Reason Magazine
- reason.com
- reason.tv
- reason.org
- Donate
- Site Search:
Reason on Facebook
Reason on Twitter
Reason on YouTube
Reason RSSGet Reason E-mail Updates!
Manage your Reason e-mail list subscriptionsadvertisements
Before He or She Cuts, Ask Your Surgeon: "Are you a Super Monkey Ball player?"
Top ten med school, check. Board certification, check. Video game champ, check. The Los Angeles Times reports:
Doctors who reported having played video games at least three hours a week sometime in their past worked 27% faster and made 37% fewer errors on the surgical tasks compared with those who had never picked up a game controller, according to the study in the Archives of Surgery...
The research looked at 33 surgeons attending a course on laparoscopic surgery and found that their game-playing skill was a better predictor of success on the surgical tests than years of medical practice or number of surgeries performed.
Of course, the moral panic over video games continues and Congressoid Sen. Sam Brownback (R-Kan.) wants to do it for the kids.
|2.26.07 @ 10:56AM|#
Well, the view from a fiber-optic catheter camera passing through your lower intestine does resemble the second level of Caverns of Perdition...
|2.26.07 @ 11:06AM|#
Eh. Correlation does not imply causality. Perhaps people with
good hand-eye coordination are drawn to video games - and to
becoming surgeons.
For example, I am not a video game player. I gave up after spending
an afternoon (and $2) playing donkey Kong and failing to get past
the second girder. Now if I tried to become a surgeon, I probably
would be simillarly clumsy inside the bodies of my vict - er
patients.
Dan T.|2.26.07 @ 11:08AM|#
Regardless of your positions on these issues, the idea that video game play can improve hand-eye coordination is a totally different issue from whether playing video games with violent themes leads to aggressive or anti-social behavior in some kids.
Antarctic Penguin|2.26.07 @ 11:12AM|#
"Well, the view from a fiber-optic catheter camera passing
through your lower intestine does resemble the second level of
Caverns of Perdition..."
I wonder what Lemiwinks the gerbil thinks about this report.
Dave B.|2.26.07 @ 11:17AM|#
It seems more likely to me that video games are such a good predictor of skill because they would tend to be correlated with youth. I didn't read the article because I didn't want to sign up for an LA Times account, but did they control for this?
Guy Montag|2.26.07 @ 11:21AM|#
Dan T.,
I KNEW a baseless attack on my only appearance in a computer game
would take prominance in this thread, but I never believed it would
come from you :)
The only bit that creeps me out on this story is the "27% faster"
part. I am not one seeking speed when human hands are digging
around my innards. I do like the accuracy part though.
|2.26.07 @ 11:22AM|#
Dave B.-
I didn't RTFA, but the portion quoted says that video game
experience was a better predictor of success than years of medical
practice. Years of medical practice is closely related to age.
Yeah, yeah, it isn't perfect, there's always the Doogie Howser who
went to med school early and the guy who changed careers later in
life and went to med school. These, however, are relatively rare
exceptions. Most people start med school within a few years of
finishing college.
And given how long ago the Atari 2600 came out, this study would
seem to encompass guys who played Pacman in their dorm rooms a
couple decades ago, as well as young guys who just finished
residency a few years ago and played Playstation on weekends.
|2.26.07 @ 11:26AM|#
Eh. Correlation does not imply causality. Perhaps people
with good hand-eye coordination are drawn to video games - and to
becoming surgeons.
Makes sense. But even if there's no causality, if there's
correlation, then playing video games could be a good
marker indicating good hand-eye coordination, and still
worth knowing about -- and even encouraging, as an information
signal.
|2.26.07 @ 11:26AM|#
Does this mean there's a market for my Sim-hospital video game idea, Grand Theft Autoimmune?
|2.26.07 @ 11:27AM|#
Dan T: I as explained here, teen violence reached the lowest levels ever recorded as sales of video games doubled.
|2.26.07 @ 11:29AM|#
DAR: And Wolfenstein Medical Center. (It's been a while since I played a videogame.)
Dan T.|2.26.07 @ 11:33AM|#
One more point to consider - note how easily Mr. Bailey is
willing to buy into the idea that video game play can have
beneficial effects, but he's very quick to slap the idea that video
games might have detrimental effects with the dismissive "moral
panic" label.
So video games are influential enough to effect people who play
them, but somehow only in a positive way?
|2.26.07 @ 11:36AM|#
Dan T: See also Dept of Justice juvenile violence trend figures
here.
D.A. Ridgely: I'll play. ;-)
Dan T.|2.26.07 @ 11:39AM|#
Dan T: I as explained here, teen violence reached the lowest
levels ever recorded as sales of video games doubled.
I actually remember that article when first published here and
found it fairly persuasive. I'd much rather have kids who are
attracted to violent acts performing them in the virtual world
instead of the real world.
But I think the jury is still out on the long-term effects of game
play. Also, I harbor these strange ideas that video games are in
actuality training tools for future soldiers - wasn't it found that
the Army had commissioned a game or something recently?
|2.26.07 @ 11:42AM|#
Stevo, me too. But I figured Zork: The Intern of Frobozz General Hospital ("You are in a maze of twisting, antiseptic smelling corridors, all alike.") might be a bit passé for the younger crowd around here.
Dan T.|2.26.07 @ 11:47AM|#
Dan T: With regard to "moral panics," I just call 'em as I
see 'em.
Fair enough, but such dismissive terms will make people think
you're preaching to the converted.
severin|2.26.07 @ 11:48AM|#
Guy says: "The only bit that creeps me out on this story is the
"27% faster" part. I am not one seeking speed when human hands are
digging around my innards."
I do think speed is important when you are talking about a surgeon.
The faster it can be done the less risk of secondary complications,
like excessive bleeding, infection, tolerance to the anesthesia,
etc. Also it may be the difference between being able to treat 25
people a day or 20.
|2.26.07 @ 11:50AM|#
"But I think the jury is still out on the long-term effects
of game play."
As is the long-term effects of cowboys & indians. What your
quote says is that there is no evidence suggesting that video games
cause criminal violence. We agree on that.
Also, there's a big difference between a video game's ability to
sharpen skills and a video games alleged ability to warp the
mind.
ed|2.26.07 @ 11:52AM|#
I'd rather my surgeon played the piano.
This would indicate good manual dexterity and not being a
dork.
|2.26.07 @ 11:56AM|#
This would indicate good manual dexterity and not being a
dork.
Unless you're Marvin Hamlisch.
|2.26.07 @ 11:57AM|#
I don't find it terribly difficult to believe that people who
show a proclivity toward one particular manual activity may also
have greater skill in another task involving hand-eye coordination.
I'm not by any means convinced that video games actually teach
those skills, they may just be an indicator of people who possess
such skills.
Because I'm skeptical of the notion that video games can teach you
manual skills, I'm also skeptical that video games can inculcate
certain attitudes.
Dan T.|2.26.07 @ 11:58AM|#
As is the long-term effects of cowboys & indians. What
your quote says is that there is no evidence suggesting that video
games cause criminal violence. We agree on that.
I think the closest I've seen is that studies have shown that
playing violent video games often leads to short-term increases in
aggressive behavior among players. This may not translate to
criminal violence but that doesn't mean it's not an undesirable
consequence.
I guess like most things, moderation is the key with video games -
even at age 33 I know guys who seem to be addicted to gaming to the
point that it harms other areas of their lives.
|2.26.07 @ 11:59AM|#
BTW, for any fan of House the findings of the research are obvious. There's a guy who's crippled, writhing in pain and popping Valiums all day, and when he's not playing in his office with his GameBoy or insulting people, he's saving some patient's life by carving into him and he's not even a surgeon! Need I say more?
|2.26.07 @ 12:16PM|#
DanT (who is a smorgasbord of annoyance this morning):
"Regardless of your positions on these issues, the idea that video
game play can improve hand-eye coordination is a totally different
issue from whether playing video games with violent themes leads to
aggressive or anti-social behavior in some kids."
You're right. The former idea has some pretty compelling evidence
in support of it. The latter does not, and is a product of
ignorance, fear, and the ever-present notion that the world is in a
state of moral free-fall.
"So video games are influential enough to effect people who play
them, but somehow only in a positive way?"
No-one has ever contended that games do not have influence. But
there's a difference between manual physical skills and moral
guidance. Equating the two is a pretty weak argument.
"But I think the jury is still out on the long-term effects of game
play."
How long is 'long-term'? We've got people running around now who've
been playing computer games of one sort or another for 30+ years.
I've been playing games since 1980 or so.
Then again, I've been playing roleplaying games since I was 8 years
old. It's a wonder I don't just snap and kill a whole schoolbus
full of nuns. And orphans. And orphan nuns.
"Also, I harbor these strange ideas that video games are in
actuality training tools for future soldiers - wasn't it found that
the Army had commissioned a game or something recently?"
'Found'? Like they did it in secret? This makes me believe you
don't play games, or know anything about the industry. In which
case you should probably refrain from talking about it until you go
acquire some basic knowledge.
'America's Army' is a first person shooter commissioned by the Army
as a recruiting tool. It's... not very good.
'Full Spectrum Warrior' is a training tool comissioned by the Army
to teach small-unit urban tactics. It's very, very good.
"I guess like most things, moderation is the key with video games -
even at age 33 I know guys who seem to be addicted to gaming to the
point that it harms other areas of their lives."
I didn't have anything to say to this except maybe :rolleyes:, but
then I thought about it. 'Even at age 33.' Your apparent surprise
that you know people (presumably also in their 30s) who play games,
even to excess, is the core of the issue I have with would-be
nannies fucking around with my industry.
See, games are for *everyone*. It's been a very long time since the
industry made games exclusively for children, or even mostly for
children. The largest market for video games? It's the 18 to 27
demographic. And even at age 32, I feel pretty confident that I'm
still somewhere near that target market.
The 'for the children' attitude is the same poison that the comics
industry choked down just before it entered two decades of creative
stagnation.
|2.26.07 @ 12:24PM|#
Also, I harbor these strange ideas that video games are in
actuality training tools for future soldiers - wasn't it found that
the Army had commissioned a game or something recently?
This is an old sci-fi staple. Anyway, simulated war is fun. The
first game that came with my Atari 2600 ca. 1980 was Combat. A few
years ago the Army took notice and came out with America's Army. I
played it a bit. It was a fairly feeble first person shooter with
some light but dry infantry training type activities. I don't
really care that much if the Army is trying to train kids to be
soldiers in this way. Their attempts will surely be ham-fisted,
while Actavision et al. will draw the crowds with the same core
theme. Boys and young men train for combat by playing at it. It's
our nature Dan; you know this. The new twist in all this is the
Wii. More active, sports oriented, creative. And add my voice to
the "vidya games make the kids violent". The whole notion is DOA.
Video games have become more pervasive and realistic while violent
crime by their players has become less common.
|2.26.07 @ 12:24PM|#
Also, I harbor these strange ideas that video games are in
actuality training tools for future soldiers - wasn't it found that
the Army had commissioned a game or something recently?
You're thinking of the underappreciated LL Cool J film Toys.
chucklehead|2.26.07 @ 12:32PM|#
Dan T: One more point to consider - note how easily Mr.
Bailey is willing to buy into the idea that video game play can
have beneficial effects, but he's very quick to slap the idea that
video games might have detrimental effects with the dismissive
"moral panic" label.
Where, exactly, does Mr. Bailey claim that he buys into the idea
that video games have beneficial effects?
Oh yeah, he doesn't. He just posted a snippet of a story and a few
links.
|2.26.07 @ 12:41PM|#
I think age matters here. There were days when video games were
not so much about hand eye coordination.
"If you cut there, you will be eaten by a grue."
Larry A|2.26.07 @ 12:46PM|#
Regardless of your positions on these issues, the idea that
video game play can improve hand-eye coordination is a totally
different issue from whether playing video games with violent
themes leads to aggressive or anti-social behavior in some
kids.
I don't want to register for the whole article either. But read the
clip.
The research looked at 33 surgeons attending a course on laparoscopic surgery and found that their game-playing skill was a better predictor of success...
Nowhere does that say the games improved their
surgical skills, just that they predicted the
level of those skills.
Dan T. What percent of professional videogame players have been
arrested for violent crimes? How many times have you heard about
two or more men in a barfight over a Grand Theft Auto game? How
many times has a videogame tournament led to city-wide drunken
revelry approaching the riot level?
Seems like Congress should be a lot more worried about pro sports
than videogames. But the pro sports image is that it teaches
loyalty, personal effort, teamwork and various other virtues, so
instead of banning football, basketball, et al, we make them a
major part of our high school curriculum, and run college sports
almost at the professional level.
Isn't it strange that almost all of our teenage
multiple-murder/suicides take place in schools, precisely where all
the usual suspects (videogames, guns, gangs, drugs, sex,
pornography, ad nauseum) are banned?
even at age 33 I know guys who seem to be addicted to gaming to
the point that it harms other areas of their lives.
And I know people even at age 33 that are addicted to food. It
doesn't mean that food has no benefits.
The largest market for video games? It's the 18 to 27
demographic. And even at age 32, I feel pretty confident that I'm
still somewhere near that target market.
I turn 60 in a couple of days, and my wife claims I'm still part of
it.
VM|2.26.07 @ 1:00PM|#
Now, now Highnumber. You know the first question at Lion Tamer,
Laparoscopic Surgery school is not "do you have your own
hat..."
(Happy Birthday, LarryA)
Dan T.|2.26.07 @ 1:37PM|#
Gotta love H&R - you guys protest way too much considering
the worst I've done is say video games should be played in
moderation.
Relax, folks, I'm not calling for mandatory hangings of all video
game producers and players.
If anything, it might be best if young men are sedating themselves
with games instead of going out causing trouble.
|2.26.07 @ 1:48PM|#
Maybe we should add some sex education to our video games and see if there is an improvement in the porn industry.
|2.26.07 @ 2:05PM|#
Dan T.,
No, the worst you've done is to suggest that the repeatedly
debunked link between video games and violence is still a viable
point of contention. You did that in your first post.
I don't know the motivations of other posters are. But my
motivations are simple: I work in this industry. And it chaps my
ass to have to read, day after day, ill-informed pundits offering
their 'perspectives' on my industry.
If you don't play games, you probably don't have enough information
to contribute to any discussion of the value of games. It's akin to
senators who believe the internet is made of PVC pipe offering
their two cents. Well, except that those assholes can legislate;
but enough of the 'games = violence' crap in the public meme-space,
and I'll be looking and stupid fucking legislation, too.
|2.26.07 @ 2:19PM|#
Maybe we should add some sex education to our video games
and see if there is an improvement in the porn industry.
Wasn't that the whole point of Leisure Suit Larry?
Dan T.|2.26.07 @ 2:20PM|#
http://www.apa.org/science/psa/sb-anderson.html
Myth 1. Violent video game research has yielded very mixed
results.
Facts: Some studies have yielded nonsignificant video game effects,
just as some smoking studies failed to find a significant link to
lung cancer. But when one combines all relevant empirical studies
using meta-analytic techniques, five separate effects emerge with
considerable consistency. Violent video games are significantly
associated with: increased aggressive behavior, thoughts, and
affect; increased physiological arousal; and decreased prosocial
(helping) behavior. Average effect sizes for experimental studies
(which help establish causality) and correlational studies (which
allow examination of serious violent behavior) appear comparable
(Anderson & Bushman, 2001).
|2.26.07 @ 2:56PM|#
Six years ago somebody found a correlation in some studies
between violent video games and typical teenage male
behavior?
Color me shocked.
Larry A|2.26.07 @ 3:22PM|#
Violent video games are significantly associated with:
increased aggressive behavior, thoughts, and affect; increased
physiological arousal; and decreased prosocial (helping)
behavior.
I wonder which games they were testing? GTA? EverQuest? How can the
multiplayer games which depend on forming groups to pool skills and
resources decrease helping behavior?
Wasn't that the whole point of Leisure Suit Larry?
Not really. LLL and its clones were written by computer
gaming nerds who presumed that the goal of the typical player was
playing the game, not getting to the good stuff. They thought
making it harder to score was a feature, instead of a problem. It's
a nerd thing.
Dan T.|2.26.07 @ 3:26PM|#
Six years ago somebody found a correlation in some studies
between violent video games and typical teenage male
behavior?
Color me shocked.
Right, I'm sure the professionals who conducted the numerous
studies didn't consider using a control group or anything like
that.
mediageek|2.26.07 @ 4:08PM|#
"Also, I harbor these strange ideas that video games are in
actuality training tools for future soldiers - wasn't it found that
the Army had commissioned a game or something recently?"
After playing DOOM during my Jr. High and High School years, I
attended a USPSA pistol match and scored with the Grand
Masters.
Site comments/questions:
Media Inquiries and Reprint Permissions:
(310) 367-6109
Editorial & Production Offices:
3415 S. Sepulveda Blvd.
Suite 400
Los Angeles, CA 90034
(310) 391-2245