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In her column from Reason's May issue, Cathy Young demands more attention be paid to the shame of prison rape.
Frank|4.18.07 @ 12:21PM|#
Who cares? Frankly, rape is an integral part of the prison experience, and serves as a useful deterent to crime. You don't like it, then don't do the crime and you ain't going to prison.
|4.18.07 @ 12:26PM|#
Well, one of the problems, you fucking asshat, is that we have a plethora of so-called "laws" in this country that declare acts like eating bananas on Sunday to be crimes.
|4.18.07 @ 12:29PM|#
I for one care a great deal. The despicable conditions of our prisons, and the way we treat our prisoners, is one of the most neglected stories of our time. Even the dust up over Abu Ghraib had only a smattering of fallout. Attitudes like Frank's are not only disgusting, they are counter productive to the rule of law.
VM|4.18.07 @ 12:34PM|#
What Warren and Mr. Crane said.
Frankie baby, take some advice - vary the grip, try the other hand,
maybe with both - but your self rejection during BATING has gotten
you lashing out in all sorts of directions...
And it's really disturbing, what you're saying.
Frank|4.18.07 @ 12:40PM|#
Well, one of the problems, you fucking asshat, is that we
have a plethora of so-called "laws" in this country that declare
acts like eating bananas on Sunday to be crimes.
If the law says don't eat bannanas on Sunday, you'd best not be
eating bannanas on Sunday, and you ain't going to prison. Everyone
has an obligation to obey every law, you don't obey, you go to
prison, period.
VM|4.18.07 @ 12:42PM|#
...maybe switching to Pepsi Clear would help, too.
do you also get into a karate stance at first chance?
|4.18.07 @ 12:43PM|#
If the law says don't eat bannanas on Sunday, you'd best not
be eating bannanas on Sunday, and you ain't going to prison.
Everyone has an obligation to obey every law, you don't obey, you
go to prison, period.
Your attitude is that of a coward and quisling, and unbecoming that
of a free person.
|4.18.07 @ 12:45PM|#
And on that note, Frank, I wish you an enlighteningly long stay in one of our country's state prisons.
|4.18.07 @ 12:45PM|#
Frank, and every other asshat like him, needs to go to fucking Russia or China, and get the fuck out of the united States of America. These cowards and petty thugs, and those who acquiesce to them, bring nothing but ruin to every honest person.
|4.18.07 @ 1:01PM|#
Frank: I'm with ya, bud. Instead of parole, we should have the ex-cons go to a reaming officer for weekly check-ins.
|4.18.07 @ 1:04PM|#
The social demand for more punishment than lawfully declared (prison sentence) by tacitly approving of prison rape and satirizing it as humor underscores our hypocrisy as law revering citizens with a respect for Human Rights. That is the real issue. We condone and abdicate responsibilty at the same time we laugh at prison rape, and then pretend to stand for Human Rights while claiming the moral authority. I laugh at this too because , perhaps like most people, I don't know anyone in prison.
Take it away Ayn!|4.18.07 @ 1:05PM|#
Did you really think that we wanted those laws to be observed? .
. . We want them broken. You'd better get it straight that it's not
a bunch of boy scouts you're up against - then you'll know that
this is not the age for beautiful gestures. We're after power and
we mean it. You fellows were pikers, but we know the real trick,
and you'd better get wise to it. There's no way to rule innocent
men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down
on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes
them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes
impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a
nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone?
But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor
enforced nor objectively interpreted - and you create a nation of
law-breakers - and then you cash in on guilt. Now that's the
system, that's the game, and once you understand it, you'll be much
easier to deal with.
~Dr. Ferris ('Atlas Shrugged' 1957)
|4.18.07 @ 1:09PM|#
Frank,
Can´t you see that rape is still a crime if done in prisions? Why
do you care so much about the ban on bananas and don´t care about
rape? Both are criminal acts and in your self-rightouness you
should care about both...
|4.18.07 @ 1:12PM|#
I laugh at this too because , perhaps like most people, I don't
know anyone in prison.
==================================
I suppose the everyone you know has less melanin and better legal
representation. In any case, prison rape is a huge mental health
issue, and of course it has profound medical implications as
well.
This sort of intentional ignorance of a major human rights issue
will eventually come back to bite every one of us in the ass unless
something is done.
|4.18.07 @ 1:16PM|#
Matt, many of us laugh everytime the US talks about "human rights." We're so focused on abortion and foie gras that we can't recognize how hypocritical we are.
|4.18.07 @ 1:19PM|#
Ayn Rand?
-Howard Roark stood at the edge of the cliff naked. One of the
first lines in The Fountainhead
Sounds like an obscenity charge..should Howard Roark be raped?
|4.18.07 @ 1:21PM|#
Shoot, there's no right or wrong. For instance, the recent
shootings at VT were simply expression. Why let people exercise
some sort of victim's veto over this fully valid form of speech? In
fact, killing everyone who has been arrested is equally valid to
letting them remain free. Right?
I don't like real criminals or violent people any more than the
next guy, and my pity for their various plights is limited.
However, I'd prefer that the state and any other people acting in
my name draw the line at allowing violent acts to be
committed against anybody (without due process, incidentally, since
prison rape and battery aren't listed under the statutory
punishments for any felony, as far as I know) in "our" custody. If
we're going to allow something this heinous be done to any
criminal, whether well behaved, incarcerated for a relatively minor
offense, whatever, why not torture them, too? Why not kill
them?
I have no problem locking up violent people for life or in
depriving them of certain amenities or freedoms possessed by the
rest of us, but I have serious qualms with cruelty and
inhumanity.
He was fucked to death when we|4.18.07 @ 1:22PM|#
Prison rape is merely a symptom (albeit a lurid one) of what
really ails us. We've become way too cavalier in depriving people
of their freedom.
I'd say it's a result of class warfare, but it's a well known fact
that, here in the USA, we don't do the class warfare thing.
Right?
|4.18.07 @ 1:29PM|#
Agree with cavalierness remark; disagree with class warfare statement. Even tossing out the silly crimes, there are a lot of people in prison for crimes of violence against property and people. Sure, financial status plays no small role in that, but even poor people aren't thinking that murderers and robbers should be walking the streets.
|4.18.07 @ 1:30PM|#
My skin color should be irrelevant in grasping the understood aim of my honest social commentary. Axes to grind. But yes I am very white and have to stay out of the sun lest I freckle. I am melanin challenged, as it were, while most of my friends and classmates are not. I hope that they are not destined for prison like you suggest is their likely fate.
|4.18.07 @ 2:14PM|#
I don't understand why the admonition is always to ignore Jane/Juanita/Frank/whatever. I get a huge bang out of seeing people disagree with him/her. If you recognize the joke, yes, ignore it, but don't stop other suckers from falling for it. He/she has great timing. Someone who should know better always gets caught in his/her trap. Hilarious. Every time.
VM|4.18.07 @ 2:19PM|#
High#:
I for one welcome the frank overloard (sic: overloaded overlord),
'cept this time he interrupted my bating.
as a result, I got a horrible knot in my merkin. Moose merkin.
mmmmmmm.
Asharak|4.18.07 @ 2:33PM|#
I don't understand why the admonition is always to ignore
Jane/Juanita/Frank/whatever. I get a huge bang out of seeing people
disagree with him/her. If you recognize the joke, yes, ignore it,
but don't stop other suckers from falling for it. He/she has great
timing. Someone who should know better always gets caught in
his/her trap. Hilarious. Every time.
Agreed, although Grand Chalupa is real, and I've seen him defend
prison rape on H&R while ironically claiming to be a
libertarian (I suppose he thinks people in prison on drug charges
deserve to be raped as well).
|4.18.07 @ 2:46PM|#
highnumber,
Yes, long ago I recognized that about 75% of our trolls are one of
us regulars having way too much fun with the rest of us. However,
our casual readers don't know this, so it's occasionally just too
tempting to pen a response.
I miss your blog. It was cutting edge, for its time. Too bad
Reason didn't see fit to continue subsidizing it. Maybe
you could get an NEA grant? I used to be funded by the NSF. . .not
for doing anything, just for existing.
Incidentally, maybe we should vote for the Top Ten Hit & Run
Trolls of All Time? With a period for nominations, of course.
|4.18.07 @ 2:49PM|#
estimates of how many male inmates experience forced sex during
incarceration range from nearly 10 percent to less than 1
percent.
Traslation: we have no freakin' clue how often it happens.
As for those who condone this as a type of justice, I must ask: do
you really see justice in allowing violent criminals to indulge
their predatory instincts? Do you really want the criminals to be
in charge of administering justice?
|4.18.07 @ 2:52PM|#
Do you really want the criminals to be in charge of administering justice?
Right. Another reason against allowing this sort of thing. I think
making them live like choir boys--though that may be a bad example,
come to think of it--is the most appropriate punishment. That or
enslaving them (which is likely Constitutional, as has been noted
here before).
|4.18.07 @ 2:55PM|#
Iv'e been to prison. I was in a Texas state jail for a state jail felony ( possesion of marijuana > 2 ounces ). They dont ussually put you in jail for marijuana charges but i had several dirty drug tests for methamphetamine even after a probation extension. Ive cleaned up since then however. Rapes didnt happen every day. In fact i never witnessed one but they did happen. Ussually they happen to gays and people nobody likes. But where i went the prison official were inscistent that rape was a crime and you would be charged if you did it. The main problem is the culture of no snitching. If you get raped and you snitch you probably will get stabbed or worse. If you witness a rape and snitch you will be stabbed or worse. People know this and use it to their advantage. If no guards are watching its bassicly anything goes.
|4.18.07 @ 3:11PM|#
hi# (the lake looks okay today. nothing special though.), it'd
be funny if only one person fell into the trap.
but no, this being H&R, people love to pile on in righteous
indignation and the fervor of proving how stridently libertarian
they can be.
so it's not to keep one person from falling into the trap so much
as it is to avoid twenty people turning troll's bait into an
opportunity for chest-beating.
|4.18.07 @ 3:18PM|#
The social demand for more punishment than lawfully declared (prison sentence) by tacitly approving of prison rape and satirizing it as humor underscores our hypocrisy as law revering citizens with a respect for Human Rights.
Since rape of *female* prisoners doesn't get a humorous byline, I
conclude that we don't respect Human Rights, but we do respect
Women's Rights.
|4.18.07 @ 3:29PM|#
Mr Crane,
Point taken. The pile-ons get really stupid really quickly.
Sorry about the lake. You'll get better days. Saturday should be
gorgeous.
I'll be in Minnesota :-(
|4.18.07 @ 3:43PM|#
highnumber,
You call it Minnesota, we call it tundra.
I lived there for a year in 1991-92, and I'm still not fully
thawed.
|4.18.07 @ 3:46PM|#
If the surveillance state can't stop crime in lockdown-able
buildings where they already have a high ratio of wardens-to-wards
and presumably all the surveillance technology they need...
Maybe that should be the "if they can put a man on the moon"
analogy against the surveillance state. If the state can't stop
prison rape in prisons, how are cameras on every corner going to
help? How are wiretaps going to help? How is the Patriot act going
to help?
VM|4.18.07 @ 3:52PM|#
High#: Mrs. Number's family from there?
is the toddler feeling better? is the Missus?
Keith - they put a man on the moon? What next? Andy Kaufman in a
wrestling match?
when the front came through here yesterday, the lake was
fantastically beautiful! white caps! clear sky. great lighting.
Amazing.
|4.18.07 @ 3:57PM|#
re: Since rape of *female* prisoners doesn't get a humorous
byline, I conclude that we don't respect Human Rights, but we do
respect Women's Rights.
Au contraire, there are plenty of willing comedy audiences for
female on female rape, I am sure, thanks to the stereotype of
female prisoners not being a relatable identity to the average
citizen. Its just not even talked about if it does exist, which it
probably does. The male on male prevalence and folkloric degree of
prison rape is reknown and unmatched in conventional public
discourse for a reason...It exists and is a serious crime. I was
pointing to our humanistic idealism/misanthropy duality as we
imagine ourselves such liberty seekers and protectors.
|4.18.07 @ 4:08PM|#
My understanding was that all female prisoners are extremely attractive and have hot tubs in their cells. Is this not true?
|4.18.07 @ 4:21PM|#
I got a joke for you guys.
--------------------------------------
So, two guys get busted for marijuana possession. The judge, having
one of his lenient days, tells them that they can serve their
sentense by doing a month of community service, where they will go
around and try to turn people away from drugs. At the end of the
month they would have to come back, and report on how well they
did.
... a month passes, the two find themselves infront of the judge
again...
'Well how many people did you help', the judge asks the first
guy.
'17', he replies.
'Oh, well thats not bad. How did u do that?'
'I explained to them how badly drugs ruined my life, and some
actually took it to heart'
'Good job, you're free to go', says the judge.'And how many did you
help?'
'357', replied the second guy.
'Holy Shit', the judge exclaimed, 'How did you do that?'
'Well, I've always been a visual type of guy, so I drew them a
diagram '
'Bailiff, can you bring this man a piece of paper and a pen, I want
to see this diagram.'
The second guy drew a small cicle, next to a 4" circle.
'I dont get it', said the judge.
'Well I drew this, and told them; the smaller circle is your
asshole, the larger circle is your asshole in jail'
--------------------------------------
As dispicable and reprehensible as I find the idea prison of rape,
I chuckled the first time I heard that one.
|4.18.07 @ 4:56PM|#
The way I saw it , you had two choices.
You could fight em, or you could just relax and let em do their
thing. If you fight, they just gonna get help and its gonna be
worse. May as well relax and it'll be over soon enough.
|4.18.07 @ 5:05PM|#
Pro Lib,
I put the kibosh on the trip in January. I was granted a reprieve
only until April.
Minnesota in January? My wife is no longer authorized to plan any
trips.
I suppose Martha Stewart got the hot-tub.. Happy fantasies,
boys.
Melanie,
If there was a happy fantasy there, your Martha Stewart reference
nixed it.
|4.18.07 @ 5:07PM|#
I completely agree with you, keith. Considering the state of
prisons regarding rapes and the occasional riot, why isn't there
complete surveillance inside of them? I swear if I ever do
something to get me sent to the big house I hope I can end up in
one of those Supermax prisons I've seen on the Discovery Channel,
because those look like the safest places to do time.
I really can't figure it out. Would having cameras viewing every
square inch of a prison be a civil rights violation? Too expensive?
Or are they afraid they could lead to lawsuits once rapes and
assaults are caught on camera? What does the prison guards' union
think?
|4.18.07 @ 5:09PM|#
highnumber,
I remember a January there when it didn't get higher than zero
degrees for something like ten days. The sun was irrelevant.
|4.18.07 @ 5:10PM|#
By the way, here's a great argument for Ron Paul as president. I'd imagine an executive order ceasing federal prosecutions for drug possession, plus immediate pardons for non-violent drug offenders would go a long way in making federal and state prisons safer.
Reformatory for Men Veteran|4.18.07 @ 5:37PM|#
As a veteran of our prison system (albeit in enlightened
Minnesota, as opposed to barbaric Texas or Arizona) I saw all sorts
of severe ass kickings, but I never saw a violent rape
I did see weaklings get "turned out" by predatory inmates
But it was a capitalist transaction kind of thing. One that
involved pressure from debt and/or promises of protection in return
for hand jobs, blow jobs, or even buttsecks.
ask these guys (2 decades later) if they were raped in prison, and
their overwhelming answer (beyond flat denial that it ever happened
at all) would be "yes"
but they went into it at least as willingly as a cash strapped
family signs on to a nasty balloon payment/equity devouring style
mortgage, or the females (or males even) who decides renting
strangers access to their nether regions beats getting a real
job
the notion that guys are getting beat silly and ass raped left and
right in prison strikes me as a folklore/urban legend type
deal
no one's gonna ass rape someone unless the victim plays along to
some degree
would you blow a guy to save yourself from 10 fistfights a
year?
think of your teeth!
Melanie|4.18.07 @ 5:53PM|#
Melanie,
If there was a happy fantasy there, your Martha Stewart reference
nixed it.
Yep. Totally my intention, I assure you.
Time for class. I'm goin' in, cover me.
|4.18.07 @ 6:21PM|#
Someone help me. Does Reformatory for Men Veteran make a lick of
sense, or not? I can almost discern a point in that post (but,
alas, not a period), but I really can't figure out the
message.
This is a bleg!
Law Student|4.18.07 @ 6:52PM|#
JF-
He's basically rationalizing the agreed-upon contract of prison
rape on the grounds that both free parties freely decided and
concluding that no rape takes place because of this fact of
freedom. He is missing the point, resulting in others not getting
it, because he denies or omits the reality of coercion in unequal
power structures in a prison where might is right, a fact of which
others are aware. The "rapee" is not really making a
"free"decision, faced with two abusive choices as if a third, law
and order, does not exist.
law student|4.18.07 @ 6:58PM|#
His Point:
getting turned out by a predatory inmate is not violent rape
Does he make sense?
No, totally incoherent and specious.
law student|4.18.07 @ 7:26PM|#
He also uses the phrase "violent rape" which makes me wonder
about his views and definitions of plain old-fashioned "rape".. By
his "logic" : If we both agree that you won't harm me if I let you
have sex with me, then this is not violent rape, it may be rape,
but is definitely okay and to be expected and justified, but
nonetheless I agreed with you and entered freely into this
exchange. This is appeal to force...ad baculum...a formal
fallacy...Gosh I love distractions...
What would we do without them?
Take Care
|4.18.07 @ 8:08PM|#
One thing omitted from Young synopsis, of course, is the racial
aspect:
"The Culture of Prison Sexual Violence":
Lockwood identified characteristics of targets and aggressors
and salient
features of different kinds of aggressive incidents important to
understanding the
culture of prison sex. He found targets were significantly more
likely to be white,
while aggressors were significantly more likely to be
black.
Does the fact that this doesn't match the current PC attitude that
"blacks are victims and whites are oppressors" have anything to do
with the fact that it's allowed to continue?
anonymous coward|4.18.07 @ 8:23PM|#
Au contraire, there are plenty of willing comedy audiences
for female on female rape, I am sure, thanks to the stereotype of
female prisoners not being a relatable identity to the average
citizen. Its just not even talked about if it does exist, which it
probably does.
BoundHeat.com
Internet's finest original and uncut movies about sapphic women in prison and white slaves.
Women in prison films
Bound Heat is entirely dedicated to the genre of women in prison and beautiful lesbian erotica and white slavery.
melanie|4.18.07 @ 8:33PM|#
exactly my point...thank you for giving us fictionalized prisoners in the form of actresses straight from Hollywood tired of waitressing and serving sex
|4.18.07 @ 9:47PM|#
Agreed, although Grand Chalupa is real, and I've seen him
defend prison rape on H&R while ironically claiming to be a
libertarian (I suppose he thinks people in prison on drug charges
deserve to be raped as well).
I haven't posted in a week and you're still obsessed with me?
Never defended prison rape.
How bout getting your self worth some other way than cowardly
typing messages to people you don't know and saying things on
anonymous internet site that you would never have the balls to say
in person?
|4.18.07 @ 11:12PM|#
Quote:
"While you would have to scrape the bottom of the Internet to find
people saying that the fear of sexual assault is a good deterrent
to would-be lawbreakers, it is safe to say that prison rape is not
a high priority for most American voters."
You don't have to scape the bottom of the Internet barrel to find
that. Just scrape the government barrel. Have you never heard of a
"Scared Straight" program where the state law enforcement officials
take teen-age boys who are in some small trouble for a tour of the
State Prison? There, the rules are laid out clearly for those
teenagers. Mess up and get caught, and you will be in here as
Bubba's new bride.
So the state is saying, both explicitly and by its actions, that
sexual assault is a good deterrent to would-be lawbreakers. And the
state is not only saying that, IT IS DELIBERATELY USING the threat
of that sexual assault.
I'm afraid sexual assault in prison will never be stopped as long
as the state profits from it.
|4.18.07 @ 11:35PM|#
"While jokes about male-on-female rape are widely viewed as
taboo in this feminist age, male-on-male rape in prison is a
perfectly acceptable and common subject of humor on late-night
comedy shows, in movies, and even in TV commercials."
This actually understates it. Every average sitcom, late night or
not, will _invariably_ toss in a rape joke at any mention of arrest
or prison (and the prospect of getting arrested is a frequent
subject in sitcoms). Always gets a huge laugh; it's a staple.
|4.19.07 @ 8:01PM|#
BTW, Justin Raimondo is an asshat.
Take this piece by Cathy Young, recently downsized out of her longtime perch at the Boston Globe and relegated to the relatively obscure pages of Reason magazine,
What is he talking about? Click here for more (if
you dare read the ramblings of said asshat).
jacques|4.24.07 @ 3:03PM|#
I can only feel sorry for those who take this issue as a joke. Obviously none of you have been victims of crimes by real crimminals. We all have someone in our lives who took the wrong road and just imagine how you would feel if they were raped or murdered. Dont hide behind that " if you did the crime...do the time crap". Remember those who rape in prison are those who rape innocent people upon being released in parole. I hardly met a rapist who is serving a life sentence. So the next time we are crying at a funeral asking why did this happen, we should figure out any improvement methods. Prison is one of those places thats in need of one of those improvements.
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