New at Reason

David Weigel | June 13, 2006

Cathy Young warns vitriolitic critics of Islam of the impact their ill-chosen rhetoric can have.

Comments

|6.13.06 @ 7:29AM|#

Of course there is a moderate Islam. You can find it in peaceful Senegal, or in Malasya, who has a woman as director of their most important bank, or in India and Bangladesh (where the a Muslim founded the Grameen bank). Even in the Arab emirates...

And I fail to see the reason of Fallaci's anger to the Somali street peddlers, who, while they need an orientation about the use of W.C. (as Fallaci's grandparents needed in their day), are basically earning an honest living.

|6.13.06 @ 7:58AM|#

And yet it is her criticism of Islam that has her on trial in Italy right now, not her racism.

Which then is the bigger problem: the racism that infuses some of the more vitriolic criticism of Islam? Or the blindness that infuses the more obtuse defense of Islam? I don't know, but I suspect the latter.

But are there not also moderate critics of Islam? Some do not think so. I have been written off as a racist by some long-time friends, who always appreciated my criticisms of Christianity, because I've dared criticize Islam. Oddly enough, these same people know nary a Muslim, while I work and play and debate with Muslims from Pakisatn to Nigeria.

And with a bit of liquor in me and a full bladder, I'm more inclined than any Somali vendor to pee in the street.

|6.13.06 @ 8:34AM|#

Cathy Young writes very good articles when she takes a stand.

Well done!

|6.13.06 @ 10:07AM|#

A "moderate" Muslim is one that will allow the infidels to die of old age - rather than putting them to the sword immediately.

It's still "Submit or die", just a matter of timing.

|6.13.06 @ 10:18AM|#

"And yet it is her criticism of Islam that has her on trial in Italy right now, not her racism.

Neither should be actionable for a trial in and of themselves, but welcome to Europe. At least, in the US, I can still criticize a religion and not go on trial for it.

Yikes, imagine if "racism" was a prosecutable offense here. Yikes, we would instantly take the #1 spot for incarceration rates.

Oh, wait.

|6.13.06 @ 10:24AM|#

A "moderate" Muslim is one that will allow the infidels to die of old age - rather than putting them to the sword immediately.

It's still "Submit or die", just a matter of timing.

What the hell does that mean, Ken? And how is it different than how evangelicals tolerate Jews until they either convert or die at the raputure? If they tolerate me until I pass on of natural causes, then I have no beef with anyone. It's the ones that get into my grill*, that piss me off.

* This applies to all religions. I'm looking at you Hare Krishnas.

|6.13.06 @ 10:26AM|#

I wish everyone could meet my buddy, Waki Paki.
He's not only peaceful, he's a riot.

|6.13.06 @ 10:38AM|#

A "moderate" Muslim is one that will allow the infidels to die of old age - rather than putting them to the sword immediately.

What the hell is this supposed to mean? That we should be pissed at Muslims because they haven't found a way to keep us alive forever?

|6.13.06 @ 10:52AM|#

These are ugly words, based on the bizarre assumption that the West must respond to religious intolerance in many Muslim countries with religious intolerance of our own.

Given the historical record its not really bizarre; it is pretty much the norm. Not that I agree with the norm. It is religious tolerance (unfortunately) that is bizarre.

____________________________

I would imagine, given the ill-health of the Italian economy, its rapidly declining "indigenous" population, etc. that there is a lot of anxiety in Italy about the demographic and cultural changes resulting from immigration from North Africa, etc.

|6.13.06 @ 10:54AM|#

While not exciting, I actually found this (and others from the conference) to be interesting, in that it is the latest charicterization of how some of the Dem '08 hopefuls are reading their strengths with the faithful and how certain Dem organizers wish to push things in '06 and '08.

The visit to the TBA site was also elucidating as to the group's rather trite approach to attracting more support/strength. The "What is a progressive?" video was humorous for its uber-generic tone and bizarre editting. The "we are Robin Hood" line was a bit of a window into the progressive core.

|6.13.06 @ 10:54AM|#

"Yikes, imagine if "racism" was a prosecutable offense here. Yikes, we would instantly take the #1 spot for incarceration rates."


Just yesterday I read that 1/3 of Saudi prisoners are foreigners, and of those a goodly number are routined beheaded.

L

|6.13.06 @ 11:13AM|#

Phileleutherus Lipsiensis,

At last, Carthage has her revenge.

|6.13.06 @ 11:44AM|#

Pro Libertate,

Heh.

|6.13.06 @ 12:08PM|#

That'll teach you bastards to salt our fields!

|6.13.06 @ 1:50PM|#

A "moderate" Muslim is one that will allow the infidels to die of old age - rather than putting them to the sword immediately - UNLESS you are an apostate or blaspheme, then it's off with your head. Otherwise you can live out your life as a dihimi, just pay a bit more tax and recognize your status as a last-class citizen.

|6.13.06 @ 2:35PM|#

Descendants of Aeneas! I'm watching you. Making your lives a living hell.

|6.13.06 @ 3:35PM|#

Fallaci hates fags, too, but I bet she'd be a hoot to get drunk with.

|6.13.06 @ 3:57PM|#

Adriana: So selling counterfeit goods is "basically earning an honest living"?

She claims, in a rather blatant distortion of history, that since its birth Islam has had a unique propensity among all religions to slaughter or enslave "all those who live differently."

How is that a distortion? For roughly the first 900 years of its existence (about 2/3rds of its history), Islam expanded largely by the sword, with plenty of slaughter and slavery and second-class citizenship. (And no, I don't think that Western colonialism plus Christian missionaries was equivalent. The Spanish in Central and South America and the Belgians in the Congo might be close, but those covered only about 400 years and a few decades, respectively.)

Yes, "Islamic culture today is not monolithic," but it's damn close: how many Muslim-majority societies have real religious freedom? Fallaci is not pleased to see her traditional culture changed by immigrant groups which rarely share all of the values of the host society, and where new generations can be even less assimilated than their parents and grandparents (e.g. France). I think that's understandable and not "racist" at all. Call it "culturist" if want, though.

|6.13.06 @ 5:28PM|#

Hannibal jr.,

I've always found the way that the Carthaginians dealt with unsuccessful generals to be rather humorous. Basically they would execute them. The Carthaginians were the Klingons of their own day in some ways.

|6.14.06 @ 11:07AM|#

Here is the breakdown of equivalencies between the original Star Trek universe as I see it (the original series was made during the Cold War):

Klingons = Russians

Romulans = Red Chinese

Vulcans = Taiwan and all the other "friendly Asians"

Feel free to create a new list of Star Trek equivalents for the present earth.

By the way, is it just me or does the whole Iraq thing remind anyone of the Star Wars bar scene in Mos Eisley? Is is the first movie or the fourth? Anyway... 1 to beam up...

Kirk out.