Ooh, Look at That One. He Looks Delicious.

Jacob Sullum | November 2, 2006

These horse lovers are really getting annoying. I should clarify: not the horse lovers in  France, Belgium, Germany, and Japan (among other places) who like a nice equine steak now and then—the horse lovers who are trying to stop them from enjoying this un-American delicacy. I should clarify that too: The meat is American, but the enjoyment of it is not. Hence the American Horse Slaughter Prevention Act, which the House passed by a vote of 263 to 146 in September. Yesterday the National Horse Protection Coalition used a full-page ad in The New York Times to complain that the Senate, due to the machinations of the nefarious Farm Animal Welfare Coalition, has not taken up the measure yet.

It seems the latter coalition's pork, milk, and beef producers are worried about the precedent set by an utterly arbitrary national ban on the slaughter of a particular animal. Opponents of the ban are worried that "these crazy animal rights groups will come after their livestock next," according to a Washington Times editorial quoted in the ad. "Talk about paranoia!" say the (American) horse lovers. "The fact is, we don't know of a single vegetarian on our board but can mention a few enlightened hunters and anglers who are able to make the distinction between a horse and a cow."

Perhaps they can enlighten me as well: What precisely is the morally and legally relevant distinction between a horse and a cow? Is it all about aesthetics? Lambs are awfully cute. Is the issue intelligence? Pigs are pretty smart. The absence of vegetarians from the board of the National Horse Protection Coalition will not prevent other people from citing the horse slaughter ban while arguing that Congress should protect their favorite animals.

The horse lovers simultaneously condemn opponents of the ban as "special interests" (unlike the people obsessed with preventing others from eating their sacred animal) and insist that "no U.S. interests are involved" (because it's only those barbaric foreigners who eat horsemeat). Instead of receiving overwhelming support in Congress, the folks who venerate horses should get exactly the same reaction as Hindus demanding a ban on cow slaughter or Jews insisting that pork should be forbidden throughout the land.

Comments

|11.2.06 @ 1:20PM|#

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the ban apply only to the slaughter of wild horses living on the government's land?

|11.2.06 @ 1:28PM|#

I've never tried horse but alway imagined it would taste more like venison than beef. Does anyone know?

|11.2.06 @ 1:29PM|#

I'm all for freedom of choice when it comes to one man's meat. But the real question is: if it is OK to eat horses, is it then also OK to eat dogs and cats? If not, what is the morally and legally relevant distinction between dogs, cats and horses?

|11.2.06 @ 1:30PM|#

"The fact is, we don't know of a single vegetarian on our board but can mention a few enlightened hunters and anglers who are able to make the distinction between a horse and a cow."

Ye gods! Does this mean that people are hunting and fishing for cows?

|11.2.06 @ 1:31PM|#

ive eaten horse in that unsophisticated 3rd world hellhole they call london. it's ok, just a little tougher than cow. The fact that it's so uncommon would tell me that a ban is unnecessary, but what do i know?

|11.2.06 @ 1:31PM|#

I am definitely a horse person and get as weepy as any kid at the sad parts of "Black Beauty" & similar horse movies. However, this ban is driven by sentimentality, not logic. I would never eat horse meat myself, but I don't see horses as sacred beings. [I should say, never knowingly eat it. I've had my suspicions in a few restaurants.]

joe

The ban is general. The slaughter of wild horses for meat was banned years ago. [In the eighties, I think.] The 'horse protection' groups have been pushing for a full ban on slaughter for meat for a long time.

Sam Franklin|11.2.06 @ 1:32PM|#

Perhaps they can enlighten me as well: What precisely is the morally and legally relevant distinction between a horse and a cow? Is it all about aesthetics? Lambs are awfully cute. Is the issue intelligence? Pigs are pretty smart.

this is a holistic, totality of the circumstances inquiry. Similar to many other enquiries, like what is a fair tax structure, or what is a just war or what is the line between indentured servitude (good) and slavery (bad) or what is fair use copying.

The things you mentioned are factors. I would also add the traditional relationship that the species has had with mankind, over the millenia, is another important factor that should be considered. On a similar note, the likely effect that consumption will have on the species as a whole (or certain valuable subsets of the species) should also be a consideration, if you are interested in giving some of the more intelligent species of animals the consideration they richly deserve from an ethics standpoint.

|11.2.06 @ 1:33PM|#

I for one applaud our brave and foresighted legislators on their principled stand to deny the French cheval bourguignon.

|11.2.06 @ 1:33PM|#

People don't eat horses in this country for the same reason they don't eat cats and dogs. They're pets. And pets are like family. You wouldn't eat someone in your family, would you?

If you don't believe me, try carrying a tray of kitty-kebabs into a cat show and see the reception you get.

Mike Laursen|11.2.06 @ 1:36PM|#

Does Chicago's ban on foie gras cover only duck and geese? If someone were to force feed a pigeon would that be banned, too?

thoreau|11.2.06 @ 1:38PM|#

I'm OK with eating animals, but it's cruel and unusual to feed them anything that contains HFCS.

The great part is that with the filter I can toss out these things and get Corn Syrup Boy all riled up, and never have to read what he says!

|11.2.06 @ 1:40PM|#

There might not be much of a difference between a horse and a cow as far as rendered meat goes. One difference I can think of between living cows and horses is that pretty much all cows are owned by someone, whereas wild horses that roam on public lands are owned by noone.

Efforts are made to manage wild horse herds by domesticating the promising, and slaughtering the least viable. I've had a couple of bones broken myself by a cute little "reclaimed" BLM mustang - it's hard to get the "wild" out of a wild horse!

Trying to stop herd culling may end up causing more damage than if culling were allowed to proceed - this has been demonstrated with other prey animals in the past. Control of their natural predators, like mountain lions or bears, also complicates the picture.

People get emotional about animals viewed as pets, even if the particular animals in question are not pets. One unintended consequence that I never see mentioned in this debate is the theft of true pet animals, once a market has been established for them. Horse theft is surprisingly easy, alarmingly widespread, and heartbreaking if you admit the possibility that your pet companion ended up being sold for slaughter. Cattle theft happens as well, of course, but cattle are not generally beloved pets.

|11.2.06 @ 1:40PM|#

People don't eat horses in this country for the same reason they don't eat cats and dogs. They're pets. And pets are like family. You wouldn't eat someone in your family, would you?

Doesn't this "pet=family" logic this mean that flushing a pet goldfish down the toilet is like flushing your mom down the toilet?

Dave|11.2.06 @ 1:45PM|#

Kalifornia's ban on horse slaughter for human OR animal consumption was pressed on the breeders by ignorant, starry-eyed PETA members.

Used to be, you could always get about $800-$1000 for the old nag's carcass, which set a base price on the animals, propped the price for an backyard riding horse of no particular merit, and allowed for a lower price to be offered in exchange for a 'good home'.

Predictably, and as predicted, turning a $1000 positive value into a $1000 negative value (the cost of disposal) has led to less honest dealing, selling an animal with bad habits rather than paying the disposal fee, and other less than beneficial situations for breeders, riders and consumers alike.

And I don't even want to start with the concept of making it a felony to turn my own animal into a nice barbeque.

It isn't the real horse lovers that are behind this. It another fascist movement trying to control what you do with your own property. The people who owned horses in Cali were against that law, but the PETA people won. In this case, the 'paranoids' have good reason, and real enemies out to get them.

Sandy|11.2.06 @ 1:46PM|#

I just wanted to compliment Jacob on the nice South Park reference.

Sandy|11.2.06 @ 1:48PM|#

Oh, and a plausible distinction for cats and dogs: you shouldn't eat predators. The risks of transmission of certain disease could go up. You definitely shouldn't eat anything very closely related to you (i.e., a primate) because the chances of catching a disease go waaaay up.

But I'm prepared to be swayed on the cat and dog thing. Certainly it hasn't prevented the Chinese and Koreans from reproducing.

|11.2.06 @ 1:48PM|#

My guess is that the sentimentality for horses comes from horses the fact that they have not been beasts of burden for some time in this country. I doubt the sentimentality would be so strong if people had memories of eating horse like it was recycling a tractor that had conked out.

What would be wrong with eating cats and dogs anyways?

Sam Franklin|11.2.06 @ 1:50PM|#

O young T. You never seem to rile me. I see too much positive potential for learning in you. I save my venom for editors who think dogeating is A-OK. They, I fear, will never learn.

|11.2.06 @ 1:53PM|#

Dave,
You have the most well-reasoned post here. Stop with the "fascism" crap already.

thoreau|11.2.06 @ 1:53PM|#

Oh, and a plausible distinction for cats and dogs: you shouldn't eat predators. The risks of transmission of certain disease could go up.

Hmm, I never thought of that. Do you think this warning applies to seafood as well? I like shark.

D.A. Ridgely|11.2.06 @ 1:55PM|#

thoreau, so the real rule is "Don't Feed The Trolls At Home"?

curious, I've had horse meat in Italy and would say it tastes more like beef.

Mike Laursen|11.2.06 @ 1:57PM|#

Kalifornia's ban on horse slaughter for human OR animal consumption was pressed on the breeders by ignorant, starry-eyed PETA members.

And, more prominently, Robert Redford, if I recall correctly.

Jeff P.|11.2.06 @ 1:59PM|#

Does anyone know what they do with horse penises?

|11.2.06 @ 2:01PM|#

I don't know Jeff P., what do they do with horse penises?

|11.2.06 @ 2:03PM|#

Damn, you're right, Dave, I was not even thinking about our particular ban in California. Yeah, it has led to horse-dumping, abusive neglect, increased doping to lure buyers, etc. etc. This was all predicted ahead of the ban. This isn't rocket science, for god's sake.

The horse market - which has been around since, what, the domestication of horses, is generally well-understood by the 21st century. Even the theft of valued animals to sell for slaughter is not a new problem, even if it's a difficult one. Even *doping* has been around for a thousand years, probably. Trying to incorporate modern PETA-style sensibilities is awkward, to say the least.

thoreau|11.2.06 @ 2:03PM|#

Good point, DAR. The filter made me reckless.

I must learn to respect the filter, rather than abuse it.

|11.2.06 @ 2:05PM|#

This steak still has marks where the jockey was hitting it.

|11.2.06 @ 2:08PM|#

Why would Jews want pork banned? We regard pigs as unclean, not sacred. If you want to eat trafe, go ahead.

Dave|11.2.06 @ 2:08PM|#

Lamar - I calls 'em as I sees 'em. Sorry I hit your hot button.

|11.2.06 @ 2:10PM|#

It's a stupid animal!. Dumber than a pig.

P.S. Horse meat is really not that tasty. So much for French culinary arts.

|11.2.06 @ 2:14PM|#

--Doesn't this "pet=family" logic this mean that flushing a pet goldfish down the toilet is like flushing your mom down the toilet?

Good point. Maybe there's a flushability correlation. The less flushable the pet, the more family-like it is. So, fish and newts go down the loo, but cats, dogs and larger mammals get a backyard burial. Mice and small gerbils might be on the cusp.

Dave|11.2.06 @ 2:14PM|#

Horse theft for the purpose of slaughter became a minor problem when the slaughter was legal. Most knackers (slaughterers) would look inside the lips and ears and under the tail for tattoos. Especially in the ears, you can't see the tattoo without removing the hair. If the seller didn't tell the knacker about the tattoo, he presumed the animal was stolen, and had a (legally imposed) duty to investigate further.

People's pets were just not being stolen in any significant numbers. This was a straw man argument used by the people pushing the ban.

|11.2.06 @ 2:14PM|#

On the other hand, dog is delicious.

|11.2.06 @ 2:30PM|#

Certainly, horse theft for slaughter is a minor problem, but I it's pretty traumatic if it was *your* horse. Were/are people whose horses had disappeared promoting the ban? I personally don't know any horse owners who oppose horse slaughter. Rather the opposite, in fact.

In my completely anecdotal experience, horse owners are too damn busy to band together to push for things that matter to them. Trails, slaughter, zoning, requiring floaters to get licensed, etc. etc. Activists are simply people with time on their hands. And you know the saying about the devil, and idle hands!

|11.2.06 @ 2:30PM|#

What about roadkill?

Dave|11.2.06 @ 2:43PM|#

Bee - it is traumatic if it is your horse. But how many people do you know that have had a horse stolen? As a breeder, I always encouraged the casual owner to have their animal tattooed. Doesn't prevent the theft, but does cut down on the profitability, make that thief more likely to get caught, and adds an air of danger and uncertainty to the calculating thief's situation. Like concealed carry in other situations, the main benefit is that the thief never knows which one...

But about banding together for just those issues, check out ETI (Equestrian Trails). They're all over southern Cal, and spreading. Not real effective, but better than nothing.

Corral 118 has some links (I'm an ex-member, moved away).

|11.2.06 @ 2:43PM|#

The inanity of this congress continues to amaze me.

Thomas Paine\'s Goiter|11.2.06 @ 2:43PM|#

T - how do you filter?

Thomas Paine\'s Goiter|11.2.06 @ 2:46PM|#

Hmm, I never thought of that. Do you think this warning applies to seafood as well? I like shark.

I know for a fact that the more of a predator the fish is, the more tumors and such I had to cut out of the filets prior to preparing them.

Dave|11.2.06 @ 2:54PM|#

Bee - so far as I recall, the ban promoter did not have ANY actual victims of theft supporting their cause.

They may not have bothered looking, or perhaps there were no horse owners who had an animal stolen and would support them, or my memory may be off.

|11.2.06 @ 2:55PM|#

Why would Jews want pork banned? We regard pigs as unclean, not sacred. If you want to eat trafe,go ahead.

Cartoon shows two pigs sitting on sofa, across the desk from a realtor. One pig is saying, "I think we'd feel more comfortable in a Jewish neighborhood."

|11.2.06 @ 4:38PM|#

So when and how did it become illegal for Americans to eat horse? And is it illegal for us to eat dogs and cats?

|11.2.06 @ 5:22PM|#

I know for a fact that the more of a predator the fish is, the more tumors and such I had to cut out of the filets prior to preparing them.

Aren't most of the fish we eat predators?

|11.2.06 @ 6:01PM|#

Does anyone know what they do with horse penises?

Uh, they put them into girl horses in order to make horse babies.

You must be a city boy not to know this.

|11.2.06 @ 6:10PM|#

I think the concern about not eating predators is specifically about not eating mammalian predators, because these are more closely related to us and perhaps more likely to carry diseases that humans can catch.

I hadn't heard that this was a concern with regard to diseases before. My guess is that mammalian predators are more likely to not only carry mammalian diseases but also catch and kill other mammals with such diseases.

When you're toward the top of the food chain, you are more likely to have contaminants concentrated in your body than the animals lower down. (Maybe this explains the tumors in predatory fish that TP's Goiter mentioned.) Mammalian predators are also more likely to be closer to the top of the food chain than non-mammal predators.

Disease aside, I have heard that you should avoid eating the livers of mammalian predators [specifically because you can get vitamin A poisoning that way. This happened to some explorers who got desperate and ate some of their sled dogs.

|11.2.06 @ 7:03PM|#

I'm just glad to know that once the Democrats take over, nobody will be telling us what we can and can't put into our bodies.

wingnutx|11.2.06 @ 10:22PM|#

Pigs have similar physiologies to humans, and carry many of the same parasites. They are compatible enough that we transplant heart valves from pig into humans.

Just don't eat it rare.

|11.2.06 @ 11:38PM|#

When you're toward the top of the food chain, you are more likely to have contaminants concentrated in your body than the animals lower down.

This is certainly true of ciguatura poisoning.

In tropical waters from the Florida Keys and the Carribean to Australia people are warned to be careful about eating large predatory fish.

The toxin is first introduced by small fish eating a certain algae from coral reefs. It then moves up the food chain and gets more and more concentrated as it goes. Or at least that's the way the story goes.

|11.2.06 @ 11:49PM|#

wingnutx:Just don't eat it rare.

Actually trichinosis has supposedly been completely eliminated in domestic US pigs.

As a result the recommended internal cooking temperature for pork has been substantially reduced. Hence, it is now generally served much rarer than it once was.

My brother acquired a taste for horsemeat when he was living in Italy some years back. He said it was by far the tastiest meat he had ever had and promised to get some during one of my visits. Alas, it was not to be. We never did get together on it. Since I always enjoy new culinary experiences I was disappointed.

|11.3.06 @ 2:52AM|#

Ban horse slavery now!

|11.3.06 @ 11:20AM|#

Hmm, I never thought of that. Do you think this warning applies to seafood as well? I like shark.

The FedGov says not to eat too much large predatory ocean fish (swordfish, shark, etc) because they have higher concentrations of mercury and PCB's in their muscles. Even then, you can probably enjoy one shark meal a month without any problem (unless you're pregnant, which I highly doubt).

I ate horse meat a couple of decades ago in Quebec. If I hadn't been told it was horse meat, I would have thought it was very lean hamburger.

|11.3.06 @ 11:27AM|#

Ok, you are all way off base on this issue. Horses shouldn't be slaughtered for many reasons. First, the method by which the slaughterhouses use (the captive bolt gun) is not considered to be humane. Horses are a "flight animal" meaning that they can smell and sense fear and pain and will run from it. While the horse is forcefully being loaded into a bloody slippery chute, a uncaring employee has to try and shoot this captive bolt into the exact spot on the horse's head to render it unconscious. Many times the horse is still conscious while they hoist it up by its rear legs and slit its throat to bleed to death. Watch the video at: http://www.khou.com/topstories/stories/khou060831_cd_horses10.551a315c.html - graphic
Horses are companion animals like dogs and cats. This video will explain alot more. Shipping to slaughter is another issue. What about the trailer headed to slaughter carrying 41 horses that flipped over?? 41 horses on a trailer, does that sound like a comfortable ride to you?? Educate yourself on a topic before stating your opinion. There are numerous websites available with justifyable reasons why horse slaughter should be banned. Take the time to look at them. It all comes down to people wanting a place to dump the animals that they no longer want to commit their time and money to any more. Yet they continue to backyard breed. Horses are a very sensitive, loyal, and loving creature. They are not livestock, they are life long friends.

|11.3.06 @ 11:36AM|#

This is sick. It's not humorus at all, and if you think it is, I hope you get reincarnated time after time as a horse in a feedlot that doesn't get rescued and ends up in the slaughterhouse. What's wrong w/you sick people?

|11.3.06 @ 12:09PM|#

Well, here are a few facts about all meat. For those of you who still eat any meat-

It sends your body into KETOSIS, a state that occurs when you are seriously ill. It causes cancer, heart disease, liver failure, kidney failure and a host of other illnesses. You are killing yourselves because of your gluttony. What's next? Are we going to start BBQing our neighbors pets because we want some meat? More and more people are waking up to the dangers of eating this meat that is shot up with steroids, growth hormones and antibiotics. We as humans do not have the teeth nor the digestive systems to handle eating meat. It sits in your colon for sometimes years. It causes diverticulitis, which are little pimples of rotting meat that protrude out of your intestines. We have grinding teeth, not ripping, shredding teeth. You are eating animals, that have a face and a brain. That have the ability to love and be loyal. Drug users think that what they are doing is okay, yet we condem them and even send them to prison for what they do. Don't get me wrong, I am not condoning what they do, but why is it alright to do what you meat eaters do then. We send cannabilistic serial killers to jail, How are you any different? If it has a brain and can think leave it alone. Let it live. If you would please pull your heads out of the sand and take the time to find out what really happens in all slaughter houses (Feces being ground into the meat, rat hairs, cockroaches etc.) I really think you would never touch another piece of meat ever.

|11.3.06 @ 12:12PM|#

I would like to offer the following to attempt to clarfiy a few points on the above article and the comments made:


We need to stop the barbaric practice of sending our horses, who carry our police, our children and our soldiers into battle, to slaughter.


Some will advocate that slaughter is humane - is it humane to skin and dismember an animal that is still alive and in some cases, still conscious? In addition, what people don't know is that they are slaughtering foals, pregnant mares and young sound horses so that Europeans and Asians can feast on our American horses. Who would want to eat an old, sick horse? We don't treat our dogs and cats in this way, why would we condemn our horses to this horrific death?


There are three foreign-owned horse slaughter plants in the United States, two in Texas and one in Illinois and they pay very little to nothing in taxes every year.


Please read the statement on horse slaughter by Peggy Larson, who worked for the USDA and is a veterinarian: http://www.sharkonline.org/?P=0000000530


I also think that we should all consider where the statements of "pro-slaughter" are coming from, i.e., perhaps there are donations coming from the ranchers who would prefer to sell their horses to slaughter, after they have worked for them and can no longer, instead of having to pay for humane euthanisia?


In addition, two Kentucky Derby winners have been slaughtered:


Exceller - Only horse to beat two Triple Crown winners, Seattle Slew and Affirmed. Earned $1,654,003 and died in a slaughterhouse on Apr. 7th, 1997 two years before being inducted into the National Museum of Racing Hall of Fame.


Ferdinand - 1986 Kentucky Derby winner and 1987 Horse of the Year. Earned $3,777,978 retiring as the then 5th leading money winner of all time. Slaughtered in Sept. 2002 to avoid the cost of supporting him after his retirement.


Senator Burns, in a very under-handed way added an amendment to a large bill that took away the protection of our wild horses and burros. They too, are now being sent to slaughter. We, American citizens, pay for that land that they graze on, but the Senator has made certain that the ranchers in his state of Montana share in the taxpayers land!


Is this what we want to happen to our horses? To be served as a delicacy, after working for us or winning races for us? If not, please call your Senators and ask them to co-sponsor and support without amendments, S. 1915! It is important to end this atrocity.


In closing, I'd like to quote Republican Representative John Sweeney (NY), who sponsored HR 503: "It's one of the most inhumane, brutal and shady practices going on in the United States today."


For more information go to: www.saplonline.org/horses.htm


Marjorie

|11.3.06 @ 12:32PM|#

Horse Slaughter Horror
Video Documentation

http://www.sharkonline.org/?P=0000000528

Doomed horses are lined up for cruel termination. The last hours of these intelligent animals are filled with dread as they experience the noise, smell and sight of death.

#1 This horse is hit in the shoulder by the mis-aimed captive bolt gun, causing even more pain and trauma.

#2 Wounded but still conscious after the mis-aimed shot, the suffering victim is hit again and again by the merciless captive bolt gun.

#1 A panicked victim struggles to gain footing on the slippery blood-soaked floor of the kill chute.

#2 Finally steady, the horse is shot by her killer, but she remains alive and conscious.

#3 Still struggling, she is shot a third time by her killer.

#1 Clearly aware of the peril she faces, this horse repeatedly attempts to avoid the captive bolt gun.

#2 The horror continues as the doomed horse continues to evade death. She looks toward her killer with eyes wide with terror. If she is looking for mercy, there is none to be found in this death house.

#3 Finally, her killer succeeds in blasting her skull, but even after three shots she is still moving.

A still moving victim is ejected from the kill chute.

The latest victim is hoisted, to be cut up in view of still-living victims.

The victim on the left side of the screen is having its face cut apart, while the victim on the right is being bled. This occurs in view of other horses awaiting the merciless captive bolt.

While the dismantling of these once-beautiful creatures goes on, the camera pans to the kill chute just a few feet away. There a victim is hit four times with the captive bolt gun.

The above video clips were generously supplied to SHARK by the Humane Farming Association.

Our thanks to Judy Marteniuk, DVM, who was a co-producer of the film, for permission to use these clips. Dr. Marteniuk is a faculty member at Michigan State University's College of Veterinary Medicine, where she specializes in Equine Medicine in the Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences.

|11.3.06 @ 12:33PM|#

Jeanete

Feces, rat hairs, cockroaches etc. are ground into flour, cereal and just about every other food too. It's pretty much unavoidable. It's also a good reason why we should probably irradiate more of our food supply.

Sorry to you horse lovers but your sentimentality does not entitle you to impose your opinions on others with the weight of law.

|11.3.06 @ 12:49PM|#

To: where did all the horse lovers come from ?a.k.a. not brave enough to leave your name.

This is America. And when there are injustices, yes we do have the right to impose on others with the weight of the law. That is what our founding fathers intended. For there to be a place where we can voice our opinions and make change through a democratic government. Remember we the people. when we the people i.e. animal lovers outweigh you the people i.e. animal eaters then we have the majority and we win. If you don't like that fact, move to another country. I do not eat any processed foods. No flour, rice etc. I only eat whole, natural, organic foods. I pick most of it from my own garden, just as god intended. I hope you do not call yourself a christian, because in the bible the lord tells us to take care of the animals, Not to send them to slaughter so you can fatten yourself up. If you wish to respond, please have the guts to leave your name this time.

|11.3.06 @ 12:50PM|#

The trolls cometh, and they are none to honest.

Jeanete,

Ketosis occurs only after your liver exhausts its store of glycogen -- just eating meat won't do it. Besides, ketosis isn't really that harmful.

We as humans absolutely do have the teeth and digestive system for meat. See http://www.vrg.org/nutshell/omni.htm (taken from the vegetarian resource group).

It [eating meat] causes cancer, heart disease, liver failure, kidney failure and a host of other illnesses. You are killing yourselves because of your gluttony... Drug users think that what they are doing is okay, yet we condem them and even send them to prison for what they do. Don't get me wrong, I am not condoning what they do, but why is it alright to do what you meat eaters do then.

I would wager that almost everyone here supports the legalization of drugs. Why do you think paternalism would be persuasive on a libertarian website?

Jeanete|11.3.06 @ 1:10PM|#

Chris S.

We as humans absolutely do have the teeth and digestive system for meat. See http://www.vrg.org/nutshell/omni.htm (taken from the vegetarian resource group).


Not according to Nobel prize winners. I believe what they have to say over what some website, probably funded by some dairy or meat organization has to say. Do they have any nobel prize winners stating this on this website you provided?

As for the legalization of drugs, I think that is just about the worst idea I have ever heard. Telling our children that it's okay to burn yourself out and then spend the rest of their lives on welfare because they cannot take care of themselves is just about the most ignorant thing I've ever heard.

So, I'm a troll huh? Well if I'm a troll than you are the Angel cast out of heaven himself.

I am the epitome of honesty. A perfect example. I do no harm. I recycle and just about everything else that is good for our earth. It is people like you that give this country a bad name. Killing is never the answer. It is only a solution that simple minded dolts come to.

And as for your paternalism, AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED, MOTHER KNOWS BEST, NOT FATHER.

|11.3.06 @ 1:12PM|#

Jeanete,

One more thing, Mademoiselle. I think you're reading the wrong bible if you think Christians are required to be vegetarians. Jesus enjoyed fish(Luke 24:42-43), and offered fish to the masses (Matthew 14:17-21). He also consumed lamb (Luke 22:8-15), which I personally find quite delicious. In Genesis, God explicitly gave humanity permission to eat meat(Genesis 9:2-3). See http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-Christian-vegetarian.html for more examples.

Me, I don't care much for the bible thumpers, but at least they ought to be honest in their bible thumpery.

Ok, I'm done now. Good day.

|11.3.06 @ 1:33PM|#

Hey Jacob:

Obviously, you have not witnessed the inhumane transport and slaughter of a horse. The other comments on this subject are so ludicrous, everyone has a comment but they no NOTHING about what they are commenting on. They should be embarrassed at what they look like, but they are oblivious because they are uneducated.

You, too, should not make any comments unless you have witnessed, up close and personal, what these animals are subjected to. One facility skinned a live two year old TB type filly, ALIVE, just to see what would happen, hung her by her hind legs and skinned her ALIVE. Another, upon arriving at the facility had gotten its leg stuck in the holes of the double deck trailer so they backed the vehicle into the unloading shute to break it off, then drug the horse out as it lay bleeding and shaking horribly from the pain.

There are too many other horrific tales to tell as it happens all the time. You, fall into the same category of these disgusting "unhumans".

I challenge you to visit one of the three slaughter houses and witness the process before you make any comments.

Equine Veterinarian in Ocala

Jeanete|11.3.06 @ 1:38PM|#

I am not a bible thumper. As you can see by the way I admittedly misqouted. Answer me this then. Why in the bible does it say for us to take care of the animals? I admit you have the right to eat meat if you want, but I also have the right to stand up for these atrocities taking place in these slaughter houses. You wouldn't be to happy if it were happening to you. Hung upside down and your throat slit, writhing in agony until your last drop of blood spilled on the floor. Your lack of compassion and conscience frightens me. It is people like you that scare the hell out of me. Okay, I'm done now. I would wish you a good day, but I don't give a crap if you have one or not!

Laura Boothby|11.3.06 @ 1:42PM|#

42 horses became 42 martyrs in the national fight against horse slaughter for human consumption in the early hours of September 27, 2006.
I looked for a way to convey their story to unknown masses that have no idea of the struggle of American horses and the people who work everyday to make this country safer for them. These noble creatures who give everything to their human care givers without question. Then I had a thought instead of going with the emotional response, I thought I would address the facts and lies that were reported in many of the reports that were posted at news outlets across the Midwest.
The statement that the horses involved in the accident were "old" horses is false. The horses in the accident ranged in ages from 7 months old to 26 years old. Horses can live well into their thirties and at 7 months they haven't even been given a chance.
I can only assume that the term "old" was thrown at the reporter by Cavel and the truck driver. This of course was false and must be emphasized that the majority of horses that go to slaughter are healthy animals and are in good body condition. In published slaughter house records it is documented that horses in good/healthy condition get top dollar.

Next I would like to address Cavel manager Jim Tucker's statement that reads as follows:
"Treating these animals humanely not only happens to be the right thing to do, but it's in our best business interest to see that the horses are treated well during their transportation to our facility," Cavel General Manager Jim Tucker said.
"Stressed horses result in an inferior product, and injured horses must be turned away," he said.*
Anyone who has campaigned to end the inhumane slaughter of horses knows that the above statement is simply a lie! Evidence has shown that many horses that are injured are indeed accepted for slaughter.
Just last month 19 horses bruised, battered and bloody were processed at a Texas slaughter plant. The man transporting the horses has been charged with 5 counts of animal abuse. Over the years former employees from Cavel have come forward and spoken about the horrors the horses go through before they are strung up and bled.

Each slaughter plant insists they cannot control what a single transporter will do yet they continue to do business with the same kill buyers repeatedly. They can control who they do business with yet they continue to turn their backs to the suffering of all equine during transport.

A spokesman for Cavel said the horse trader, not the processing facility, arranges for the
transportation and chooses the driver.
Cavel also said that it was disappointed the driver had allegedly been in violation of USDA
transportation regulations


These statements are part of a long list of statements made by Jim Tucker, in a desperate attempt to quiet public outcry .
In 2005 when Cavel bought and slaughtered several wild mustangs he insisted that his plant did not want to buy wild horse meat.
Quoting an article written by Samantha Young in May 2005:
"We've told our buyers, 'Don't bring BLM wild horses to us,' " plant
manager James Tucker said, adding that wild horses generally do not
yield good meat.

Representatives for Beltex Corp. of Fort Worth, Texas, and Dallas Crown
of Kaufman, Texas, said BLM officials had yet to contact them.

"We're not interested in those horses anyway," said Jim Bradshaw,
counsel for Dallas Crown.++


Yet in another article from the same time period (April 22, 2005) this is what Jim Tucker had to say on the slaughter of wild mustangs:

**Cavel General Manager Jim Tucker said the slaughterhouse has legally purchased wild horses from sellers who have the appropriate certification from the BLM.
"BLM allows horses to be adopted and held for a certain amount of time and allows them to be slaughtered," he said.

He confirmed that within the last week, Cavel purchased and slaughtered some horses from a seller who had gotten them through the BLM. He declined to say how many horses were purchased or from whom they were purchased, saying that such information is "proprietary."
He also said it wasn't the first time the slaughterhouse has processed wild horses.**


The horse slaughter industry has made an art out of contradiction. Take for instance the use of the words humane euthanasia.
Euthanasia is the practice of killing in a painless or minimally painful way for merciful reasons, usually to end suffering.

In a statement released Wednesday, Cavel confirmed the horses were bound
for the slaughterhouse, where they would have been euthanized under the
supervision of federal inspectors and USDA veterinarians, but the horses did
belong to the horse trader who bought them until they reach the plant.

Slaughter plants continue to use this word of mercy knowing full well that the majority of this country believe in humane euthanasia for our animal companions. It is a gross and negligent use of this word. There is nothing about horse slaughter that is humane.
From the beginning to the end horses, ponies, mules, and donkeys sent to slaughter are thrown into an inhumane situation. Beginning at auction houses across this country where disease and injury are regular occurrences. Only to be hauled for days on end without rest, food or water to one of the three operating slaughter plants.
The ending of the journey is the harshest reality. Horses are sent down to slaughter one by one. Forced through fencing and gates by men screaming and whipping them. They can hear other horses screaming in terror and thrashing in the "kill box". They can smell the blood and sweat of the horses that have been strung up before them. The horse next in line can see what is happening and they know what is coming. They struggle and fight for their lives. Blasted again and again with the captive bolt gun, in the shoulder, in the neck, on their smooth noses.....
Is this a humane end to a life of service or for a life that never even had a chance to begin? I say No.
You can find updates and more info on the web site of the organization caring for the survivors at www.longmeadowrescueranch.org


Kind Regards,
Laura Boothby

|11.3.06 @ 1:47PM|#

Jeneate,

Dearest horse lover, it would be delightful if you started citing your scientific and religious assertions. I just don't feel that I know you well enough to blindly accept your claims about human evolution, God, etc. Perhaps we ought to make a deal: I'll stop eating cats if you start citing your arguments.

By the way, I have this sinking feeling that I'm being punk'd (and if I am, you've done a great job). I don't think anyone is quite so self righteous to claim that they're "the epitome of honesty." And for the self-described best person in the world (does no harm, perfectly honest, etc.), I would expect you to be a bit more polite.

JEANETE|11.3.06 @ 1:47PM|#

AND ANOTHER THING CHRIS. THE BIBLE WAS WRITTEN BY MAN. HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT THE LORD GAVE US PERMISSION TO EAT MEAT? WERE YOU THERE WHEN IT WAS STATED. MAN COULD HAVE PUT ANYTHING HE WANTED INTO THESE WRITINGS TO FULFILL HIS OWN GLUTTUNOUS DESIRES. DON'T TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK THAT GOD SAID. I KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN RIGHT AND WRONG. OBVIOUSLY YOU DO NOT.

|11.3.06 @ 1:55PM|#

I am a horse owner, I do rescue a few at some local auctions from kill buyers.

IMO It should NOT be banned, due to all of the unwanted and the horses that can NOT be handled where will they go? Who is willing to fork up the money to feed them? house them? pay their medical bills? With a hay shortage its hard.

BUT YES the way they are "stunning" the horses with the "BOLT" is VERY INHUMANE. The "BOLT" was created to kill cows with one blow to the head. A horse needs at least 3-4 times, sometime more, and a BIG majority of them are still alive and well aware of their surroundings when they are hung by their leg and their throats cut open to bleed to death. Cows are dead before this action takes place.

IMO maybe people wouldn't be so harsh about this situation if they could come up with a more humane way to kill the horses in a different way before they are hung.

|11.3.06 @ 1:55PM|#

Jeanete,

I'm growing quite fond of our frequent correspondence (although I still think I'm being punk'd). To answer your last post, no, I don't care much about the bible either, but remember: you were the one who brought it up in the first place. As you may know, 12:49 (your bible post) is before 1:19 (my retort). This is the way we humans keep track of time, even in crazy horse land.

freaked out!|11.3.06 @ 2:02PM|#

this is just sick....really sick!
I don't even know if it's really worth answering this post...is it pure provocation against animal lovers???

btw..London...a " 3rd world hell hole"?????wow....you must live in a very interesting place in the US....am I wrong??? it's true that a city like London is really without culture or monumentS, history....you must live in a much better place that matches your intellectual level...which is...really HIGH (regarding the comments about horses in your post)!!!! incredible!!!!I'm impressed....not kidding!so many places in the US are filled with culture and history that of course...London was not interesting.....how lucky you are!

Jeanete|11.3.06 @ 2:21PM|#

Even honest people need to be a little rude sometimes. Especially when dealing with hard-headed fools. I'm not saying you are, just that they are out there. I'd rather be crazy than an unfeeling jerk. I never said I was the "Best person in the world" Only one who cares and does her best to be honest and caring. I'm Sorry, I guess epitome was too strong of a word. And as for me "citing" bible qoutations, that will never happen. I was not there when these things were or were not said, so I don't know if they are true or not. I am only giving you my take on things. People who rely on what other people said two thousand year ago should step into the 21st century. Seeing as you know so much about the bible and these qoutations and what god said about eating meat, I dare you to prove it. And if you read what I said carefully, I said I hope YOU don't call yourself a christian. I never said I was. I believe in doing no harm, that is my religion. We may not know how to tell time here in crazy horse land, but we certainly can read. And may I say, it has been good debating with you. And I wish this topic were only something you would see on punk'd, but sadly that is not the case.

T|11.3.06 @ 2:25PM|#

I'd like to know how the horse people, not to be confused with centaurs, found this thread. Can anybody clue me in?

Out of curiosity, does the law ban all slaughter for meat, or just commercial slaughter? If Flicka has run out her mortal coil, can I put a bullet in her head and chow down? Or will that be verboten as well?

BTW, has anyone ever noticed that people who are truly passionate and comitted to their causes lose all sense of perspective and humor?

Jeanete|11.3.06 @ 2:40PM|#

To T: I thought this was America and that the internet was free for everyone to use and comment on. I did not know that this thread was by invite only. If it was, please show me a copy of this invitation for verification, and we will leave. If you cannot take the comments of the animal lovers of the world, stop posting your obviously not-funny threads.
You can dish it out, but you can't take it, huh? Why don't you take your ball and go home.

|11.3.06 @ 2:44PM|#

Jeanete,

And as for me "citing" bible qoutations, that will never happen. I was not there when these things were or were not said, so I don't know if they are true or not. I am only giving you my take on things. People who rely on what other people said two thousand year ago should step into the 21st century. Seeing as you know so much about the bible and these qoutations and what god said about eating meat, I dare you to prove it. And if you read what I said carefully, I said I hope YOU don't call yourself a christian. I never said I was. I believe in doing no harm, that is my religion.

As I wrote above, I don't care for the bible. I am, however, rather handy with Google, and it didn't take me more than a second to find quotes to undermine your bible comment. I would have done you the same favor if you had brought up the Koran, the Rig Veda, or whatever else. My point was that you shouldn't make claims without adequate support.

The same is true for your arguments regarding human biology. An unnamed nobel prize winner says this, tooth structure proves that, I know right from wrong, and you don't... Until you start providing support, your bald statements carry all the persuasive force of a legal brief written by a drunk kitten. Now is your chance to dazzle me: Why shouldn't I consume that kitten?

Jeanete|11.3.06 @ 3:04PM|#

I will post why you should not eat that kitten, as soon as you prove to me that god said you could eat meat, without using google. Now's your chance to dazzle me, I hope you have the lord on speed dial. Besides, I dared you to prove yourself first. And not with what some googlehead said.

|11.3.06 @ 3:20PM|#

Jeanete,

As amusing as this conversation has become, perhaps you're reading too much into my retort of you bible comment. You see, I don't beleive in God. Do I have the "lord on speed dial"? Only in the same way that I have unicorns on my speed dial.

All I want from you is a little bit of support from your arguments. Do I need to club a baby seal to make this happen? Because, I'm afraid I will. I'll do anything to amuse myself. You see, we "Angels cast out from heaven" are apt to do such things -- as you said, we don't know right from wrong. Baby seals and kittens are depending on you -- It's YOU who will save them by authoring a single, well-constructed and well-suported argument. Or will you let them perish at the hands of "googleheads"?

Jeanete|11.3.06 @ 3:23PM|#

I did some google searches as you suggested.
Serial killers was my choice. If you google this subject yourself, you will see that almost all of them were animal abusers. Some of them just abused them, some of them ate animals, including kittens. I do not presume to tell you what to eat, but if you want to include yourself in this category with the sickest humans on earth, you go right ahead and eat that kitten. Why stop there, why not eat your or others children? They are meat after all. Why should they be left out? Why don't we all just get our knives and forks and go hog wild.

Jeanete|11.3.06 @ 3:37PM|#

And as for you not believing in god, all I can say to that is, if you are going to live like there is no god, you had better be right.

Jeanete|11.3.06 @ 4:14PM|#

What, no smart-ass response? Too busy eating children, or is it kittens?

Dave|11.3.06 @ 4:30PM|#

Huge hearts and small brains on full display. This is how the California ban got passed.

prove to me that god said you could eat meat

Leviticus 11: And the LORD spake unto Moses and to Aaron, saying unto them, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, These are the beasts which ye shall eat among all the beasts that are on the earth. Whatsoever parteth the hoof, and is clovenfooted, and cheweth the cud, among the beasts, that shall ye eat.

...

These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.

Jeanete|11.3.06 @ 4:43PM|#

I said proof god said it. Not what someone (MAN) wrote two thousand years ago, you have no proof beyond your babblings. I shall say that noone eateth meat. That does not make it fact. You can qoute all day long, that does not prove anything. You people are missing the point. If the bible said eat your children, would you? No it's insanity. So please stop all the bible babble, I'm really sorry I brought it up in the first place. you're all obviously so wrapped up in yourselves that you have completely lost all humanity. These horses are being tortured. It sounds like you're all Bush supporters, you really like to torture. So be it. I'm done coming back here to see what you morons have to say.

DAPHNE|11.3.06 @ 4:45PM|#

Now is your chance to dazzle me: Why shouldn't I consume that kitten?

HEY CHRIS S WISH I HAD YOU FACE TO FACE EXPLAIN TO YOU WHY YOU SHOULDN'T..!! I COULD EAT YOU ALIVE IN 1 SEC ..AM I CLEAR ENOUGH OR SHOULD I BE MORE RUDE TO YOU ?? GUYS LIKE YOU MAKE ME SICK & FURIOUS..EAT YOUR KIDS RATHER THAN A KITTEN YOU MORON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

wingnutx|11.3.06 @ 5:16PM|#

First, the method by which the slaughterhouses use (the captive bolt gun) is not considered to be humane.

This is why I advocate decapitation with a samurai sword.

Preferrably in a calm room, decorated with cherry blossoms and small waterfalls.

Jeanete|11.3.06 @ 5:17PM|#

Here's some bible qoutes for you dave:

Of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them ALIVE with thee
GEN 6:19

A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast.
PROV. 12:10

and the grandest that I found

Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you.
GEN. 9:3 so there you go, I guess "GOD" is giving you permission to eat eachother. Have at it. Eat eachother and then the rest of us can live in a peaceful world.

|11.3.06 @ 5:17PM|#

There are very few souls in this world that will let you jump on their back, whip them and choke them with a bit, and still love you.

Even dogs will start fearing you if you whip them.

Craig|11.3.06 @ 5:25PM|#

Good for Willie in standing up for the wild horses. It is atrocious that some would subject them to such cruelty and abuse and finally cruel slaughter. Pray the American Anti Slaughter bill passes the Senate!

|11.3.06 @ 5:31PM|#

Horses have served Man since the dawn of early civilization. If it weren't for Horses, societies would not be who they are today. It was Horses who valiantly and courageously carried some of the most famous Soldiers into countless battles. It was Horses who bravely and fearlessly carried Man from one century to the next.

And this is how we choose to repay them... How could anyone turn on their best friend? Because that is the way a Horse would see it. You build a lifetime bonding, the Horse carries you on his back, allows you to whip and kick him, choke him with a bit... And at the end of the day, he still loves you anyway. But can you say the same? Or are you the sadistic, heartless a$$hole who is calling up the Glue Factory to see what other minial profit you can possibly make?

Rather than eat an Animal with such a brilliantly, untainted soul, why not eat one with a lack of one? If you are so against Animal-specific slaughter, than why should anyone fight to protect against eating you?

|11.3.06 @ 5:43PM|#

Daphne & Jeanete:

In light of your comments about child eating, I have decided to change my ways. I will no longer eat kittens. From now on, it will only be children. The kittens are too cute to be consumed, and besides, serial killers ate kittens. Apparently, serial killers also drank water (that's what I heard -- I'm not even kidding!!!!), so I'm switching from water to blood and urine.

|11.3.06 @ 5:45PM|#

There are very few souls in this world that will let you jump on their back, whip them and choke them with a bit, and still love you.

Even dogs will start fearing you if you whip them.

I've found that lettuce never judges me after a good lashing and choking, which is why I never eat the stuff. It just seems so wrong.

|11.3.06 @ 5:48PM|#

WHAT A 'CLEVER' LOSER YOU ARE CHRIS..GO & SHOOT YOURSELF CAUSE YOU ARE BREAKING 'SOME BALLS' HERE.............. CIAO IDIOTA!!!!!!!!!!!

|11.3.06 @ 5:56PM|#

Daphne,

I'm going to miss your funky capitalization and punctuation. I'm also sorry for breaking 'some balls.' I really am.

No matter what anyone else says, you've got an exceptional sense of humor, and a keen understanding of when people are being serious.

Ciao, my good friend.

|11.3.06 @ 6:08PM|#

Its a PETA invasion!!!!
Grab your steaks and head for hills!!!!

|11.3.06 @ 6:32PM|#

Wow! That was AWESOME! What the hell just happened?

wingnutx|11.3.06 @ 7:46PM|#

Kittens are like M&Ms.

After you skin them there's just not enough left to be worth the effort.

Dave|11.3.06 @ 11:39PM|#

Jeanete - You failed to specify which God, so it is reasonable to presume that you meant the Judeo-Christian-Muslim God whose words are presented in the holy writings I referenced. Your response denying the validity of this God is a lazy cop-out, and about what I'd expected. You asked where 'God' said it. I showed you. You don't like it so you try to change the subject. As I said, big hearts, small brains.

Your inability to read for context (ref. your Genesis quotes), to sustain connected thought across more than one post, or even to retain the context of a discussion amply demonstrate the intellectual paucity of your argument.

Keep screaming and throwing feces like a good little primate.

Carolyne & Sally - Your overly romantized image of the man/horse relationship is the kind of thing that is created by dreamy-eyed pre-teen girls, and almost never survives the actual experience. "You build a lifetime bonding," - no, the critter won't miss you at all if someone else takes your place. "the Horse carries you on his back," - if you have a decent seat at all, most of your weight is over the withers. Sitting further back, on the back proper, is abusive. "allows you to whip and kick him," - A properly trained animal is never whipped or kicked. All it takes is a touch of leather (if driving) or heel (if riding) to communicate your desires. "choke him with a bit." - I have no idea how a bit could be placed to obstruct breathing. It's a bar of metal between the teeth, not a strap around the throat. Where did you learn to put on a bridle? "And at the end of the day, he still loves you anyway." - purest wishful thinking and anthropomorphizing.

It's really a fascinating concept. Try learning something about a subject before actually having an opinion. You'll look less foolish.

Manes and Tails|11.3.06 @ 11:42PM|#

Horse slaughter is a violation of the Humane Slaughter Act of 1958 (amended and made stronger in 2002). There does not exist a method of horse slaughter that complies with the statute. Therefore, horse slaughter is illegal.

Regarding the 'property rights' argument that pro-slaughter people attempt to use, people whom have had their horses stolen and slaughtered have their property rights violated by the existance of the illegal slaughter industry. These horse owners have suffered material and psychological harm and they can never recover that which they have lost.

It is illegal to slaughter a horse, pony, foal, donkey, or mule. That is a fact that has been ignored by the USDA long enough.

|11.4.06 @ 8:47AM|#

Jeanete:

"When we the people i.e. animal lovers outweigh you the people i.e. animal eaters then we have the majority and we win."

No, you don't win anything, the majority doesn't get to dictate policy to the minority, you just get to outnumber us. You still are required, by law, to respect our MINORITY rights. The law says we have the right to eat meat, therefore your superior numbers are irrelevant. Unless you think minorities shouldn't have rights?

Jeanete|11.4.06 @ 1:04PM|#

Dave,

I did not ask you to show me where god said it, I asked you for PROOF that god said it. There is a huge difference. I can google bible qoutes all day long as well, this does not make them factual. It is a fact however, that people in hot, arid, desert regions are subject to dillusions and mirages. That has been proven to be a fact. There is a reason that people refer to the bible as "The greatest STORY ever told." So therefore, your lack of any facts or proof that god actually said these things is what makes your arguement paucitous. Any man can sit down with a writing implement and a scroll and make things up and say they are true. Until you can show me proof, hard evidence, that god said these things, you my dear Sir are the primate throwing feces around.

To Buckshot- of course everyone should have rights.I work tirelessly to raise money and awareness for peoples' and animals' rights all over the world. In fact I just wrapped up a fundraiser that collected over $50,000 for the ravaged people of Darfur. How much did you give? In my statement I was refering to people who go out and vote and have the majority of the votes and win the election, or try to get bills passed etc. This gives them the majority rule. Do you know anything about our government?

|11.4.06 @ 2:31PM|#

To Jeanete:

I've made note in the past, many times, that whenever I get into a debate with a liberal they don't attack my argument with facts, they attack my character, what kind of person I am to think such a thing. Saying that you are a better person than me (not necessarily true) because of your haughty opinion doesn't make your opinion any more valid than mine, even if I am a bad person.
I also work, not tirelessly, I take breaks. How hard you work to raise people's awareness of animal suffering is laudable but irrelevant to your argument. I gave up meat for health reasons, but If I could I wouldn't mind eating a dead, fried chicken right now. I feed stray cats and have spent money getting them fixed & released, that doesn't give me any special consideration in a debate on dietary propriety or animal rights PC.
How much did I give? I didn't give a goddamn thing. Also irrelevant to your argument.
If the animals lovers who don't eat meat outweight the animal lovers (me) who do eat meat, I still get to eat meat, we don't have a dictatorship of the majority in this country. Don't you know anything about our government?

carolyne|11.4.06 @ 2:36PM|#

Your site is f'd up. I just tried sending my comment and it said it accepted it, but then it didn't go through.

bullshit, not worth my time anyway.

Sincerely,

your little baby,
Carolyne
:)

yeeeehaaaaaawwwwwwww

Jeanete|11.4.06 @ 3:30PM|#

Buckshot

First of all, the things I said in earlier responses were to Chris. Chris and I were having a conversation, not you and I. We were both playing devil's advocate. I cannot attack your character, I do not know you. The only thing I can attack (and I don't like that word, because I was not attacking you), is your arguements. What do you have against facts anyway? Noone said you were a bad person. And if anyone is attacking anyone here, it is you attacking me. Please, let's keep our facts straight here. OOPS! I'm sorry, you don't like facts. :>( And, yes there is such a thing as majority rule. Look it up on wikipedia if you don't believe me.

|11.4.06 @ 4:34PM|#

"First of all, the things I said in earlier responses were to Chris. Chris and I were having a conversation, not you and I".
This is a public forum, anyone can jump in.

You said I didn't give to your charity, that is bringing my character into the fray (didn't give = bad). You didn't directly attack me, correct. I didn't attack you either, I said your charitable work is irrelevant ot the validity of your argument.

In an earlier comment, you said you grow and eat your own food like god intended. Assuming there is a god, How do you know what god's intentions are? Show me the FACT that god intends for you to eat a certain way.(OOPS! I'm sorry, you don't like facts). Humans have proven themselve to be the most successfull predators the world has ever seen, and all predators eat meat. That is my PROOF that God intended for people to eat meat. I've been eating, chewing and digesting meat successfully for over a half century, that's more proof that God entended for meat to be a part of our diet.
Majority rule, by your definition, means white people have the right to vote black people into slavery.

This was my second response, my first one was WAY better, but the squirrels ate it.

Jeanete|11.4.06 @ 6:10PM|#

Buckshot

I never asked you to give to my charity. I asked if you gave to a charity. At no time did I say you were bad for not giving. I only asked. You are the one reading things that are not there. I should have said that I eat naturally, period, you're right there. And the statement that people have proven themselves to be the greatest predators on earth should sadden you, not make you feel good about yourself. We have completely destroyed our earth. Extincted too many species to count, depleted resources without renewing and killed for absolutely nothing. Look at Iraq. And you are proud of this fact? FYI, I didn't write the defintion of majority rule, I only read it. I am first generation born in this country in my family. My ancestors are from Hungary and Ireland, not 17th century england. If you want to get into that debate, just remember those asses took out the Native Americans long before they enslaved africans. And as for anyone jumping in, of course, the more the merrier, but those comments were not and are still not directed towards you. Chris and I were having a devil's advocate debate. Those comments were not directed towards anyone, they were general statements. I sometimes like to do that to get a rise out of people to see how they react, See what they have to say, no matter how moronic. You are taking things way to personally. And I thought you said earlier that you gave up meat for health reasons, or was that just more B.S.? Was it all that meat that gave you health problems in the first place? Lastly, charitable work is never irrelevant, no matter what arguement or point you are trying to make. Fyi, I love facts. They prove others wrong!!!!!

|11.4.06 @ 7:51PM|#

AGAIN!! The squirrels ate it!!
Jeanete, I gave you a good argument/reply, filled with good humor and no hard feelings. I'm sick of the wasted effort.

Good luck with you crusade.:)

Jeanete|11.4.06 @ 8:23PM|#

I think it's more like you don't have anything intelligent to say. I think you proved that. Is your wittle brain tired. Come on, at least comment on how single handedly enslaved all africans. Quiter!!!!!!! I only have one day off a week to play. Are you sure you want to take your ball and go home? :>(

Nick|11.5.06 @ 3:19AM|#

Jeanette,
Don't worry about the planet. In the long run, the Earth will take care of itself. If humans mess things up too badly, we will be the ones to pay for it. I would be interested to hear how you differentiate between organisms that you can/cannot eat. Personally, I don't see any real distinction between killing a cow, a horse or a carrot. Life is life.
FYI, "extincted" is not a word.

Buckshot|11.5.06 @ 8:28AM|#

Jeanete:

The squirrels ate my comment, If you don't believe it, fine. Enslaving Africans?!?! You don't even know what you're talking about. I wish you a good natured good luck and you comment about my wittle brain, you have the mind of a child. Troll on down the road.

Jeanete|11.5.06 @ 10:47AM|#

Nick, you do not have to drain the blood out of a carrot while it writhes in pain before you eat it. It cannot learn to do tricks, or bark for joy when you come home. I do not want to be the one who pays for YOUR mistakes. Got it, Jerky? Then, if life is life, why don't you go eat a child? See how moronic that sounds?

Buckshot, I sincerely apologize to you. I really do, I got carried away, as it seems most of the people do here. It is okay for Chris to say he's going to club seals and drink blood and urine, but it's not okay for me to say we should be more humane to the animals?

You all seem to be saying it is okay to have an opinion here, if it's your opinion, right? You all have very small minds. You do not want to hear others opinons of even take playing devil's advocate for what it is. You just spout off without saying anything that has any tangible meaning. I am not a troll. I am 5' 10" and 135 lbs, farthest thing from a troll. More like an ogre that is going to come eat your children, seeing as you are all saying it is okay to eat anything. Another moronic statement that you should all understand.

Jeanete|11.5.06 @ 10:57AM|#

I forgot to make correction on "extincted"

I was very riled , I meant extirpated. "To destroy the whole of"

Jeanete|11.5.06 @ 12:04PM|#

http://www.sharkonline.org/?P=0000000528

Here's a little video for you all to watch. Cannot hyperlink it here, just copy and paste.
Watch all 8 minutes of it. Do not stop it, you need to see what's going on. If you get the slightest enjoyment out of it, I recommend that you sign yourself into the nearest mental facility.

Jeanete|11.5.06 @ 12:06PM|#

Or you can just go to horsekillers.com

Jeanete|11.5.06 @ 1:37PM|#

Buckshot

In response to me not knowing what I am talking about, You are the one that said "By my defintion of Majority rule, white people have the right to vote black people into slavery" I told you before, I did not write the definition, I only read it. You are the one who brought that into play. You said that by not giving to charity=bad person. So, by your statement, because I am white I enslaved africans. And are any of you going to answer any of my questions with some facts, not just feeble-minded responses that have nothing to do with the questions I have asked? I didn't think so. Go stick your heads back in the sand until it's time to stuff your faces or go to the mall.

Jeanete|11.5.06 @ 4:19PM|#

Here's some FACTS about animal abuse and the human condition. Dispute this.


Many studies in psychology, sociology, and criminology during the last 25 years have demonstrated that violent offenders frequently have childhood and adolescent histories of serious and repeated animal cruelty. The FBI has recognized the connection since the 1970s, when its analysis of the lives of serial killers suggested that most had killed or tortured animals as children. Other research has shown consistent patterns of animal cruelty among perpetrators of more common forms of violence, including child abuse, spouse abuse, and elder abuse. In fact, the American Psychiatric Association considers animal cruelty one of the diagnostic criteria of conduct disorder.

If you break it down to its bare essentials:
"Abusing an animal is a way for a human to find power/joy/fulfillment through the torture of a victim they know cannot defend itself."

Now break down a human crime, say rape. If we substitute a few pronouns, it's the SAME THING.
"Rape is a way for a human to find power/joy/fulfillment through the torture of a victim they know cannot defend themselves."

Now try it with, say, domestic abuse such as child abuse or spousal abuse:
"Child abuse is a way for a human to find power/joy/fulfillment through the torture of a victim they know cannot defend themselves."

Do you see the pattern here?

The line separating an animal abuser from someone capable of committing human abuse is much finer than most people care to consider. People abuse animals for the same reasons they abuse people. Some of them will stop with animals, but enough have been proven to continue on to commit violent crimes to people that it's worth paying attention to.

Virtually every serious violent offender has a history of animal abuse in their past, and since there's no way to know which animal abuser is going to continue on to commit violent human crimes, they should ALL be taken that seriously. FBI Supervisory Special Agent Allen Brantley was quoted as saying "Animal cruelty... is not a harmless venting of emotion in a healthy individual; this is a warning sign..." It should be looked at as exactly that. Its a clear indicator of psychological issues that can and often DO lead to more violent human crimes.

Dr. Randall Lockwood, who has a doctorate in psychology and is senior vice president for anti-cruelty initiatives and training for the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, states "A kid who is abusive to a pet is quite often acting out violence directly experienced or witnessed in the home," Lockwood said, adding that about one-third of children who are exposed to family violence will act out this violence, often against their own pets.

Others either abuse pets or threaten to abuse them as a way to control an individual.

"So much of animal cruelty... is really about power or control," Lockwood said. Often, aggression starts with a real or perceived injustice. The person feels powerless and develops a warped sense of self-respect. Eventually they feel strong only by being able to dominate a person or animal.

Sometimes, young children and those with developmental disabilities who harm animals don't understand what they're doing, Lockwood said. And animal hoarding - the practice of keeping dozens of animals in deplorable conditions - often is a symptom of a greater mental illness, such as obsessive-compulsive disorder.

Just as in situations of other types of abuse, a victim of abuse often becomes a perpetrator. According to Lockwood, when women abuse animals, they "almost always have a history of victimization themselves. That's where a lot of that rage comes from."

In domestic violence situations, women are often afraid to leave the home out of fear the abuser will harm the family pet, which has lead to the creation of Animal Safehouse programs, which provide foster care for the pets of victims in domestic violence situations, empowering them to leave the abusive situation and get help.

Whether a teenager shoots a cat without provocation or an elderly woman is hoarding 200 cats in her home, "both are exhibiting mental health issues... but need very different kinds of attention," Lockwood said.

Those who abuse animals for no obvious reason, Lockwood said, are "budding psychopaths." They have no empathy and only see the world as what it's going to do for them.

History is full of high-profile examples of this connection:

Patrick Sherrill, who killed 14 coworkers at a post office and then shot himself, had a history of stealing local pets and allowing his own dog to attack and mutilate them.
Earl Kenneth Shriner, who raped, stabbed, and mutilated a 7-year-old boy, had been widely known in his neighborhood as the man who put firecrackers in dogs? rectums and strung up cats.
Brenda Spencer, who opened fire at a San Diego school, killing two children and injuring nine others, had repeatedly abused cats and dogs, often by setting their tails on fire.
Albert DeSalvo, the "Boston Strangler" who killed 13 women, trapped dogs and cats in orange crates and shot arrows through the boxes in his youth.
Carroll Edward Cole, executed for five of the 35 murders of which he was accused, said his first act of violence as a child was to strangle a puppy.
In 1987, three Missouri high school students were charged with the beating death of a classmate. They had histories of repeated acts of animal mutilation starting several years earlier. One confessed that he had killed so many cats he?d lost count. Two brothers who murdered their parents had previously told classmates that they had decapitated a cat.
Serial killer Jeffrey Dahmer had impaled dogs? heads, frogs, and cats on sticks.

More recently, high school killers such as 15-year-old Kip Kinkel in Springfield, Ore., and Luke Woodham, 16, in Pearl, Miss., tortured animals before embarking on shooting sprees. Columbine High School students Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, who shot and killed 12 classmates before turning their guns on themselves, bragged about mutilating animals to their friends.

As powerful a statement as the high-profile examples above make, they don't even begin to scratch the surface of the whole truth behind the abuse connection. Learning more about the animal cruelty/interpersonal violence connection is vital for community members and law enforcement alike.

Related Links (Off-site links open in a new window)
The Whole Picture
Pet-Abuse.Com Cruelty Connection Cases
American Humane: The Link
National Crime Prevention Council: Screening Animal Cruelty Cases for Domestic Violence
Factors in the Assessment of Dangerousness in Perpetrators of Animal Cruelty
First Strike: The Connection Between Animal Cruelty and Human Violence
HSUS: Animal SafeHaven Directory
Society & Animals Forum: Articles on the Link
The Abuse of Animals and Domestic Violence
Battered Women's Reports of Their Partners' and Their Children's Cruelty to Animals
Animal Welfare and Domestic Violence
The Latham Foundation for the Promotion of Humane Education
Bibliography of Materials about Animal Abuse, Child Abuse and Domestic Violence

Nick|11.5.06 @ 5:02PM|#

Jeanete,
Animal torture is a separate issue from animal slaughter. People with serious psychological disorders torture and kill animals because they enjoy inflicting pain. While many animals are slaughtered under less than entirely humane conditions, this is not done for fun. Please do not compare every slaughterhouse worker, farmer, hunter, chef, etc, with serial killers. Until humans learn to photosynthesize, something has to die before we can eat.
In regards to your arguments about human evolution and anatomy, I suggest you pick up a physical anthropology text. It is not a coincidence that we evolved our large brains during the same period that we began eating meat. Meat is the only energy source that could support our brain's energy needs until we developed modern agriculture.
Finally, I don't eat children because they are tough and stringy. Let's refrain from name-calling, shall we?

Jeanete|11.5.06 @ 6:43PM|#

Nick,

The posting about animal torture was for a conversation that Chris and I were having the day before. That was not directed towards you or your response to me. The slaughterhouse workers, farmers, and chefs might not enjoy killing, however they do enjoy the monetary rewards they receive from these atrocities. you cannot tell me that hunters do not enjoy killing though, why else would they do it? Any moron can pick up a high powered rifle and shoot a defenseless animal from 500 yards. Show me one hunter that goes out and kills with his bare hands, face to face and I might be inclined to accept your arguement on that subject. On your anthropolgy arguement, I also see a correlation with our aggressiveness and destructiveness, so that isn't going to fly either. Riddle me this Batman, with the advent of modern agriculture, scientific findings on how animal fats cause and or contribute to many serious illnesses, and our so called superior large brains, why are people still eating animals? People are no longer evolving, they are regressing. I for one cannot understand how that does not scare the hell out of you. I see you did not address my question/statement on why I should have to pay for your mistakes. Remember, it is also your descendants that will have to deal with the messes that you cause. What a legacy to leave.

Jeanete|11.5.06 @ 7:42PM|#

Nick,
I did a little reading up on anthropolgy after your suggestion. Scientists speculate that eating meat caused our brains to grow, but they also say that our brains may have grown bigger to catch up with the enlarging skull, due to the increased intake of calcium they received via eating meat (animal eats greens which contain concentrations of calcium and we receive it via eating meat, rather than us eating the same greens and receiving pure unprocessed, digested calcium). Meaning that the bone grew bigger and the flesh held within also grew so it wouldn't be sloshing around in there. So, that leads me to believe that they really don't know for sure. I also found some findings(research done on wikipedia) that said this might actually have been a very bad thing, causing sections of our brains to grow that should have remained smaller, causing us to become predators and savages rather than grazers and dociles. So your arguement about so-called anthropological findings really aren't worth the papers that they are written on, are they. I can speculate all day long, but it doesn't mean much. Oh, and sorry about the jerky slam, totally uncalled for.

Jeanete|11.5.06 @ 7:59PM|#

Nick,

Let me clarify that a little. They were saying that it may have been the calcium that caused this, not the eating of meat. If we had just consumed calcium, it would have had the same effect. From that conclusion I can only "speculate" that meat really didn't have anything to do with it, it was the calcium that caused this to happen. So we should have more calcium, not more meat!!!!

dhex|11.6.06 @ 2:09PM|#

horses are pretty.

i've heard dog is pretty good from some korean friends.

|11.6.06 @ 3:05PM|#

Wow. I was just gonna have this piece of cheese toast, but the idiotic squabbling makes me want to go out and gnaw on roasted leg of HORSE.

You have failed to make me support a gov't sactioned ban on horse. You have succeeded in maknig me want to eat horse steak just to spite you.

I'm a vegatarian, and you're a fucktard.

|11.6.06 @ 3:20PM|#

Nick:

Finally, I don't eat children because they are tough and stringy.

Only the ones that run around outside all day are tough and stringy. The ones that sit inside and play XBox all day are usually tender and well-marbled, although you may have to trim a little excess fat off the steaks.

As for Horses, they are not noble animals. A horse crippled and ultimately killed Christopher Reeves. A horse broke Matthew Broderick's arm and Barbara Bach's leg. Many other famous celebrities have been injured by horses.

Many other such incidents occur but are not reported in the horse-loving mainstream because they happen to ordinary everyday folks. Once my own dad went riding on a horse; first it tried to bite him, and then it tried to brush him off by running under a tree with a low-hanging branch. He is sure this was deliberate. Cunning, oh how cunning, are these malevolent beasts.

Face it: Our equine foes would kill us all if they could; they are merely biding their time. At the right moment, when we trust them most, and we turn our backs, they will lash out with their hooves and bite with their teeth. It's us or them, I say.

|11.6.06 @ 3:22PM|#

"horse-loving mainstream" should be "horse-loving mainstream media"

Jeanete|11.6.06 @ 5:35PM|#

Well I can see I'm dealing with a bunch low class idiots here. Fucktard? Very intelligent.
When you start doing things for spite, you are only hurting yourself. And as for chewing on that horse leg, I HOPE YOU CHOKE ON IT!

You people are just wasting the little bit of clean air we have left.

If you can't stay on the horse, that's your own dumb fault.

GET YOUR HEADS OUT OF YOUR ASSES! Not one of you except for nick has had anything intelligent to say.

I will say one last thing before I go forever.

I think Bugs Bunny said it best

"What a bunch of Maroons"

Jeanete|11.6.06 @ 6:13PM|#

One last comment to lunchbreak

You do know that the three foreign owned slaughter houses here in the U.S. do not pay taxes, right? That's right, more illegal aliens not paying taxes. So when your taxes are raised to support these fucktards (your word, not mine) please don't bitch about it.

Betsy|11.6.06 @ 7:46PM|#

Stevo,

Horses are very intuitive, it knew your father was a real jackass and didn't want him on it's back. I know he's a jackass because he raised you, didn't he.

|11.6.06 @ 11:22PM|#

Explain to me how they are illegal aliens?

I have no idea how a firm gets by without paying taxes. It doesn't matter if they are foreign owned or not. I'll admit that perhaps I am ignorant of some piece of law there so let me know what it is.

I can't see how eating horse is worse than eating other animals. Perhaps eating any animal is wrong. I don't think so, but either explain the difference or argue from the point that eating meat is bad period. Mixing the two weakens your argument.

If you are going to try to convince someone who disagrees with you that you are right comparing them to serial killers is not going to help change their minds. Arguments like that work when people reinforce each other as to how right they are, but do little good to convince those that disagree with them. Now if your goal is to have fun and feel good about yourself then there are no rules; just have fun.

Nick made a better point than I could about the error with that comparision so I won't go there.

J|11.7.06 @ 1:27PM|#

http://www.kaufmanzoning.net/horsemeat/

Here is a site you can go to that will show you copies of their tax returns. They are a matter of public record. I really shouldn't have to do the research for you, but there it is. You can also watch videos on the inhumane treatment and letters from celebs. Serial killer reference for the last time was for a completely seperate discussion. Illegal aliens reference was a metaphore for foreign bodies reaping benefits in our country without paying taxes. you do know what a metaphore is right, or should I provide the defintion for you?
People have the right to eat whatever they want, but when an american icon is being slaughtered inhumanely for foreign consumption, we as Americans totally have the right to be outraged, and registered voters have the right to contact their senate and congress to get something done to stop it. This is after all, still America.

Jason|11.8.06 @ 12:07AM|#

PREACH SISTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!