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The President's Wartime Service
At a press conference with President Bush, Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe offered "apologies for the fact that" his country's wartime sex slaves "were placed in that sort of circumstance."
Bush's response: "I accept the prime minister's apology."
[Via Roderick Long.]
|5.1.07 @ 11:09AM|#
Is this a matter of the President's response being translated into Japanese and back again?
SPD|5.1.07 @ 11:17AM|#
"Mr. Prime Minister, what did you mean when you said, 'Feel my skills, donkey donkey donkey, donkey donkey?'"
|5.1.07 @ 11:24AM|#
From the text at THP: [Bush] "I think it _ I'm just envisioning
what it would be like to be a young soldier in the middle of Iraq
and realizing that politicians have all of a sudden made military
determinations. And in my judgment, that would put a kid in harm's
way; more so than he or she already is."
He "envisions" what it's like to be a soldier...how fitting. Is it
anything like playing with your GI Joe toys in your youth, mr.
prez? Is that why the purple heart was presented to you?
Jennifer|5.1.07 @ 11:32AM|#
When did Bush become the official spokesman for Japanese sex slaves, that he can accept an apology on their behalf?
|5.1.07 @ 11:35AM|#
Chinese and Korean sex slaves, Jennifer.
Just a heads up, everybody: if you want to learn more about this
topic, choose your search engine terms carefully.
lunchstealer|5.1.07 @ 11:36AM|#
I don't suppose that it occurred to Bush to say something like "I'm sorry our soldiers played a part in the enslavement of women," or something like that?
SPD|5.1.07 @ 11:37AM|#
In all fairness, though, what was the guy supposed to say? "No,
FUCK you, Abe! Now you're not coming to the ranch." Bush isn't the
first person that comes to mind when I think of someone who can
think fast on their feet, so accepting an apology is a diplomatic
move at least.
In any case, it was a public acknowledgment by a national leader of
a wartime atrocity committed by a sovereign power against another.
It's doubtful the U.S. will ever apologize for incinerating 200,000
Japanese civilians, although many will argue we shouldn't and no
one denies that it happened.
|5.1.07 @ 11:38AM|#
Well, the guy apologizing and the guy accepting the apology had
nothing to do with the whole mess, anyway.
Our soldiers played a part in enslaving women? Did I miss
something?
Jennifer|5.1.07 @ 11:39AM|#
In all fairness, though, what was the guy supposed to
say?
How about, "Thanks for your apology, but I'm not the one you should
be apologizing to?"
lunchstealer|5.1.07 @ 11:41AM|#
Just a heads up, everybody: if you want to learn more about
this topic, choose your search engine terms carefully.
Hmm, yeah. That could definitely take you to places you don't want
to go.
Jennifer|5.1.07 @ 11:43AM|#
Our soldiers played a part in enslaving women? Did I miss
something?
It made the news a few days ago: during our occupation of Japan the
Japanese set up brothels for the benefit of American soldiers.
Guy Montag|5.1.07 @ 11:43AM|#
How about, "Thanks for your apology, but I'm not the one you
should be apologizing to?"
Wouldn't that come across as a bit of a diss to the Japanese
President? I thought the proper way for doing this in public is a
simple thank you.
|5.1.07 @ 11:46AM|#
I live in Japan, and just told my girlfriend about this. She
said that it's kind of a joke 'round here that Japanese prime
ministers going to Washington is like Japanese people going to Ise
Jingu.
Well, I guess it's not that funny.
Jennifer|5.1.07 @ 11:48AM|#
Wouldn't that come across as a bit of a diss to the Japanese
President?
Who deserves it. All countries have done vile things in their past;
the thing to do is admit it, make what amends are possible and move
on. Problem with Japan is, it wants to go right to
phase-three-move-on without first going through steps one and
two.
And when you're talking about women locked in brothels and raped
hundreds of times over the course of several months, a weaselly
passive-voice "sorry they were placed in that circumstance" is
almost more insulting than saying nothing.
lunchstealer|5.1.07 @ 11:48AM|#
joe, Many US soldiers used brothels where most of the women were
'comfort women'. They didn't intentionally enslave them, and may or
may not have known of their situation. But they did not,
intentionally or unintentionally, take steps to repatriate or truly
liberate these women.
I'm not saying we're culpable in the way that the Japanese military
was, but nobody involved treated these women properly. Jennifer's
phrasing is perhaps better. Don't appologize to American men for
evils inflicted on Chinese, Korean, and also in some cases Japanese
women, at least not without apologizing to the actual victims
first.
|5.1.07 @ 11:52AM|#
It made the news a few days ago: during our occupation of
Japan the Japanese set up brothels for the benefit of American
soldiers.
Brothels like Vegas-style brothels? or Brothels like the woman is
forcibly taken from home and chained to the bed kind of brothel?
Cause I don't see as much of a moral problem with the former.
GILMORE|5.1.07 @ 11:55AM|#
I agree Bush should have been more tactful in his reply... but
then, isnt it a bit late to be expecting that from this guy?
[off on tangent]
I still enjoy this comment from GWB
""We are working hard to convince both the Indians and the Pakis
that there's a way to deal with their problems without going to
war." ""
"Paikis" being close to the N-word in UK, as major derogatory
towards south asians in general. I dont recall if he ever
apologized.
It's like the plantation owner going, "now leroy, I know you're one
of the good ones...'
Which reminds me of that great mr show episode = "Racist in the
Year 3000."
Didnt clinton apologize to Africa for slavery? Man that takes some
chutzpah. Nevermind the belgians... Clinton make it alllll better!
A Sorry can go a long way. I think he said sorry about the Atomic
bomb as well. 'Hey, whoops! Our bad. Here's a card. And you can
take over our auto industry too."
lunchstealer|5.1.07 @ 11:57AM|#
Abdul,
The latter. More specifically, a 'taken from their homes as their
families are killed and their village burned to the ground, then
shackled and taken aboard a transport to a foreign country where
you do not speak the language and then chained to a bed' kind of
brothel.
|5.1.07 @ 11:58AM|#
lunchstealer,
This is news to me. Are you talking about areas we liberated in
China, Korea, and elsewhere? Or about Americans on occupation duty
in post-war Japan?
|5.1.07 @ 12:05PM|#
I suppose Bush could've started quoting relevant lines from Full Metal Jacket. Yes, that was Vietnam, but it works for this topic as well.
|5.1.07 @ 12:06PM|#
Gilmore: Afghans from Afghanistan, Uzbeks from Uzbekistan,
Turkmen from Turkmenistan, Kyrgyz from Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhs from
Kazakhstan...
As ironic as it is, I don't think Bush can be faulted for following
this pattern and not knowing British derogatory slang.
lunchstealer|5.1.07 @ 12:06PM|#
joe, I don't know all the details, but I believe it was in occupied Japan.
Jennifer|5.1.07 @ 12:09PM|#
I suppose Bush could've started quoting relevant lines from
Full Metal Jacket.
"Me love you long time?"
|5.1.07 @ 12:14PM|#
Pro Libertate | May 1, 2007, 12:05pm | #
I suppose Bush could've started quoting relevant lines from Full
Metal Jacket. Yes, that was Vietnam, but it works for this topic as
well.
Yea, I'd have loved to hear him say: "Hey, you got girlfriend
Vietnam? Me so horny. Me love you long time. "
|5.1.07 @ 12:15PM|#
Jennifer,
Correct, though you left out the obligatory, "Joe". And I believe
there's another line.
joe,
Tsk, tsk. Wrong. Though if you'd quoted Animal Mother, I'd have
lied and said you were right. Is there anything better than a movie
with Adam Baldwin in it? I miss Jayne Cobb.
|5.1.07 @ 12:16PM|#
jimmydageek,
Right. You win the Stanley for this thread. If Bush had said that,
I'd write him in for president in 2008.
|5.1.07 @ 12:19PM|#
Chinese and Korean sex slaves, Jennifer.
There were Japanese sex slaves as well, joe. A significant
percentage of them, mostly poor women from Kyushu and Okinawa.
There were also a couple dozen Dutch women who were taken when the
Dutch East Indies fell.
Jennifer|5.1.07 @ 12:20PM|#
I believe there's another line.
I saw the movie when it first came out, and that line is all I
remember. (And the only reason I do is because it was used in that
stupid 2 Live Crew song that came out a couple years later.)
Correction: I also remember the horrible scene where the sniper
shot that black guy from a distance, and you could see bits of
blood and gore shooting out of him.
I watched most of the movie with my hands over my face. That was my
first, last and only date with some guy whose name I have since
mercifully repressed.
highnumber|5.1.07 @ 12:21PM|#
"I can't hear you."
"I still can't hear you!"
"This is my rifle. This is my gun."
The Wine Commonsewer|5.1.07 @ 12:36PM|#
And when you're talking about women locked in brothels and
raped hundreds of times over the course of several months, a
weaselly passive-voice "sorry they were placed in that
circumstance" is almost more insulting than saying
nothing.
And what, exactly, did the current Japanese government have to do
with this? The people who need to apologize are dead or on senility
drugs.
The Japan that committed the crimes was a monarchy flying the
Rising Sun, which we unceremoniously dispatched with a couple of
nukes.
Maybe Hirohito's grandchildren ought to be the one's
apologizing.
Dave W.|5.1.07 @ 12:36PM|#
If I had a choice between being conscripted into the Japanese
army, or being forced to be a sex slave, I would choose the sex
slave thing.
Doesn't make it right, but does put the whole thing in a more
realistic perspective.
|5.1.07 @ 12:36PM|#
Pro Libertate | May 1, 2007, 12:16pm | #
jimmydageek,
Right. You win the Stanley for this thread...
*sniff* Ahem, first, I'd like to thank the H&R for such thought
provoking posts. I'd like to thank my fans, few as they may be, for
supporting me all these years. I'd like to thank the Great URKOBOLD
for teaching me all of life's greatest lessons...
GILMORE|5.1.07 @ 12:37PM|#
jb | May 1, 2007, 12:06pm | #
Gilmore: Afghans from Afghanistan, Uzbeks from Uzbekistan, Turkmen
from Turkmenistan, Kyrgyz from Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhs from
Kazakhstan...
As ironic as it is, I don't think Bush can be faulted for following
this pattern and not knowing British derogatory slang
I'm sorry = you're assuming Bush knew what those countries even
WERE, and was following some form of logic.
Remember in 2000 when the journalist asked him the NAME of
Musharref, and he had no clue? While he was running for
president?
Also, for fucks sake, he was trying to defuse a potential nuclear
engagement between pakistan and india... You'd think he'd have had
better handling from his people to maybe avoid referring to them in
insulting terms.
Guy Montag|5.1.07 @ 12:41PM|#
Remember in 2000 when the journalist asked him the NAME of
Musharref, and he had no clue? While he was running for
president?
That was just a few months before he was asked about Taiwan and had
to tell the reporter twice that we would do whatever it takes to
defend them.
So what?
Jennifer|5.1.07 @ 12:42PM|#
And what, exactly, did the current Japanese government have
to do with this? The people who need to apologize are dead or on
senility drugs.
Nonetheless, the current Japanese government still needs to accept
responsibility for what its predecessors did, rather than
dilly-dally and pussy-foot around the topic until every last one of
its institutionalized rape victims is dead.
Guy Montag|5.1.07 @ 12:44PM|#
The Japan that committed the crimes was a monarchy flying
the Rising Sun, which we unceremoniously dispatched with a couple
of nukes.
And tens of thousands of Allied troops, alive, wounded and
dead.
Jennifer|5.1.07 @ 12:49PM|#
I'm curious about something, TWC: a few of those women are still
alive today. Very few, no doubt, but some. Since you think the
current Japanese government bears no responsibility for crimes of
hepast, who should be held responsible* if these women
were to sue for damages? Or should the women just suck it up
because shit happens and the government which shoveled it onto them
no longer exists?
*Responsible in a civil case; I'm not saying that the current prime
minister of Japan should go to prison for rape or anything.
GILMORE|5.1.07 @ 12:50PM|#
Guy Montag | May 1, 2007, 12:41pm | #
So what?
So what?
The guy is a shithead, so what.
Please, run around and find some compensatory areas of his genius,
and we'll all happily change our minds. Until then, I'll just see
you as holding your hands over your ears, going "nya nya nya More
American than You nya nya nya"
Bush bashing isnt even bush bashing. Even if the guy had policy
ideas, he's a total fucking boob and couldnt run a 7-11 franchise
much less the US Govt.
The Wine Commonsewer|5.1.07 @ 12:50PM|#
the current Japanese government still needs to accept
responsibility for what its predecessors did
I have a hard time with that because it involves accepting
responsibility for something that you don't/didn't have any control
over.
I do not have a hard time with a public recognition of what was
done, why it was wrong, and a promise that something like that
could not and would not be allowed to happen ever again.
What approach would be acceptable to you?
|5.1.07 @ 12:54PM|#
"Really, Jennifer? You can't remember his name? That is so
interesting."
Oh, c'mon, edward, don't be all in a snit just because Jennifer
never called for a second date.
The Wine Commonsewer|5.1.07 @ 1:03PM|#
who should be held responsible
Who should be responsible to compensate the families of the war
dead that resulted from Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbor and the
five years or war that followed?
Sometimes, people are just out of luck.
Further, if you compensate these women today, you are actually
punishing Japanese civilians (taxpayers) most of whom were not even
born at the time these women were incarcerated and raped.
Essentially, by attempting to right the wrong you perpetuate the
wrong and pass it on to others who collectively and individually
had nothing to do with it. A clear case of punishing the
innocent.
|5.1.07 @ 1:06PM|#
I have a hard time with that because it involves accepting
responsibility for something that you don't/didn't have any control
over
When the women started complaining, it was right after the war and
the people responsible had been allowed to accept plum positions in
the (very deeply connected to the government) business world;
rather than punishing those responsible the postwar government
decided to deny everything and wait for those involved to die out.
They're guilty of conspiracy if nothing else.
Besides that, admitting what happened and paying damages should
have been one of the postwar government's first actions, admitting
what they did wrong. They refused.
Dave W.|5.1.07 @ 1:09PM|#
And tens of thousands of Allied troops, alive, wounded and
dead.
Better 10,000 enemy civilians dead than 10,000 US soldiers dead.
That is the principle at stake here, eh, Montag.
VM|5.1.07 @ 1:18PM|#
Wondering out loud. What would our College Republicans
think?
hmmm.
Death by Snu Snu! hier
|5.1.07 @ 1:34PM|#
Wouldn't that come across as a bit of a diss to the Japanese
President?
Oh, I suppose it might, if Japan had a president.
Sen. John Blutarsky (ret.)|5.1.07 @ 1:34PM|#
Japanese? It was the *Germans* who bombed Pearl Harbor!
cgee|5.1.07 @ 1:37PM|#
Abdul: There are no Vegas brothels, at least no legal ones, since Clark County does not allow legal prostitution.
D.A. Ridgely|5.1.07 @ 1:37PM|#
What Bush should have said:
Thank you, Prime Minister Ginzu - by the way, Laura loves your
knives. Let me just say in response to your apology that 'All Your
Sex Slave Are Belong to Us.' No, no, that's just a little hip
internet humor I learned from the twins one night when we were
doing tequila shooters in the Lincoln Bedroom. Seriously, though,
on behalf of my fellow sex slaves everywhere, I accept your apology
and especially your promise that all sexual slavery in Japan will
be abstinence based in the future. I also appreciate your not
releasing a list of the U.S. clients of your World War II sex
slaves like that blabbermouth Deborah Jeane Palfrey, or Mistress
Debbie, as Dick Cheney likes to call her. But slavery and sex are
only two of the many things we have in common. Let me conclude by
saying again what I said back in 2002, For a century and a half
now, America and Japan have formed one of the great and enduring
alliances of modern times. I thank you.
SugarFree|5.1.07 @ 1:52PM|#
Jennifer,
When I saw it in the theater, this one guy cackled and giggled
through the whole damn thing. Peals of laughter when D'Onofrio
[spoiler alert] blows his head off. He was chuckling while the
little Vietnamese girl [spoiler alert] drowns in her own blood at
the end. He was on a date. I hope that wasn't you.
|5.1.07 @ 1:57PM|#
Actually, Japan did apologize directly to the Japanese comfort women and has set up an agency to compensate them for those actions. If you were a sex worker for Japan during that time, they'll give you something like $17,000. Very few women have come forward to take the offer. Many of them feel that they were partially responsible for their circumstances. Many feel that they were doing what they had to do to survive, and don't need an apology for the sex work, they may need an apology for a government that plunges its citizens into a war that they admitted was unwinnable if the US entered.
|5.1.07 @ 2:03PM|#
OK, that's worse than the woman who kept cackling during the death scenes in Serenity...
tlxtftrf|5.1.07 @ 2:10PM|#
Jennifer
The reason many former sex slaves want an apology from Shinzo
specifically are his actions since he took office. Both his
predacessor Koizumi and the Diet of 1990 issued statements
apologizing to the former sex slaves and saying that "Japan bore
direct responsibility" for what happened. When Shinzo took office
one of the first actions he took was to have the Diet's resolution
repealed and stated that he disagreed with Koizumi on the
issue.
In this context his apology is virtually meaningless. It is like a
murderer saying to a family after confessing his crime in
court,
"Sorry that you don't have a father anymore, but I lied in court
and actually didn't kill him, hope that makes you feel
better."
The real reason Shinzo is issuing this apology to the president is
that the House of Reps. is considering a non-binding resolution
introduced by the Hawaii and California delegations demanding that
Japan take back responsibility for its actions and make a real
apology. Don't know why he went to the president though, he doesn't
have the power to veto non-binding resolutions.
|5.1.07 @ 2:35PM|#
A country full of people whose grandparents were incinerated in their homes or flew planes into ships in the name of a God That Wasn't probably don't care that much about apologizing to a relative handful of abused foreigners. Shinzo Abe gains nothing politically by becoming a Master Apologist.
|5.1.07 @ 2:38PM|#
As for Bush's comment, his inarticulateness becomes somewhat less amusing after example number 1,537,429.
|5.1.07 @ 3:00PM|#
It made the news a few days ago: during our occupation of
Japan the Japanese set up brothels for the benefit of American
soldiers.
Here's the
story from CNN, via the AP, for those who missed it.
A couple relevant paragraphs for those too busy (or lazy!) to click
the link:
An Associated Press review of historical documents and records -- some never before translated into English -- shows American authorities permitted the official brothel system to operate despite internal reports that women were being coerced into prostitution. The Americans also had full knowledge by then of Japan's atrocious treatment of women in countries across Asia that it conquered during the war.
. . .
A December 6, 1945, memorandum from Lt. Col. Hugh McDonald, a senior officer with the Public Health and Welfare Division of the occupation's General Headquarters, shows U.S. occupation forces were aware the Japanese comfort women were often coerced.
"The girl is impressed into contracting by the desperate financial straits of her parents and their urging, occasionally supplemented by her willingness to make such a sacrifice to help her family," he wrote. "It is the belief of our informants, however, that in urban districts the practice of enslaving girls, while much less prevalent than in the past, still exists."
The Wine Commonsewer|5.1.07 @ 3:42PM|#
Besides that, admitting what happened and paying damages
should have been one of the postwar government's first actions,
admitting what they did wrong. They refused.
Shem, the appropriate answer is not to force modern day taxpaying
citizens of Japan to cover the costs of something they had no
control over, no say in, & no vote on.
|5.1.07 @ 3:56PM|#
Very few women have come forward to take the offer. Many of
them feel that they were partially responsible for their
circumstances. Many feel that they were doing what they had to do
to survive, and don't need an apology for the sex work, they may
need an apology for a government that plunges its citizens into a
war that they admitted was unwinnable if the US entered.
That's not why they've refused at all. They refuse because the fund
is provided by private donors rather than the Japanese government
itself, which they feel is an attempt to avoid taking full
responsibility for Japanese culpability.
|5.1.07 @ 3:59PM|#
TWC,
When does that amnesty kick in? What about 90-year-old men who
supported the comfort-women policy in 1945, when they were 28? What
about a corporation that commits an offense a week before I buy
stock in it? Seems to me that countries and companies have a
continuity of existence and remain liable for the harms they've
committed, however long in the past -- at least morally liable.
Jennifer|5.1.07 @ 4:04PM|#
TWC, by your argument it sounds like governments can do damn near anything they please, and only have to pay for it if the current cabinet members and heads of state were the ones directly responsible for whatever atrocities were committed.
The Wine Commonsewer|5.1.07 @ 4:21PM|#
No Jennifer, that isn't what I'm saying, but it sounds like what you are saying is that anyone who is harmed at time has a claim against anyone they can find. Why don't you write those women a check and apologize? After all, you are just as responsible as the Japanese citizens you expect to stand tall and pony up the reparations for something they had absolutely nothing to do with.
The Wine Commonsewer|5.1.07 @ 4:24PM|#
Alt-shem, I don't know when the amnesty kicks in, but there is a
reason why Western Civilization has a Statute of Limitations for
criminal and civil behavior.
What is so difficult to understand about the fact that the Japanese
civilians alive today had NOTHING to do with the war time
atrocities that occured under a vanquished government that does not
exist any longer?
Why do you think people yet unborn should bear the cost for harm
done to people they do not know by a government they did not
elect?
Why?
The Wine Commonsewer|5.1.07 @ 4:25PM|#
Edit:
Why do you think people THAT WERE YET TO BE BORN should bear the
cost for harm done to people they do not know by a government they
did not elect?
The Wine Commonsewer|5.1.07 @ 4:28PM|#
Sorry, Alt-Shelby. Wrong name. The Dale Carnegie lesson about names didn't take well.
tlxtftrf|5.1.07 @ 4:50PM|#
TWC,
I didn't hear that the sex slaves weren't asking for money or an
apology from Abe for the war crimes of the past. What they were
pissed about was that Shinzo repealed the from the Diet's record
both the apology signed by the surviving actual offenders (circa
1990)for the comfort women and then proceeded to state that they
shared responsibility for what happened to them.
In addition the fund for the survivors was set up by the offenders
themselves and their families, it wasn't done on the Japanese
taxpayers' dime.
The problem with Shinzo is that he is asking for forgiveness while
denying culpability for telling victims of rape that it was their
fault it happened.
It's like telling a rape victim it is their fault for wearing sexy
clothes and then wondering why they are upset. "Why are you so torn
up about it, didn't they use lube?"
If he had any semblance of manhood he would restore to public
record the apology of the retired army officials and state that the
modern Japanese government neither condones or denies the actions
of individuals taking orders from the last, now defunct,
government.
As of now he is basically denying the incident ever happened,
destroying evidence to the contrary, blaming the victims, and then
wondering why everyone is pissed off.
The Wine Commonsewer|5.1.07 @ 5:10PM|#
tlxtftrf,
I understand the point you are making and why people are
angry.
This is what I said earlier....
I do not have a hard time with a public recognition of what was
done, why it was wrong, and a promise that something like that
could not and would not be allowed to happen ever again.
You are correct, Shinzo Abe should be a man about it, but being a
man doesn't include forcing (libertarians take note of the word
force) Japanese citizens to make restitution for something
they had nothing to do with.
Secondarily, if you insist that the Japanese government of today
(and by extension, the Japanese people) is liable for the plight of
the Comfort Women, then you must also hold them liable for the
maimed and dead Americans who fought for five long years because
the US was attacked at Pearl Harbor.
To do otherwise is morally indefensible.
Shem asked where the amnesty kicks in. I want to know why the
amnesty is selective.
Jennifer|5.1.07 @ 5:11PM|#
My comment:
TWC, by your argument it sounds like governments can do damn
near anything they please, and only have to pay for it if the
current cabinet members and heads of state were the ones directly
responsible for whatever atrocities were committed.
Response:
No Jennifer, that isn't what I'm saying, but it sounds like
what you are saying is that anyone who is harmed at time has a
claim against anyone they can find.
Then what are you saying? Japan owes nothing to anybody over
this?
If we get a Democrat in the White House next election, combined
with a Democratic controlled Congress, one could say that the US
government of 2009 was NOT the Republican US government who trashed
Iraq from 2003 to the present, and therefore after 2009 the US owes
Iraq absolutely nothing. Nor would the US government of 2009 owe
anything to those people in Gitmo who are undeniably
innocent.
I doubt that is what you'd actually argue, but it sounds like it to
me.
lunchstealer|5.1.07 @ 5:27PM|#
The post-war Japanese government hasn't really owned up to a lot
of the things done under the militarist government. Given that they
kept Hirohito, there's some continuity of blame there, so I don't
see much wrong with saying, "Hey, we acknowledge that these wrong
acts were done by this nation's government. We deeply regret that
these things happen, and we apologize to those who were harmed."
Everyone understands that a 20-something Japanese taxpayer had
nothing to do with it, but it does mean that they don't approve of
it, or dismiss it.
I had a similar reaction when visiting the Yasukini shrine, which
enshrines the kami of Japan's war dead, including Tojo. My friend
who was guiding us around the place said that the huge steel Tori
gates were replacements, as the original steel Tori gates had been
melted to proved war materiel during WWII. My comment was "Yeah,
because they really needed that steel at the bottom of the ocean."
I'd have been more charitable if they'd not considered being hung
for war crimes as 'dying for the emperor'.
The Wine Commonsewer|5.1.07 @ 5:38PM|#
Jennifer, I do not believe that compelling innocent people to
make restitution for something they had nothing to do with is
moral. Doesn't matter whether it is slave reparations, the 20 grand
my buddy Aki got for being locked up in the camps, or raising your
taxes to compensate the victims of the Iraqi invasion that you did
not approve of or vote for. In fact, you vocally made your opinions
known at the time as I recall. Why should you be taxed to
compensate anyone who was a victim of a war policy that you
rejected from the beginning?
On the flip side of that coin, if you agree that the Japanese
government is morally responsible to compensate these women for the
horrors that were visited upon them, I would assert that the
Japanese government is also morally responsible to compensate every
American family whose lives were visited with death, maiming,
destruction, deprivation, and disruption for the duration of the
war that was begun by the Japanese government with the bombing of
Pearl Harbor.
The Wine Commonsewer|5.1.07 @ 5:48PM|#
Lunch,
so I don't see much wrong with saying, "Hey, we acknowledge
that these wrong acts were done by this nation's government. We
deeply regret that these things happen, and we apologize to those
who were harmed."
Nor do I, and I said so. Twice.
Everyone understands that a 20-something Japanese taxpayer had
nothing to do with it, but it does mean that they don't approve of
it, or dismiss it.
I'm not clear with that, are you saying that most Japanese approve
of or dismiss the issue of the Comfort Women?
I'm not so sure that everyone understands. Based on the foregoing
comments, if they do understand, they don't seem to much care,
which is hardly a moral or libertarian position to take.
It all boils down to two wrongs don't make a right.
|5.1.07 @ 6:02PM|#
If we get a Democrat in the White House next election,
combined with a Democratic controlled Congress, one could say that
the US government of 2009 was NOT the Republican US government who
trashed Iraq from 2003 to the present,....
Sure, Jennifer, but it is still the same government,
because it is still under the same charter, the US Constitution. In
fact, if we are supposed to be living under a "government of laws
rather than one of men", one could argue that the constitution
is the government of the United States. In the case of
Japan it doesn't even have the same form of government that it had
prior to WWII.
lunchstealer|5.1.07 @ 6:10PM|#
TWC.
I'm not on the list of those arguing for reparations.
My comments are only tangentially related to you and
Jennifer.
I'd just as soon see the US government apologize for Wounded Knee
(if we haven't already). I believe that we have done so for the
Japanese Internment, and for slavery. I'd like to see states like
South Carolina apologize for Jim Crow and segregation. I'm not a
fan of reparations, except in the immediate aftermath (maybe 20 to
50 years at most). If individual organizations can be identified
who have benefited materially and demonstrably from some war crime
(slave labor, theft of property, etc) such as Daimler Benz and
Volkswagen in the '90s, then I don't think its wholly inappropriate
for reparations to be made.
Dave
Jennifer|5.1.07 @ 6:31PM|#
if you agree that the Japanese government is morally
responsible to compensate these women for the horrors that were
visited upon them, I would assert that the Japanese government is
also morally responsible to compensate every American family whose
lives were visited with death, maiming, destruction, deprivation,
and disruption for the duration of the war that was begun by the
Japanese government with the bombing of Pearl Harbor.
Except that after we won the war, we had the right to dictate terms
of surrender and could have made any reparations claims we wanted
to. The comfort women had no such option.
Smartass--
Point taken.
The Wine Commonsewer|5.1.07 @ 7:01PM|#
How come SASOB gets the point conceded and I don't? :-)
Except that after we won the war, we had the right to dictate
terms of surrender and could have made any reparations claims we
wanted to.
True enough, but it doesn't change the morality issue.
The Wine Commonsewer|5.1.07 @ 7:03PM|#
Lunch, just a point of clarification...
Based on the foregoing comments...
Not your foregoing comments, the comments throughout the thread
made by several different people.
|5.1.07 @ 7:47PM|#
"If individual organizations can be identified who have
benefited materially and demonstrably from some war crime (slave
labor, theft of property, etc) such as Daimler Benz and Volkswagen
in the '90s, then I don't think its wholly inappropriate for
reparations to be made. "
Did I read somewhere in my travels that General Motors was
compensated millions from the U.S. govt after WW 2 for the
factories they lost to allied bombs in Germany? Factories that were
producing vehicles for the nazis?
Jennifer|5.1.07 @ 8:06PM|#
TWC, it still seems to me that your argument boils down to
"don't make governments pay compensation for wrongdoing because
it's the taxpayers who get hurt."
How come SASOB gets the point conceded and I don't?
Because he regularly makes funny comments on my blog, and I just
love guys who do that. I'm quite forgiving when my legs
get all rubbery, alas.
M|5.1.07 @ 8:35PM|#
The problem (one of the problems) of surrogate agency on behalf
of the unconsulted (= gummit) is that aggrieved victims of state
aggression have no recourse other to hold malfeasers' innocent
heirs accountable for their predecessors' debts.
I guess all citizens of any particular society must hope that those
debts will be outweighed by credits to which they arrived too late
to contribute as well. And that hope seems to be what we call the
social contract.
As to why Honest Abe apologized to Mr. Bush, can anyone offer a
better explanation than that any sitting US President is now viewed
as the King of the World? One-stop shopping, how convenient.
|5.1.07 @ 9:01PM|#
Because he regularly makes funny comments on my blog, and I
just love guys who do that. I'm quite forgiving when my legs get
all rubbery, alas.
Aw, I'd bet you got real nice legs, Jennifer, you having been a
dancer at one time. :-)
|5.1.07 @ 10:59PM|#
"What they were pissed about was that Shinzo repealed the from
the Diet's record both the apology signed by the surviving actual
offenders (circa 1990)for the comfort women and then proceeded to
state that they shared responsibility for what happened to
them."
Wait, there's *already* been an apology, and the Diet then tried to
un-apologize? They apologized for the apology? Where can a lazy
person look up this information?
tlxtftrf|5.2.07 @ 12:34AM|#
Mad Max
The apologies were called the Kono Statements
I have compiled a list of links to them here.
http://www.mofa.go.jp/policy/women/fund/state9308.html
http://www.mofa.go.jp/policy/women/fund/state9308.html
I was wrong that the Diet wanted to take them back, the proposal by
Abe was instead to revise the statement to remove any reference to
the Japanese government or military and place the blame entirely on
the private contractors.
A history of Abe's statements and attempted revisions are
here.
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:j1WnT0sGKucJ:japanfocus.org/data/CRS%2520Comfort%2520Women%25203%2520Apr%252007.pdf+Proposed+revisions+of+the+Kono+statement&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=6&gl=us&client=firefox-a
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