New at Reason

|7.18.06 @ 7:24AM|#

Today, being manly is politically incorrect, that is, for everyone except lesbians.

|7.18.06 @ 8:07AM|#

Judging from movies, TV and ad campaigns being manly means being a beer guzzling moron who spends his entire paycheck gambling and at strip clubs and most of his spare time playing videogames. Of course you can be a fat, obnoxious simpleton with a dead end job and still have a girlfriend or a wife who has a PHD, runs a large museum and looks like Jennifer Aniston.

|7.18.06 @ 8:10AM|#

Guy,
If by manly, you mean misogynistic, then yes. However, it's possible to be manly and not threatened by empowered women. In fact, it's quite manly to not be threatened by empowered women.

|7.18.06 @ 8:32AM|#

"In my experience it is difficult for a man who is attracted to a woman not to find her cute, rather than intimidating, when she gets angry."

I'm not exactly sure why Young finds the above statement so shocking. It's an observation, not a prescription, and one that I think is accurate more often than not.

|7.18.06 @ 8:38AM|#

OK, this column was genuinely fun to read. None of the "On the one hand...but on the other hand...." And while I'm not sure that the people discussed in the article are terribly significant, sometimes it's fun to ogle the freaks.

Nice article.

|7.18.06 @ 8:46AM|#

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tucker-max/pass-the-beer-in-defense_b_22530.html

That sounds like a much better defense than that guy was giving. The "cute when angry" thing was more odd because it was about women getting angry at being raped.

|7.18.06 @ 8:53AM|#

"The "cute when angry" thing was more odd because it was about women getting angry at being raped."

If that is true, that is not "odd" it is downright immoral and bizare.

|7.18.06 @ 8:57AM|#

Hey Mo,

That's exactly the problem... in the PC Thesaurus, "manly" has become synonymous with "mysogynistic".

I'm not at all threatened by empowered women. I'm threatened by angry feminists who hate men and can bury someone for a politically incorrect comment, regardless of whether or not it's accurate. Take Larry Summers for instance.

Hell, if it weren't that way, I'd be posting this under my real name.

|7.18.06 @ 8:58AM|#

The "cute when angry" thing was more odd because it was about women getting angry at being raped.

Whoa, J.R. Those were two separate statements in the book. Cathy just happened to put them in the same paragraph.

|7.18.06 @ 9:02AM|#

Mansfield warned that �the protective element of manliness is endangered by women having equal access to jobs outside the home� and that nonfeminist women �often seem unaware of what they are doing to manliness when they work to support themselves� or when they insist that �people should be hired and promoted on merit, regardless of sex.�

As the weaker sex, he explains to the Post, women are �not in a position to ask for something directly. They�re either obliged to smile a lot and persuade, or make a scene.�

Then there�s this, from the book: �To resist rape a woman needs more than martial arts and more than the police; she needs a certain ladylike modesty enabling her to take offense at unwanted encroachment.�

Guy,
I agree manliness != misogyny. However, idiots like Mansfield make people associate it with misogyny. As evidenced by the statements above. In Mansfield's world, the only women raped prior to suffrage were prositiutes.

|7.18.06 @ 9:03AM|#

"The 'cute when angry' thing was more odd because it was about women getting angry at being raped."

Is that the actual context in the book? I thought Young was randomly pulling appalling quotes.

|7.18.06 @ 9:07AM|#

Why do the server squirrels like Marcvs more than me? :-(

|7.18.06 @ 9:13AM|#

Huh. Ms. Young discusses this trivial publication by some professor from some backwater school in some small town in New England but fails utterly to mention the Maddoxian opus, The Alphabet of Manliness.

Can it be any coincidence that Rand-buddy Mickey Spillane died as this article was published? Real men everywhere are mourning. Right now, Mike Hammer is beating the tar out of someone.

|7.18.06 @ 9:17AM|#

fails utterly to mention the Maddoxian opus, The Alphabet of Manliness.

PL,

Have you had a chance to read it yet? It pains me to say that it's not very funny. I dunno why. I was, in Maddox's honour, impressively erect when I purchased the tome, but it's unfortuantely a bit rubbish.

I'm sticking to Real Ultimate Power.

|7.18.06 @ 9:28AM|#

Mo,

I agree with you totally... This Mansfield bloke deserves all the tarring and feathering that can be fit into a work-week. It's arses like him that give normal guys a bad rep.

|7.18.06 @ 9:29AM|#

Mark VIII,

Actually, I did try to read it at a book store a week or two ago. I read a couple of funny bits, but, overall, I felt that it wasn't up to the high standards that we expect from Maddox. It's his first book, though, and I know he'll do better the next time out. I think he might've gotten too focused on the alphabet/manliness concept. He probably should've just written a bunch of random essays on things that pissed him off. That's where he's great. Still, good or not, Maddox deserves more respect than some Harvard flunky :)

Jennifer|7.18.06 @ 9:30AM|#

In interviews, he has suggested that the wife should earn no more than a third of the couple�s joint income and do no less than two-thirds of the housework.

Yesterday I cleaned up some coffee that I spilled. My housework quota for the week is done.

|7.18.06 @ 9:33AM|#

Maddox deserves more respect than some Harvard flunky

Amen.

Jennifer|7.18.06 @ 9:39AM|#

�To resist rape a woman needs more than martial arts and more than the police; she needs a certain ladylike modesty enabling her to take offense at unwanted encroachment.�

So rape victims get raped because they didn't get offended enough?

|7.18.06 @ 9:40AM|#

Definition of traditional manliness- being needed by others while not being needy of others. I am not entirely manly.

|7.18.06 @ 9:40AM|#

"In interviews, he has suggested that the wife should earn no more than a third of the couple�s joint income and do no less than two-thirds of the housework.

Yesterday I cleaned up some coffee that I spilled. My housework quota for the week is done."

Jennifer, if you make the money more power to you. I would love to meet a woman who made more money than I did and spend my days at home vacuming, drinking vodka tonics and listening to old blues records. As long as no one inflicts children into the situation, what a life.

|7.18.06 @ 9:42AM|#

When the talk turns to masculinity, I usually just pick up my rifle and leave to go hunting.

|7.18.06 @ 9:45AM|#

Rifle? I use a bowie knife and my teeth.

Jennifer, you're cute when you're angry ;)

|7.18.06 @ 9:46AM|#

Definition of traditional manliness- being needed by others while not being needy of others. I am not entirely manly.

Incorrect.

You are a man, if you have a moustache and it doesn't look silly. Once you have proved yourself to be Zeus-like, in mind and body, then you are ready to tame a moustache.

If you are not a man, but are foolish enough to attempt lip-hai, then you end up looking like one of those pussy New York ironic rockers who spend more time choosing hair gel than writing tunes.

Man I HHHAAATTTEEE the Strokes.

In fact, the Strokes are responsible for the undermining of men and the 'way of the testicle'.

Jennifer|7.18.06 @ 9:48AM|#

Jennifer, if you make the money more power to you.

Nope, he makes more money that I do these days. It's just that he cares about details like how high the dirty-clothes pile is, whereas I only care whether or not I have something clean to wear. If I think something's messy I'll clean it up. But I don't reach that point until long, long after he does.

If dirt were alcohol, Jeff would be the guy who's never touched the stuff before and gets fabulously drunk off half a beer, whereas I'm the alcoholic who can drink five six-packs and not even notice a buzz.

It's ironic because (and forgive me, y'all, I don't mean to become one of those annoying posters who turns every comment thread into a discussion of her own blog), but just last night I made a post criticizing a Ms. Magazine article for yelling at men who don't do enough around the house. My point is that the person who does the housework should not be decided based on gender, but based on who actually cares whether or not the knick-knacks have been dusted.

Damn lucky for me I didn't read the article about this piece of crap first.

Dan T.|7.18.06 @ 9:51AM|#

I have this theory that men are basically on their way out. At one point, society needed people who were aggressive and rugged to catch the food, protect the family from wild animals and build things. Now, not so much, and in the future probably not at all.

No doubt people have noticed that women are getting better at things traditionally done by men (business, politics, sports, even warfare) while men really aren�t getting better at �female� things. Women now represent a majority of students in higher learning, including law and medical schools while men have been assigned meaningless diversions such as video games, spectator sports, and internet porn to keep us busy. Otherwise too many of us would be running around killing people, stealing things, starting wars, and what not.

Manly men were once needed and important. Now they�re not, and everybody knows it. Best case, we laugh at them. Worst case, they get elected to important governmental offices and start killing people and blowing stuff up.

|7.18.06 @ 9:51AM|#

Jennifer it is good that you two feed each other's compulsions. I live with a female Felix Unger. Completely organized and neat. I am of course a complete guy and Oscar Madison. My disorganization feeds her need to organize. It works great and we get a neat house over it. I no longer live like a large animal.

|7.18.06 @ 9:53AM|#

Manliness is like being cool. You don't worry if people think you're manly, you just know you are. Also, you don't shrink like a daisy and write an easily mocked tract about it, you just go about your business and don't apologize for it.

If Manfield was that manly, he wouldn't take a cushy job with tenure at Harvard. He'd go out and earn a living with some real risk to it.

|7.18.06 @ 9:54AM|#

(John Wayne never had to tell us he didn?t want to sound like a wimp.)

He also didn't write books with absurd prescriptions for "manliness." I've no idea what Prof. Mansfield looks like, but I'm picturing Casper Milquetoast.

Ms. Young makes me want to stop at the bookstore on my way home and thumb through this book (which I'd otherwise never have heard of) just for a laugh.

Jennifer|7.18.06 @ 9:56AM|#

compulsions

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

|7.18.06 @ 9:59AM|#

John DeWitt,

The whole anounce your "manliness" thing. I always thing about guys who fought in World War II and shot Nazis when they were on fire and crazy things like that. Somehow, those guys never felt the need to write a book talking about how manly they are. I agree that I bet this guy is probably about Casper Milquetoast.

|7.18.06 @ 10:01AM|#

Compulsion

"An irresistible impulse to act, regardless of the rationality of the motivation: ?The compulsion to protect the powerful from the discomfort of public disclosure feeds further abuse and neglect"

That is what I think it means and what I meant it as. It is good to be with someone who feeds and allows you to do the things, like allow the house to be dirty or kept maticulously neat, you can't help but doing.

|7.18.06 @ 10:02AM|#

I agree that TAOM is a tad uneven, but there were parts that had me rolling. The bit describing proper headbanging? Awesome.

Jennifer|7.18.06 @ 10:02AM|#

I am woman, hear me roar
in numbers too great too ignore
you can kiss my ass if you want me to cle-ean

|7.18.06 @ 10:03AM|#

I agree with John and the others; if this guy weren't really nervous about his own manhood, he wouldn't have bothered with this book. Manliness is like honesty, wealth, beauty, sex, and deep religious faith: if you've got it, you don't have to brag about it.

|7.18.06 @ 10:04AM|#

"My point is that the person who does the housework should not be decided based on gender, but based on who actually cares whether or not the knick-knacks have been dusted."

Sounds remarkably like a domestic application of Coase's Theorem. Whoever gets the greates benefit should bear the costs.

Unfortunately, when reality intervenes, no amount of reasoning is going to stop someone from complaining that his/her partner isn't doing as much of the housekeeping as she/he ought to be.

Jennifer|7.18.06 @ 10:05AM|#

"An irresistible impulse to act, regardless of the rationality of the motivation: ?The compulsion to protect the powerful from the discomfort of public disclosure feeds further abuse and neglect" That is what I think it means and what I meant it as. It is good to be with someone who feeds and allows you to do the things, like allow the house to be dirty or kept maticulously neat, you can't help but doing.

Except for the parts about "irresistible" and "can't help" and "allows"--oh, never mind. Seriously, John, between your spelling and your logic you sometimes brings me to my knees in awe (in a thoroughly non-sexual way).

|7.18.06 @ 10:06AM|#

At one point, society needed people who were aggressive and rugged to catch the food, protect the family from wild animals and build things.

I dunno though.

I think part of the problem is that it's always suggested manliness is inherently useful - i.e to get food, build a house, fight, protect etcetc.

I disagree. I think the fundamental fun of being a man is doing dumb shit for no end whatsoever. How does climbing everest help anyone? How does walking to the North Pole fundamentally change things? What's the point of wrestling?

And, the fact that men are morons, is also demonstrated in love and sentiment. I don't approve of sensible expressions of sentiment - not me, REAL MEN go in for Knight-Errant type stupidity; roaming around the land with a lyre, singing, plucking flowers and doing MORE DUMB SHIT to impress the ladies.

It is my capacity to be an arseclown that I don't want taken away from me.

Sure, I'll do the washing up and I'll pretend to be interested in the names of our future offspring, but I am and forever will be an Idiot!

|7.18.06 @ 10:12AM|#

Chuck Norris once ate a hardcover copy "Manliness". He then regurgitated a clone of John Wayne which scared prof. Mansfield to death. In hell Satan man rapes Mansfield ever night and tells him he looks "cute" .

Jennifer|7.18.06 @ 10:15AM|#

Real men think housework is the single most important thing to lok for in a woman.

I've got a question about that whole "offense protects women from rape" bit, though--if the rapist were a real man, wouldn't he be above caring about piddling little things like whether some fluffy little woman took offense at his manly presence?

the other Mark|7.18.06 @ 10:18AM|#

If the rapist were a real man, he'd be raping bobcats.

|7.18.06 @ 10:19AM|#

"Yesterday I cleaned up some coffee that I spilled. My housework quota for the week is done."

All the world loves a cliche'.

|7.18.06 @ 10:19AM|#

Jennifer,

I will type slowly and do my best to explain what was just a throw away line. I meant it to be an hyperbole. Of course you are not compelled to be messy or neat. The point was that it feels that way sometimes. Therefore it is nice to be with someone who is tolerant of that. The use of the word compulsion was not meant to be taken literally. It was a subtle point and not worth all of this explanation. I guess it just didn't come through well in pixels.

As far as my spelling, it is not my spelling, it is my typing. Ask me to spell a word and it is not an issue. My mind unfortunately goes faster than my fingers.

As far as my logic, sorry you don't follow it, but I hardly think it justifies a patronizing personal insult.

|7.18.06 @ 10:19AM|#

Lass, it's no coincidence that therapist combines the words "the" and "rapist".

|7.18.06 @ 10:21AM|#

"brings me to my knees in awe (in a thoroughly non-sexual way)."

Ditto.

Jennifer|7.18.06 @ 10:22AM|#

As far as my logic, sorry you don't follow it, but I hardly think it justifies a patronizing personal insult.

I know, but we women are just so goddamned emotional, you know? And without my man here to keep me in line God knows what I might do next.

|7.18.06 @ 10:23AM|#

As far as my logic, sorry you don't follow it, but I hardly think it justifies a patronizing personal insult.

Hey John,

If you were a REAL MAN, you would realise that logic is for big fat pussies and tell Jennifer to shut the hell up and go fix you a pork-chop.

|7.18.06 @ 10:23AM|#

Jennifer,

I never meant anything to be sexist. You are no more or less compelled to be messy or neat than I am. Sorry to offend.

|7.18.06 @ 10:25AM|#

"As far as my logic, sorry you don't follow it, but I hardly think it justifies a patronizing personal insult."

That's just the way she is. I was debating the issue of second hand smoke and she started going off on me about how my wife must have left me because getting fucked by a straw man was chaifing fer legs. Some folks are just assholes.

Jennifer|7.18.06 @ 10:30AM|#

I was debating the issue of second hand smoke and she started going off on me about how my wife must have left me because getting fucked by a straw man was chaifing fer legs.

Oh, you mean that thread where you repeatedly referred to secondhand smoke as a "toxic cloud" and then claimed I said your allergic wife should have to spend her entire existence in an indoor bubble? My female emotions are no match for your rugged manly logic.

I totally loved the post where you compared secondhand smoke to bullets flying through the air. Logic makes me so hot.

|7.18.06 @ 10:32AM|#

Ken-

Maybe the book was written by Alan Sokal?

|7.18.06 @ 10:34AM|#

If the rapist were a real man, he'd be raping bobcats.

Nah..he'd be boinking hippos.

Take that river creature!!

Jennifer|7.18.06 @ 10:41AM|#

Seriously: I've always despised those "all men are rapists" Dworkinite feminists, but what the hell goes through the mind of a man who would say something like "women need to feel offended to protect themselves from rape"?

I could sort of understand if a woman said such a thing--in that case, I'd figure it's a woman who is afraid of being raped and makes herself feel better by telling herself "Well, I needn't worry about it since I don't behave a certain way." (On a similar note, I read once that female jurors were more likely than male jurors to believe a scantily dressed rape victim was 'asking for it'--again, the women tell themselves "I don't dress that way so I am safe.")

But a man? That is severely creepy.

|7.18.06 @ 10:46AM|#

Nah..he'd be boinking hippos.

And leaving them languorous and deeply satisfied...

|7.18.06 @ 10:50AM|#

On a similar note, I read once that female jurors were more likely than male jurors to believe a scantily dressed rape victim was 'asking for it'--again, the women tell themselves "I don't dress that way so I am safe.")

Jennifer it is absolutely true that women jurors are harder on rape victims. But, it is not because they think she was asking for it. It is because female jurors are more likly to believe that the victim consented and did something foolish and is now crying rape after buyers remorse. Men, generally, have been indocrinated into political correctness way to much to ever have that thought. Women for some reason don't seem to think women are above doing something like that.

the other Mark|7.18.06 @ 10:50AM|#

That's just the way she is. I was debating the issue of second hand smoke and she started going off on me about how my wife must have left me because getting fucked by a straw man was chaifing fer legs. Some folks are just assholes.

Are you sure you're not a woman? You'll never be raped, what with that magnificent offendedness.

|7.18.06 @ 10:51AM|#

Being manly is like playing The Game. If you think about it, you lose.

Jennifer|7.18.06 @ 10:53AM|#

Thanks, John.

I am not saying any of y'all have anything in common with a rapist, but seriously, guys--any insight into what would make a man in this era claim that a rape victim is ultimately in control of what happens to her based on her attitude? (And I'm talking about genuine rape here, not women with buyer's remorse or women who enjoy sex in the Dominique/Howard style.)

|7.18.06 @ 10:56AM|#

any insight into what would make a man in this era claim that a rape victim is ultimately in control of what happens to her based on her attitude?

The fact that he's an intellectual fucknut? He's not from this era? He gets scared around women? He's a homo? No sense of humour? Anal retention?

All possibles.

|7.18.06 @ 11:05AM|#

Television?

|7.18.06 @ 11:06AM|#

any insight into what would make a man in this era claim that a rape victim is ultimately in control of what happens to her based on her attitude?

Remember, Jennifer, this is some flunky from Harvard. He doesn't need to make sense.

|7.18.06 @ 11:09AM|#

I'VE CRACKED IT!!!

Drum roll please......

He's related to Hemingway!

Ha, it's almost too easy.....

|7.18.06 @ 11:33AM|#

How manly is it to run around every day obsessing about whether you're a weenie or not?

Methinks Maddox doth protesteth far too damn much....

|7.18.06 @ 11:37AM|#

tzs,

In a way, I agree. Maddox isn't about "manliness". He's really about id. Id unleashed. Id freed to protect Maddox from his insecurities. All for our entertainment.

Freud is a manly therapist, incidentally.

|7.18.06 @ 11:39AM|#

Mark VIII-AMEN! Now, to find a lyre and visit my woman. Perhaps along the way, I shall conquer a windmill in her name.

Warren|7.18.06 @ 11:42AM|#

I came to accept my distinctly un-manly dorkish ways years ago. I'm such a dork I think Roger Moore was the better Bond. Not that I undervalue manliness. I would aspire to the manliness of Cary Grant (the old acidhead), if I had the first clue. Alas, all I can manage is to sit here in my underwear, and make snarky comments to fellow libertarians. Later I'm going to look for free porn. Then I'll start drinking to take away the pain.

I would totally take care of the house and raise the kids if I could catch me one of those corporate power women to bring home the bacon. Wouldn't damage my male ego in the least. On the contrary, I'd feel way more manly. I'd be great at it too, good food and pleasant surroundings are high on my priorities. Having failed in my youth to find a woman to do these things for me, I was forced to acquire domestic skills. And after twenty years of practice, I think I've gotten fairly accomplished at them.

|7.18.06 @ 11:58AM|#

I think Roger Moore was the better Bond.

Warren, I'll send you a Y chromosome. You clearly need it after making that objectively incorrect statement.

Roger Moore was the better Simon Templar, however.

|7.18.06 @ 12:13PM|#

�To resist rape a woman needs more than martial arts and more than the police; she needs a certain ladylike modesty enabling her to take offense at unwanted encroachment.�

Yes, because we all know that modesty offended is much more effective at stopping a rape than, say, a self-loading handgun stoked with 14 rounds of jacketed hollow points.

Mansfield is an ass.

|7.18.06 @ 12:16PM|#

And I suspect he's the kind of pedantic douchewit who would probably recoil in horror and squeal in fear if he were even in the same room as a handgun.

|7.18.06 @ 12:18PM|#

Alas, all I can manage is to sit here in my underwear, and make snarky comments to fellow libertarians. Later I'm going to look for free porn. Then I'll start drinking to take away the pain.

Living the dream dude.

Lving the dream.

|7.18.06 @ 12:26PM|#

I think manly is good, great,fantastic.
If it's within my definition-which would be a man that doesn't whine when he gets a cold,has a setback at work...etc.
A guy that isn't so fasticious that he can't wash off a dropped steak and throw it back on the grill.

Men that are emasculated by women who make more money than them aren't manly-they're losers.

Men that do more housework and childcare get more sex- study by John Gottman. Why? Because your wife or S/O likes you a lot more. And very true in practice-I like and feel far more affection for my husband than most of the women I talk to. Actually it's bizarre how little sex is going on-and yes,women do sit around and talk about this stuff.

|7.18.06 @ 12:55PM|#

Mansfield?

Oh yeah, the same guy who thinks that a woosy fratboy with a Texas lisp who spent most of his life living off of daddy's money and playing at being a cowboy is somehow "manlier" than a 6'4" war hero with a deep booming voice, square jaw and distinguished public service career.

What a partisan idiot.

|7.18.06 @ 1:07PM|#

I'm not sure I'd rank Bush high on any "manliness" scale, either. He comes across more like the sit-com interpretation of a man. However, I think he probably does have more "manliness" than Kerry, notwithstanding Kerry's record for killing Vietnamese people.

You know, I really dislike all of these politicians. Could we just start over? You know, hit the reset button?

|7.18.06 @ 1:19PM|#

Pro Libertate:

I don't think there's anyone here who would disagree with you on that!

|7.18.06 @ 1:21PM|#

Pro,

Kerry killed any manliness he might have had after he was pictured in the cyclist gear. Yeah, I know cycling at its highest levels is a brutal sport in which only those who have an addiction to pain and endorphins can succeed. I would never question the manliness of the guys like Lance Armstrong or the guy who is riding in this year's Tour de France while needing a hip replacement. That said, the ordinary yuppie in his cyclist gear out holding up traffic on a busy street, just looks gay.

I think you have to give the current Bush some credit on the manliness scale for flying fighter planes. I know everyone makes fun of that because it was the Air National Guard, but jet fighters in the 1960s and 1970s were deathtraps. It took a lot of balls to get into them. Beyond that, I agree that it doesn't look to intimidating these days. Other than banging a lot of women, which anyone in a position of power could do, Clinton wasn't particularly manly either. I think you have to give Bush I a free pass for life for having once landed planes on aircraft careers and flown said planes into harm's way. Reagan, while not unmanly, was more like your kindly grandfather. Good for taking on the 12 year old down the street who was bullying you when you were 10, but not exactly John Wayne either. As far as Carter, "killer rabbit" pretty much answers that question. For my money the two most "manly" Presidents in the last 60 years were Truman and Eisenhower. Truman was a captain in the artillery in some of the worst fighting in the trenches in WW I and volunteered to go again in 1941, when he was in his 50s, only to be refused. Eisenhower of course managed to lead some of the most egotistical and "manly" people in history. You can't be in charge of people like Patton, Montgomery and Bradley while fighting the Nazis without being pretty manly.

|7.18.06 @ 1:32PM|#

Yeah, George W. Bush is manly alright, manly enough to grope the leader of Germany. Let's hear it for all the manly men to understand that a woman's body was made for some manly handling...

|7.18.06 @ 1:38PM|#

[to avoid rape, a woman] needs a certain ladylike modesty enabling her to take offense at unwanted encroachment

Is that a .38 or 9mm sort of "ladylike modesty"?

|7.18.06 @ 1:40PM|#

"Yeah, George W. Bush is manly alright, manly enough to grope the leader of Germany. Let's hear it for all the manly men to understand that a woman's body was made for some manly handling..."

What? When did that happen? I think the most powerful man in the world molesting the leader of Germany might have made the papers somewhere. Since you are so shocked by this, if it did happen, I am sure you are equally angry about Bill Clinton getting blowjobs for twenty something dingbats in the oval office.

VM|7.18.06 @ 1:49PM|#

John: moreso, actually.

but nice attempt to deflect the issue. hey! 20 years ago! someone did something worse! nevermind the transgressions. he's gawd fearing. family values! someone else was worse!!!!

Did you work on star wars when you were in the mary. um. army?

what a fucking tool. "Bill Clinton" defense. Great. That's like Pol Pot using the "stalin was worse" excuse. fucking tool.

|7.18.06 @ 1:49PM|#

John:

That's a perk of the office. You don't grope world leaders, you pork the interns. That's what they're there for.

|7.18.06 @ 1:54PM|#

When the fuck did Bush ever grope world leaders? Please send a link because I never heard anything about it.

|7.18.06 @ 1:57PM|#

VM,

I love loosers like you who throw insults our anonomously in a forum where you know you would never have to answer for it. It must be great to be able to call people names when you wouldn't have the balls to look someone in the eye letalone utter an insult if they were actually there.

|7.18.06 @ 1:57PM|#

VM,

I love loosers like you who throw insults out anonomously in a forum where you know you would never have to answer for it. It must be great to be able to call people names when you wouldn't have the balls to look someone in the eye letalone utter an insult if they were actually there.

Jennifer|7.18.06 @ 2:06PM|#

The level of manliness John has introduced to this thread is more than a li'l ole woman like me can handle.

|7.18.06 @ 2:07PM|#

Okay,
I can't help myself, but the more posts I see from John, the more he comes to resemble a rightwing Jersey McJones. Same shortfuse, incoherent rambling, spelling errors, gaps in logic, etc. But yet there seems to be something endearing hidden deep down...Anyone else see it that way, or is it just me?

VM|7.18.06 @ 2:08PM|#

While it's true that we "loosers" (more loose than what? a necktie at 5pm?) can't stand up to you internet tough guys - agreed. But you gotta realize that the stupid "gotcha" questions that miss the boat on what most around here feel.

pssst

But you are a tough one, I'll give you that. You were special forces, right? Oooh! You were the famed Agent Orange, I'll bet! You can kick Chuck Norris's ass! Jack Bauer fetches (feltches?) your laundry, I'll bet! YEA! Forsooth! The man with panzered buns!

And you're right again: since that unfortunate incident with the rubber cement, the Noam Chomsky blow up doll, the combine, and Martha Raye (denture wearer), it's true - no balls here. sigh.

That's why I have to go after such a manly man such as yourself. I mean, that lithograph of you tearing up San Juan Hill! wow! It's good Herrik hasn't seen it!

Amazing.

drifting off with images of John flexing his muscles with his flintlock rifle from his service days held proudly erect......

|7.18.06 @ 2:12PM|#

loosers

ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH!

|7.18.06 @ 2:15PM|#

Sounds remarkably like a domestic application of Coase's Theorem. Whoever gets the greates[t] benefit should bear the costs.

I tried making that point with my wife in connection with where the toilet seat should be left. You'll be shocked to hear that she found the argument utterly invalid.

|7.18.06 @ 2:23PM|#

After thinking awhile, I have concluded that the quality Mansfield should have praised is courage, which both genders exhibit and which is universally and justifiable admired. The problem with Mansfield and his ilk is that they takes an admirable quality -- courage - and assign it exclusively to males, thereby making all women cowards by default. Mansfield in particular advocates that women have to be timid dimwits in private or men, those poor, fragile babies, will not be attracted to us. That particular setup seems to me, anyway, to severely undercut his thesis on manliness being equal to courage, but hey, I'm just a dame.

|7.18.06 @ 2:27PM|#

I love loosers [sic] like you who throw insults our anonomously [sic] in a forum where you know you would never have to answer for it.

Good thing John would never post anonymously. He puts his name right out there, so his neighbors, his wife, and his boss can see it and hold him accountable for what he posts here.

|7.18.06 @ 2:28PM|#

I will ask it one more time, when did George Bush grope Angela Merkel? No one has ever produced any proof of that. Lamar makes what is a pretty shocking accusation and my response is "when the hell did that happen?" and I am the nut? I guess you people believe anything you hear. I forgot the rules, "if you don't like a political figure, all accusations made against such figure are assumed to be true and only a wing nut would ask for proof."

VM,

Calling people tools and whatever other juvenile bullshit you want to throw out is beneath contempt. It is my fault for ever responding to such crap. For all I know you are special forces guy who could strangle me. Whatever or whoever the hell you are, you are still a coward and a jerk.

|7.18.06 @ 2:31PM|#

"The level of manliness John has introduced to this thread is more than a li'l ole woman like me can handle."

If Jennifer suddenly puts a wrist to her head, and gracefully faints, I call dibs on catching her.

|7.18.06 @ 2:37PM|#

I haven't read the thread yet. Has anyone else pointed out that "Haunted Houses of Machismo" would be a great name for a band?

Or maybe just the title of an album by Santa Esmeralda.

|7.18.06 @ 2:37PM|#

I should also add that, like Jersey McJones, John takes unconscionable amounts of abuse and keeps on ticking.

|7.18.06 @ 2:59PM|#

John, here you go. Notice how uncomfortable Merkel is?

http://www.crooksandliars.com/posts/2006/07/18/presidential-groping/

|7.18.06 @ 3:11PM|#

Is this about the difference between Metrosexuals and Retrosexuals?

Got this list of retrosexual qualities from http://www.frizzensparks.com/archives/000104.html

The Code
A Retrosexual, no matter what the women insists, PAYS FOR THE GODDAMN DATE.

A Retrosexual opens doors for a lady. Even for the ones that fit that term only because they are female.

A Retrosexual DEALS with shit. Be it a flat tire, break-in into your home, or a natural disaster, you FUCKING DEAL WITH IT.

A Retrosexual not only eats red meat, he often kills it himself.

A Retrosexual doesn't worry about living to be 90. It's not how long you live, but how well. If you're 90 years old and still smoking cigars and drinking, I salute you.

A Retrosexual does not use more hair or skin products than a woman. Women have several supermarket aisles of stuff. Retrosexuals need an endcap (possibly 2 endcaps if you include shaving goods.)

A Retrosexual does not dress in clothes from Hot Topic when he's 30 years old (Yes, Contagion, I'm lookin' at you)

A Retrosexual should know how to properly kill stuff (or people) if need be. This falls under the "dealing with shit" portion of The Code.

A Retrosexual watches no TV show with "Queer" in the title.

A Retrosexual does not let neighbors fuck up rooms in his house on national TV.

A Retrosexual should not give up excessive amounts of manliness for poontang. Some is inevitable, but major re-invention of yourself will only lead to you becoming a froo-froo little puss, and in the long run, she ain't worth it.

A Retrosexual is allowed to seek professional help for major mental stress such as drug/alcohol addiction, death of your entire family in a freak treechipper accident, favorite sports team being moved to a different city etc. You are NOT allowed to see a shrink because Daddy didn't pay you enough attention. Daddy was busy DEALING WITH SHIT. When you fucked up, he DEALT with you. Buck up pussy.

A Retrosexual will have at least one outfit in his wardrobe designed to conceal himself from prey.

A Retrosexual knows how to tie a fucking windsor knot when wearing a tie (There, Contagion, that made up for the Hot Topic crack)

A Retrosexual does not strip naked, get into a sweat lodge, and bang on drums to bond with other guys. That shit is gay.
However dressing in kilts, banging on drums around a campfire, and drinking heavily is just fine.

A Retrosexual should have at least one good wound he can brag about getting. (If not, he can borrow some from my friend Daniel, who has enough
wound stories to last for 3 lifetimes)

A Retrosexual knows how to use a basic set of tools. If you can't hammer a damn nail, or drill a straight hole, practice in secret until you can or be rightfully ridiculed for the wuss you be.

A Retrosexual's asshole is an exit ramp on the road of life. Ladies, contrary to what Cosmo says, spontaneously sticking a finger back there is a good way to be launched off the bed (or if Hooters hotwings have been recently consumed, lose a finger). Make you a deal, we won't mess with yours unless you want us to, and you won't mess with ours period.

A Retrosexual will buy feminine hygine products if he has to, but only under protest. This falls under unpleasant things you have to fucking DEAL with. Get some Hagen-Daas while your at it.

A Retrosexual gives a lady his seat on the bus/subway/etc.

A Retrosexual does not order an apple martini at the bar. A Martini has fucking gin and vermouth in it dammit. And maybe an olive. In fact, why not just get a beer and a shot of scotch??

A Retrosexual knows that owning a gun is not a sign that you are riddled with fear, or are trying to make up for a small penis. Massage and cunnilingus skills are the way to make up for a small penis, guns are fucking TOOLS and are often essential to DEAL with shit. Plus it's just damnned fun to shoot.

|7.18.06 @ 3:23PM|#

Okay Lamar,

I will admit that is freaking bizare. I hate touchy people. I don't think Bush was groping in a sexual way as much as just being touchy like some people are. Whatever man points he got for flying planes, he looses for being a toucher, as the pictures of him touching people's bald head on Republic of T. I can't stand people who invade other people's space.

|7.18.06 @ 4:19PM|#

Ah, the unwanted massage. I've gotten that one before. It's just wrong.

Unless the U.S. and Germany have opted for much closer ties. Much closer. Like Thatcher-Reagan closer. Whoa.

|7.18.06 @ 5:49PM|#

looses? Do you need to be slapped with a dictionary?

|7.18.06 @ 8:40PM|#

*Mansfield and his ilk*

I'm going to drink, just in case.

|7.18.06 @ 9:01PM|#

In a 1997 op-ed for The Wall Street Journal, Mansfield warned that "the protective element of manliness is endangered by women having equal access to jobs outside the home" and that nonfeminist women "often seem unaware of what they are doing to manliness when they work to support themselves"

What Mansfield failed to note, here, is that those aw-shucks manly men only trot out that "protective element" to petite blondes or Asian chicks. The majority of women can take a flying leap and starve, as far as they're concerned. In that case, Manny, hope you don't mind if I work for a living.

Jadagul|7.18.06 @ 10:18PM|#

Seamus: If you want to have fun, try showing her this.

|7.19.06 @ 12:38AM|#

"A Retrosexual does not let neighbors fuck up rooms in his house on national TV."

Or his automobile.

I have never been able to withstand "Overhaulin" for more than about three minutes at a time, but I would actually pay to see the episode where the "lucky overhaulee" grabs that chubby homo Chip Foose by the neck and says, "You bastard! You've ruined my car! I can't drive that thing now, somebody I know might see me in it."

|7.19.06 @ 1:51AM|#

To what degree is it manly to get upset by taunts or even just the negative opinions of others? We're taught as children, "Sticks and stones" but in truth a rare thing in nature is an adult who does not get at least a little irked (more often he ignites) by insults or negative opinions. Where's the rational, mature, and healthy minded stoical middle ground between childish whinging and whining about what other people say and socio-pathy, which is not a mature option either? Is it a middle ground or is the more manly point on the scale much closer to sociopathy (at what point does stoical manliness step off into socio-pathy)?
When does deflecting criticism of oneself with a self-deprecating joke become not healthy security but actually display a "lack" of self esteem? Or do you think this is never the case?

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Jennifer|7.18.06 @ 9:30AM|#

Jennifer|7.18.06 @ 9:39AM|#

Jennifer|7.18.06 @ 9:48AM|#

Dan T.|7.18.06 @ 9:51AM|#

Jennifer|7.18.06 @ 9:56AM|#

Jennifer|7.18.06 @ 10:02AM|#

Jennifer|7.18.06 @ 10:05AM|#

Jennifer|7.18.06 @ 10:15AM|#

the other Mark|7.18.06 @ 10:18AM|#

Jennifer|7.18.06 @ 10:22AM|#

Jennifer|7.18.06 @ 10:30AM|#

Jennifer|7.18.06 @ 10:41AM|#

the other Mark|7.18.06 @ 10:50AM|#

Jennifer|7.18.06 @ 10:53AM|#

Warren|7.18.06 @ 11:42AM|#

VM|7.18.06 @ 1:49PM|#

Jennifer|7.18.06 @ 2:06PM|#

VM|7.18.06 @ 2:08PM|#

Jadagul|7.18.06 @ 10:18PM|#

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