imagine that. The
whole point of the surgery is to pretend to be a virgin.
Didn't Tom Wolfe cover all of this in some really annoying male
latrine dialogue in his "Charolette Simmons" book?
Dave W.|5.10.07 @ 7:18AM|#
Either the woman has good reason to believe that her throat
will be slit on wedding night, or she doesn't.
I think you are being a little bit manipulated by the article,
Rhywun. The doctor quoted in this post supposedly saw women's
throat slit in Algeria for not being virgins. Even assuming that
the doctor is not making that up for political purposes, there
seems to be a lot less evidence that beatings are taking place in
France for this reason, much less throat slittings. As far as
ostracization goes, I am not even sure what that means. Is that
like when parents of the generation prior to mine kicked out a
teenage daughter for being pregnant, a lesbian, a Wiccan or even
just a punkrocker?
The article, and this post are crafted to make you think that if a
young woman would choose this surgery, then she must be in
fear from her life by French Muslims. I don't know if the murder
stats in Paris, where Dr. Milliez now practices, would bear that
out, but I am not going to take the implication as truth without
more. If Dr. Milliez cares so much, maybe he should take his suture
kit back to Algeria and start doing the surgery there on sliding
scale.
|5.10.07 @ 9:58AM|#
Seamus, I think the difference is that no-one is getting
gender reassignment surgery so their future spouse won't beat or
kill them. It's not the surgery per se, it's the reasoning behind
it. As a matter of fact there was an article in the WSJ (I think,
coulda been the NYT) about wealthy women in this country getting
the procedure as a "gift" for their husbands. I still think it's a
little weird, but a different weird entirely.
Oh, I get it: if people want surgery to keep from being murdered,
that's a frivolous reason that shouldn't be allowed, but if they
want it because they have money burning a whole in their pocket and
they can't think of any better present to give their husbands for
Christmas, that's totally different, and totally OK. Makes perfect
sense to me.
|5.10.07 @ 12:46PM|#
The next poster will live in infamy as the one who got post #69 on a thread about restored virginity.
|5.10.07 @ 1:04PM|#
The next poster will live in infamy as the one who got post
#69 on a thread about restored virginity.
I'll bite.
Muslim men are so stupid. If they just gave their daughters Puirty
Balls, made them wear purity rings, and provided abstinence only
sex education in schools, they would guarantee virginity until
marriage.
|5.12.07 @ 11:58AM|#
[i], I get it: if people want surgery to keep from being
murdered, that's a frivolous reason that shouldn't be allowed, but
if they want it because they have money burning a whole in their
pocket and they can't think of any better present to give their
husbands for Christmas, that's totally different, and totally OK.
Makes perfect sense to me.[i]
hmmm
|5.12.07 @ 12:01PM|#
], I get it: if people want surgery to keep from being murdered,
that's a frivolous reason that shouldn't be allowed, but if they
want it because they have money burning a whole in their pocket and
they can't think of any better present to give their husbands for
Christmas, that's totally different, and totally OK. Makes perfect
sense to me.[/i]
hmmm
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