Are You There, God? It's Me, Some Asshole.

David Weigel | April 20, 2007

Phew! The statute of limitations is up and the wingnutty "Virginia Tech happened because America forsook God" videos are rolling out. This American Family Radio production ropes Jeff Chamblee into reading some essay that's been making the e-mail rounds, framed as a letter to God about why all these campus massacres happen. The answer:

Reply: "Dear concerned student. I am not allowed in schools. Sincerely, God."

Then follow some examples of things America's done to mock God, like:

"Then, someone said 'Let's let our daughters have abortions if they want, and they won't even have to tell their parents. And we said, 'that's a grand idea.'"

If only Cho Seung-Hi had told his parents that he needed an abortion! Or something.

And no, I'm not sure why it ends with the first scene from The Enigma of Kasper Hauser. Maybe because Werner Herzog forgot about God's wrath?

Comments

|4.20.07 @ 12:40PM|#

Yeesh, another attempt to use the VAT shootings to score political points. And they're getting increasingly disgusting.

I tell you though, I'm becoming increasingly prejudiced against America's Christian community.

|4.20.07 @ 12:42PM|#

Along the same lines:

http://newsbloggers.aol.com/2007/04/18/where-is-atheism-when-bad-things-happen/

|4.20.07 @ 12:45PM|#

I'm pretty sure abortion has nothing to do with the Tech shootings, unless somebody wants to argue that we need more abortions to make sure that unloved children like Cho are aborted before they kill.

ed|4.20.07 @ 12:45PM|#

The statue of limitations is up

Is it an actual marble statue or a metaphorical one?

The Wine Commonsewer|4.20.07 @ 12:46PM|#

I'm pretty sure that video didn't mention VT.

Marc|4.20.07 @ 12:46PM|#

We need more abortions to make sure that unloved children like Cho are aborted before they kill.

clone12|4.20.07 @ 12:47PM|#

Cho was brought up in a Christian household, he attended churches and Bible studies. I doubt his rampage was spurred on by Darwin or Dawkins.

The Wine Commonsewer|4.20.07 @ 12:48PM|#

Marc, I'm not sure Cho was unloved. Aside from that, I know actual people who had horrible childhoods who have yet to kill.

Fluffy|4.20.07 @ 12:52PM|#

Actually, everything I've read so far implies that Cho's rampage was brought on by his godliness.

|4.20.07 @ 12:53PM|#

"The Wine Commonsewer | April 20, 2007, 12:46pm | #

I'm pretty sure that video didn't mention VT."

There was a mention of "Blacksburg, Virginia" in the opening scene....Unless there was another shooting there that I don't know about....

|4.20.07 @ 12:55PM|#

I recall his "manifesto" mentioning that he wanted to emulate Jesus Christ.

Christers are just fucking nutty, you have to admit.

|4.20.07 @ 12:56PM|#

TWC, Mark: Unloved or not, I wonder, if we could go back in time (mental exercise), would pro-life folks agree that aborting Cho would have been moral?

The Wine Commonsewer|4.20.07 @ 1:00PM|#

Dakota, Thanks. I guess I missed that. Haven't been glued to the tube and didn't realize Blacksburg Va was where VT was. Apologies.

I think this video, or something very similar, has been emailed to me a dozen times over the last five years......The delete key looms large.

|4.20.07 @ 1:01PM|#

Only to point out the retardedness (for lack of a better word) of their argument:

God was unable to prevent this massacre (or brought on this massacre) because God wasn't allowed in school? That's saying that God betrayed those who did believe in God simply because some others chose not to believe in him. Right? Where's the logic in this?

I'm not an atheist and do have a strong belief that there is a God, but their argument is just ill-conceived.

|4.20.07 @ 1:01PM|#

With one exception, the Reason comments are way better than the Wonkette comments. Here's an example:

"Dave, you have might be panties to fill. And we're here to watch you." by Sluggo.

[ok, bit of a cheap shot!]

The Wine Commonsewer|4.20.07 @ 1:01PM|#

Lamar, I can give you a list of people that should have been aborted. Problem is, we don't know until it's too late.

|4.20.07 @ 1:02PM|#

Doesn't Cho also rant about "debauchery" and "hedonism" in his videos as well? I've also read that he claimed to see "promiscuity" in the eyes of a female student. If anything, it sounds like Cho was on the same page as the Falwells and Robertsons when it came to the alleged immorality and godlessness of campus life.

The Wine Commonsewer|4.20.07 @ 1:04PM|#

Actually, everything I've read so far implies that Cho's rampage was brought on by his godliness.

Fluff: Actually, every thing Mrs TWC has read so far implies that Cho's rampage was brought on because he is FARGIN' INSANE.

I am totally dependent upon my better half for the blow by blow coverage because I refuse to watch it or read about it. You see, in this way, I only have a few moments of distaste here and there instead of a non stop 24/7 blinding stream of bile vomited at me.

|4.20.07 @ 1:06PM|#

Reply: "Dear concerned student. I am not allowed in schools. Sincerely, God."

Kinda undercuts that whole omniscient, omnipresent, omibenevolent triple threat thingy.

The Wine Commonsewer|4.20.07 @ 1:06PM|#

What about the rich kids? Cho hated the rich and wanted them all dead. Must be a Che-worshipping Marxist. Got Dam Daily Kos did this.

God|4.20.07 @ 1:07PM|#

As long as there are tests (or great sex) on campus, I will be present in school.

|4.20.07 @ 1:08PM|#

The inbred yokels of The Westboro Baptist Church are planning on getting themselves a slice of the action, too.

|4.20.07 @ 1:09PM|#

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to worship any God who would let/cause 32 people be massacred
because my acolytes couldn't impose worship services in public schools.
If one wants to worship the God of the Old Testament, then convert to Judaism and stop calling yourself a Christian.

|4.20.07 @ 1:10PM|#

Disclaimer:

Yes, I know, the WPC doesn't represent any form of Christianity other than their own idiotic, hateful flavor thereof, and that many churches and other religious organizations do great good in the name of God.

|4.20.07 @ 1:11PM|#

So does this fall under the "correlation isn't causation" category? Or does there have to be correlation for it to be eligible?

|4.20.07 @ 1:15PM|#

Last night, on yet another nightly news re-cap of this story, they quoted a survivor from his hospital bed who said that he "saw Satan and he saw God" at V-tech that day.

I sighed to myself and as I flipped the channel, I imagined myself pointing out to this young man the obvious: The fact that the Virgina Tech shooting happened at all, along with every other tragedy and horror that inflicts death and suffering upon us, throws a fatal monkey wrench into the notion of an omnipotent, omniscient, and all loving "God." To throw Satan into the mix only makes it sound more silly. How can an equally mythological Satan be responsible for any evil in the world if God is supposed to be infinitely stronger?

While the video's notion that God allowed 32 people to die to make some point about morality is disgusting, at least it has the virtue of being consistent. After disasters like Katrina or the Asian Tsunami, theologians claim that the human response to these horrors are someone an example of God's benevolence. Of course, where was that God when thousands of people--many of them devout believers--died? Did they have to be dispatched so that God could show his benevolence? A wrathful, hate-filled, God who dispenses death and judgment upon wicked makes more sense.

I'm damn glad that neither such being exists.

The Wine Commonsewer|4.20.07 @ 1:16PM|#

Media, I know someone who acts as a guard at the funerals to keep the Westboro yokels at bay. She carries a shotgun and a Bible. Says those yokels will run if you so much as stomp your foot and give them a dirty look.

|4.20.07 @ 1:22PM|#

"mediageek | April 20, 2007, 1:08pm | #

The inbred yokels of The Westboro Baptist Church are planning on getting themselves a slice of the action, too."

I say, bring on the bikers. They've been doing a fine job so far, hopefully they'll continue that fine job. That way, the nuts can protest without interrupting the funerals.

|4.20.07 @ 1:23PM|#

http://voxday.blogspot.com/2007/04/sympathy-for-devil.html

a woman|4.20.07 @ 1:25PM|#

Maybe OT, but check out this great article in the L.A. Times:

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-brooks20apr20,0,1503941.column?coll=la-opinion-center

Talks about our national tendency to be "traumatized" by events that happen to strangers and how that cheapens real grief.

|4.20.07 @ 1:40PM|#

-a woman

Thanks. Good read.

VM|4.20.07 @ 1:44PM|#

Steveintheknow and a woman (if that really is your name)

kinda like the public displays of sadness after Princess Di(e) did.

|4.20.07 @ 1:46PM|#

"I sighed to myself and as I flipped the channel, I imagined myself pointing out to this young man the obvious: The fact that the Virgina Tech shooting happened at all, along with every other tragedy and horror that inflicts death and suffering upon us, throws a fatal monkey wrench into the notion of an omnipotent, omniscient, and all loving "God." To throw Satan into the mix only makes it sound more silly. How can an equally mythological Satan be responsible for any evil in the world if God is supposed to be infinitely stronger?
"

They'll usually respond with an argument about free will, and God allowing us to make our own mistakes, but that doesn't really help their position.

For instance, God could allow Cho to embark on his rampage, but have him slip on a wet leaf and snap his neck before the first killing. God, being omniscient and existing outside of time, would know how it would play out otherwise. Or He could make the guns jam. Or turn the bullets into duds. Or have the guns fire blanks, or even jujubees.

The 'free will' argument doesn't explain why allowing Cho the freedom to act requires that God not prevent those actions from harming others.

a woman|4.20.07 @ 1:47PM|#

VM--Totally agree. Although I am always sympathetic to victims of violent crime, I don't have the emotional energy, frankly, to mourn the deaths of strangers. I'd be mourning every day.

Yes, that's my real name. Genuine XX chromosomes, too.

|4.20.07 @ 1:58PM|#

I don't have much to add to the conversation, but I just wanted to say that every time I scroll past this post's headline, I laugh. It's a good'un.

|4.20.07 @ 2:00PM|#

"What about the rich kids? Cho hated the rich and wanted them all dead. Must be a Che-worshipping Marxist. Got Dam Daily Kos did this."

The rich kids thing is a side effect of a kid at an Engineering school learning how much English majors make post-graduation.

|4.20.07 @ 2:02PM|#

Re, a woman's link: It's sad that tragedies really have become opportunities for Americans to wallow in the delicious luxury of vicarious horror. So titillating. I think the entire news community must experience mass guilt at the prospect of 'enjoying' a great story.

|4.20.07 @ 2:10PM|#

-moose

Ooh, thats a tough one, I still struggle with the fallen princess. If it weren't for Becks and Posh I don't know what I would do with all that grief up in my trunk.

Corn syzzurp perhaps?

|4.20.07 @ 2:12PM|#

Single-issue whackjobs, whether they're Christians, gun nuts, anti-gun nuts, abortion rights proponents, abortion rights opponents, or whatever, see everything through the warped lens of their single issue, and every conceivable event validates their perspective. These people are only somewhat less insane than Cho. I suspect many of them would like nothing more than to whip out a gun and lay waste to their infuriatingly evil opposition, but they'll need to take a few steps closer to the edge first. Expect some kook to blame this shooting on global warming very soon.

|4.20.07 @ 2:20PM|#

Didn't Al Gore invent guns or something? It's all his fault.

|4.20.07 @ 2:22PM|#

Mad Scientist sees everything as the fault of SingleIssueWhackjobs. It has warped HisPerspective.

|4.20.07 @ 2:23PM|#

< nitpick>They put Moses Lake, WA in the west side of the state at the bottom of Puget Sound when it is 200 miles east in the middle of the eastern side of the state.< /nitpick>

VM|4.20.07 @ 2:33PM|#

Steveintheknow - I recommend BATIN when all gets all crazy.

When world is too much
settle down with a good book
and bate your stress out!

|4.20.07 @ 2:37PM|#

David,

That is the greatest post title ever. I was almost afraid to continue scrolling down because I was sure there was no way to article could even come close to the headline's brilliance, but I was wrong. Great work.

The Wine Commonsewer|4.20.07 @ 2:49PM|#

Mackie, Good point about vicarious horror.......which is best experienced in a Stephen King novel.

Guys, please don't beat on Stephen King, it's just a metaphor. :-)

Jon H, smirking about English majors and what they earn. Think you're right.

The Wine Commonsewer|4.20.07 @ 2:50PM|#

Hope metaphor was the right word. I hardly know the diff between and adjective and an adverb.

bill|4.20.07 @ 2:50PM|#

Well if God has a plan for everyones life then He is the one responsible for the killings right? Why didn't He save those people? Because He wanted them dead.

The Wine Commonsewer|4.20.07 @ 2:51PM|#

Mad Sci, you left out Cock Fights, Single Issue Voter would not be pleased.

|4.20.07 @ 2:54PM|#

Good book?

Someone took my leather bound copy of Heather Has Two Mommies. What's a good sub?

Is George Will's Men at Work: The Craft of Baseball a suitable substitute?
If not, what about Everyone Poops?

VM|4.20.07 @ 3:02PM|#

The Lion and the Witch in the Wardrobe, of course.

With the "Heavy Petting Zoo" scene on page... wait for it... 69. (also the leather bound version)

|4.20.07 @ 3:16PM|#

A few points:

1. The red spot on the map alleged to be Littleton is more like Glenwood Springs, nearly 200 miles from Littleton. For some reason I can't help pointing out whenever Christers make a mistake (e.g., the jackasses who cut me off in traffic always seem to have fish on their cars).

2. God is omnipotent, right? He can get into schools whether people want him there or not. The only possible conclusion to draw is that god hates kids.

|4.20.07 @ 3:18PM|#

I thouht god was omnipotent. It must of been some badass who threw god out of school.

Doc|4.20.07 @ 3:20PM|#

What's even better is that the German (original) title of "The Enigma of Kasper Hauser" is...:


"Every man for himself. God against all."



At least that's what ol'Werner says on the commentary.

|4.20.07 @ 3:22PM|#

It must of been...

I now understand what drives a man to kill.

|4.20.07 @ 3:27PM|#

"Dear concerned student. I am not allowed in schools. Sincerely, God."

A Yiddish term for Synogogue is schul, which means school. Doesn't make sense that god wouldn't be allowed in the temple built to worship god.

|4.20.07 @ 3:38PM|#

The concensus is that God does not exist. Therefore our moral decisions are based upon whatever we choose to believe. Cho believed what he did to be right. Who are we to argue with that? With no God, right and wrong are to be decided by majority rule? That is not a usable method.
Dig deep and give me a seriously plausible origin for our moral values. One that is justifiable for everyone to follow the rules of order.
If we are just gonna make up rules as we deem necessary, I have some suggestions myself. As did Cho I would guess.

With no God there is no moral origin. And anything is justifiable.

|4.20.07 @ 3:41PM|#

What's the opposite of Amen?

|4.20.07 @ 3:44PM|#

Amen, brotherben!

Would survival of the human race count as a justifiable origin for our moral values? At least the ones that tell us not to harm others?

|4.20.07 @ 3:44PM|#

bben: To respond to your dubious claim:

"What is hateful to yourself, do not do to your neighbour. That is the whole Torah; the rest is just commentary. Go and study it."

He says that the rest is commentary, including the part about Genesis, and an all powerful God controlling everything. I think you are being cavalier about 2500+ years of human history.

|4.20.07 @ 3:50PM|#

It must of been...

I now understand what drives a man to kill.


Their, their.


(Thanks, TWC)

|4.20.07 @ 3:50PM|#

Yeah it sure is wacky for Christians to not want to murder babies. Man they are soooooo crazy. Pass me some more weed man 4:20 for LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!

|4.20.07 @ 3:51PM|#

clarification: The rabbi didn't say Genesis was just commentary, I merely took the good rabbi at his word.

VM|4.20.07 @ 3:53PM|#

what a beautiful day for...

for... skylarking

(ten points if you can guess which video that's for...)

|4.20.07 @ 3:53PM|#

Who said?
What was his inspiration?
Can I also choose a line from a book and base my value system on it?
Isn't it the commonly held belief that the Torah was inspired of God?

I think you are being cavalier about several thousand years of belief in God.

|4.20.07 @ 4:03PM|#

Which god, there seems to be quite a few to choose from?

|4.20.07 @ 4:07PM|#

When world is too much
settle down with a good book
and bate your stress out!

Ahhhhh.

Your merkin-tile wisdom has allowed me to see the light.

I feel muy-better now.

|4.20.07 @ 4:08PM|#

"Pope Benedict XVI has revised traditional Roman Catholic teaching on so-called "limbo," approving a church report released Friday that said there was reason to hope that babies who die without baptism can go to heaven." - From Yahoo News

Again, I hold the belief that there is a God. However, I refuse to associate with any religion (Roman Catholics, Christians, etc) that condemn (limbo) innocent new-borns who die before they can be baptized, which is pretty much what this ruling boils down to. It pretty much says, "Well, there's no rule saying that they go to heaven, and there's no rule saying that they go to hell. That said, we can hope that they go to heaven." Wow, big revelation.

|4.20.07 @ 4:09PM|#

...and I mean that most sincerely...

I understand the general dislike and disbelief of God in America. Most folks judge christianity according to the "christians" they see.
God, as I understand God, wont respond favorably where he isnt welcome. He has laid out the rules and the consequences. After that it is our choice. Harsh, but that's the way it is.
When I was a kid, my dad gave me rules. If i broke em he beat my ass. Harsh, but not veangeful or unloving. God is the same way. He wants us to make the right decisions, but we are free to do what we want.

It is very curious to me how we ridicule God and deny His existance and when something awful goes down, like this shooting, or Katrina, we then have balls enough to say, "where the fuck was God?" Why did God let this happen?
You cant have it both ways.

|4.20.07 @ 4:11PM|#

Dumbest thing I've heard all day. I work on the campus of a large, urban state university (about 22,000 kids) and you honestly can't throw a rock without hitting someone holding a prayer meeting, preaching on the quad, or handing you a copy of the New Testament.

|4.20.07 @ 4:11PM|#

Mark, if you really believe that abortion rights proponents are a bunch of pot-smokers who think Christians are wacky for not wanting to murder babies, well, thank you for illustrating my point.

|4.20.07 @ 4:12PM|#

Seriously... I've tried.

ed|4.20.07 @ 4:13PM|#

...we then have balls enough to say, "where the fuck was God?" Why did God let this happen?

Rational people don't say such things.

|4.20.07 @ 4:13PM|#

Who said? Hillel.

What was his inspiration? A prospective convert asked him to explain the bible.

Can I also choose a line from a book and base my value system on it? You can base your values on literature written by man, but atheists can't? Your assumption that atheists lack moral guidance is insulting.

Isn't it the commonly held belief that the Torah was inspired of God? Sure, but given that there was no heaven or hell in ancient Judea, it's hard to see how it supports your point.

I think you are being cavalier about several thousand years of belief in God. What are you a parrot? Either come up with your own thoughts, or steal them from somebody other than me.

|4.20.07 @ 4:18PM|#

I understand the general dislike and disbelief of God in America.

Do you mean the America on the North American continent where ~85% of the population profess a belief in the Christian concept of God? Which other America are you referring to?

It is very curious to me how we ridicule God and deny His existance and when something awful goes down, like this shooting, or Katrina, we then have balls enough to say, "where the fuck was God?" Why did God let this happen?

I can't speak for other non-theists, but I never asked myself this question and it never occured to me to ask this question since I don't believe in supernatural beings.

Only believers can ask this question. It appears the leading theory amongst that crowd was that She was off playing skeeball in New Jersey and wasn't paying attention.

|4.20.07 @ 4:33PM|#

"Your assumption that atheists lack moral guidance is insulting."
I am not suggesting they have no moral guidance. I am suggesting that it must be moral guidance contrived by man. After hearing me, you are well aware that not everyone should be making such decisions. What I am suggesting is that without God, moral law is simply what each person chooses. If what the athiest down the street has chosen is that murder or rape is just fine thanks, you have no moral argument against his choice.
You may have a legal one, but as with slavery, if he doesnt agree with the law, he may choose to break it on moral grounds.

I am still waiting for a plausible origin for moral values.

|4.20.07 @ 4:35PM|#

de stijl,
I can see how She would do that.
Skeeball is the bomb!

|4.20.07 @ 4:36PM|#

I'm not sure why it ends with the first scene from The Enigma of Kasper Hauser.

I have dial-up, so I haven't been able to see the videos in question, but based on the comments, I'd say it might be because the person who made them lived in a dank cellar for the first 15 years of his life.

|4.20.07 @ 4:42PM|#

I am still waiting for a plausible origin for moral values.

Reason. (Not the website. The other one.)

|4.20.07 @ 4:49PM|#

John Couey used reason to justify raping a killing a young girl.
Cho used reason before shooting nearly 3 dozen at VT.
Hitler used reason before gassing millions of Jews.
Bush used reason before invading Iraq. (a stretch I know)

Im thinkin, nahhhh, not plausible

a woman|4.20.07 @ 4:55PM|#

brotherben--

You're assuming that what you read in the Bible, etc. is straight from the mouth of God. Don't forget the Bible was written by men, also, so how is that different than an atheist following a book written by men? It's pretty arrogant to assume the Bible was somehow written by God but no one else's book was. People write books. I don't think deities have time.

|4.20.07 @ 5:01PM|#

Any number of religous groups have used religion for justifying the slaughter of other groups. If you argue that those groups weren't using their religion correctly, we could say the same thing about the "reason" of Couey, Cho, Hitler...

|4.20.07 @ 5:11PM|#

"Cho used reason before shooting nearly 3 dozen at VT."

Then what was all that clap about dying just like Jesus?

"Hitler used reason before gassing millions of Jews."

Hitler was a christian who admired Nietzche. That's not the same as an atheist.

Bush used reason before invading Iraq.

God told Bush to invade Iraq.

|4.20.07 @ 5:13PM|#

I am not suggesting they have no moral guidance. I am suggesting that it must be moral guidance contrived by man.

As long as we're talking humans here, all of man's moral guidance is contrived by man since man invented God(s). Or are you seriously suggesting that you can have a dialogue with a God to put your moral quandaries to him? As in do you hear voices?

After hearing me, you are well aware that not everyone should be making such decisions. What I am suggesting is that without God, moral law is simply what each person chooses.

With a God, moral law is simply what each person chooses as well. Or are you saying that the people who murder their family because a God told them to do it is not moral? Or perhaps the people that a God told to murder their enemies and male children and take their female children for themselves were not moral?

If what the athiest down the street has chosen is that murder or rape is just fine thanks, you have no moral argument against his choice.

And if the theist down the street has suddenly communed with a God and that God told him to walk into a mall and start shooting, you have no moral argument against his choice either? I dare you to make less sense.


You may have a legal one, but as with slavery, if he doesnt agree with the law, he may choose to break it on moral grounds.

And as long as you're dealing with humans, they can rationalize it any which way they want. They can tell themselves I'm keeping slaves because God said it was ok to enslave my neighbors in the bible. Or they can convince themselves that one faction isn't like them and that it's OK to enslave them. A belief (or lack thereof) in a deity is largely immaterial to morality. Morality is simply a human construct to help you feel less bad about yourself and your actions.

|4.20.07 @ 5:15PM|#

I am still waiting for a plausible origin for moral values

Why? It seems like the implausible ones have suited you just fine.

|4.20.07 @ 5:16PM|#

Mad scientist,
Yes and therefore reason is unworkable as a source for moral values.

a woman,
yes I am believing that to be true. And also that those men were writing with devine guidance.
As for the difference between a book written by man or one written by God? are you serious?

It would seem to me that a disbelief in God would be more arrogant.

The time issue is a good point, with the eternal skeeball tourneys and such

|4.20.07 @ 5:23PM|#

Thank you all for the discussion. Time is up and I must go make the donuts.

I hope you have a fine weekend. We really should take this up again later. Or not.Makes no difference to me. Peace out

bill|4.20.07 @ 5:45PM|#

brotherben,
You have no understanding of morality at all.

1) Morality deals solely with actions, never thoughts or feelings
2) Morals and morality apply only to sentient beings wherever they exist in the universe.
3) There are two types of morality, objective, which deals with actions between two or more individuals and subjective, which deals with actions that affect only the individual.
4) Since sentient beings survive by the use of their mind the only things that are objectively immoral are the initiatory use of force, fraud or coercion. These are the only actions which deny them the free use of the mind.
5) As you can see objective morality does not need any divine inspiration. It comes from the innate nature of sentience.

jimmydageek|4.20.07 @ 6:01PM|#

brother ben,

I was the first to reply to your question reply to this