Let Us Now Praise Famous Race Hustlers

David Weigel | April 12, 2007

Michelle Malkin's new column is about how it's okay to call college basketball players black whores because hip-hop lyrics are gross. Or something.

Is the Sharpton & Jackson Circus truly committed to cleaning up cultural pollution that demeans women and perpetuates racial epithets? Have you seen the Billboard Hot Rap Tracks chart this week?

The number one rap track is by a new sensation who goes by the name of "Mims."

The "song" is "This Is Why I'm Hot." It has topped the charts for the last 15 weeks. Here's a taste of the lyrics that young men and women are cranking up in their cars:

This is why I'm hot
Catch me on the block
Every other day
Another bitch another drop
16 bars, 24 pop
44 songs, nigga gimme what you got…

… We into big spinners
See my pimping never dragged
Find me wit' different women that you niggas never had
For those who say they know me know I'm focused on ma cream
Player you come between you'd better focus on the beam
I keep it so mean the way you see me lean
And when I say I'm hot my nigga dis is what I mean

Good stuff! But Malkin doesn't like it:

Al Sharpton, I am sure, is ready to call a press conference with the National Organization for Women to jointly protest this garbage and protest the radio stations and big pimpin' music companies behind it.

The thing is, Sharpton does denounce "this garbage." When it comes to hip-hop, Sharpton's about as tolerant as Joe Lieberman. Here's a hard-to-find story from the yellowing New York Post archives of one week ago.

Parents and community leaders yesterday threatened to boycott two of hip-hop's biggest artists in the wake of a rapper's alleged attack of a 14-year-old boy who was wearing a T-shirt promoting a rival's label.

Unless The Game and 50 Cent, two of rap's biggest stars, squash their beef, the communities that support them will - in the words of hip-hop pioneers Public Enemy - shut 'em down.

"We put the i-n-g in your bling-bling," Sharpton said. "All of us have children who listen to your music. Some of us listen ourselves. But we don't want to feel like we're investing in the demise of our community."

This is a (although probably not the) reason that Sharpton has credibility, if we can call it that, in this endless national flagellation. He's a cultural scold. This isn't to pick on Malkin, by the way, as plenty of less prominent pundits have made the "why don't these people go after hip-hop?" argument during Imusgate.

I suggest everyone turn for wisdom to the prophet Jay-Z:

I'm like "fuck critics, you can kiss my whole asshole
If you don't like my lyrics you can press fast forward"

UPDATE: Worth noting how many of the editorial cartoons on the Imus meltdown go with the "but really, this is about those blacks and their hip/hop music" angle. 

Comments

dhex, multiverse, nothingness|4.12.07 @ 9:23AM|#

the weirdness here is that conserva-americans are using a justification for asymmetrical culture war. it's like when someone's defending car bombs or suicide bombers by saying "but israel and america are using even worse weapons."

Timothy|4.12.07 @ 9:29AM|#

Okay, I'm not even sure what those lyrics mean so other than the "niggas" and "be with women you never had" I'm confused about how offensive they're supposed to be.

|4.12.07 @ 9:33AM|#

Ooh, I know this game!

Why don't Muslims ever denounce Islamic terrorist?

They do - here and here and here and here and here.

Well, OK, but why don't they do it MORE?

|4.12.07 @ 9:34AM|#

Sharpton may give lip service to denouncing hip hop, but I haven't seen him call for anybody to be fired. When it comes to blacks, Sharpton wants to sit down and work things out. When it comes to whites, he wants them fired. Maybe this double standard is OK for whatever reason, but it certainly doesn't help clarify when someone should be fired from their job. For Sharpton, that determination depends on one's skin color.

dhex, multiverse, nothingness|4.12.07 @ 9:35AM|#

http://www.toothpastefordinner.com/011203/bass-car.gif

|4.12.07 @ 9:37AM|#

I'm confused, Mr. Weigel. You're saying that Sharpton denounces this "garbage", but then you link to an article in which he says, "We put the i-n-g in your bling-bling...All of us have children who listen to your music. Some of us listen ourselves. But we don't want to feel like we're investing in the demise of our community."

He was being vocal about the fact that the rappers attacked a 14-year-old kid, not about the content of their lyrics.

If you're going to defend his "denouncing garbage", at least link to some more relevant material.

dhex, multiverse, nothingness|4.12.07 @ 9:38AM|#

"Sharpton may give lip service to denouncing hip hop, but I haven't seen him call for anybody to be fired."

how do you fire a rapper?

oh yeah, you boycott their products as sharpton alludes to above.

|4.12.07 @ 9:38AM|#

I wish this topic could be dealt with in a rational manner, instead of the current quasi-religious fanaticism. At least we don't suicide bombers in the mix (yet).

|4.12.07 @ 9:38AM|#

I suggest that a better words of wisdom in relation to Malkin's criticism would be "I got 99 problems but a bitch ain't one."

|4.12.07 @ 9:47AM|#

This type of commentary is not only coming from the Michelle Malkin's of the world. Here's yesterday's column from KC Star writer Jason Whitlock. A snippet:

I don't listen or watch Imus' show regularly. Has he at any point glorified selling crack cocaine to black women? Has he celebrated black men shooting each other randomly? Has he suggested in any way that it's cool to be a baby-daddy rather than a husband and a parent? Does he tell his listeners that they're suckers for pursuing education and that they're selling out their race if they do?

When Imus does any of that, call me and I'll get upset. Until then, he is what he is - a washed-up shock jock who is very easy to ignore when you're not looking to be made a victim.

|4.12.07 @ 9:48AM|#

Where's the beef?!

Beef is not what Jay said to Nas Beef is when workin niggas can't find jobs So they tryna find niggas to rob Tryna find bigger guns so they can finish the job Beef is when the crack kids can't find moms Cuz they in a crime box or locked behind bars Beef ain't the Summer Jam for Hot 97 Beef is the cocaine and AIDS epidemic Beef don't come with a radio edit Beef is when the judge is callin you "defendant" Beef, it comes with a long jail sentence Handed down to you in a few short minutes Beef is when your girl come through for a visit Talkin bout "I'm pregnant by some other nigga" Beef is high blood pressure and bad credit Need a loan for your home and you're too broke to get it. Beef is when a gangster ain't doin it right Another gangster then decided what to do with his life Beef is not what these famous niggas do on the mic Beef is what George Bush would do in a fight Yeah, beef is not what Ja said to 50 Beef is more than Irv not bein here with me When a soldier ends his life with his own gun Beef is tryin to figure out what to tell his son Beef is oil prices and geopolitics Beef is Iraq, the West Bank, and Gaza Strip Some beef is big and some beef is small But what y'all call beef is not beef at all Beef is real life happenin everyday And it's realer than them songs that you get at Kay Slay This has been a Black Star PSA From Mos Def, Pretty Flacko, black Dante And the Black Star embassy, B to the K

|4.12.07 @ 9:51AM|#

There's a big difference between "using offensive language" and "using offensive language to target and attack someone who didn't deserve it"

|4.12.07 @ 9:53AM|#

victim: N (vik'-tim): a member of a racial minority who notices or responds to racism

|4.12.07 @ 9:58AM|#

I'm confused, Mr. Weigel.

No, you're not the one who's confused.

|4.12.07 @ 10:05AM|#

How long does rap have to use those lyrics before they become meaningless? Hint: probably around 15 years ago. They've had lyrics like that ever since the hunnies was wearin' Sassoon.

Rap music is a caricature, everyone knows it, especially those that listen to it.

|4.12.07 @ 10:05AM|#

"how do you fire a rapper?"

Assuming you aren't kidding:
(1) You drop them from the label. It's called "firing."

(2) I was really talking about the producers who put rap albums together, but your suggestion that rappers can't be fired can't go unchallenged. Why are rappers different again? Why not fire the record executives who encourage this kind of crap?

(3) How do you fire anybody who works for somebody? It is my understanding, dhex, that a "boss" calls the "fireee" into the office and informs him that he is no longer welcome in that place of business.

I really can't believe that you said a rapper can't be fired. Are you kidding? Was there a joke I missed? Or were you so focused on pushing the superiority of boycotts that you forgot that anybody working for somebody else can be fired?

Joe: The liberal definition of victim is: Everybody except rich, white guys.

|4.12.07 @ 10:09AM|#

Okay, I'm not even sure what those lyrics mean so other than the "niggas" and "be with women you never had" I'm confused about how offensive they're supposed to be.

Timothy, that's nothing to be ashamed of. Many people don't understand today's popular music. Luckily for you, I'm here to help.

Here is a line-by-line translation from the lyrics of Mr. Mims:

----------

This is why I'm hot
I hereby intend to explain why I am so incredibly popular.

Catch me on the block
You will discover that I tend to remain visible within the neighborhood...

Every other day
...but only on alternate weekdays. I am somewhat busy, after all.

Another bitch another drop
I am constantly giving young women rides to various destinations in my vehicle. I sometimes grow weary of this.

16 bars, 24 pop
My vehicle is well-stocked with both candy bars and soda, by way of refreshment for the aforementioned young women.

44 songs, nigga gimme what you got
Unfortunately, my contract terms require me to churn out a great many songs, so I will accept whatever assistance you may wish to render, even if you are not yet fully satisfied with your lyrics.

We into big spinners
My friends and I particularly enjoy playing Twister, but we find the spinner included with the game to be unpleasantly small.

See my pimping never dragged
When I customize my vehicle, I keep enough ground clearance to pass over speed bumps without scraping.

Find me wit' different women that you niggas never had
My listeners, most of you have not had sex with the variety of women I spend my time with.

For those who say they know me know I'm focused on ma cream
I keep to a strict diet, moderating my intake of fatty foods. I am also somwhat lactose intolerant, so dairy products are a constant source of concern to me.

Player you come between you'd better focus on the beam
When getting LASIK surgery done, you are required to try and focus on a small beam of light shining on your eye. I would like to remind you of this, so that in case you are listening to this song while receiving said procedure, you won't forget to look at the light.

I keep it so mean the way you see me lean
Again, my diet is both unpleasant and low in fat. This keeps me both fit and slender.

And when I say I'm hot my nigga dis is what I mean
I have now successfully explained my immense popularity.

----------

Does that clear things up for you, Timothy? As an expert on rap and hip-hop music, I am certain this translation is absolutely correct. I should know; after all, I live in Oregon.

VM|4.12.07 @ 10:10AM|#

the misfits did it, too

"Why is it when ameruka does it, it's not called torture?"

Looks like all of these people who said that the Scarlet Knights Players should get a sense of humor don't find any humor in all of this.

Lighten up guys!

It's now market forces! Advertising was pulled. End of story. The market has spoken.


DEMAND KURV!!!!!

It's the perfect solution. The market solved it.

dhex, multiverse, nothingness|4.12.07 @ 10:12AM|#

"Or were you so focused on pushing the superiority of boycotts that you forgot that anybody working for somebody else can be fired?"

entertainment is a bit more freelance in nature than talk radio, even with the advent of sirius. if you're going to target someone on a label like g-unit, a boycott makes sense. otherwise complaining about violent imagery for a label like that would be like complaining about ridiculous theatrics and satanic imagery in black metal.

which would have been imus' best defense, actually, as he is a "shock jock" of sorts.

|4.12.07 @ 10:14AM|#

Cab | April 12, 2007, 10:05am | #

How long does rap have to use those lyrics before they become meaningless? Hint: probably around 15 years ago. They've had lyrics like that ever since the hunnies was wearin' Sassoon.

Rap music is a caricature, everyone knows it, especially those that listen to it.

Here with go with the rap bashing again. If you wish to remain ignorant about the fact that there's plenty of rap music that does not pertain to "thug life, bling, bitches, and hoes" that's fine and dandy. Just keep it to your dumb, ignorant self.

Baylen|4.12.07 @ 10:16AM|#

jimmydageek,

Regarding your 9:37am comment, this is more apt:

Sharpton also denounced what he called "negro amnesia" among a generation of black people who had forgotten the sacrifices of people who were jailed, beaten and even killed for their involvement in the civil rights movement 40 to 50 years ago.

He took particular aim at rap artists whose violent lyrics refer to women in derogatory terms.

"To think that we have come down dangerous alleys, that we have traveled through the backwoods of terror, that we have survived beatings, been shot down in cold blood doesn't give you the right to call your mama a whore," Sharpton said.

I'm still waiting for Sharpton to have a Bob Barr moment and become a libertarian. It'd be way cooler to have the Rev. on our team than Barr.

|4.12.07 @ 10:17AM|#

Dhex,

It's almost like you're saying there's nothing that can be done about black racists, but since white racists have establishments, we can break them apart. How does this fit into Joe's definition of victimhood?

Don Imus can go to any radio station that will hire him, just as any black rapper can go from a major label to a local publisher.

|4.12.07 @ 10:17AM|#

Jake, Jake, Jake, "lean" has nothing to do with body mass. Lean is a stance, like a "hellified gansta lean."

Everything else was spot on!

|4.12.07 @ 10:19AM|#

Malkin misses the right target. The right target is condescending whites in the media who laud garbage hip hop as "authentic black culture" like black people are these exotic creatures to be seen in a zoo. The very same people who are piling on Imus right now (that is when they are not on his show kissing his ass pushing their books) thought it was great that the song "Its Hard Out There For A Pimp" was nominated for an Oscar.

Yeah portraying women as bitches and whores is disgusting and wrong. When Black rappers do it white elites and media types sit around point and say "oh look at the dangerous negro expressing his authentic culture and the world around him and subverting our racist bourgeoisie standards of conduct". When Imus does it they all have a fainting fit at how anyone could be so cruel and horrible. The hypocrisy and bullshit over this thing is stacking up pretty quick.

|4.12.07 @ 10:21AM|#

jimmydageek, I wasn't bashing rap. Read it again. You seem a bit on edge, anything I can do to help?

|4.12.07 @ 10:24AM|#

Jake, that was a brilliant translation.

|4.12.07 @ 10:26AM|#

Yeah, John, and how come the uptight schoolmarms who break up fights in the hallway are always praising Shakespeare plays that have absurd amounts of violence?

Oh. Right. It's that whole "fiction vs. reality" thing.

|4.12.07 @ 10:27AM|#

Cab,

"Rap music is a caricature, everyone knows it, especially those that listen to it."

car·i·ca·ture (kr-k-chr, -chr)
n.
1.
a. A representation, especially pictorial or literary, in which the subject's distinctive features or peculiarities are deliberately exaggerated to produce a comic or grotesque effect.


You're saying all rap exaggerates in order to produce a comic or grotesque effect? That's not bashing all rap? Had you said some rap you would have a point, but you generalized all rap instead.

|4.12.07 @ 10:28AM|#

Well then Joe, I guess you don't have a problem with Imus. He was making a joke. That whole fiction versus reality thing. Sometimes you surprise me. I never took you for an Imus guy.

VM|4.12.07 @ 10:29AM|#

Cab - jimmy's cloned Noam blow up doll hasn't gotten there yet. he has a BATIN GAP!

|4.12.07 @ 10:30AM|#

I sure as hell hope you sent it overnight mail, VM!

|4.12.07 @ 10:31AM|#

He's a cultural scold.

Understatement of the year.

Also a race-baiting hustler. I'm with Imus on one question: when's Sharpton going to apologize to those Duke lacrosse players? I suspect the Duke students can put up quite a bill of particulars as to the damage they have suffered, but as far as I can tell no harm was done to the Rutgers women aside from hurt feelings. Who deserves an apology more?

Mike Kozlowski|4.12.07 @ 10:31AM|#

...Interstingly, on his show this morning, Imus asked when Sharpton was going to apologize to the Duke lacrosse players. This could be good.

Mike

|4.12.07 @ 10:33AM|#

John,

He was expressing an idea as himself. His slur was used to further the point that he was actually making.

No, John, expressing your genuine opinions in a humorous vein does not allow you to disassociate yourself from them.

I. Self. Divine.|4.12.07 @ 10:33AM|#

...Interstingly, on his show this morning, Imus asked when Sharpton was going to apologize to the Duke lacrosse players. This could be good.

[Makes popcorn]

The Market|4.12.07 @ 10:34AM|#

Ads have been pulled. Which means that I have decided.

Move along, there's nothing to see here.

As libertarians, you have an obligation to shut up and stop bitching the moment that I decide something. And I have decided. I am the real Decider. What more could you want than to see My market forces decide this?

|4.12.07 @ 10:34AM|#

We must immediately ignore the issue of Al Sharpton's wrongdoings, because the person who brought them up has a sordid history when it comes to race relations.

Or something.

VM|4.12.07 @ 10:36AM|#

"What more could you want than to see My market forces decide this?"

why, MATT DAMON humping the DEMAND KURV, of course.

(and I expect you to give credit (see above) from where you plagiarized that idea. Imus will show up with Nifong to collect royalties)

The Market|4.12.07 @ 10:38AM|#

I will only give credit to VM if My market forces decide that I should.

I'm consulting my advertisers. In the mean time, you should just shut up and stop bitching, because the corporations (in their corporation buildings) are doing their corporation thing and deciding whether to pull ads.

|4.12.07 @ 10:39AM|#

Joe,

You have no problem with art that glorifies violence and a horrible culture? You think that movies like Hustle and Flow that glamorize and give a sympathetic portrayal to pimps, people in reality are some of the worst viztimizers of women in our society? You have absolutely no objection to rap songs that portray women as bitches and whores and then market themselves to kids? Let me guess, you think that it is horrible that McDonalds will market big macs to 10 year olds, but it is okay for the music industry to sell Crunk to 12 year olds and the people who do it are artists and somehow better than Imus?

The Market|4.12.07 @ 10:40AM|#

My market forces have decided to give credit to VM, at an interest rate determined by market forces.

Happy now?

|4.12.07 @ 10:44AM|#

All I am saying Joe is that if you are going to slap down Imus for referring to black women as "Hos", then you need to slap down a lot of other people in this society who have made the term ubiquitous. Just because it is "fiction" doesn't make it any better.

VM|4.12.07 @ 10:45AM|#

No.

I wanna sell the credit and blow it all on really funky assless chaps.

And the corporations getting all corporation-ey in their buildings. And they make money. And do action films.

AND! furthermore. Let's start making lists of people who are in the "just a joke, lighten up people" camp, and see where they get all insulted and shit!

Plus, I'm out of cheetos, and grandma won't let me leave the basement, because there's some shit like the okrin man here. or is it "orken"? "orkan"? Nein.

It's some heavy shit here.

Just you wait for tomorrow. OPPOSITE DAY!

Timothy|4.12.07 @ 10:49AM|#

Jake: Thanks for that, you'd think growing up on the rough, needle-covered streets of Lake Oswego would've given me some insight into this mean-streets based "hip-hop" music...but, woefully, that is not the case.

|4.12.07 @ 10:50AM|#

...you'd better focus on the beam...

Steven King Gunslinger reference?

|4.12.07 @ 10:53AM|#

Contrary to popular belief, tomorrow is not opposite day.

VM|4.12.07 @ 10:55AM|#

that's not opposite. that's just contradiction.

|4.12.07 @ 10:56AM|#

You have no problem with art that glorifies violence and a horrible culture? You think that movies like Hustle and Flow that glamorize and give a sympathetic portrayal to pimps, people in reality are some of the worst viztimizers of women in our society? You have absolutely no objection to rap songs that portray women as bitches and whores and then market themselves to kids?

The interesting thing about R-rated rap music is that it describes American culture as a whole, but it uses blunt language and graphic examples that polite society would never employ.

American culture in general still objectifies women and glorifies violence. If you feel that's "horrible", fine, but don't act like rappers aren't performing the service of describing reality in a way that most of us never could get away with.

|4.12.07 @ 11:00AM|#

We must immediately ignore the issue of Al Sharpton's wrongdoings, because the person who brought them up has a sordid history when it comes to race relations.

WTF, joe? On these boards, I think I was the first person to roll my eyes re: Al Sharpton's delicate racial sensitivities.

Are you saying I have a sordid history?

Or are you now objectively pro-Sharpton, per your dig at me yesterday?

VM is right - I don't recall seeing any government fingerprints on this. This is pretty much a social/cultural issue. Which libertarians have just as much right to opine on as anyone else.

|4.12.07 @ 11:00AM|#

John,

"You have no problem with art that glorifies violence and a horrible culture?"

Are you talking about uber-violent westerns glorifying the violence of the Old West, or Southern Gothic literature glorifying the violence of the post-Bellum South? Or maybe Mad Max movies "glorifying" the wonders of a post-apocalyptic world?

Do you think the Geto Boys were actually glorigying serial murders?

It's. A. Story. Fiction. Unlike Imus's remarks, and his whole history of racist bullshit, in which he is actually sitting and talking about what he actually thinks, the lyrics of gangsta rap songs, for the most part, are deliberately over-the-top fantasies.

Not to mention, if you'd ever actually listened to any rap music instead of just taking Michelle Malkin's word for it, you might notice that the music doesn't "glorify" the culture, but run it down, in order to make the "hero" who manages to survive and thrive in the midst of it seem even more heroic.

|4.12.07 @ 11:03AM|#

All I am saying Joe is that if you are going to slap down Imus for referring to black women as "Hos", then you need to slap down a lot of other people in this society who have made the term ubiquitous. Just because it is "fiction" doesn't make it any better.

But, he's WHITE! And OLD! And RICH! white white white old old old rich rich rich

|4.12.07 @ 11:03AM|#

RC Dean,

I was talking about Imus, and his comments about Sharpton today.

I've spent days reading that THE REAL ISSUE isn't Imus, but Al Sharpton criticizing Imus, because of Sharpton's history. You, as a matter of fact, have been pushing that theme pretty hard.

I'm throwing it back in your face, because by this logic, we can't criticize Al Sharpton. THE REAL ISSUE isn't what Sharpton did, but the way that Imus has no standing to criticize him.

Which is complete bullshit, just as the original argument I was mocking was bullshit.

|4.12.07 @ 11:03AM|#

"American culture in general still objectifies women and glorifies violence. If you feel that's "horrible", fine, but don't act like rappers aren't performing the service of describing reality in a way that most of us never could get away with."

Then where do we get off bitching about Imus then? He was describing a reality. By that standard Imus was just performing a service for us. I suppose the Nazi Death Metal bands that out there doing "Death to Jews and Blacks" concept records are describing their reality to. Why aren't they getting Oscar nominations? If the standard is that anyone who says something that reflects some reality no matter how disgusting and demeaning, then get off Imus's back. If that is not the standard and we are going to crucify Imus, then start saying something about the rap acts. Beyond that, art drives society as much as society drives art. Everyone admits the effects of propaganda on society in every other circumstance (for example the effect of Nazi propaganda on Germany) why can't we see how Rap makes our society more misogynistic and more violent?

|4.12.07 @ 11:05AM|#

Not to mention, if you'd ever actually listened to any rap music instead of just taking Michelle Malkin's word for it, you might notice that the music doesn't "glorify" the culture, but run it down, in order to make the "hero" who manages to survive and thrive in the midst of it seem even more heroic.

In the words of Slick Rick, "Pimping ain't easy."

|4.12.07 @ 11:05AM|#

"All I am saying Joe is that if you are going to slap down Imus for referring to black women as "Hos", then you need to slap down a lot of other people in this society who have made the term ubiquitous."

Eh. Dirty words are dirty words.

Hurling them at actual people - not made-up characters in a silly song that isn't intended to convey any message, but to use those words to insult actual people - is a worse transgression.

|4.12.07 @ 11:07AM|#

"He was describing a reality."

John, did you intend to agree that the Rutger's Women's Basketball Team are "nappy-haired hos?"

|4.12.07 @ 11:09AM|#

Joe,

I supervise and work with a bunch of 18 to 22 year olds. I have heard more rap than I ever want to hear in 10 lifetimes. You don't know shit. It totally glorifies violence and the thug culture. I have people who have served below me who get spit on when they go back to their old neighborhoods because they are going to college and have never been in jail. The culture in the inner city is completely fucked up. Now, does rap reflect a culture that was already there? Of course. But it also drives that culture. The influence goes both ways.

|4.12.07 @ 11:11AM|#

Oh give me a break. You can't make out the lyrics and you know it.

"It totally glorifies violence and the thug culture." I believe that YOU believe it, John.

|4.12.07 @ 11:11AM|#

Joe,

It is called irony. Read the damn post in conext. The point was that if Rappers are just decribing a reality, then why wasn't Imus? The standard applies to both and it doesn't work in either case. I need to remember to write in simpler terms so you will understand.

|4.12.07 @ 11:13AM|#

If the standard is that anyone who says something that reflects some reality no matter how disgusting and demeaning, then get off Imus's back. If that is not the standard and we are going to crucify Imus, then start saying something about the rap acts.

Imus in many ways does fullfill a similar role -like Howard Stern, his "job" is to "say the things that people are thinking but are scared to say." It may not be pleasant but even in this case he's expressing an idea that more people agree with than who are likely to admit it.

I don't know if Imus "describes reality" but he does give voice to a certain point of view that must be held by a lot of people, hence his popularity.

|4.12.07 @ 11:13AM|#

Joe,

I agree that the issue isn't Al Sharpton per se. This is an issue about propriety and consequences of crossing the line. I don't see how it is possible to assess "propriety" outside of a cultural context. If nobody is offended by these words, then there is no problem. How do we know when things are offensive? These words have been put out there by many people of color, and nobody has lost their job over it.

The precedent we have set is that inappropriate language does not lead to firing. If it did, Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson would not have a radio show. Neither would Rush Limbaugh.

Cesar|4.12.07 @ 11:18AM|#

Whenever they play this game with rap lyrics, why doesn't someone point out that 90% of that crap is bought by white middle-class teenagers?

|4.12.07 @ 11:20AM|#

Hooked,

Fair enough. If you want to let Imus off the hook, then at least you are consistant. I am not so sure that you aren't right in that artists are just artists and it shouldn't matter what any of them say, although I am skeptical. But, better that position than the Joe position that calling black women whores is only bad when white people say it but just okiedokie when a black rapper does it.

|4.12.07 @ 11:23AM|#

Fair enough. If you want to let Imus off the hook, then at least you are consistant.

Thanks. I for one think the Imus thing is a tempest in a teapot but I guess it does provoke us into having discussions on racial issues which still very much exist just below the surface.

|4.12.07 @ 11:25AM|#

Hip hop is the new jazz.

|4.12.07 @ 11:26AM|#

John,

I didn't make the "just describing a reality" argument. I stated just the opposite, that these were fantasies intended to be fun, no different than a video game or slasher movie.

If you want to argue with what I've written, please do so.

|4.12.07 @ 11:28AM|#

Lamar,

I'm not claiming that the lyrics of much rap music is no offensive. I'm saying that the offense is safely kept behind a wall of silliness and fantasy.

One might as well complain that the makers of zombie movies are disrespectful to camping teenagers.

|4.12.07 @ 11:28AM|#

"Hip hop is the new jazz."

ROTFLMAO!

|4.12.07 @ 11:29AM|#

And physically fit basketball players are offensive to Paris Hilton-types.

|4.12.07 @ 11:31AM|#

Let me say that Joe is not entirely wrong on his take that much rap is fantasy but I do think that all stories, no matter how fantastic or overblown, tell us something about the human condition. People fantasize about things for a reason.

|4.12.07 @ 11:34AM|#

I wonder what the hook-nosed JAPs of Brandeis or the flat-assed squaws of the College of Menominee Nation basketball teams think about the matter.

VM|4.12.07 @ 11:36AM|#

de stijl - just ask Chief Wahoo.

you little dutch girl, you. hey - your country is a swamp. you're under water.

WTF with yer wooden shoes. Your queen is named, "Beatrix". "Queen Bee"? WTF.

and make up your fucking mind. Speak english or german. not that gutteral hack hack shit you call a language.

AND FOR THE LAST TIME, STAY OUT OF BELGIUM.
(lighten up. tis just a joke)

But Ajax rocks.

|4.12.07 @ 11:39AM|#

Rap lyrics -- which talk about thug life and culture and things, have absolutely nothing at all to do with this story.

The "story" is that IMUS called out a specific group of people.

There are pimps and hos in the world, and to make mention of them is not problematic in and of itself. But to call out someone specific and to label them "nappy headed hoes" when they are nothing of the sort isn't a "commentary on culture" or anything like that -- it is an outright attack on a group of people that is masked in a type of "humor" that appeals to racists and mysoginists. (I thought humor was supposed to be funny, by the way).

Anyone who is trying to make this story about what rappers do or say in their lyrics are merely trying to obfuscate the issue. The issue is that low-life Don Imus decided to attack a group of girls for no good reason. What exactly was his commentary??? What exactly was his point? Nothing other than to get a laugh out of people who already hate women and blacks.

Stop trying to change the subject. No matter what anyone else says, that doesn't give Imus a reason or an excuse for doing what he did.

Context does matter. He singled these poor girls out. They were real victims, not just faceless concepts or caricatures.

|4.12.07 @ 11:41AM|#

In the words of Slick Rick, "Pimping ain't easy."

There lived a lil' boy who was misled,
by anotha lil' boy and this is what he said:

Big Daddy Kane has a beef with you, jimmydageek.

|4.12.07 @ 11:41AM|#

I really can't believe that you said a rapper can't be fired. Are you kidding? Was there a joke I missed? Or were you so focused on pushing the superiority of boycotts that you forgot that anybody working for somebody else can be fired?

50 Cent owns his own label. Unless Interscope wants to spend a fortune trying to end their distribution deal, there's little they can do to him. If you actually took the time to gain an understanding of the situation before you decide you're an expert on it.

|4.12.07 @ 11:42AM|#

Hooked on Innuendo,

I suspect that rap musicians and their producers "fantasize" about gang violence and misogyny mainly because of what they saw on the P Diddy episode of MTV's "Cribs."

dhex|4.12.07 @ 11:42AM|#

"It's almost like you're saying there's nothing that can be done about black racists, but since white racists have establishments, we can break them apart. How does this fit into Joe's definition of victimhood?"

no, what i'm saying is that if i run troma films (home of toxic avenger and other z-grade films - to be fair "surf nazis must die" is actually quite great, as is the first nuke 'em high movie...but i digress) and you want to stop me from making stupid movies that are exploitive, low grade and otherwise disgusting, your best bet as a consumer or scold is external pressure where it hurts. harass distributors, boycott products, pressure retail outlets not to carry my stuff.

otherwise you're yelling at a z-grade movie outfit for making z-grade movies. that seems kinda counterproductive, like telling porno makers they make sexually explicit material that's gross.

to pick another random example, i'm relapse records and you want to complain about a band on our label called pig destroyer (pig = cop / destroyer = one who destroys):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_Destroyer

they have a song off of terrifyer (their best album for those playing along at home, though not as "political" as earlier works) called "pretty in casts" which (supposedly) the lyrics are as follows:

maybe she'll snap her wrists doing cartwheels or her ankle dancing drunken
at some rave maybe she'll go through a windshield and have twinkling bits of
glass stuck in her face she's so pretty in her casts damaged so perfectly
she's so pretty in her casts the prettiest thing I've ever seen I only get
to hold her when she's injured I only get to kiss her where she's sore

which is both disturbing and somewhat rapey (great song though) and unintelligible even when reading along with the above. how else are you going to put pressure on the label? shame them? it's an extreme metal label, doing what an extreme metal label is supposed to do.

and i am somewhat sympathetic to imus' particular plight in this area (so long as i don't think about his gruesome visage) because he was doing what he was supposed to be doing - being a fuckface. that's his job.

as for the second part, i don't know, you'd have to ask joe, since i'm not up on his victimhoodology.

Mike Laursen|4.12.07 @ 11:45AM|#

Why is Kurt Vonnegut dead and Michelle Malkin still alive?

: -|4.12.07 @ 11:45AM|#

Comedy gold, Jake. Can you translate of those songs where the three ho-, I mean girls are all singing different hip-hoppy words at the same time? They make me dizzy and happy I'm not a Baptist.

|4.12.07 @ 11:47AM|#

Hooked on Innuendo,

I suspect that rap musicians and their producers "fantasize" about gang violence and misogyny mainly because of what they saw on the P Diddy episode of MTV's "Cribs."

Maybe, but somebody was the first to have the idea and it caught on because is resonated with people. Any successful artistic endeavor will result in copycats trying to make a quick buck but that doesn't mean that none of it is authentic.

dhex|4.12.07 @ 11:47AM|#

i wish i could up the peel session of lightning bolt from the ATP show in 2004 where brian chippendale introduces "dead cowboy" (their only explicitly political song, really) as "this is our fraggle rock cowboy song...called throw george bush in a pit and cover him with boiling oil."

please send this info along to all the conservatives you know because i want lightning bolt to be rich and famous as they utterly kick ass.

|4.12.07 @ 11:52AM|#

Actually, de stijl, Ice-T would have beef with me. Slick Rick's was just the 1st one that popped in my head.

|4.12.07 @ 11:56AM|#

Shem:

Brilliant. Interscope can't fire 50 Cent unless they fire him, and if they fire him they lose money? Is that your argument? MSNBC will lose money by firing a successful on-air talent. Perhaps I'm not an expert, but I know music distribution deals, and in fact, they are no different than many other contracts.

Your whole analysis is that it is too expensive to fire rappers? Fine. That doesn't change the fact that these people can, and apparently in today's climate, should be fired. Owning a label is nothing. Imus owns his own studio. What's your point? Pressure was put on MSNBC, and the same pressure should be put on Interscope and its affiliates. If you're such an expert, why don't you know that Interscope is owned by A&M? Who owns A&M? Universal Music Group. Oh, but you were saying something about nobody can fire 50 Cent? Surely Universal Music Group has no power....

|4.12.07 @ 11:57AM|#

jimmydageek, yes, I think rap is a caricature. And yes, a caricature means representing peculiarities in a deliberately exaggerated way to produce a comic effect.

Unless, of course, you see some deep meaning to "Candy Shop" I'm not seeing.

|4.12.07 @ 11:58AM|#

Perhaps we agree dhex. I'm not in favor of some jackass at Staples deciding what I can and can't watch. I'm in favor of the boycotts you're talking about. The way I see it, if you can't get enough support to make a boycott work, you don't have enough support for your cause. The point I'm making is that we should be consistent when we demand that people be fired. We're very selective right now, and it arises from the fact that black people have a lexicon that is de facto forbidden to whites.

Snow|4.12.07 @ 11:59AM|#

TORONTO!

Jim Murphy|4.12.07 @ 12:00PM|#

I'll preface this by saying that I'm a huge hip-hop fan, and have several gigs of it on my iPod. Since I came up on the west coast (well, the needle strewn mean streets of Bountiful, Utah) I have a real preference for the West Coast gangsta sound past and present. But...

Hip hop is the new jazz.

ROTFL!!!

When hip hop produces a Miles Davis, Charlie Parker or John Coltrane feel free to let me know...

Again, as a hip-hop fan this comparison is absurd. Jazz requires an ungodly level of musical virtuosity. Hip-hop, for better or worse, doesn't.

|4.12.07 @ 12:01PM|#

I've spent days reading that THE REAL ISSUE isn't Imus, but Al Sharpton criticizing Imus, because of Sharpton's history. You, as a matter of fact, have been pushing that theme pretty hard.

Bullshit, joe. I find that particular angle of this amusing whole kerfuffle amusing. If I have four comments on it here, I'd be surprised.

Sharpton is just a stand-in, anyway, for frustration over double-standards in our culture. Are you saying that's not a real issue? Sharpton just provides the most pointed example of these double standards in action.

I'm throwing it back in your face, because by this logic, we can't criticize Al Sharpton.

By what logic? I'm (that's me, not anyone with a history of racial malfeasance) saying Al Sharpton is a pretty sorry posterboy for racial sensitivity, given his history of racial malfeasance. I don't get the logic in your argument that someone with clean hands (that would be me) can't criticize someone with dirty hands (that would be Sharpton), because I point out the irony of someone with dirty hands (Sharpton again) criticizing someone else (Imus, this time).

THE REAL ISSUE isn't what Sharpton did, but the way that Imus has no standing to criticize him.

You see the non sequitur in claiming I can't criticise Sharpton because Imus has no standing to do so?

No matter what anyone else says, that doesn't give Imus a reason or an excuse for doing what he did.

And I never said it did. No comment of mine can be construed in any way to support Don Imus comments about Rutgers.

|4.12.07 @ 12:05PM|#

Cab,

Again, there's plenty of rap music that does not pertain to thug life, bling, bitches and hoes. Candy Shop is in the realm of the latter. Again, take your ignorance and shove it up your ass.

|4.12.07 @ 12:07PM|#

Don Imus died for Crystal Gail Mangum's sins.

Rapper\'s Delight!|4.12.07 @ 12:09PM|#

Sugar Hill Gang!

dhex|4.12.07 @ 12:10PM|#

to be fair, a lot of the "conscious" stuff is pretty bad. on the other hand, the new kweli album is going to be great!

"The point I'm making is that we should be consistent when we demand that people be fired. We're very selective right now, and it arises from the fact that black people have a lexicon that is de facto forbidden to whites."

yeah, basically. i mean, i don't really have much of a problem with that, however, especially since what we're really asking is for al sharpton to be more consistent. not really going to happen. that's like asking bill donohue to have perspective. just not going to happen.

i am still somewhat surprised that someone saying "these female basketball players aren't enough of a sexual object as my tastes would demand" doesn't get more scrutiny. it's not like he picked on another entertainer, but instead on a women's college basketball team.

|4.12.07 @ 12:12PM|#

"We're very selective right now, and it arises from the fact that black people have a lexicon that is de facto forbidden to whites."

But that's ALL we got. And it ain't nuthin'.

|4.12.07 @ 12:20PM|#

VM name-checks Snow? As in Twelve Inches of ...? The Vanilla Ice of the Great White North?

Jimmydageek, Why would any of the Ices care about a Big Daddy Kane song? I'll even include the Ices from Fear Of A Black Hat (Ice Cold, Ice Tray, Ice Coffee, Ice Water, Iceberg, Ice Cup, Ice Box).

Jim Murphy, Does verbal virtuosity count for anything?

it arises from the fact that black people have a lexicon that is de facto forbidden to whites.

Boo friggin' hoo.

Artists United Against Aparthe|4.12.07 @ 12:22PM|#

except for bozo...

MR STEVEN CRANE!!!!

Rhywun|4.12.07 @ 12:23PM|#

I'm no fan of rap, but reading those lyrics does kind of crack me up. And the posturing is so ridiculous. I find the whole genre of "I'm the greatest thing ever" lyrics to be really off-putting.

VM|4.12.07 @ 12:28PM|#

So, you're not fergielicious?

:)

Alanis digs it :)

|4.12.07 @ 12:33PM|#

I just read about the Alanis cover of My Humps yesterday. Ms. Morrisette is now an immortal genius in my book.

|4.12.07 @ 12:34PM|#

RC, I think you missed the fact that my comment was meant to be ironic.

"Sharpton is just a stand-in, anyway, for frustration over double-standards in our culture. Are you saying that's not a real issue?" Sure it is, but you know how sometimes you encounter people who respond to every observation about a problem on the other side of the world with an accusation about America? Same thing - what the hell does Emmitt Till have to do with Zimbabwe? Oh, right, it changes the subject.

Anyway, I wasn't accusing you of not having clean enough hands to criticize Sharpton. I'm not even saying those without clean hands (and whose hands are completely clean, anyway?) can't ever level criticism. I'm mocking that position, and the people who have been arguing it, i.r.t. Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson and unnamed (but always Democratic) "race hustlers." I reject that logic as the irrational, shady dodge that it is.

I wrote that comment to draw attention to the intellectual dishonesty of responding to this episode by criticizing Al Sharpton.

VM|4.12.07 @ 12:35PM|#

in canada cats grow on trees

(must be all that korn syrup)

Chicago Tom still is in the lead today! Well Spake!

|4.12.07 @ 12:37PM|#

"I find the whole genre of "I'm the greatest thing ever" lyrics to be really off-putting."

Eh. It goes back to the blues. Muddy Waters gets all the women and has expensive clothing.

Rap is just more wordy than the blues.

|4.12.07 @ 12:47PM|#

Fats Domino's "thrill" on Blueberry Hill was clearly a ho. and a pimp. and a bitch. Right? That's what we're doing now? We're denying that hip hop went from anger to hate? Not ALL hip hop, just the relevant hip hop.

|4.12.07 @ 12:56PM|#

Go 'way!

Race baitin'

dhex|4.12.07 @ 1:02PM|#

"So, you're not fergielicious?"

she's hot and all, but can someone convince her not to sing?

my favorite dos and donts item in the vice book was the girl in the cowboy hat and shredded jeans that read "she may be hot, but sex is twenty minutes. listening to her talk about the black eyed peas for three hours is an eternity."

|4.12.07 @ 1:03PM|#

-Not to mention, if you'd ever actually listened to any rap music instead of just taking Michelle Malkin's word for it, you might notice that the music doesn't "glorify" the culture, but run it down, in order to make the "hero" who manages to survive and thrive in the midst of it seem even more heroic.-

Thanks dude, I knew someone would figure my shit out.

|4.12.07 @ 1:07PM|#

jimmy, someone ought to teach you some manners, something your daddy evidently didn't do.

|4.12.07 @ 1:08PM|#

Yeah, Cab. There's a small, irrelevant minority of rap songs that Jimmydageek would like to characterize as the mainstream of rap. Where's your sensitivity?

VM|4.12.07 @ 1:09PM|#

dhex - hilarious.

confession: don't know who she is and have never heard her or the blacked eyed peas. I got the reference from "Mike and Mike in the Morning"

Rev Al - so, are you telling me I have to have diversity in my blow up doll collection if I want to maintain federal funding?

hrumph.
/kicks pebble

|4.12.07 @ 1:13PM|#

The mute button works just as well on Fergie as it does on Michelle Malkin.

Ow, what just hit me in the back of the head?

|4.12.07 @ 1:15PM|#

RC, I think you missed the fact that my comment was meant to be ironic.

Guilty. Its getting so hard to tell the diff, these days.

I wrote that comment to draw attention to the intellectual dishonesty of responding to this episode by criticizing Al Sharpton.

What's intellectually dishonest about being (a) completely silent on Imus and (b) taking this opportunity to kick Sharpton in the 'nads?

I regard Sharpton, Jackson, and their ilk as enormously cynical and hypocritical people who have damaged not only their putative constituents in the black community but society as a whole. Anytime they stick their heads out I'm going to take a shot at them. I don't care what the context is.

|4.12.07 @ 1:18PM|#

You're right, Cab, my daddy wasn't around to teach me manners. Was yours around teaching you that ignorance is bliss? Or did you figure that one out on your own?

Lamar, I'm not characterizing it as the mainstream of rap. I didn't say that, did I? I know what the mainstream is and I know that the mainstream stuff is mostly crap. I simply pointed out that not all rap is like the mainstream crap. There is a difference.

|4.12.07 @ 1:20PM|#

VM,

In the process of cloning your Noam Chomsky doll, simply add some darker pigment here and there. And maybe some nappy hair.

|4.12.07 @ 1:22PM|#

I was just in a 7-Eleven during lunch and glanced over at the cover of XXL magazine and thought, "you know, that geeky jimmy guy is right, there is no caricature there, just a guy with a hand grenade in his mouth......how poignant"

|4.12.07 @ 1:24PM|#

Can you translate of those songs where the three ho-, I mean girls are all singing different hip-hoppy words at the same time?

I certainly can! Point me to the song, and I'll translate it! It's my service to the community! Or, in other words, my court-mandated community service!

dhex|4.12.07 @ 1:25PM|#

moose, forgive me for i know not what i do:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_eyed_peas

you can google image search for the rest.

|4.12.07 @ 1:31PM|#

Cab,

You won't acknowledge that there's other rap other than the caricature-rap you refer to. I'll quit trying to explain and revert to my resolve that you're just an ignorant prick.

Jake Boone, I'd like the interpretation for this song, please.

|4.12.07 @ 1:33PM|#

Let's play a game there, geeky. I'll post a picture and you see if your infinite powers of deduction can pick out any hints of caricaturization.

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B000JMKKH2.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_V43106582_AA240_.jpg

I know, I know..... it subtle, but if you look closely you may see an exaggeration or two.

Tell your daddy I love him.....he tried.

dhex|4.12.07 @ 1:35PM|#

my turn:

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B000O3QSF4.01-A39844XYY4YTEZ._SCLZZZZZZZ_V43854074_SS500_.jpg

(disclaimer: i think madlib is overrated)

VM|4.12.07 @ 1:35PM|#

dhex - I'm gonna stick with the "ignorance is bliss" while I'm working on my noam chomsky doll.

*there. shaved off my mehair gloves. How do I nappify it? I tried playing "Party All the Time" for the doll merkin, but that just gave me an "innie" (I shan't elaborate). hmmmmmm.
*******************

Cab! JimmydaGeek! Do not let anger rule the day!

*boom*

Son, you're on your own.

|4.12.07 @ 1:41PM|#

VM,

I was talking to Rev. Al (after he finished baitin') and he said a Farrakhan doll oughta do it. His exact words were:

Farrakhan's a blow-up doll that I think you ouught to listen to.

Early '90s rap satire movie showdown - Fear Of a Black Hat vs. CB4?

IMO, FoaBH was truer to the Spinal Tap vibe and the fake interviews were pretty funny. The Kriss Kross knock-off bit was priceless.

|4.12.07 @ 1:46PM|#

VM - anger leads to hate, thanks for reminding me. Therefore I am willing to compromise with my new aptly named friend.

geeky - I'll admit not all rap is a caricature if you admit not all rap is Maya Angelou lyrics set to a beat you can dance to.

(That's as civil as I can get for the time being.)

Daniel DiRito|4.12.07 @ 1:52PM|#

Frankly, we are fast becoming the epitome of a Jerry Springer society. It seems to have become more important to have an audience and notoriety when confronting conflict than it is to attain resolve and mutual respect. That model seems to serve the needs of the exploited and those who seek to exploit; reinforcing all that relegates objectivity to the outhouse while making the frailty and imperfection of the human condition a spectacle that harkens back to the Coliseum.

This situation isn't and shouldn't be about whether liberals or conservatives, this race or that race, hip hop or honky-tonk, one group or another, are more offensive and therefore more responsible for all that is wrong with America. I am not capable of judging the whole of Don Imus nor am I capable of crafting a recipe to fix all of America...and neither are the countless pundits and partisans who have sought to frame it so.

I'm not a religious person...but I often find kinship with the imagery surrounding the portrayal of one called Jesus and his teachings of understanding and forgiveness. For all the banter I hear about the Bible and Christian values, it certainly seems to me that we are fast abandoning what many view as the sacred "tablets" in favor of the sacrosanct tabloids. If I'm right, all I can say is heaven help us.

Read more about the dynamics that lead a situation to become larger than the sum of its parts...here:

www.thoughttheater.com

VM|4.12.07 @ 1:53PM|#

"if you admit not all rap is Maya Angelou lyrics set to a beat you can dance to.

(That's as civil as I can get for the time being.)"

wellll... you've obviously never seen JimmydaGeek on the dance floor. please, please, please rephrase to "set to a beat that [someone, anyone else] can dance to"

And you can borrow my Farrakhan doll - I'll stuff it with Noam chomsky for a "Farraksy" (think: the turducken of batin!)

*now, to try something else to nappify the hair. Hey Crane - chest hair. c'mere!

|4.12.07 @ 1:56PM|#

I was never angry. When I throw around terms like, "dumb f*ck" etc, I do it with a perfectly serene mindset. Nor did I ever hate Cab. Hate just sucks.

Cab, I never said "all rap is Maya Angelou lyrics set to a beat you can dance to." So, there's nothing for me to admit since I never made any implication to the contrary.

|4.12.07 @ 1:58PM|#

The Muppets say Fuck the Police

Oh my goodness, those nice young men in NWA sure do swear a lot. ("A mix of all the nwa cursing", NSFW!)

VM|4.12.07 @ 1:59PM|#

meta dialog!

"I never made any implication to the contrary."

yes you did.

[ducks]

Danny there is obviously A King Without a Crown

|4.12.07 @ 2:02PM|#

"I'm not a religious person...but I often find kinship with the imagery surrounding the portrayal of one called Jesus and his teachings of understanding and forgiveness. For all the banter I hear about the Bible and Christian values, it certainly seems to me that we are fast abandoning what many view as the sacred "tablets" in favor of the sacrosanct tabloids. If I'm right, all I can say is heaven help us."

I didn't know non-religious people believed in heaven.

|4.12.07 @ 2:09PM|#

Q: What's the difference between a bitch and a ho?

A: A ho fucks EVERYBODY. A bitch fucks everybody BUT YOU.

|4.12.07 @ 2:16PM|#

BLACK IS BEAUTIFUL!

Nigga, a pathology.

SugarFree|4.12.07 @ 2:17PM|#

Does anyone else wonder when joe and John are going to finally shed their catty facades and start making out? It's like Matlin and Carville all over again...

Of course, once you have David and Maddie or Sam and Diane finally resolve the sexual tension, the show often jumps the shark. If this happens, will That Hit & Run Show survive?

Oh and for the humor-impaired:

Women's basketball = boring
Imus = boring
Imus on women's basketball = boring
Al Sharpton = boring
Al Sharpton on Imus = boring
Hit & Run debating race in America = awesome
joe and John = not homosexual (unless they want to be)
Suggesting they are = joke
Me, probably = asshole

Be sure to pressure GLAAD to get me off the air...

VM|4.12.07 @ 2:25PM|#

Hier

DEATH BY SNU SNU to Sugarfree!

|4.12.07 @ 2:25PM|#

Imus was a dumbshit first for saying such a stupid thing, and then for kowtowing to Sharpton. Hey, you either mean something you say or you don't. If he were savvy, Imus would up the ante and launch barbs at Sharpton, who's just a ridiculously easy target. If you are in the business to sell cheap shocks, backing down is the last thing you should ever do.

As far as comparing Imus to gangsta rap, the only commonality I hear is lack of talent.

|4.12.07 @ 2:31PM|#

SugarFree,

I'm Tony. He's Angela.

|4.12.07 @ 2:31PM|#

Let's get this jam started off right!

Yo, yo , yo
I want to say hello
First to the VM
I think he's making BM

Whoops!

Oh, no!

I meant that he is 'batin'
Flemur's infuriatin'
Jimmy is da geek
Acting like a freak
Quotin' hip hop lyrics
Damn! Can you hear it?
De stijl is a style
Modern art beguiles

Hit'n'run ain't no fun
Without the highnumber one

How'd ya like my rhyme?
Didn't take me too much time
Too busy at my job
To hang with this mob
See y'all tomorrow
Oppzit is day to follow

SugarFree|4.12.07 @ 2:32PM|#

VM,

Better those alien gals, the Rutgers women's basketball team!

(Oh shit, now I'm in for it...)

SugarFree|4.12.07 @ 2:33PM|#

joe,

Is Jennifer Mona? Please say she's Mona.

SugarFree|4.12.07 @ 2:37PM|#

"Better those alien gals, than the Rutgers women's basketball team!"

Stupid missing word typo crap grumble

SugarFree|4.12.07 @ 2:37PM|#

I.Self.Divine.|4.12.07 @ 2:48PM|#

Let Us Now Praise Famous Race Hustlers

David Weigel | April 12, 2007, 9:13am

Michelle Malkin's new column is about how it's okay to call college basketball players black whores because hip-hop lyrics are gross. Or something.
Is the Sharpton & Jackson Circus truly committed to cleaning up cultural pollution that demeans women and perpetuates racial epithets? Have you seen the Billboard Hot Rap Tracks chart this week?
The number one rap track is by a new sensation who goes by the name of "Mims."

The "song" is "This Is Why I'm Hot." It has topped the charts for the last 15 weeks. Here's a taste of the lyrics that young men and women are cranking up in their cars:

This is why I'm hot
Catch me on the block
Every other day
Another bitch another drop
16 bars, 24 pop
44 songs, nigga gimme what you got…

… We into big spinners
See my pimping never dragged
Find me wit' different women that you niggas never had
For those who say they know me know I'm focused on ma cream
Player you come between you'd better focus on the beam
I keep it so mean the way you see me lean
And when I say I'm hot my nigga dis is what I mean

Good stuff! But Malkin doesn't like it:
Al Sharpton, I am sure, is ready to call a press conference with the National Organization for Women to jointly protest this garbage and protest the radio stations and big pimpin' music companies behind it.

The thing is, Sharpton does denounce "this garbage." When it comes to hip-hop, Sharpton's about as tolerant as Joe Lieberman. Here's a hard-to-find story from the yellowing New York Post archives of one week ago.
Parents and community leaders yesterday threatened to boycott two of hip-hop's biggest artists in the wake of a rapper's alleged attack of a 14-year-old boy who was wearing a T-shirt promoting a rival's label.
Unless The Game and 50 Cent, two of rap's biggest stars, squash their beef, the communities that support them will - in the words of hip-hop pioneers Public Enemy - shut 'em down.

"We put the i-n-g in your bling-bling," Sharpton said. "All of us have children who listen to your music. Some of us listen ourselves. But we don't want to feel like we're investing in the demise of our community."

This is a (although probably not the) reason that Sharpton has credibility, if we can call it that, in this endless national flagellation. He's a cultural scold. This isn't to pick on Malkin, by the way, as plenty of less prominent pundits have made the "why don't these people go after hip-hop?" argument during Imusgate.

I suggest everyone turn for wisdom to the prophet Jay-Z:

I'm like "fuck critics, you can kiss my whole asshole
If you don't like my lyrics you can press fast forward"
UPDATE: Worth noting how many of the editorial cartoons on the Imus meltdown go with the "but really, this is about those blacks and their hip/hop music" angle.
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Comments to "Let Us Now Praise Famous Race Hustlers":
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dhex, multiverse, nothingness | April 12, 2007, 9:23am | #

the weirdness here is that conserva-americans are using a justification for asymmetrical culture war. it's like when someone's defending car bombs or suicide bombers by saying "but israel and america are using even worse weapons."
Timothy | April 12, 2007, 9:29am | #

Okay, I'm not even sure what those lyrics mean so other than the "niggas" and "be with women you never had" I'm confused about how offensive they're supposed to be.
joe | April 12, 2007, 9:33am | #

Ooh, I know this game!

Why don't Muslims ever denounce Islamic terrorist?

They do - here and here and here and here and here.

Well, OK, but why don't they do it MORE?
Lamar | April 12, 2007, 9:34am | #

Sharpton may give lip service to denouncing hip hop, but I haven't seen him call for anybody to be fired. When it comes to blacks, Sharpton wants to sit down and work things out. When it comes to whites, he wants them fired. Maybe this double standard is OK for whatever reason, but it certainly doesn't help clarify when someone should be fired from their job. For Sharpton, that determination depends on one's skin color.
dhex, multiverse, nothingness | April 12, 2007, 9:35am | #

http://www.toothpastefordinner.com/011203/bass-car.gif
jimmydageek | April 12, 2007, 9:37am | #

I'm confused, Mr. Weigel. You're saying that Sharpton denounces this "garbage", but then you link to an article in which he says, "We put the i-n-g in your bling-bling...All of us have children who listen to your music. Some of us listen ourselves. But we don't want to feel like we're investing in the demise of our community."

He was being vocal about the fact that the rappers attacked a 14-year-old kid, not about the content of their lyrics.

If you're going to defend his "denouncing garbage", at least link to some more relevant material.
dhex, multiverse, nothingness | April 12, 2007, 9:38am | #

"Sharpton may give lip service to denouncing hip hop, but I haven't seen him call for anybody to be fired."

how do you fire a rapper?

oh yeah, you boycott their products as sharpton alludes to above.
P Brooks | April 12, 2007, 9:38am | #

I wish this topic could be dealt with in a rational manner, instead of the current quasi-religious fanaticism. At least we don't suicide bombers in the mix (yet).
andronoid | April 12, 2007, 9:38am | #

I suggest that a better words of wisdom in relation to Malkin's criticism would be "I got 99 problems but a bitch ain't one."
MP | April 12, 2007, 9:47am | #

This type of commentary is not only coming from the Michelle Malkin's of the world. Here's yesterday's column from KC Star writer Jason Whitlock. A snippet:

I don't listen or watch Imus' show regularly. Has he at any point glorified selling crack cocaine to black women? Has he celebrated black men shooting each other randomly? Has he suggested in any way that it's cool to be a baby-daddy rather than a husband and a parent? Does he tell his listeners that they're suckers for pursuing education and that they're selling out their race if they do?

When Imus does any of that, call me and I'll get upset. Until then, he is what he is - a washed-up shock jock who is very easy to ignore when you're not looking to be made a victim.
jimmydageek | April 12, 2007, 9:48am | #

Where's the beef?!

Beef is not what Jay said to Nas Beef is when workin niggas can't find jobs So they tryna find niggas to rob Tryna find bigger guns so they can finish the job Beef is when the crack kids can't find moms Cuz they in a crime box or locked behind bars Beef ain't the Summer Jam for Hot 97 Beef is the cocaine and AIDS epidemic Beef don't come with a radio edit Beef is when the judge is callin you "defendant" Beef, it comes with a long jail sentence Handed down to you in a few short minutes Beef is when your girl come through for a visit Talkin bout "I'm pregnant by some other nigga" Beef is high blood pressure and bad credit Need a loan for your home and you're too broke to get it. Beef is when a gangster ain't doin it right Another gangster then decided what to do with his life Beef is not what these famous niggas do on the mic Beef is what George Bush would do in a fight Yeah, beef is not what Ja said to 50 Beef is more than Irv not bein here with me When a soldier ends his life with his own gun Beef is tryin to figure out what to tell his son Beef is oil prices and geopolitics Beef is Iraq, the West Bank, and Gaza Strip Some beef is big and some beef is small But what y'all call beef is not beef at all Beef is real life happenin everyday And it's realer than them songs that you get at Kay Slay This has been a Black Star PSA From Mos Def, Pretty Flacko, black Dante And the Black Star embassy, B to the K
dagny | April 12, 2007, 9:51am | #

There's a big difference between "using offensive language" and "using offensive language to target and attack someone who didn't deserve it"
Conservative Dictionary | April 12, 2007, 9:53am | #

victim: N (vik'-tim): a member of a racial minority who notices or responds to racism
Mr. F. Le Mur | April 12, 2007, 9:58am | #

I'm confused, Mr. Weigel.

No, you're not the one who's confused.
Cab | April 12, 2007, 10:05am | #

How long does rap have to use those lyrics before they become meaningless? Hint: probably around 15 years ago. They've had lyrics like that ever since the hunnies was wearin' Sassoon.

Rap music is a caricature, everyone knows it, especially those that listen to it.
Lamar | April 12, 2007, 10:05am | #

"how do you fire a rapper?"

Assuming you aren't kidding:
(1) You drop them from the label. It's called "firing."

(2) I was really talking about the producers who put rap albums together, but your suggestion that rappers can't be fired can't go unchallenged. Why are rappers different again? Why not fire the record executives who encourage this kind of crap?

(3) How do you fire anybody who works for somebody? It is my understanding, dhex, that a "boss" calls the "fireee" into the office and informs him that he is no longer welcome in that place of business.

I really can't believe that you said a rapper can't be fired. Are you kidding? Was there a joke I missed? Or were you so focused on pushing the superiority of boycotts that you forgot that anybody working for somebody else can be fired?

Joe: The liberal definition of victim is: Everybody except rich, white guys.
Jake Boone | April 12, 2007, 10:09am | #

Okay, I'm not even sure what those lyrics mean so other than the "niggas" and "be with women you never had" I'm confused about how offensive they're supposed to be.

Timothy, that's nothing to be ashamed of. Many people don't understand today's popular music. Luckily for you, I'm here to help.

Here is a line-by-line translation from the lyrics of Mr. Mims:

----------

This is why I'm hot
I hereby intend to explain why I am so incredibly popular.

Catch me on the block
You will discover that I tend to remain visible within the neighborhood...

Every other day
...but only on alternate weekdays. I am somewhat busy, after all.

Another bitch another drop
I am constantly giving young women rides to various destinations in my vehicle. I sometimes grow weary of this.

16 bars, 24 pop
My vehicle is well-stocked with both candy bars and soda, by way of refreshment for the aforementioned young women.

44 songs, nigga gimme what you got
Unfortunately, my contract terms require me to churn out a great many songs, so I will accept whatever assistance you may wish to render, even if you are not yet fully satisfied with your lyrics.

We into big spinners
My friends and I particularly enjoy playing Twister, but we find the spinner included with the game to be unpleasantly small.

See my pimping never dragged
When I customize my vehicle, I keep enough ground clearance to pass over speed bumps without scraping.

Find me wit' different women that you niggas never had
My listeners, most of you have not had sex with the variety of women I spend my time with.

For those who say they know me know I'm focused on ma cream
I keep to a strict diet, moderating my intake of fatty foods. I am also somwhat lactose intolerant, so dairy products are a constant source of concern to me.

Player you come between you'd better focus on the beam
When getting LASIK surgery done, you are required to try and focus on a small beam of light shining on your eye. I would like to remind you of this, so that in case you are listening to this song while receiving said procedure, you won't forget to look at the light.

I keep it so mean the way you see me lean
Again, my diet is both unpleasant and low in fat. This keeps me both fit and slender.

And when I say I'm hot my nigga dis is what I mean
I have now successfully explained my immense popularity.

----------

Does that clear things up for you, Timothy? As an expert on rap and hip-hop music, I am certain this translation is absolutely correct. I should know; after all, I live in Oregon.
VM | April 12, 2007, 10:10am | #

the misfits did it, too

"Why is it when ameruka does it, it's not called torture?"

Looks like all of these people who said that the Scarlet Knights Players should get a sense of humor don't find any humor in all of this.

Lighten up guys!

It's now market forces! Advertising was pulled. End of story. The market has spoken.


DEMAND KURV!!!!!

It's the perfect solution. The market solved it.
dhex, multiverse, nothingness | April 12, 2007, 10:12am | #

"Or were you so focused on pushing the superiority of boycotts that you forgot that anybody working for somebody else can be fired?"

entertainment is a bit more freelance in nature than talk radio, even with the advent of sirius. if you're going to target someone on a label like g-unit, a boycott makes sense. otherwise complaining about violent imagery for a label like that would be like complaining about ridiculous theatrics and satanic imagery in black metal.

which would have been imus' best defense, actually, as he is a "shock jock" of sorts.
jimmydageek | April 12, 2007, 10:14am | #

Cab | April 12, 2007, 10:05am | #

How long does rap have to use those lyrics before they become meaningless? Hint: probably around 15 years ago. They've had lyrics like that ever since the hunnies was wearin' Sassoon.

Rap music is a caricature, everyone knows it, especially those that listen to it.

Here with go with the rap bashing again. If you wish to remain ignorant about the fact that there's plenty of rap music that does not pertain to "thug life, bling, bitches, and hoes" that's fine and dandy. Just keep it to your dumb, ignorant self.
Baylen | April 12, 2007, 10:16am | #

jimmydageek,

Regarding your 9:37am comment, this is more apt:
Sharpton also denounced what he called "negro amnesia" among a generation of black people who had forgotten the sacrifices of people who were jailed, beaten and even killed for their involvement in the civil rights movement 40 to 50 years ago.

He took particular aim at rap artists whose violent lyrics refer to women in derogatory terms.

"To think that we have come down dangerous alleys, that we have traveled through the backwoods of terror, that we have survived beatings, been shot down in cold blood doesn't give you the right to call your mama a whore," Sharpton said.
I'm still waiting for Sharpton to have a Bob Barr moment and become a libertarian. It'd be way cooler to have the Rev. on our team than Barr.
Lamar | April 12, 2007, 10:17am | #

Dhex,

It's almost like you're saying there's nothing that can be done about black racists, but since white racists have establishments, we can break them apart. How does this fit into Joe's definition of victimhood?

Don Imus can go to any radio station that will hire him, just as any black rapper can go from a major label to a local publisher.
Cab | April 12, 2007, 10:17am | #

Jake, Jake, Jake, "lean" has nothing to do with body mass. Lean is a stance, like a "hellified gansta lean."

Everything else was spot on!
John | April 12, 2007, 10:19am | #

Malkin misses the right target. The right target is condescending whites in the media who laud garbage hip hop as "authentic black culture" like black people are these exotic creatures to be seen in a zoo. The very same people who are piling on Imus right now (that is when they are not on his show kissing his ass pushing their books) thought it was great that the song "Its Hard Out There For A Pimp" was nominated for an Oscar.

Yeah portraying women as bitches and whores is disgusting and wrong. When Black rappers do it white elites and media types sit around point and say "oh look at the dangerous negro expressing his authentic culture and the world around him and subverting our racist bourgeoisie standards of conduct". When Imus does it they all have a fainting fit at how anyone could be so cruel and horrible. The hypocrisy and bullshit over this thing is stacking up pretty quick.
Cab | April 12, 2007, 10:21am | #

jimmydageek, I wasn't bashing rap. Read it again. You seem a bit on edge, anything I can do to help?
Chris S. | April 12, 2007, 10:24am | #

Jake, that was a brilliant translation.
joe | April 12, 2007, 10:26am | #

Yeah, John, and how come the uptight schoolmarms who break up fights in the hallway are always praising Shakespeare plays that have absurd amounts of violence?

Oh. Right. It's that whole "fiction vs. reality" thing.
jimmydageek | April 12, 2007, 10:27am | #

Cab,

"Rap music is a caricature, everyone knows it, especially those that listen to it."

car·i·ca·ture (kr-k-chr, -chr)
n.
1.
a. A representation, especially pictorial or literary, in which the subject's distinctive features or peculiarities are deliberately exaggerated to produce a comic or grotesque effect.


You're saying all rap exaggerates in order to produce a comic or grotesque effect? That's not bashing all rap? Had you said some rap you would have a point, but you generalized all rap instead.
John | April 12, 2007, 10:28am | #

Well then Joe, I guess you don't have a problem with Imus. He was making a joke. That whole fiction versus reality thing. Sometimes you surprise me. I never took you for an Imus guy.
VM | April 12, 2007, 10:29am | #

Cab - jimmy's cloned Noam blow up doll hasn't gotten there yet. he has a BATIN GAP!
jimmydageek | April 12, 2007, 10:30am | #

I sure as hell hope you sent it overnight mail, VM!
R C Dean | April 12, 2007, 10:31am | #

He's a cultural scold.

Understatement of the year.

Also a race-baiting hustler. I'm with Imus on one question: when's Sharpton going to apologize to those Duke lacrosse players? I suspect the Duke students can put up quite a bill of particulars as to the damage they have suffered, but as far as I can tell no harm was done to the Rutgers women aside from hurt feelings. Who deserves an apology more?
Mike Kozlowski | April 12, 2007, 10:31am | #

...Interstingly, on his show this morning, Imus asked when Sharpton was going to apologize to the Duke lacrosse players. This could be good.

Mike
joe | April 12, 2007, 10:33am | #

John,

He was expressing an idea as himself. His slur was used to further the point that he was actually making.

No, John, expressing your genuine opinions in a humorous vein does not allow you to disassociate yourself from them.
I. Self. Divine. | April 12, 2007, 10:33am | #

...Interstingly, on his show this morning, Imus asked when Sharpton was going to apologize to the Duke lacrosse players. This could be good.

[Makes popcorn]
The Market | April 12, 2007, 10:34am | #

Ads have been pulled. Which means that I have decided.

Move along, there's nothing to see here.

As libertarians, you have an obligation to shut up and stop bitching the moment that I decide something. And I have decided. I am the real Decider. What more could you want than to see My market forces decide this?
joe | April 12, 2007, 10:34am | #

We must immediately ignore the issue of Al Sharpton's wrongdoings, because the person who brought them up has a sordid history when it comes to race relations.

Or something.
VM | April 12, 2007, 10:36am | #

"What more could you want than to see My market forces decide this?"

why, MATT DAMON humping the DEMAND KURV, of course.

(and I expect you to give credit (see above) from where you plagiarized that idea. Imus will show up with Nifong to collect royalties)
The Market | April 12, 2007, 10:38am | #

I will only give credit to VM if My market forces decide that I should.

I'm consulting my advertisers. In the mean time, you should just shut up and stop bitching, because the corporations (in their corporation buildings) are doing their corporation thing and deciding whether to pull ads.
John | April 12, 2007, 10:39am | #

Joe,

You have no problem with art that glorifies violence and a horrible culture? You think that movies like Hustle and Flow that glamorize and give a sympathetic portrayal to pimps, people in reality are some of the worst viztimizers of women in our society? You have absolutely no objection to rap songs that portray women as bitches and whores and then market themselves to kids? Let me guess, you think that it is horrible that McDonalds will market big macs to 10 year olds, but it is okay for the music industry to sell Crunk to 12 year olds and the people who do it are artists and somehow better than Imus?
The Market | April 12, 2007, 10:40am | #

My market forces have decided to give credit to VM, at an interest rate determined by market forces.

Happy now?
John | April 12, 2007, 10:44am | #

All I am saying Joe is that if you are going to slap down Imus for referring to black women as "Hos", then you need to slap down a lot of other people in this society who have made the term ubiquitous. Just because it is "fiction" doesn't make it any better.
VM | April 12, 2007, 10:45am | #

No.

I wanna sell the credit and blow it all on really funky assless chaps.

And the corporations getting all corporation-ey in their buildings. And they make money. And do action films.

AND! furthermore. Let's start making lists of people who are in the "just a joke, lighten up people" camp, and see where they get all insulted and shit!

Plus, I'm out of cheetos, and grandma won't let me leave the basement, because there's some shit like the okrin man here. or is it "orken"? "orkan"? Nein.

It's some heavy shit here.

Just you wait for tomorrow. OPPOSITE DAY!
Timothy | April 12, 2007, 10:49am | #

Jake: Thanks for that, you'd think growing up on the rough, needle-covered streets of Lake Oswego would've given me some insight into this mean-streets based "hip-hop" music...but, woefully, that is not the case.
de stijl | April 12, 2007, 10:50am | #

...you'd better focus on the beam...

Steven King Gunslinger reference?
jimmydageek | April 12, 2007, 10:53am | #

Contrary to popular belief, tomorrow is not opposite day.
VM | April 12, 2007, 10:55am | #

that's not opposite. that's just contradiction.
Hooked on Innuendo | April 12, 2007, 10:56am | #

You have no problem with art that glorifies violence and a horrible culture? You think that movies like Hustle and Flow that glamorize and give a sympathetic portrayal to pimps, people in reality are some of the worst viztimizers of women in our society? You have absolutely no objection to rap songs that portray women as bitches and whores and then market themselves to kids?

The interesting thing about R-rated rap music is that it describes American culture as a whole, but it uses blunt language and graphic examples that polite society would never employ.

American culture in general still objectifies women and glorifies violence. If you feel that's "horrible", fine, but don't act like rappers aren't performing the service of describing reality in a way that most of us never could get away with.
R C Dean | April 12, 2007, 11:00am | #

We must immediately ignore the issue of Al Sharpton's wrongdoings, because the person who brought them up has a sordid history when it comes to race relations.

WTF, joe? On these boards, I think I was the first person to roll my eyes re: Al Sharpton's delicate racial sensitivities.

Are you saying I have a sordid history?

Or are you now objectively pro-Sharpton, per your dig at me yesterday?

VM is right - I don't recall seeing any government fingerprints on this. This is pretty much a social/cultural issue. Which libertarians have just as much right to opine on as anyone else.
joe | April 12, 2007, 11:00am | #

John,

"You have no problem with art that glorifies violence and a horrible culture?"

Are you talking about uber-violent westerns glorifying the violence of the Old West, or Southern Gothic literature glorifying the violence of the post-Bellum South? Or maybe Mad Max movies "glorifying" the wonders of a post-apocalyptic world?

Do you think the Geto Boys were actually glorigying serial murders?

It's. A. Story. Fiction. Unlike Imus's remarks, and his whole history of racist bullshit, in which he is actually sitting and talking about what he actually thinks, the lyrics of gangsta rap songs, for the most part, are deliberately over-the-top fantasies.

Not to mention, if you'd ever actually listened to any rap music instead of just taking Michelle Malkin's word for it, you might notice that the music doesn't "glorify" the culture, but run it down, in order to make the "hero" who manages to survive and thrive in the midst of it seem even more heroic.
MP | April 12, 2007, 11:03am | #

All I am saying Joe is that if you are going to slap down Imus for referring to black women as "Hos", then you need to slap down a lot of other people in this society who have made the term ubiquitous. Just because it is "fiction" doesn't make it any better.

But, he's WHITE! And OLD! And RICH! white white white old old old rich rich rich
joe | April 12, 2007, 11:03am | #

RC Dean,

I was talking about Imus, and his comments about Sharpton today.

I've spent days reading that THE REAL ISSUE isn't Imus, but Al Sharpton criticizing Imus, because of Sharpton's history. You, as a matter of fact, have been pushing that theme pretty hard.

I'm throwing it back in your face, because by this logic, we can't criticize Al Sharpton. THE REAL ISSUE isn't what Sharpton did, but the way that Imus has no standing to criticize him.

Which is complete bullshit, just as the original argument I was mocking was bullshit.
John | April 12, 2007, 11:03am | #

"American culture in general still objectifies women and glorifies violence. If you feel that's "horrible", fine, but don't act like rappers aren't performing the service of describing reality in a way that most of us never could get away with."

Then where do we get off bitching about Imus then? He was describing a reality. By that standard Imus was just performing a service for us. I suppose the Nazi Death Metal bands that out there doing "Death to Jews and Blacks" concept records are describing their reality to. Why aren't they getting Oscar nominations? If the standard is that anyone who says something that reflects some reality no matter how disgusting and demeaning, then get off Imus's back. If that is not the standard and we are going to crucify Imus, then start saying something about the rap acts. Beyond that, art drives society as much as society drives art. Everyone admits the effects of propaganda on society in every other circumstance (for example the effect of Nazi propaganda on Germany) why can't we see how Rap makes our society more misogynistic and more violent?
jimmydageek | April 12, 2007, 11:05am | #

Not to mention, if you'd ever actually listened to any rap music instead of just taking Michelle Malkin's word for it, you might notice that the music doesn't "glorify" the culture, but run it down, in order to make the "hero" who manages to survive and thrive in the midst of it seem even more heroic.

In the words of Slick Rick, "Pimping ain't easy."
joe | April 12, 2007, 11:05am | #

"All I am saying Joe is that if you are going to slap down Imus for referring to black women as "Hos", then you need to slap down a lot of other people in this society who have made the term ubiquitous."

Eh. Dirty words are dirty words.

Hurling them at actual people - not made-up characters in a silly song that isn't intended to convey any message, but to use those words to insult actual people - is a worse transgression.
joe | April 12, 2007, 11:07am | #

"He was describing a reality."

John, did you intend to agree that the Rutger's Women's Basketball Team are "nappy-haired hos?"
John | April 12, 2007, 11:09am | #

Joe,

I supervise and work with a bunch of 18 to 22 year olds. I have heard more rap than I ever want to hear in 10 lifetimes. You don't know shit. It totally glorifies violence and the thug culture. I have people who have served below me who get spit on when they go back to their old neighborhoods because they are going to college and have never been in jail. The culture in the inner city is completely fucked up. Now, does rap reflect a culture that was already there? Of course. But it also drives that culture. The influence goes both ways.
joe | April 12, 2007, 11:11am | #

Oh give me a break. You can't make out the lyrics and you know it.

"It totally glorifies violence and the thug culture." I believe that YOU believe it, John.
John | April 12, 2007, 11:11am | #

Joe,

It is called irony. Read the damn post in conext. The point was that if Rappers are just decribing a reality, then why wasn't Imus? The standard applies to both and it doesn't work in either case. I need to remember to write in simpler terms so you will understand.
Hooked on Innuendo | April 12, 2007, 11:13am | #

If the standard is that anyone who says something that reflects some reality no matter how disgusting and demeaning, then get off Imus's back. If that is not the standard and we are going to crucify Imus, then start saying something about the rap acts.

Imus in many ways does fullfill a similar role -like Howard Stern, his "job" is to "say the things that people are thinking but are scared to say." It may not be pleasant but even in this case he's expressing an idea that more people agree with than who are likely to admit it.

I don't know if Imus "describes reality" but he does give voice to a certain point of view that must be held by a lot of people, hence his popularity.
Lamar | April 12, 2007, 11:13am | #

Joe,

I agree that the issue isn't Al Sharpton per se. This is an issue about propriety and consequences of crossing the line. I don't see how it is possible to assess "propriety" outside of a cultural context. If nobody is offended by these words, then there is no problem. How do we know when things are offensive? These words have been put out there by many people of color, and nobody has lost their job over it.

The precedent we have set is that inappropriate language does not lead to firing. If it did, Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson would not have a radio show. Neither would Rush Limbaugh.
Cesar | April 12, 2007, 11:18am | #

Whenever they play this game with rap lyrics, why doesn't someone point out that 90% of that crap is bought by white middle-class teenagers?
John | April 12, 2007, 11:20am | #

Hooked,

Fair enough. If you want to let Imus off the hook, then at least you are consistant. I am not so sure that you aren't right in that artists are just artists and it shouldn't matter what any of them say, although I am skeptical. But, better that position than the Joe position that calling black women whores is only bad when white people say it but just okiedokie when a black rapper does it.
Hooked on Innuendo | April 12, 2007, 11:23am | #

Fair enough. If you want to let Imus off the hook, then at least you are consistant.

Thanks. I for one think the Imus thing is a tempest in a teapot but I guess it does provoke us into having discussions on racial issues which still very much exist just below the surface.
Madog | April 12, 2007, 11:25am | #

Hip hop is the new jazz.
joe | April 12, 2007, 11:26am | #

John,

I didn't make the "just describing a reality" argument. I stated just the opposite, that these were fantasies intended to be fun, no different than a video game or slasher movie.

If you want to argue with what I've written, please do so.
joe | April 12, 2007, 11:28am | #

Lamar,

I'm not claiming that the lyrics of much rap music is no offensive. I'm saying that the offense is safely kept behind a wall of silliness and fantasy.

One might as well complain that the makers of zombie movies are disrespectful to camping teenagers.
kohlrabi | April 12, 2007, 11:28am | #

"Hip hop is the new jazz."

ROTFLMAO!
Lamar | April 12, 2007, 11:29am | #

And physically fit basketball players are offensive to Paris Hilton-types.
Hooked on Innuendo | April 12, 2007, 11:31am | #

Let me say that Joe is not entirely wrong on his take that much rap is fantasy but I do think that all stories, no matter how fantastic or overblown, tell us something about the human condition. People fantasize about things for a reason.
de stijl | April 12, 2007, 11:34am | #

I wonder what the hook-nosed JAPs of Brandeis or the flat-assed squaws of the College of Menominee Nation basketball teams think about the matter.
VM | April 12, 2007, 11:36am | #

de stijl - just ask Chief Wahoo.

you little dutch girl, you. hey - your country is a swamp. you're under water.

WTF with yer wooden shoes. Your queen is named, "Beatrix". "Queen Bee"? WTF.

and make up your fucking mind. Speak english or german. not that gutteral hack hack shit you call a language.

AND FOR THE LAST TIME, STAY OUT OF BELGIUM.
(lighten up. tis just a joke)

But Ajax rocks.
ChicagoTom | April 12, 2007, 11:39am | #

Rap lyrics -- which talk about thug life and culture and things, have absolutely nothing at all to do with this story.

The "story" is that IMUS called out a specific group of people.

There are pimps and hos in the world, and to make mention of them is not problematic in and of itself. But to call out someone specific and to label them "nappy headed hoes" when they are nothing of the sort isn't a "commentary on culture" or anything like that -- it is an outright attack on a group of people that is masked in a type of "humor" that appeals to racists and mysoginists. (I thought humor was supposed to be funny, by the way).

Anyone who is trying to make this story about what rappers do or say in their lyrics are merely trying to obfuscate the issue. The issue is that low-life Don Imus decided to attack a group of girls for no good reason. What exactly was his commentary??? What exactly was his point? Nothing other than to get a laugh out of people who already hate women and blacks.

Stop trying to change the subject. No matter what anyone else says, that doesn't give Imus a reason or an excuse for doing what he did.

Context does matter. He singled these poor girls out. They were real victims, not just faceless concepts or caricatures.
de stijl | April 12, 2007, 11:41am | #

In the words of Slick Rick, "Pimping ain't easy."

There lived a lil' boy who was misled,
by anotha lil' boy and this is what he said:

Big Daddy Kane has a beef with you, jimmydageek.
Shem | April 12, 2007, 11:41am | #

I really can't believe that you said a rapper can't be fired. Are you kidding? Was there a joke I missed? Or were you so focused on pushing the superiority of boycotts that you forgot that anybody working for somebody else can be fired?

50 Cent owns his own label. Unless Interscope wants to spend a fortune trying to end their distribution deal, there's little they can do to him. If you actually took the time to gain an understanding of the situation before you decide you're an expert on it.
joe | April 12, 2007, 11:42am | #

Hooked on Innuendo,

I suspect that rap musicians and their producers "fantasize" about gang violence and misogyny mainly because of what they saw on the P Diddy episode of MTV's "Cribs."
dhex | April 12, 2007, 11:42am | #

"It's almost like you're saying there's nothing that can be done about black racists, but since white racists have establishments, we can break them apart. How does this fit into Joe's definition of victimhood?"

no, what i'm saying is that if i run troma films (home of toxic avenger and other z-grade films - to be fair "surf nazis must die" is actually quite great, as is the first nuke 'em high movie...but i digress) and you want to stop me from making stupid movies that are exploitive, low grade and otherwise disgusting, your best bet as a consumer or scold is external pressure where it hurts. harass distributors, boycott products, pressure retail outlets not to carry my stuff.

otherwise you're yelling at a z-grade movie outfit for making z-grade movies. that seems kinda counterproductive, like telling porno makers they make sexually explicit material that's gross.

to pick another random example, i'm relapse records and you want to complain about a band on our label called pig destroyer (pig = cop / destroyer = one who destroys):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_Destroyer

they have a song off of terrifyer (their best album for those playing along at home, though not as "political" as earlier works) called "pretty in casts" which (supposedly) the lyrics are as follows:

maybe she'll snap her wrists doing cartwheels or her ankle dancing drunken
at some rave maybe she'll go through a windshield and have twinkling bits of
glass stuck in her face she's so pretty in her casts damaged so perfectly
she's so pretty in her casts the prettiest thing I've ever seen I only get
to hold her when she's injured I only get to kiss her where she's sore

which is both disturbing and somewhat rapey (great song though) and unintelligible even when reading along with the above. how else are you going to put pressure on the label? shame them? it's an extreme metal label, doing what an extreme metal label is supposed to do.

and i am somewhat sympathetic to imus' particular plight in this area (so long as i don't think about his gruesome visage) because he was doing what he was supposed to be doing - being a fuckface. that's his job.

as for the second part, i don't know, you'd have to ask joe, since i'm not up on his victimhoodology.
Mike Laursen | April 12, 2007, 11:45am | #

Why is Kurt Vonnegut dead and Michelle Malkin still alive?
: - | April 12, 2007, 11:45am | #

Comedy gold, Jake. Can you translate of those songs where the three ho-, I mean girls are all singing different hip-hoppy words at the same time? They make me dizzy and happy I'm not a Baptist.
Hooked on Innuendo | April 12, 2007, 11:47am | #

Hooked on Innuendo,

I suspect that rap musicians and their producers "fantasize" about gang violence and misogyny mainly because of what they saw on the P Diddy episode of MTV's "Cribs."

Maybe, but somebody was the first to have the idea and it caught on because is resonated with people. Any successful artistic endeavor will result in copycats trying to make a quick buck but that doesn't mean that none of it is authentic.
dhex | April 12, 2007, 11:47am | #

i wish i could up the peel session of lightning bolt from the ATP show in 2004 where brian chippendale introduces "dead cowboy" (their only explicitly political song, really) as "this is our fraggle rock cowboy song...called throw george bush in a pit and cover him with boiling oil."

please send this info along to all the conservatives you know because i want lightning bolt to be rich and famous as they utterly kick ass.
jimmydageek | April 12, 2007, 11:52am | #

Actually, de stijl, Ice-T would have beef with me. Slick Rick's was just the 1st one that popped in my head.
Lamar | April 12, 2007, 11:56am | #

Shem:

Brilliant. Interscope can't fire 50 Cent unless they fire him, and if they fire him they lose money? Is that your argument? MSNBC will lose money by firing a successful on-air talent. Perhaps I'm not an expert, but I know music distribution deals, and in fact, they are no different than many other contracts.

Your whole analysis is that it is too expensive to fire rappers? Fine. That doesn't change the fact that these people can, and apparently in today's climate, should be fired. Owning a label is nothing. Imus owns his own studio. What's your point? Pressure was put on MSNBC, and the same pressure should be put on Interscope and its affiliates. If you're such an expert, why don't you know that Interscope is owned by A&M? Who owns A&M? Universal Music Group. Oh, but you were saying something about nobody can fire 50 Cent? Surely Universal Music Group has no power....
Cab | April 12, 2007, 11:57am | #

jimmydageek, yes, I think rap is a caricature. And yes, a caricature means representing peculiarities in a deliberately exaggerated way to produce a comic effect.

Unless, of course, you see some deep meaning to "Candy Shop" I'm not seeing.
Lamar | April 12, 2007, 11:58am | #

Perhaps we agree dhex. I'm not in favor of some jackass at Staples deciding what I can and can't watch. I'm in favor of the boycotts you're talking about. The way I see it, if you can't get enough support to make a boycott work, you don't have enough support for your cause. The point I'm making is that we should be consistent when we demand that people be fired. We're very selective right now, and it arises from the fact that black people have a lexicon that is de facto forbidden to whites.
Snow | April 12, 2007, 11:59am | #

TORONTO!
Jim Murphy | April 12, 2007, 12:00pm | #

I'll preface this by saying that I'm a huge hip-hop fan, and have several gigs of it on my iPod. Since I came up on the west coast (well, the needle strewn mean streets of Bountiful, Utah) I have a real preference for the West Coast gangsta sound past and present. But...

Hip hop is the new jazz.

ROTFL!!!

When hip hop produces a Miles Davis, Charlie Parker or John Coltrane feel free to let me know...

Again, as a hip-hop fan this comparison is absurd. Jazz requires an ungodly level of musical virtuosity. Hip-hop, for better or worse, doesn't.
R C Dean | April 12, 2007, 12:01pm | #

I've spent days reading that THE REAL ISSUE isn't Imus, but Al Sharpton criticizing Imus, because of Sharpton's history. You, as a matter of fact, have been pushing that theme pretty hard.

Bullshit, joe. I find that particular angle of this amusing whole kerfuffle amusing. If I have four comments on it here, I'd be surprised.

Sharpton is just a stand-in, anyway, for frustration over double-standards in our culture. Are you saying that's not a real issue? Sharpton just provides the most pointed example of these double standards in action.

I'm throwing it back in your face, because by this logic, we can't criticize Al Sharpton.

By what logic? I'm (that's me, not anyone with a history of racial malfeasance) saying Al Sharpton is a pretty sorry posterboy for racial sensitivity, given his history of racial malfeasance. I don't get the logic in your argument that someone with clean hands (that would be me) can't criticize someone with dirty hands (that would be Sharpton), because I point out the irony of someone with dirty hands (Sharpton again) criticizing someone else (Imus, this time).

THE REAL ISSUE isn't what Sharpton did, but the way that Imus has no standing to criticize him.

You see the non sequitur in claiming I can't criticise Sharpton because Imus has no standing to do so?

No matter what anyone else says, that doesn't give Imus a reason or an excuse for doing what he did.

And I never said it did. No comment of mine can be construed in any way to support Don Imus comments about Rutgers.
jimmydageek | April 12, 2007, 12:05pm | #

Cab,

Again, there's plenty of rap music that does not pertain to thug life, bling, bitches and hoes. Candy Shop is in the realm of the latter. Again, take your ignorance and shove it up your ass.
Sambo | April 12, 2007, 12:07pm | #

Don Imus died for Crystal Gail Mangum's sins.
Rapper's Delight! | April 12, 2007, 12:09pm | #

Sugar Hill Gang!
dhex | April 12, 2007, 12:10pm | #

to be fair, a lot of the "conscious" stuff is pretty bad. on the other hand, the new kweli album is going to be great!

"The point I'm making is that we should be consistent when we demand that people be fired. We're very selective right now, and it arises from the fact that black people have a lexicon that is de facto forbidden to whites."

yeah, basically. i mean, i don't really have much of a problem with that, however, especially since what we're really asking is for al sharpton to be more consistent. not really going to happen. that's like asking bill donohue to have perspective. just not going to happen.

i am still somewhat surprised that someone saying "these female basketball players aren't enough of a sexual object as my tastes would demand" doesn't get more scrutiny. it's not like he picked on another entertainer, but instead on a women's college basketball team.
Sambo | April 12, 2007, 12:12pm | #

"We're very selective right now, and it arises from the fact that black people have a lexicon that is de facto forbidden to whites."

But that's ALL we got. And it ain't nuthin'.
de stijl | April 12, 2007, 12:20pm | #

VM name-checks Snow? As in Twelve Inches of ...? The Vanilla Ice of the Great White North?

Jimmydageek, Why would any of the Ices care about a Big Daddy Kane song? I'll even include the Ices from Fear Of A Black Hat (Ice Cold, Ice Tray, Ice Coffee, Ice Water, Iceberg, Ice Cup, Ice Box).

Jim Murphy, Does verbal virtuosity count for anything?

it arises from the fact that black people have a lexicon that is de facto forbidden to whites.

Boo friggin' hoo.
Artists United Against Apartheid | April 12, 2007, 12:22pm | #

except for bozo...

MR STEVEN CRANE!!!!
Rhywun | April 12, 2007, 12:23pm | #

I'm no fan of rap, but reading those lyrics does kind of crack me up. And the posturing is so ridiculous. I find the whole genre of "I'm the greatest thing ever" lyrics to be really off-putting.
VM | April 12, 2007, 12:28pm | #

So, you're not fergielicious?

:)

Alanis digs it :)
de stijl | April 12, 2007, 12:33pm | #

I just read about the Alanis cover of My Humps yesterday. Ms. Morrisette is now an immortal genius in my book.
joe | April 12, 2007, 12:34pm | #

RC, I think you missed the fact that my comment was meant to be ironic.

"Sharpton is just a stand-in, anyway, for frustration over double-standards in our culture. Are you saying that's not a real issue?" Sure it is, but you know how sometimes you encounter people who respond to every observation about a problem on the other side of the world with an accusation about America? Same thing - what the hell does Emmitt Till have to do with Zimbabwe? Oh, right, it changes the subject.

Anyway, I wasn't accusing you of not having clean enough hands to criticize Sharpton. I'm not even saying those without clean hands (and whose hands are completely clean, anyway?) can't ever level criticism. I'm mocking that position, and the people who have been arguing it, i.r.t. Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson and unnamed (but always Democratic) "race hustlers." I reject that logic as the irrational, shady dodge that it is.

I wrote that comment to draw attention to the intellectual dishonesty of responding to this episode by criticizing Al Sharpton.
VM | April 12, 2007, 12:35pm | #

in canada cats grow on trees

(must be all that korn syrup)

Chicago Tom still is in the lead today! Well Spake!
joe | April 12, 2007, 12:37pm | #

"I find the whole genre of "I'm the greatest thing ever" lyrics to be really off-putting."

Eh. It goes back to the blues. Muddy Waters gets all the women and has expensive clothing.

Rap is just more wordy than the blues.
Lamar | April 12, 2007, 12:47pm | #

Fats Domino's "thrill" on Blueberry Hill was clearly a ho. and a pimp. and a bitch. Right? That's what we're doing now? We're denying that hip hop went from anger to hate? Not ALL hip hop, just the relevant hip hop.
Rev. Al | April 12, 2007, 12:56pm | #

Go 'way!

Race baitin'
dhex | April 12, 2007, 1:02pm | #

"So, you're not fergielicious?"

she's hot and all, but can someone convince her not to sing?

my favorite dos and donts item in the vice book was the girl in the cowboy hat and shredded jeans that read "she may be hot, but sex is twenty minutes. listening to her talk about the black eyed peas for three hours is an eternity."
50 Cent | April 12, 2007, 1:03pm | #

-Not to mention, if you'd ever actually listened to any rap music instead of just taking Michelle Malkin's word for it, you might notice that the music doesn't "glorify" the culture, but run it down, in order to make the "hero" who manages to survive and thrive in the midst of it seem even more heroic.-

Thanks dude, I knew someone would figure my shit out.
Cab | April 12, 2007, 1:07pm | #

jimmy, someone ought to teach you some manners, something your daddy evidently didn't do.
Lamar | April 12, 2007, 1:08pm | #

Yeah, Cab. There's a small, irrelevant minority of rap songs that Jimmydageek would like to characterize as the mainstream of rap. Where's your sensitivity?
VM | April 12, 2007, 1:09pm | #

dhex - hilarious.

confession: don't know who she is and have never heard her or the blacked eyed peas. I got the reference from "Mike and Mike in the Morning"

Rev Al - so, are you telling me I have to have diversity in my blow up doll collection if I want to maintain federal funding?

hrumph.
/kicks pebble
joe | April 12, 2007, 1:13pm | #

The mute button works just as well on Fergie as it does on Michelle Malkin.

Ow, what just hit me in the back of the head?
R C Dean | April 12, 2007, 1:15pm | #

RC, I think you missed the fact that my comment was meant to be ironic.

Guilty. Its getting so hard to tell the diff, these days.

I wrote that comment to draw attention to the intellectual dishonesty of responding to this episode by criticizing Al Sharpton.

What's intellectually dishonest about being (a) completely silent on Imus and (b) taking this opportunity to kick Sharpton in the 'nads?

I regard Sharpton, Jackson, and their ilk as enormously cynical and hypocritical people who have damaged not only their putative constituents in the black community but society as a whole. Anytime they stick their heads out I'm going to take a shot at them. I don't care what the context is.
jimmydageek | April 12, 2007, 1:18pm | #

You're right, Cab, my daddy wasn't around to teach me manners. Was yours around teaching you that ignorance is bliss? Or did you figure that one out on your own?

Lamar, I'm not characterizing it as the mainstream of rap. I didn't say that, did I? I know what the mainstream is and I know that the mainstream stuff is mostly crap. I simply pointed out that not all rap is like the mainstream crap. There is a difference.
jimmydageek | April 12, 2007, 1:20pm | #

VM,

In the process of cloning your Noam Chomsky doll, simply add some darker pigment here and there. And maybe some nappy hair.
Cab | April 12, 2007, 1:22pm | #

I was just in a 7-Eleven during lunch and glanced over at the cover of XXL magazine and thought, "you know, that geeky jimmy guy is right, there is no caricature there, just a guy with a hand grenade in his mouth......how poignant"
Jake Boone | April 12, 2007, 1:24pm | #

Can you translate of those songs where the three ho-, I mean girls are all singing different hip-hoppy words at the same time?

I certainly can! Point me to the song, and I'll translate it! It's my service to the community! Or, in other words, my court-mandated community service!
dhex | April 12, 2007, 1:25pm | #

moose, forgive me for i know not what i do:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_eyed_peas

you can google image search for the rest.
jimmydageek | April 12, 2007, 1:31pm | #

Cab,

You won't acknowledge that there's other rap other than the caricature-rap you refer to. I'll quit trying to explain and revert to my resolve that you're just an ignorant prick.

Jake Boone, I'd like the interpretation for this song, please.
Cab | April 12, 2007, 1:33pm | #

Let's play a game there, geeky. I'll post a picture and you see if your infinite powers of deduction can pick out any hints of caricaturization.

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B000JMKKH2.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_V43106582_AA240_.jpg

I know, I know..... it subtle, but if you look closely you may see an exaggeration or two.

Tell your daddy I love him.....he tried.
dhex | April 12, 2007, 1:35pm | #

my turn:

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B000O3QSF4.01-A39844XYY4YTEZ._SCLZZZZZZZ_V43854074_SS500_.jpg

(disclaimer: i think madlib is overrated)
VM | April 12, 2007, 1:35pm | #

dhex - I'm gonna stick with the "ignorance is bliss" while I'm working on my noam chomsky doll.

*there. shaved off my mehair gloves. How do I nappify it? I tried playing "Party All the Time" for the doll merkin, but that just gave me an "innie" (I shan't elaborate). hmmmmmm.
*******************

Cab! JimmydaGeek! Do not let anger rule the day!

*boom*

Son, you're on your own.
de stijl | April 12, 2007, 1:41pm | #

VM,

I was talking to Rev. Al (after he finished baitin') and he said a Farrakhan doll oughta do it. His exact words were:

Farrakhan's a blow-up doll that I think you ouught to listen to.

Early '90s rap satire movie showdown - Fear Of a Black Hat vs. CB4?

IMO, FoaBH was truer to the Spinal Tap vibe and the fake interviews were pretty funny. The Kriss Kross knock-off bit was priceless.
Cab | April 12, 2007, 1:46pm | #

VM - anger leads to hate, thanks for reminding me. Therefore I am willing to compromise with my new aptly named friend.

geeky - I'll admit not all rap is a caricature if you admit not all rap is Maya Angelou lyrics set to a beat you can dance to.

(That's as civil as I can get for the time being.)
Daniel DiRito | April 12, 2007, 1:52pm | #

Frankly, we are fast becoming the epitome of a Jerry Springer society. It seems to have become more important to have an audience and notoriety when confronting conflict than it is to attain resolve and mutual respect. That model seems to serve the needs of the exploited and those who seek to exploit; reinforcing all that relegates objectivity to the outhouse while making the frailty and imperfection of the human condition a spectacle that harkens back to the Coliseum.

This situation isn't and shouldn't be about whether liberals or conservatives, this race or that race, hip hop or honky-tonk, one group or another, are more offensive and therefore more responsible for all that is wrong with America. I am not capable of judging the whole of Don Imus nor am I capable of crafting a recipe to fix all of America...and neither are the countless pundits and partisans who have sought to frame it so.

I'm not a religious person...but I often find kinship with the imagery surrounding the portrayal of one called Jesus and his teachings of understanding and forgiveness. For all the banter I hear about the Bible and Christian values, it certainly seems to me that we are fast abandoning what many view as the sacred "tablets" in favor of the sacrosanct tabloids. If I'm right, all I can say is heaven help us.

Read more about the dynamics that lead a situation to become larger than the sum of its parts...here:

www.thoughttheater.com
VM | April 12, 2007, 1:53pm | #

"if you admit not all rap is Maya Angelou lyrics set to a beat you can dance to.

(That's as civil as I can get for the time being.)"

wellll... you've obviously never seen JimmydaGeek on the dance floor. please, please, please rephrase to "set to a beat that [someone, anyone else] can dance to"

And you can borrow my Farrakhan doll - I'll stuff it with Noam chomsky for a "Farraksy" (think: the turducken of batin!)

*now, to try something else to nappify the hair. Hey Crane - chest hair. c'mere!
jimmydageek | April 12, 2007, 1:56pm | #

I was never angry. When I throw around terms like, "dumb f*ck" etc, I do it with a perfectly serene mindset. Nor did I ever hate Cab. Hate just sucks.

Cab, I never said "all rap is Maya Angelou lyrics set to a beat you can dance to." So, there's nothing for me to admit since I never made any implication to the contrary.
dead_elvis | April 12, 2007, 1:58pm | #

The Muppets say Fuck the Police

Oh my goodness, those nice young men in NWA sure do swear a lot. ("A mix of all the nwa cursing", NSFW!)
VM | April 12, 2007, 1:59pm | #

meta dialog!

"I never made any implication to the contrary."

yes you did.

[ducks]

Danny there is obviously A King Without a Crown
jimmydageek | April 12, 2007, 2:02pm | #

"I'm not a religious person...but I often find kinship with the imagery surrounding the portrayal of one called Jesus and his teachings of understanding and forgiveness. For all the banter I hear about the Bible and Christian values, it certainly seems to me that we are fast abandoning what many view as the sacred "tablets" in favor of the sacrosanct tabloids. If I'm right, all I can say is heaven help us."

I didn't know non-religious people believed in heaven.
de stijl | April 12, 2007, 2:09pm | #

Q: What's the difference between a bitch and a ho?

A: A ho fucks EVERYBODY. A bitch fucks everybody BUT YOU.

Holy shit, I thought I was the only one who listened to Tonedeff. Incidentally he and PackFM are quite possibly my favorite rappers behind Eyedea, Slug, and Sage Francis. And the song that line is from (Disappointed) is fucking classic. props

I. Self. Divine.|4.12.07 @ 2:49PM|#

Uhhh...I think I broke the internet. That was only supposed to quote de stijl's last comment.

VM|4.12.07 @ 2:51PM|#

Vote early. Vote often. Who gets to blanket beat ISD for that post?

Aresen - you can decide if other punishments are in order, given your strict Canadian sensibilities!

ooh! I know - he has to attend every poetry slam night in Tofino for six straight seasons!

catch you tomorrow High#!

|4.12.07 @ 2:58PM|#

Uhhh...I think I broke the internet. That was only supposed to quote de stijl's last comment.

Hey, dude, I had nothing to do with it! You broke the intertubes by yourself!

VM|4.12.07 @ 3:05PM|#

just remember de stijl.

just remember...

|4.12.07 @ 3:10PM|#

Joe: quick question: If one can't "disassociate" oneself from ugly language merely by employing a comedic context, why can rappers disassociate themselves from racism by using it in a fantasy context?

dhex|4.12.07 @ 3:16PM|#

"Frankly, we are fast becoming the epitome of a Jerry Springer society."

what like pimping your blog every three seconds?

here's a better viral marketing technique: make interesting comments without an overt sale.

VOICE FOR SKUUL CHOICE! VOICE |4.12.07 @ 3:23PM|#

VOICE FOR SKUUL CHOICE! VOICE FOR SKUUL CHOICE VOICE FOR SKUUL CHOICE! VOICE FOR SKUUL CHOICE VOICE FOR SKUUL CHOICE! VOICE FOR SKUUL CHOICE VOICE FOR SKUUL CHOICE! VOICE FOR SKUUL CHOICE VOICE FOR SKUUL CHOICE! VOICE FOR SKUUL CHOICE VOICE FOR SKUUL CHOICE! VOICE FOR SKUUL CHOICE

-or-

/././././././././. what a guy! /./././././././././././././././.

[keed keed]

|4.12.07 @ 3:40PM|#

Can't the administrators remove unwanted advertising? Seems a little bit like stealing ad space.

Billy Beck|4.12.07 @ 3:47PM|#

"Good stuff"?

You're out of your fucking mind, Weigel.

VM|4.12.07 @ 3:54PM|#

what, Bill, you more of an "Offspring" fan?

|4.12.07 @ 4:01PM|#

Ya gotta keep 'em separated.

|4.12.07 @ 4:05PM|#

Whoa. I just got the weirdest sensation of deja vu.

|4.12.07 @ 4:16PM|#

Who is this Michelle Malkin, and why should I care about what she thinks?

|4.12.07 @ 4:26PM|#

"Does anyone else wonder when joe and John are going to finally shed their catty facades and start making out? It's like Matlin and Carville all over again..."

Like there would be anything wrong with that?

SugarFree|4.12.07 @ 4:33PM|#

Not at all.

|4.12.07 @ 5:06PM|#

My word, you fellas sure love to argue with and insult one another!

|4.12.07 @ 5:16PM|#

Joe and John scissoring? Nothing to see here.

|4.12.07 @ 5:19PM|#

Ya know, I've never really acquired a taste for hip-hop, but maybe I should check it out; anything that arouses the ire of both Malkin and Sharpton must by definition be good...

|4.12.07 @ 5:27PM|#

Imus in the Morning is not a serious news program, it's comedy show geared towards entertainment more than information. Sure he has a lot of politicians on. So do Leno, Letterman, and Jon Stewart but those shows are primarily about comedy too.

If a rapper or singer, or stand-up comedian can say racist or sexist things and insult people and be protected by the fact that it's art or comedy and they are not being serious than a shock jock can too. I don't know what Don Imus really believes in his heart, maybe he is a total fucking racist prick. But it doesn't really matter because when he is behind that microphone he is playing a part just as much as any rapper is. He's the "I-man" when he's on the air. An entertainer trying to say entertaining things and failing miserably.

And as far rap being purely about a fantasy persona? We're those magic fairy bullets that killed Tupac and Biggie? Are the weapons and drug charges Snoop Dogg is currently facing just part of an elaborate act? Eminem singing about wanting to harm his estranged wife was just a total fantasy, right? No real anger there I'm sure.

And all that said, what Imus said was dickish. But am I seriously supposed to believe people were deeply hurt by a bad throwaway racial joke? Have the women of the Rutgers team really never dealt with trash-talking before? They really are hurt by what some old-fart on a radio show they probably never heard of until now says? Can we please acknowledge that this whole thing is just an example of media whores finding a story they can run with and exploiting it for all its worth?

And no I wasnt calling the players media whores.

|4.12.07 @ 6:46PM|#

OK, I'm about the most "anti-racist" white guy in the world.

But the whole overreaction and Sharpton even kinda pisses me off and makes me want to show SUPPORT for Imus.

If it has this effect on me, I can only imgagine how it works on average white people who are borderline racist or not as anti-racist as I am.

What I mean is the Al Sharpton factor probably Backfires, in much the same way as extreme affirmation action.

|4.12.07 @ 7:27PM|#

CBS Radio fires Imus.

Al Sharpton finally got his pound of flesh. For a man who labels himself "reverend" he sure is proud of himself for ruining another man's career.

Here are the companies that put the pressure on to fire Imus: American Express Co., Sprint Nextel Corp., Staples Inc., Procter & Gamble Co. and General Motors Corp.

These corporations are now the new arbiters of taste, and Al Sharpton (who's a racist punk himself) is now man-at-arms. Be very afraid.

|4.12.07 @ 8:04PM|#

CBS Radio fires Imus...Be very afraid.

Yeah? and I've had a long, busy day at work and my kid's sick.

Nuts to ya!

Billy Beck|4.12.07 @ 8:10PM|#

VM -- "what, Bill, you more of an 'Offspring' fan?"

You and I both know that that was in no way a legitimate question, and you can go run your presumptive insinuation on someone else.

I stand by what I said. If Weigel thinks that rot is "good stuff", then the whole discussion stops right then and there.

|4.12.07 @ 8:27PM|#

Jake Boone, I'd like the interpretation for this song, please.

I apologize, jimmydageek, but this song is far too cryptically subtle for even my advanced rap-parsing skills. It's like the "Louie, Louie" of hip-hop.

The best current scholarship on the issue suggests that the song is about a weredog (like in Disney's "The Shaggy Dog"), who has inexplicably been mutated with triceratops DNA. Suffering from a bizarre attraction to bearded ladies, circus midgets, and rubber-faced boys, the singer undergoes voluntary trepannation to allow his ladyfriend to violently exhale directly onto the quivering, gelatinous surface of his brain.

There's also an amusing bit about a cat being placed under arrest.

I'm sorry to disappoint, but if the lyrics were just a bit clearer, we might have a chance of finally deciphering this historical oddity.

|4.12.07 @ 8:33PM|#

Al Sharpton (who's a racist punk himself) is now man-at-arms.

Holy crap, Lamar! If Al Sharpton is now Man-at-Arms, then who's He-Man?

dhex|4.12.07 @ 9:13PM|#

"You and I both know that that was in no way a legitimate question, and you can go run your presumptive insinuation on someone else."

i agree. its the meanest insult i've ever seen on hit and run.

"offspring fan"...jesusmoose whydoncha just kill him?

VM|4.12.07 @ 9:37PM|#

"You and I both know that that was in no way a legitimate question, and you can go run your presumptive insinuation on someone else."

good call! :)

|4.12.07 @ 10:56PM|#

And now the wife's sick too!
Are you happy?

|4.12.07 @ 11:33PM|#

Fuckin' Imus is fuckin' fired. Boo fuckin' hoo! Nobody's fuckin' making him fuckin' live in a fuckin' house of diarrhea and vomit, are they?
Fuckin' prima donna fuckin' radio stars. Fuckin' thinking they don't work for somebody what can tell 'em what to do. God fuckin' damn.

violent_k|4.13.07 @ 12:05AM|#

Highnumber,
I feel for ya, buddy. It really sucks seeing the ones you love uncomfortable.

My mother used to put me on a diet of tomato soup with crackers, ginger ale and pickles when I had similar symptoms. Always seemed to work. Easy on the ginger ale, though. Too much and it's back to the bathroom.

|4.13.07 @ 10:00AM|#

Don Imus ruined his own career, Lamar.

The public hates that racist shit - that's been made pretty clear. CBS and NBC don't want to be associated with it. Good for them.

What's the problem here? That racist bullshit will turn public opinion against you? Good!

|4.13.07 @ 10:09AM|#

Here are the companies that put the pressure on to fire Imus: American Express Co., Sprint Nextel Corp., Staples Inc., Procter & Gamble Co. and General Motors Corp.

They withdrew their advetisements to get themselves out of a toxic media storm. They did not pressure CBS to fire him.

I swear that everybody who alleges that it's a-okay for Don Imus to use the phrase "nappy-headed hos" unironically because rappers use the same sort of language has some sort of social relations Asberger's syndrome and they can't parse out the rules of the game.

VM|4.13.07 @ 10:21AM|#

Poor Mrs. Highnumber.

best gastroenterological wishes to the Highnumber household. In the spirit of pepto and keopectate!

hrumph.

destijl - "They withdrew their advetisements to get themselves out of a toxic media storm. They did not pressure CBS to fire him."

they pay for the show. no dollars from show, or they could pull their dollars from Westwood One or MSNNBC across the board. Money talks. (the market hath spoken!!!)

with that only tweak, I really like your final paragraph!

now let's get those different sides on the culture war and have a RUMBLE!!!!!!!

C Thomas Howell (who is usually readily available these days) will come dressed in his character from "Rumble Fish" to be guest referee.

We're still negotiating with Kevin Costner, in hopes that he'll reprise his (theater edition) role in "The Big Chill", but we're not sure if he will be playing Mr. Imus's future career or Al Sharpton/Rev Jesse Jackson's relevance.

woo hoo!

"The public hates that racist shit"

that's certainly true for this citizen.

|4.13.07 @ 10:33AM|#

How about a C.Thomas Howell (Rumblefish) vs. C. Thomas Howell (Soul Man) throwdown? It's metaracially terrific.

And talk about the nappy head on Soul Man! That thing's a brillo pad. I wouldn't want to be around any velcro if I had that head of hair.

My point on the "pressure" / withdrew thing was that they didn't say to CBS, "Fire Imus." They withdrew their bucks and said "We don't want to be associated with this guy." Other advertisers could have stepped in had they wished.

Also, I have to believe that some folks have have social Asberger's because the other apparent reason is not so pleasant to accuse someone of.

Stay gold, Pony Boy.

VM|4.13.07 @ 10:51AM|#

yoo da man!

agreed across the board!

Am I wrong for hoping for a C Thomas/Rae Dawn C/ James Earl threesome at the end of the movie?

Sadly, the other reason might be closer to the truth...

|4.13.07 @ 11:08AM|#

"They withdrew their adve[r]tisements to get themselves out of a toxic media storm. They did not pressure CBS to fire him."

If you buy that, you don't know how broadcast works. You lose your sponsors, you get canned. Therefore, by pulling their sponsorships, they effectively canned Imus. And I truly believe that the atmosphere was made toxic by hypocritical (and proven racist) Al Sharpton.

Joe: I guess you got me. Comparing the Rutgers and Tennessee basketball teams to the factions in Spike Lee's "School Daze" is totally racist. Have you even seen the clip? Or did you watch the version that fades in 2 seconds before he says "nappy headed hos"? Be honest, you didn't listen to the whole thing, did you? And if the public hates that racist shit, why did Imus continue to have good ratings over 30 years? Methinks you're projecting racism...just about everywhere.

If Don Imus says no black kids at his farm for cancer patients, that's racism. If he mimics the garbage blacks say all the time, it's harder to claim racism.

|4.13.07 @ 11:18AM|#

Actually, Lamar, I read the transcript of the entire bit. I think it's still up on the Atrios homepage.

Waah waah waah waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa....

The part where Imus calls the women ugly, and his his producer calls them "nappy headed hos," and Imus agrees and repeats the phrase - that's the part I have a problem with. And no, I don't care where he heard the phrase.

Nice try with the "you're a racist for noticing racism" shtick, though. Points for effort.

|4.13.07 @ 12:00PM|#

OK, so you admit that you didn't see the clip, but feel empowered to judge. Fine. No biggie.

But keep in mind, the women involved say it wasn't racism and so have some black commentators. Honestly Joe, it's quite obvious you don't care where Imus heard the words. You don't care if Imus is a real racist.

By the way, is your comment on "you're a racist for noting racism" directed at me? I'm pretty sure I've never made that argument. My position is that you're wrong about this being racism, and that even if you were correct, one shouldn't lightly ruin a man's career. Obviously, Al Sharpton is a racist hypocrite, but that's not because he notices racism. It's because he pushes racism regardless of what really happened. Sort of like you in this case.

But hey, why bother looking into the context (you said you didn't care)? Spike Lee, schmike lee. By the way, I really hate your puritan world where racists are hiding around every corner, major corporations decide what we watch, and racists like Al Sharpton control the debate.

The Wine Commonsewer|4.13.07 @ 12:39PM|#

David, you are incorrect, this isn't about hip hop it is about the staggering hypocrisy of CBS, whose president is fully okay with the rap section at CBS records but not okay with Imus and "the effect language like this has on our young people, particularly young women of color trying to make their way in this society."

Personally, I have never listened to Imus and I can't figure out why he attacked these girls. I don't know the context but I cannot see how in any context the comments could have been funny. So he's a jerk and maybe he needed firing and maybe not. Personally I don't care one way or the other except that it is interesting that the Vice President of Black America is pissed and apparently has a lot of sway and influence over corporate America.

ed|4.13.07 @ 3:06PM|#

It's all about America wanting to feel good about itself every now and then and doing it in a cynical, hypocritical, self-congratulatory sort of way. What Imus said was no worse than anything else he has said over a 30-year career. So why now?

|4.13.07 @ 3:12PM|#

"OK, so you admit that you didn't see the clip, but feel empowered to judge."

Yup, just read every work spoken in the transcript.

"But keep in mind, the women involved say it wasn't racism and so have some black commentators." I don't believe you about the first, and I don't care about the second. It sure looks like racism to me when you draw attention to someone's race to make the point about how ugly she is.

"By the way, is your comment on "you're a racist for noting racism" directed at me? I'm pretty sure I've never made that argument."

I'm pretty sure you wrote: "Methinks you're projecting racism" Maybe you misused the word "projecting?"

"one shouldn't lightly ruin a man's career" Imus has been pulling this shit for years. Surely you've noticed this - it's actually been mentioned in the media and on the intertubes once or twice. If this was a unique event, I'd be looking at it differently.

"But hey, why bother looking into the context (you said you didn't care)?" I said I didn't care where Imus heard the term. The context is very important, as the fact that he was using the racial slur "nappy headed ho" in order to insult the appearance of these women makes the use of the term even worse.

"...and racists like Al Sharpton control the debate" Al Sharpton was sought out by the media AFTER the story broke, and AFTER it became obvious that people were outraged about Imus's slurs against these women.

|4.13.07 @ 3:41PM|#

"But keep in mind, the women involved say it wasn't racism and so have some black commentators." I don't believe you about the first, and I don't care about the second. It sure looks like racism to me when you draw attention to someone's race to make the point about how ugly she is.

Just because you don't believe it, joe, does not make it so. I haven't bothered to look into this claim, and apparently neither have you. But it just seems idiotic to dismiss it with a mere, "I don't believe you". Also, how did Imus draw attention to their race? By calling them nappy headed hoes? I'd say the same about some white chics. Just me tho. It's all in how you wish to interpret things.

"...and racists like Al Sharpton control the debate" Al Sharpton was sought out by the media AFTER the story broke, and AFTER it became obvious that people were outraged about Imus's slurs against these women.

Really? So, after Imus made this remark, the people listening to it in their cars or on their bathroom radio said, "What a racist son of a bitch! How dare he!" They then made sure to bring it to the media's attention, who then made sure to bring it to Sharpton's attention? Sounds like a bunch of BS to me. I'm sure some had a chuckle; some dismissed it as they might dismiss so many other things radio personalities say. But there were a selective few media whores who expressed outrage - whether or not that outrage is sincere may never be known - and milked the outrage for all the ratings they possibly could.

Meanwhile, the general population goes on about their business. They don't arrive at work complaining about the racist prick on the radio. They don't cry their eyes out because they had their little feelings hurt. No, it all goes by without a squeak until the media hurls it upon them.

Just my 2 cents.

|4.13.07 @ 3:45PM|#

Joe,

(1) I totally misused the word "projecting." My bad.

(2) Reading a transcript, as any lawyer knows, is a way to intentionally avoid the context. Not that you "intentionally" avoided it, but I really think you miss something when you read a transcript.

(3) Imus has been a shock jock for years, and has been supporting progressive causes for years. But hey, you got him. No more white guys talking about Spike Lee movies.

(4) These girls simply don't have an argument about their appearance. They're butt-ugly skanks, no doubt about it. The context, which you claim to be aware of, yet you don't ever cite to it, is the context of the Spike Lee movie, which is a highly racial movie. It's almost as if any white person references or talks about race, it's racism.

(5) Al Sharpton led the charge. Just because somebody reported the story doesn't mean that Sharpton didn't make it a national firestorm.