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Branch Davidians Freed
On the 13th anniversary, yesterday, of one of the most vivid public government atrocities in our lifetime, the federal assault on and destruction of the Branch Davidians' home in Waco, the good (though inadequate) news comes that six imprisoned Davidians will be set free soon.
One of them, Paul Gordon Fatta, is understatedly said by AP to be "angry about the government's actions." Fatta wasn't even present during the raid or its horrific end; he was jugged on charges of helping Koresh possess illegal machine guns. Also worth remembering, which I find many don't in casual conversations, is that all of them were acquitted of the murder and conspiracy to commit murder charges.
A church was rebuilt on the site; I attended its dedication, on the 7th anniversary of the massacre. While I am not a religious man, being there, despite the haunting sense of loss, and inescapable awareness of unspeakable crime, was a moving evocation of an indestructible and admirable element in the human spirit. That no federal official or law enforcement officer was ever indicted for their actions in the raid says something far less admirable, stinking of the raw prerogatives of unchecked and reckless police power.
A roundup of Reason coverage, and some outside links, on Waco and Waco-related issues here.
|4.20.06 @ 11:03PM|#
It was also the anniversity of Oklahoma City. If I recall correctly, this is not a coincidence
|4.20.06 @ 11:18PM|#
It was just aweful. I really don't to this day have any idea
what Janet Reno and the FBI were thinking. The ATF was easy. They
did that raid because they wanted press. They could have grabbed
Keresh outside his compound, but that wouldn't have gotten on CNN.
Instead, they tried to stage a made for TV bust and things got out
of hand.
Once the stand off started, why ever go in? The Dividians might as
well have been in prison trapped in that compound. Just put a
minimum of people are around it and wait them out. If they want to
kill themselves, there is no way to stop them and charging the
compound makes it more likely.
I am not paranoid enough to believe that they really wanted to just
kill them. It is hard to explain it through shere incompetence.
Janet Reno is a pretty nasty character going all the way back to
her days as a Florida DA where she was responsible for some
appalling child sex convictions. Even so, I still can't beleive she
sent tanks and tear gas on Americans.
|4.20.06 @ 11:36PM|#
John: Explain these convictions? Were they bad choices on her part or does the nasty refer to the charged?
|4.21.06 @ 12:37AM|#
The ATF, or whatever they call it these days, should simplt be
disbanded. I'd say to abolish their funding, but I'm sure there'd
be a storm or criticism that we were being soft on terrorism or
some such nonsense. Therefore I think we should disband the ATF,
give their funding to the FBI, and let them decide of they want to
hire any of those evil punks or if they prefer to hire new recruits
or spend the money some other way.
The ATF is just a bunch of evil penis envy (they wanted FBI level
respect, still do) types who wanted a publicity stunt, and who
cares if many innocent people died as a result.
The people who got punished, and likely some who got away by
cleverly being anonymous, responsible for the evil bombing of a
government building in OK City, and the government employees
inside, and the innnocents inside, including children in a day care
centr, are a bunch of evil scum too who are no doubt rotting in
Hell.
Here endeth the rant.
|4.21.06 @ 12:40AM|#
Er, rereading my post, I want to make clear that I don't think
the victims are evil. The bombers were/are evil.
Also, not all can be rotting in Hell if some are alive. But their
day of reckoning will come.
|4.21.06 @ 12:41AM|#
http://www.ags.uci.edu/~dehill/witchhunt/cases/country_walk/reno_ph.htm
76
The convictions were McMartin type hysteria driven frame ups. Above
is a pretty good article explaining them. The Wall Street Journal
did a really good series on them in the 1990s. Here is another
really good account by the Journal's Dorothy Rabinowitz.
http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/courses/xcourses/oct29.htm
Ken Layne|4.21.06 @ 2:28AM|#
Thanks for that, Brian.
The sad thing is how rare it is to read something sane about that
insane nightmare.
The international criminal Pat Robertson continues to spit up his
stupid nonsense today, but a nobody wannabe messiah in rural Texas
saw his tiny group burned to death. Ain't that America, for you and
me ...
|4.21.06 @ 3:40AM|#
The ATF, or whatever they call it these days, should simply
be disbanded.
Yeah, as I've pointed out before, even G. Gordon Liddy hates
them.
|4.21.06 @ 4:07AM|#
Guess which religious nutcase quit smoking about seven years ago today? :-) Blame the government all you want, but if that child molesting maniac had come out when he was ordered to, those kids would probbaly still be alive. Would-be messiah? More likely a would-be Rasputin, the sex-mad monk! The blood of those children are on David Koresh's hands (or whatever his goddamned name was).
|4.21.06 @ 8:09AM|#
Was David Koresh a child molester? I see that accusation thrown around a lot, but I've never read any evidence for it.
|4.21.06 @ 8:32AM|#
Mr. Doherty, do you really want to be an apologist for an
apocalyptic, child abusing, armed-to-the-teeth cult? Really?
While there can be no denying that the ATF botched the raid on the
Branch Davidian compound, the blame for the outcome rests solely on
the shoulders of the psychotic scum that made up that
child-molesting cult. I suggest the FBI et al keep a close eye on
this new "church" as well.
And for you loonies who say the ATF should be disbanded, well,
whatever, there'll just be some other law enforcement agency to do
the job. You're loony ranting are pointless. The law has to be
enforced if we are to live in a civil society without fear of our
children being brainwashed and molested by armed religious
zealots.
Very disappointing, folks. Very.
JMJ
|4.21.06 @ 8:41AM|#
Troll? Jeez, you're original! How would you feel if your kid was
one of Koresh's toys?
JMJ
Rich Ard|4.21.06 @ 8:47AM|#
I'd hope my government wouldn't burn my kid to death because of it. How 'bout you?
|4.21.06 @ 8:55AM|#
Jersey:
Your argument is that no matter how many innocent people died in
the Waco massacre, they all had it coming to them and deserved what
they got. I find it contemptible that a human being could hold that
view.
|4.21.06 @ 9:03AM|#
No, JF. That's not at all what I'm saying. The ATF botched the
raid - yes. But the Davidians were a dangerous cult engaged in
illegal activity and had to be stopped.
What happened was a tragedy.
JMJ
|4.21.06 @ 9:06AM|#
While there can be no denying that the ATF botched the raid
on the Branch Davidian compound, the blame for the outcome
rests solely on the shoulders of the psychotic scum that made up
that child-molesting cult.
Gonna retract that then?
Rich Ard|4.21.06 @ 9:07AM|#
Too late to dissemble now, toolbox... let's review:
...the blame for the outcome rests solely on the shoulders of
the psychotic scum that made up that child-molesting
cult.
Hear hear, jf - hey, they might have been an
apocolyptic cult - but ain't that crazy, they turned out to be
right.
|4.21.06 @ 9:16AM|#
A little timeline here: The original raid, and the decision to
try to storm the compound to arrest Koresh rather than just
stopping him during one of his frequent trips into town, happened
under the Bush administration. Reno took office in the middle of
the action.
Whatever mistakes Janet Reno made, creating this situation in the
first place wasn't one of them.
|4.21.06 @ 9:32AM|#
It was also the anniversity of Oklahoma City. If I recall
correctly, this is not a coincidence
Also the anniversary of the battles of Concord and Lexington in
1775 (known as Patriot's Day in Massachusetts and Maine, before the
moved the holiday to the third Monday in April). That is, I think,
a coincidence.
|4.21.06 @ 9:33AM|#
Exactly Joe - and that's why the responsibility falls on the
shoulders of the cult members. No child-molesting, armed,
apocalyptic cult - no raid.
JMJ
|4.21.06 @ 9:40AM|#
VM:
Yes. I actually find Ruby Ridge even more disturbing than Waco, and
Bush didn't even have the possible excuse of inexperience that the
Clinton administration had. Oh yeah, and the fact that Randy Weaver
was enticed to commit a crime by the feds, and they used that
"crime" to justify what followed.
Rich Ard|4.21.06 @ 10:00AM|#
How did joe's comments lend credibility to
anything you said, JMJ?
No child-molesting, armed, apocalyptic cult - no
raid.
I challenge you to prove the child molestation, as I seem to recall
that Janet Reno wasn't able to, and she could convict a bedside
table for fondling a minor; and I don't seem to recall
holding wacky religious beliefs or handguns to be worthy of a death
sentence here.
I repeat: pack it up, toolbox.
|4.21.06 @ 10:03AM|#
Last time I checked, we didn't administer the death penalty for child molestation. Especially not to the children.
R C Dean|4.21.06 @ 10:04AM|#
The formula:
No child-molesting, armed, apocalyptic cult - no
raid
would seem to apply in both cases with almost no alteration to both
the Iraq war and the Palestinian/Israeli conflict.
Which would lead you to believe that JMJ also leveies complete
blame for the dead Iraqis on Saddam and the jihadis, and for the
dead Palestinian civilians on Hamas and Fatah.
Somehow, I doubt it.
|4.21.06 @ 10:07AM|#
RA,
I don't know how old you are, but I remember what happened vividly.
They were illegally stokepiling assault weapons, ex-culters were
claiming that children were among Koresh's "wives." There was abuse
reported of all sorts, and you, an untterly incurious sheep, don't
believe it? Who cares?
You want people like that doing things like that? Move to Somalia.
You are useless here.
JMJ
|4.21.06 @ 10:09AM|#
Quotes from a David Kopel (writer for independence institute,
rocky mountain news and Volkh.com) article on Waco the extracted
portion regards child abuse
--------------------------------------------------
"As FBI Director William Sessions acknowledged, there was "no
contemporaneous evidence" of child abuse; given the many FBI
listening devices inside the Mount Carmel Center, Sessions'
conclusion appears accurate."
"A few months after the fire, Reno said that she might have
misunderstood the FBI comments, and there was no evidence of
ongoing child abuse in the besieged home."
Here, the FBI was clearly correct; conditions were deteriorating in
the besieged home. Against the advice of government negotiators and
behavioral experts, the FBI tactical commanders had in the middle
of the siege decided to "demonstrate the authority of law
enforcement." The FBI did so by cutting off electricity to the
compound, shining lights on the compound all night to deprive the
residents (including the children) of sleep, running Bradley
Fighting Vehicles at the compound, and bombarding the compound with
hellacious noises such as dentists' drills and rabbits being
slaughtered.
The FBI's demonstration of authority had an immediate effect of
consolidating the Branch Davidians, and confirming to them Koresh's
prophecy that the government would ultimately kill them all. After
the FBI began the noise bombardment, the exodus of Branch Davidian
adults and children from their home came to an abrupt end.
--------------------------------------------------
In other words to save the Branch Davidian children from child
abuse that was not happening the FBI decided the best thing to do
was to take an action that resulted in the children being burned
alive.
What is really pathetic is how some people on this thread try to
pretend the government was not responsible for the disaster at
Waco.
|4.21.06 @ 10:10AM|#
Yes, it's worthwhile quibbling over who was president when the
government abuses its power. That solves the problem. Seems to me
that we have a common theme running through the various
administrations, regardless of political flavor.
Waco wasn't a cut-and-dried issue by any means. Koresh wasn't some
totally innocent guy, nor was everything going on there likely
kosher. However, there's little doubt that the federal government
abused its power and, in so doing, played a major role in
escalating the incident.
|4.21.06 @ 10:14AM|#
If it had just been cult members and no children I would be very
sympathetic to the whole, they should have given up and they got
what they deserved argument. What exactly where the children
trapped in there supposed to do? The were in effect hostages. They
didn't resist the police or do anything wrong.
You have a cheap wooden building without electricity full of
carosine burning lamps. Any idiot can figure out that the place is
going to burn down if you run a tank through the wall. Yes, the
cult members bear some responsibility. That doesn't change the fact
that the feds knew that there were innocent people in there and
that by attacking the compound they were placing those children at
grave risk. You can't use tear gas on a battle field yet Janet Reno
and the FBI thought it was okay to tear gas an enclosed area full
of women and children.
Yes, RC I would love to see what some of the posters would have to
say if the Davidians had been marijuana dealers who refused come
out. Somehow I think they would not be as sympathetic to the
cops.
You are right Joe, Janet Reno didn't start the mess. That was the
ATF, not Justice and the FBI.
|4.21.06 @ 10:18AM|#
Exactly Joe - and that's why the responsibility falls on the
shoulders of the cult members. No child-molesting, armed,
apocalyptic cult - no raid.
JMJ
With that arguement, Rodney King deserved what he got because if he
hadn't have been speeding he wouldn't have been pulled over. Maybe
King should thank the officers for not just putting a slug in his
head.
|4.21.06 @ 10:29AM|#
It is my understanding that child abuse laws are not within the
jurisdiction of the FBI. I also recall that the local sherrif said
at the time that he had investigated child abuse charges and had
not found probable cause to take any further action.
Oops, I think jf is right, and I confused Ruby Ridge with
Waco.
|4.21.06 @ 10:34AM|#
You Davidian apologists sicken me. I hope the ATF checks you all
out too. They should make a list of all the apologists so we can
keep our kids away from them.
JMJ
|4.21.06 @ 10:38AM|#
oops, meant to finish that.
Oops, I think jf is right, and I confused Ruby Ridge with
Waco.
No, you'e not really wrong, joe. The ATF's investigation and
shenanigans with obtaining a warrant with false testimony began
before Clinton's inauguration.
As the Dubai Ports clusterfuck showed us Presidents do not
micromanage the acts of every agency in the govt. And even only
become aware of what's going on when the shit hits the fan for some
reason.
Every so often one of them gets out of of control. When there as
heavily armed and aggressive as the ATF and the FBI the results are
disasterous.
|4.21.06 @ 10:40AM|#
"When there as heavily armed..." should read "When they're as
heavily armed..."
"you'e" should read "you're
|4.21.06 @ 10:43AM|#
Koresh regularly left the residence at Waco and went in to town.
In fact a few days before the raid he went target shooting with
some atf agents off location. The government had numerous chances
to arrest koresh away from other branch davidians but they did
not.
Why did they not arrest koresh in a safe manner away from the
branch davidian residences? The atf wanted a big show of force to
generate some publicity for them. So they decided to raid a
residence, where many women and children lived, in order to arrest
Koresh. Being publicity hounds got a lot of innocent children
killed.
There are still people who defend government actions at waco. Some
of this defense is out of ignorance. However, some of the defense
is out of a blind faith in government, and a pathetic lack of
concern for human rights. Disgusting is the best description for
this kind of defense.
Rich Ard|4.21.06 @ 10:45AM|#
You Davidian apologists sicken me.
JMJ
Hmm...I'm seeing several people placing the blame for the murder of
innocents at the feet of those to whom it belongs, not suggesting
that Koresh and his parish were a pack of saints.
You want people like that doing things like that?
JMJ
Not particularly. Do you think they should be executed along with
their families?
|4.21.06 @ 10:58AM|#
Jersey, you yourself make the distinction between approving of
what the Davidians did and supporting the actions of the
government.
Why can't you recognize that the libertoids are doing the same
thing?
|4.21.06 @ 11:00AM|#
You lost me, Joe. The gov't botched up - yes. But the Davidians
shot a law enforcement officers as they executed a warrant. It HAS
to fall on the Davidians first and foremost.
JMJ
|4.21.06 @ 11:02AM|#
A few things.
Koresh and company clearly broke the law.
Legal warrants were served and Federal Agents were shot.
The fires were started by the Davidians.
There were some apparently systemic problems with the ATF. Some
coverup in the investigation, and I believe a conviction on that
count.
But it seems a stretch to put most of the responsibility on the
government when the Davidians were the ones that set the fires.
|4.21.06 @ 11:03AM|#
This issue is to you libers what Tawana Brawley was to Al
Sharpton. If you libers want to be taken seriously, you have to
look at things as they are and put the damned gooy ideology away
sometimes.
JMJ
Rich Ard|4.21.06 @ 11:06AM|#
They killed themselves, RA.
JMJ
I'm sorry, we must be talking about two completely different
situations. I was under the impression this was the Waco
thread.
Oops! :)
|4.21.06 @ 11:08AM|#
Waco is a rohrshack test for anyone who claims to be a civil libetarian. The Davidians were about as unsympathetic a group as you could possibly find. The question you have to ask yourself is if the Davidians had been a group with whom you sympathized, would you find the government's actions more objectionable? I think the answer for a lot of people who defend the government in this case, if they were totally honest with themselves, would be yes.
|4.21.06 @ 11:09AM|#
theCoach,
Hasn't it been demonstrated that the fires were started by oil
lamps that were knocked over during the scamble, and not
deliberately?
|4.21.06 @ 11:09AM|#
Waco is a rohrshack test for anyone who claims to be a civil libetarian. The Davidians were about as unsympathetic a group as you could possibly find. The question you have to ask yourself is if the Davidians had been a group with whom you sympathized, would you find the government's actions more objectionable? I think the answer for a lot of people who defend the government in this case, if they were totally honest with themselves, would be yes.
|4.21.06 @ 11:13AM|#
John, that is sick. How the f'n hell would the gov't be more
responsibilty than a law-breaking bunch of culters who shot at the
cops when they were issuing legal warrant?
JMJ
|4.21.06 @ 11:26AM|#
So, I guess their kids deserved to die too and it should be the
autmatic death penalty for anyone who shoots at a cop and also
their entire family. That is really what you are argueing. The cops
have a right to do whatever they need to to apprehend someone who
resists and if the person's children happen to be killed in the
process that is the suspects fault. The police owe no duty of care
to the children. If you don't want your family gassed and burned
alive, don't resist the police.
That is pretty much your agrument isn't is Jersey?
|4.21.06 @ 11:35AM|#
"You Davidian apologists..."
"You libbers..."
"You people are no better than David Koresh..."
"[You]apologist for an apocalyptic, child abusing,
armed-to-the-teeth cult..."
This argument is way too sophisticated for me.
|4.21.06 @ 11:41AM|#
John, the sicko child-abusing parents were responsible for
that.
I'm tallin ya man - you guys look loony on this one.
JMJ
|4.21.06 @ 11:52AM|#
Last time I checked, we didn't administer the death penalty
for child molestation.
No, but we want to:
"A week after Hinson's arrest, South Carolina's Senate voted 38-4
to allow the death penalty for sex offenders convicted a second
time of raping children younger than 11. Oklahoma lawmakers are
considering a similar bill."
http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/04/20/child.rapists.ap/index.html
|4.21.06 @ 12:13PM|#
Well Jersey,
Thank you for proving my point. You took the Waco rohrshack test
and came back with the answer "the police should be able to gas,
burn and shoot anyone I don't like."
|4.21.06 @ 12:38PM|#
John, a toddler wouldn't be dumb enough to walk awy with that
impression. I never said that and can't imagine what sort of mind
would extrapolate it. The situation was created by the Branch
Davidians. You are a hypocritical excuse for a libertarian.
I'd bet anything that if the Bracnh Davidians had instead been the
Black Panthers not a one of you would be complaining about what
happened - there's a rohrschact test for ya.
JMJ
Larry A|4.21.06 @ 12:38PM|#
As I remember the Davidians had "stockpiled a vast arsenal" of
about 3-4 firearms per adult. Hardly even remarkable in Texas,
where lots of folks have a shotgun, a deer rifle, a .22, and a
revolver. They also had "hoarded" food so they had a couple of
weeks' supply.
No weapons charges were ever brought. The ATF stored the burned
remains of the firearms in a warehouse, and AFAIK have never
allowed anyone to examine them to determine if they were in fact
fully automatic or not.
The Feds also alleged that the Davidians were manufacturing illegal
drugs, as that was a requirement to obtain the military vehicles
used. There was never any proof and allegations vanished when the
armor was returned.
|4.21.06 @ 12:50PM|#
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Hampton
It was as sickening when they did it to the Black Panthers as when
they did it to the Branch Davidians.
|4.21.06 @ 1:14PM|#
Jersey McJones: if you are so worried about dangerous and odious
cults, there are many more worthy of intervention and attention.
not to go terribly off-topic or anything, but scientology has
destroyed the brains of many more people than the relatively
harmless mr koresch could ever dream of reaching, and yet, for some
unfathomable reason, it's treated largely as some sort of "real"
religion.
even if i were to accept the idea that it is the federal
government's duty to go a-cult-bustin', i would object to their
inappropriate use of force against the branch davidians, and their
choice to attack the BDs and not other more dangerous cults.
|4.21.06 @ 1:23PM|#
"I don't know how old you are, but I remember what happened
vividly. They were illegally stokepiling assault weapons,
ex-culters were claiming that children were among Koresh's "wives."
There was abuse reported of all sorts, and you, an untterly
incurious sheep, don't believe it? Who cares?"
No, fuckwit. WRONG. The claims that they were illegally stockpiling
machineguns were never substantiated.
And even if they were, the only law that they would have been
violating would have been failure to pay the $200 transfer tax.
When was the last time someone deserved to be burned to death for
failing to pay a $200 fee?
|4.21.06 @ 1:30PM|#
Jersey McJones: if you are so worried about dangerous and odious
cults, there are many more worthy of intervention and attention.
not to go terribly off-topic or anything, but scientology has
destroyed the brains of many more people than the relatively
harmless mr koresch could ever dream of reaching, and yet, for some
unfathomable reason, it's treated largely as some sort of "real"
religion.
even if i were to accept the idea that it is the federal
government's duty to go a-cult-bustin', i would object to their
inappropriate use of force against the branch davidians, and their
choice to attack the BDs and not other more dangerous cults.
|4.21.06 @ 1:32PM|#
Jersey McJones: if you are so worried about dangerous and odious
cults, there are many more worthy of intervention and attention.
not to go terribly off-topic or anything, but scientology has
destroyed the brains of many more people than the relatively
harmless mr koresch could ever dream of reaching, and yet, for some
unfathomable reason, it's treated largely as some sort of "real"
religion.
even if i were to accept the idea that it is the federal
government's duty to go a-cult-bustin', i would object to their
inappropriate use of force against the branch davidians, and their
choice to attack the BDs and not other more dangerous cults.
|4.21.06 @ 1:38PM|#
I read above mention of warrants being served. That is incorrect. A search warrant was issued, but upon Congressional questioning, the ATF admitted they had no idea where that warrant was, nor who possessed it. Kind of hard to serve such a warrant.
|4.21.06 @ 1:43PM|#
No weapons charges were ever brought.
...
The claims that they were illegally stockpiling machineguns
were never substantiated.
...
And the ATF got its hand slapped because the original warrant was
obtained under false pretenses using questionable information from
an informant.
Funny how quiet the hand-slapping of government agencies that abuse
their powers can be, isn't it?
|4.21.06 @ 2:27PM|#
Really folks, I remember it like it was yesterday. Yes, the ATF
bungled, but the BDs fired on them. What ever happened to personal
responsibility with you guys?
JMJ
|4.21.06 @ 2:30PM|#
I have never seen a good fact based explination of exactly what the Davidians did to warrent the feds kicking in their door. Further, I have never seen one shred of evidence that they were molesting children during the standoff. There is no evidence that the Davidians were anything other than whackjobs who were capable of violence if screwed with. Of course the ATF could not resist going out and screwing with them and creating a tragedy that didn't need to happen.
|4.21.06 @ 3:11PM|#
Jersey, you have reached a new level of densitude.
Just keep on goose-steppin' brotha.
|4.21.06 @ 3:20PM|#
JMJ - I think you remember it like you were there, actually. You
don't know anything about the actual facts of the situation. For
example, the drug charges nexus required to use military equipment
was proven to be false. Child abuse charges never proven. Firearms
violations never proven. In other words, no real crimes committed
at Waco other than slaughter by BATF.
"Authoritative evidence conclusively demonstrates that any
precursor chemical or methamphetamine connection at the Waco
compound had occurred in 1987, fully six years before the raid. It
is probable that David Koresh was in fact responsible for expelling
the member involved in the fledgling illegal drug activity, going
so far as to report the offender to police.[25] The six-year lapse
in these events clearly attenuates the underlying rationale for
illegal drug activity; the BATF request nevertheless boldly
asserted the needed nexus."
In fact the military was asked to assist but the very bright
military lawyer advising his commander advised his CO that only the
ATF that only DEA could give them the probable cause nexus to
employ military force.
Here's some interesting reading - the bad news is, if it were DEA
asking, the Army might have rolled in:
"The principle example of the contentious nature of such support
[military support to law enforcement] can be found in a review and
analysis of the support provided to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms (BATF) by the Army under the operational control of
Joint Task Force 6 (JTF 6), during the siege and assault of David
Koresh's Branch Davidian compound outside of Waco, Texas.[18]
Joint Task Force 6 is a long-standing operational unit; in 1993, it
was under the operational control of US Army Forces Command
(FORSCOM) and the United States Atlantic Command (USACOM)...
provided an intelligence fusion center and rapid response for
surveillance needs along the Southwest border.
Essentially, requests for military support of law enforcement
agencies would flow into JTF 6, be vetted by its staff as having
the appropriate drug nexus, and be approved with deployment orders
transmitted by the JCS.[19] Major projects included area, as
opposed to pinpoint, surveillance and reporting, and the use of
aviation assets to ferry law enforcement officers. Soldiers
detailed to JTF 6 were attached to that organization from their
parent unit for specified periods of time; thus a Special Forces
Operational Detachment with supporting aviation was part of a Rapid
Reaction Support Unit assigned to JTF 6 in early 1993 for a
six-month period.
During this same period a request came into Operation Alliance for
military assets to support a BATF operation against a
methamphetamine laboratory located on the outskirts of Waco.[20]
The request detailed the needs of the BATF: military training in
the specific areas of medical treatment, communications procedures,
operational plan development, review, and approval, and "room
clearing discriminate fire operations," termed "close-quarter
combat" by the military.[21] More important, the BATF requested
that Army medics and communicators actually accompany them to the
forward staging base if not on the actual mission. Clearly, the
request was more expansive than those normally received.[22]
The original request was initially approved by the JTF 6 staff.
However, questions by the Commander of the Special Forces
detachment relayed to his home-unit legal advisor resulted in a
review of the extent of Army involvement. Consequently, in the
actual operation the Army provided only a training site at Fort
Hood, safety inspection of the training lanes set up by the BATF,
and medical and communications training and equipment. All members
of the Special Forces detachment departed the training site at Fort
Hood before the operation at the Branch Davidian compound took
place.[23]
The results of the attempt by the BATF to forcibly serve a warrant
at the Branch Davidian compound were disastrous. In the initial
assault, four BATF agents were killed and 20 were wounded, the
greatest loss of life in the bureau's history. Six Branch Davidian
members were killed and four were wounded. The resulting siege
captured the attention of the nation, and its tragic, fiery
conclusion two months later resulted in the deaths of 74 Branch
Davidians, including 21 children under the age of 14.[24]
While some lessons for America's military leaders from this
incident remain obscure, there are at least three that can be
derived from it. First, military decisionmakers cannot rely on the
assertions of other federal agencies. The BATF knew of the
requirement to establish a drug nexus in order to obtain needed
military support from JTF 6.
Authoritative evidence conclusively demonstrates that any precursor
chemical or methamphetamine connection at the Waco compound had
occurred in 1987, fully six years before the raid. It is probable
that David Koresh was in fact responsible for expelling the member
involved in the fledgling illegal drug activity, going so far as to
report the offender to police.[25] The six-year lapse in these
events clearly attenuates the underlying rationale for illegal drug
activity; the BATF request nevertheless boldly asserted the needed
nexus.
It became clear from the after-action reports and investigations
that BATF's primary interest in this case stemmed from their
conclusion that the Branch Davidians were stockpiling weapons in
their compound.[26] That conclusion perhaps could have been
foreshadowed by a series of anomalies related to the BATF request
for Special Forces support. They were the peripheral nature of BATF
in drug operations (usually spearheaded by the Drug Enforcement
Agency at the federal level), the lack of involvement of the
specialized drug laboratory reaction force, and the extensive
nature of military support requested. All provided strong
indications that further command inquiry was advisable. And
although the commanding general of the JTF testified before
Congress that he saw no reason to pierce the veil of the BATF
request,[27] the implications of this sequence of events should be
understood by commanders and senior staff officers engaged in such
operations in the future.
The specter of members of the Army's special operations forces
accompanying BATF agents storming a religious compound, however
misguided its leader, could have seriously compromised public
support of the US Army. Had the initial request been approved (it
was) and acted upon (it wasn't), this could easily have been the
single most debilitating event to occur within the Army since the
tragedy at My Lai. In fact, this occurrence could have been even
more egregious because it would have taken place on American soil,
would have been a clear violation of the Posse Comitatus Act, and
would have raised the issue of military involvement in a case of
alleged religious freedom.
The second important lesson for both leaders and followers is to
recognize that the military's fervor to complete the mission, so
essential in desperate battles to take the high ground, needs to be
curtailed while supporting other federal agencies in suppressing
drugs. The military mentality that breeds conformance and
dedication to team effort must give way to healthy skepticism and
critical analysis. Missions such as those described above are on
the periphery of the role of the US Army. Any actual or perceived
departure from applicable legal restrictions can lead to an
unacceptable loss of confidence in the Army. In testimony before
Congress, the officer who questioned the legality of the proposed
mission at Waco related that his JTF 6 counterpart, a
higher-ranking officer, had indicated that the witness was being an
unwarranted obstacle to mission success.[28] In fact, the officer
who objected to the mission was asking probing questions for all
the right reasons, thus precluding a significant role for the Army
in the debacle at Waco.
Finally, leaders can take heart from the fact that the training and
experience of today's soldiers allow them to make the right
decisions in situations fraught with career and personal
implications. Granted, in this instance the soldiers were mature
commissioned and noncommissioned officers with substantial
operational experience. However, at considerable personal risk they
had the integrity and wisdom to question the propriety of the
proposed mission within their operational chain of command. When
the answer did not comport with their training and experience, they
had the moral courage to go outside official channels to receive an
independent legal opinion from their parent unit's legal
advisor.[29] Had they simply gone along with the attitude that an
order is an order, they would have involved the Army in a violation
of Posse Comitatus, contributed to a great scandal, potentially
subjected themselves to personal liability, and unnecessarily
complicated the criminal prosecutions." (pp. 82-97)
http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/97autumn/lujan.htm
All quoted pieces from the online version of the Autumn 1997
edition of Parameters, The U.S. Army War College Quarterly (The
United States Army's Senior Professional Journal).
Written by Colonel Thomas R. Lujan is the Staff Judge Advocate at
the United States Special Operations Command, MacDill AFB, Tampa,
Florida. He graduated from the US Military Academy, West Point,
N.Y., in 1971, and obtained his Juris Doctor (J.D.) from the
University of Minnesota in 1979. Colonel Lujan is a 1988 graduate
of the Army Command and General Staff College and a 1996 graduate
of the Army War College. He has held various judge advocate
assignments, most notably in support of special operations
forces.
|4.21.06 @ 3:23PM|#
I keep telling you loonies, you've taken the wrong course
here...
JMJ
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/davidkoresh.html
"Koresh had an affair with then-prophetess Lois Roden who was in
her late sixties. The two travelled to Israel together. When Lois
Roden died, a power struggle began between Koresh and Lois Roden's
son George. For a short time, Koresh retreated with his followers
to eastern Texas. But in late 1987 he returned to Mount Carmel in
camouflage with seven male followers, armed with five .223 caliber
semiautomatic assault rifles, two .22 caliber rifles, two 12-gauge
shotguns and nearly 400 rounds of ammunition. During the gunfight,
Roden was shot in the chest and hands.
He and his followers went on trial for attempted murder. The seven
were acquitted and a mistrial was declared in Koresh's case.
(Koresh told the jury he and his men went to Mount Carmel to find
evidence of corpse abuse by Roden and their shots were aimed at a
tree.)"
"The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms investigated David
Koresh for conduct involving: the illegal manufacture of machine
guns and the illegal manufacture and possession of destructive
devices. The FBI report provides evidence that the Davidians'
arsenal did indeed include weapons unlawfully manufactured. The
weapons listed include semiautomatic firearms illegally modified to
fire in full automatic mode, as well as grenades and silencers. All
of these weapons were unlawfully possessed."
"WEAPONS RECOVERED FROM THE BRANCH DAVIDIAN COMPOUND: TREASURY
SUMMARY OF REPORT PREPARED BY THE FBI FOR PROSECUTORS AND THE
ILLEGAL WEAPONS RECOVERED
Machine Guns
The FBI determined that 46 semiautomatic firearms had been modified
to fire in full automatic mode:
22 M-16 Type Rifles
20 AK-47 Type Rifles
2 Heckler and Koch SP-89
2 M-11/Nine
The FBI also determined that two AR-15 lower receivers had been
modified to fire in full automatic mode.
Silencers
21 Sound suppressors or silencers
Hand Grenades
4 Live M-21 Practice Hand Grenades
The possession of lawfully manufactured machineguns, silencers, or
grenades requires the owner to register the weapon with the Bureau
of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms. None of the compound's
residents were registered to own such a weapon, therefore it would
have been illegal for them to possess these weapons.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WEAPONS RECOVERED FROM THE BRANCH DAVIDIAN COMPOUND: TREASURY
SUMMARY OF REPORT PREPARED BY THE FBI FOR PROSECUTORS AND THE TEXAS
DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY
TOTAL WEAPONS RECOVERED
(Including Weapons Mentioned on Previous Page)
FIREARMS
Rifles and Rifle Components
61 M-16 Type and 2 M-16 Lower Receivers
61 AK-47 Type
34 AR-15 Type and 2 AR-15 Lower Receivers
13 Shotguns -- 12 gauge
11 7.62MM FN FAL Type
10 Mini-14 Type
7 37mm. Flare Gun/Launcher Type
6 .30 Carbine Calber US Carbine, Model M1
6 Assorted Rifles
5 M-11/Nine
5 M-14 Type
3 Galil
2 Heckler and Koch SP-89
1 Air Rifle
1 Heckler and Koch MP-5
1 Sten submachine gun
Pistols and Revolvers
23 Beretta
13 Glock
8 Assorted Revolvers
6 Safari Arms
6 Assorted Pistols
5 Sig Sauer
5 Walther
2 Taurus
EXPLOSIVES
Hand Grenades
4 Live M-21 Practice Hand Grenades
100+ Modified M-21 Practice Hand Grenade bodies; the bodies of
these had been threaded and plugged but lacked a main charge or
fusing system.
11 M-69 Practice Hand Grenades; the bodies of these grenades
exhibited indications of attempted modifications.
219 Grenade Safety Pins
243 Grenade Safety Levers
Rifle Grenades
200+ Inert M31 Practice Rifle Grenades.
FIREARMS ACCESSORIES AND PARTS
Silencers
21 Sound suppressors and silencers.
Flash Suppressors
18 Flash Suppressors.
Firearms Barrels
17 M-16/AR-15 Type (5.56 mm)
8 M-16/AR-15 Type (9mm caliber)
3 M-16/AR-15 Type (.45 ACP caliber)
1 M-16/AR-15 Type (5.56 mm)
2 Ruger. 22 Caliber
1 M-60 machine gun
1 12 Gauge Shotgun
1 Taurus, Model 92, 9mm pistol barrel
1 Sig Sauer 9mm pistol barrel
Pistol Slides
1 Sig Sauer Model
Revolver Parts
1 .38 Special caliber cylinder
Bolt Carriers
39 M-16
24 AR-15
2 MP-5
2 AK-47
1 FAL
1 Unknown
Bolts
15 AK-47
7 .22 LR conversion
3 M-16/AR-15
1 FN FAL (1)
Bolt Assemblies
3 M-11/Nine
2 M-16
1 AR-15
1 MAC-10
1 Shotgun
Recoil Springs and Guides
3 Glock
2 Sig Sauer
1 Beretta
1 M-11/Nine
Stripper Clips
29 Stripper Clips
Accessories
6 .22 LR Caliber Conversion Kits
Hammers
31 AK-47
18 M-16
12 AR-15
4 M-11/Nine
2 Sig Sauer
1 Beretta
Hammer Springs
3 AK-47
Buffer/Recoil Springs
36 M-16/AR-15
4 AK-47
Selector Switches
9 M-16
3 AR-15
1 Unknown
Sears
1 M-11/Nine
Auto Sears
8 AK-47
4 M-16
1 FN FAL
Auto Sear Springs
12 AK-47
Disconnects
7 AK-47
1 M-16
Trigger/Trigger Mechanisms/Trigger Housings
17 M-16
6 AR-15
3 M-60
3 M-11/Nine
2 MP-5
2 Sten
1 AK-47
1 Heckler & Koch
1 M-14
1 Smith & Wesson
1 Beretta
1 Shotgun
Ammunition Magazines
289 7.62 x 39mm AK-47 Type
248 .223/5.56 mm M-16/AR-15 Type
108 Sten Gun Type
88 .308 Caliber FN FAL Type
72 M-14 Type
61 Beretta Model Type 92
58 .308 Caliber of Unkown Type
28 Ruger Mini-14 Type
22 .22 Caliber
17 UZI Type
16 USAS-12 Type
13 .45 Caliber
11 Glock
11 MP-5
11 Sig Sauer P226/P228
9 Unknown Type
7 .308 Caliber Galil Type
6 Walther PPK
5 9mm Unknown Type
4 .50 Caliber
3 .30 Caliber U.S. Carbine
3 .380 Auto Caliber
2 9mm Smith & Wesson
1 AK-74 Type
1 Grendel
Ammunition Containers
220 Metal Boxes (Various Calibers)
15 Wooden Boxes (Various Calibers)
4 Buckets (Various Calibers)
1 Cardboard Boxes (Various Calibers)
Magazine Springs
360 M-16/AR-15
42 FN FAL .308 Caliber Type
35 AK-47
28 9mm Magazine Springs of Unknown Type
15 Unknown
10 M-14
6 M-1 Carbine
3 .50 Caliber
1 Mini-14 Magazine
1 Glock
These lists do not include dozens of other items recovered from the
Compound such as dust covers, extractors, front and rear sights,
gun cleaning equipment, bolt release levers, compensators, .50
caliber belt links and numerous other parts."
|4.21.06 @ 3:35PM|#
Well Jersey,
I have to admire their taste in weapons. No one denies that they
were whackjobs and were armed. That still doesn't justify burning
21 children death. If anything the presense of the arms and the
children argues for a more low key approach, like grabbing Koresh
when he was in town.
|4.21.06 @ 3:35PM|#
Well, damn, JMJ. That list of personal possessions is just bound to convince people that those people should have been burned alive with their kids. Especially libertarian people.
|4.21.06 @ 3:44PM|#
Jersey, looking through that list, I see nothing but stuff that
is legal to own, with the possible exception of the Sten
Submachinegun, which, I would lay even money on being a
non-functioning parts kit or display model.
When they say they recovered M16 or AK47 rifles, I seriously doubt
that they are the actual real McCoy.
And even if they were, again, I point out that the biggest crime in
having an unregistered machinegun is the failure to pay the $200
transfer tax.
But I guess that if someone fails to pay a $200 tax that's
justification enough to kill their kids.
|4.21.06 @ 3:51PM|#
Same goes for the sound suppressors, which shouldn't be prohibited in the first place.
|4.21.06 @ 4:47PM|#
Sorry for the inordinately long post to essentially say what John did in about a paragraph.
|4.21.06 @ 5:27PM|#
Reasonable force. If I'm trying to stop a guy from, say, beating my car with a bat, I can use reasonable force to stop him. That would not include using a flamethrower. The same sort of idea is supposed to apply to law enforcement. Whether beating Rodney King or blowing up the Davidian compound, we expect such things to be done in a reasonable way. Taking extra, extra care when kids are involved is kinda sorta expected, too.
|4.21.06 @ 6:04PM|#
JMJ,
Considering that I currently own, have owned, or plan/would like to
own many of the items on that list that you just put forth, I find
nothing on that list that is definitely illegal. The # of guns
involved seems to frighten you, but let's face it, considering the
number of people living there it's not an inordinate # of
firearms.
I'm still waiting for you to show the gun charges were legitimate -
it looks like you've given up on all the other BS child
abuse/molestation claims and the drug claims.
Frankly, if one of your neighbors living in the same gated
community as you has converted legal semi-auto rifles to "illegal"
(which would really just be unlicensed, not really illegal)
full-auto rifles, does that mean it's OK for the BATF to kill
everyone in your neghborhood down to the last man, woman and child
- including your wife and kids?
Do you realize how insane that sounds? Do you realize how crazy you
sound when you say that they had it coming because they were
religious nuts?
There isn't a religion on earth that isn't nutty to some extent,
some are just more entrenched - and therefore socially acceptable
than others.
I personally know more than one perosn who has more guns than what
you've cited the Davidians had, including fully automatic weapons
(with the proper licensing to do so, I should add). So the worst
the Davidians did as far as the "gun crimes" you are claiming is
that they didn't have the proper license - and you apparently can't
even show that there were firearms that had been converted to fully
auto.
So... Still think they had it coming JMJ? Still think they did this
to themselves?
|4.21.06 @ 6:36PM|#
Jersey,
I hope the ATF checks you all out too. They should make a list
of all the apologists so we can keep our kids away from
them.
Why don't you slide back under your rock and polish up those
jackboots?
|4.21.06 @ 6:55PM|#
Not that they need any excuse to exercise their second
amendment right to keep and bear arms, but IIRC, the Branch
Davidians made extra money by buying and selling guns.
Cars cause more deaths than guns and yet in addition to dealerships
that advertise on TV, there are smaller operators who just buy low
and sell high. At any given time they will have more cars than the
average citizen. I don't think that makes 'em terrorists, unless
the cars are Pintos or Corvairs.
|4.21.06 @ 7:44PM|#
You lost me, Joe. The gov't botched up - yes. But the
Davidians shot a law enforcement officers as they executed a
warrant.
Kinda like Cory Maye or Donald Carlson. As I said on Hit and Run
last December, commenting on the Maye case: I understand that cops
sometimes reasonably believe that they have to conduct no-knock
raids. But when they do, they need to understand that they are
voluntarily assuming the risk of death at the hands of a homeowner
who reasonably concludes that he is in danger of death or serious
bodily harm from an armed intruder. (And sometimes, the conclusions
is not just reasonable but correct. Remember Mark Clark and Fred
Hampton in Chicago in 1969.) They need to understand that if they
are killed under such circumstances, it's a regrettable
misunderstanding, but justifiable homicide.
|4.21.06 @ 9:10PM|#
"No one denies that they were whackjobs and were armed."
Actually, quite a large number of posters denied that they were
armed, or at least that they were in possession of illegal
weaponry.
Which explains the rather dramatic shift in argument that occured
after Jersey's post. "The claims that they were illegally
stockpiling machineguns were never substantiated" becomes, "Yeah,
well, what's wrong with having a closet full of M-16s, and another
closet full of AK-47s, converted to automatic fire?"
The Branch Davidians weren't just a creepy cult - they were
freaking dangerous. And no, you super-incisive thinkers, that isn't
a justification for the indefensible manner the government
responded to the situation.
|4.21.06 @ 9:11PM|#
Koresh : 21st Century Libertoids :: Alger Hiss : 1950s
Liberals
He's got to be innocent, man. He's GOT to be!
|4.21.06 @ 9:59PM|#
Joe -
I think the claim the others were making was the guns were never
shown to be fully automatic. The ATF has never allowed an open
viewing of the items that came out of the compound.
Let's see. Drug charges - false. Child molestation/abuse alegations
- false. Automatic Rifles - proven because they say so even though
they refuse to show the proof.
I mean hell - if Bush told you three statements about one situation
- two lies you could prove were wrong, but one lie you couldn't
disprove - would you believe the third one anyway?
Also as others have pointed out a fine for failing to register a
fully automatic weapon is hardly a reason for a full blown
siege.
|4.21.06 @ 10:36PM|#
Just to add a little clarity here. ATF shot first: killing the
dogs outside the walls, and firing through the roof from the
filming helicopter.
Next the AFT attempted to come through windows. That's when Officer
Friendly bought the farm. For all those who claim these were
whackjobs and the AFT were merely trying to serve a warrant, at the
time a lawyer inside Mt. Carmel was on the phone to 9-1-1 reporting
that Mt. Carmel was under attack. Gee, if you knew it was law
enforcement attacking, why call the cops?
Finally, remember that Janet Reno has a degree in chemistry, and
most likely knew what CS gas in an enclosed place would do.
|4.21.06 @ 11:38PM|#
Jersey please please watch Waco Rules of Engagement
and you will see how the wool has been pulled over your eyes. Here
is the link for part 2 at least watch from 30 - 35min after you see
them shooting at people trying to run out of the burning "compound"
you will watch the rest.
Part 2
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1755692679103175934&q=waco+infrared&pl=true
Part 1
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4298137966377572665&q=waco+infrared&pl=true
The ATF used military weapons and chemical weapons on Americans.
First they poked holes going horizontally and vertically through
the compound. And then they filled the building with CS gas mixed
with Metheylene chloride. They poked holes into the walls to make
it burn like a pot belly stove. CS gas is highly flammable and then
when you ignite it releases cyanide gas. When you look at pictures
of the vault (where the woman and children were hiding) you will
see that they pumped so much CS gas in there that there was burn
marks on the wall all the way up to knee level. When you inhale
cyanide gas it makes your body contourt untill you break all of
your bones. And you can see on Rules of Engagement people running
out the exit by the vault and you can see people shooting the women
and children as the try to escape the inferno and chemical
weapons.
Please watch this video we can not let the goverment use military
force and chemical weapons on people. These people were taking
tanks and doing donughts in their yard and running over cars, and
do you know what their superior officer said? Well these boys dont
get to many oppurtunities to use these things so they were a little
restless.
|4.22.06 @ 3:07PM|#
Koresh : 21st Century Libertoids :: Alger Hiss : 1950s
Liberals
He's got to be innocent, man. He's GOT to be!
I haven't seen anyone say that Koresh was necessarily innocent (you
would have to specify exactly what he's supposedly guilty of
though).
The point is, as you, yourself have observed, the Government was
out of line here.
If they had a beef with Koresh they should have arrested him away
from the property (I am totally fucking sick of hearing the word
"compound").
|4.23.06 @ 3:50PM|#
"Which explains the rather dramatic shift in argument that
occured after Jersey's post. "The claims that they were illegally
stockpiling machineguns were never substantiated" becomes, "Yeah,
well, what's wrong with having a closet full of M-16s, and another
closet full of AK-47s, converted to automatic fire?""
Joe, here's the deal. Not even a certified gun-nut such as yours
truly can tell the difference between an AR15 and an M16 without
being close enough to hold it and examine it.
The ATF has lied on more than one occassion, and I would not be
surprised to find out that a bunch of AR15 rifles recovered after
the standoff magically became M16's.
Also, I will note that it is *technically* not illegal to have the
parts to convert a rifle into an automatic weapon. However, the ATF
assumes that if you have the parts and the rifle that they would go
into, that you have a full-blown machinegun. (Similar to how
possessing more than a certain amount of pot is assumed to be proof
that you meant to distribute it.)
Same goes for the dummy grenades, supposed sound suppressors and
all the rest of it. Show me an invoice from Gem Tech or any other
suppressor maker to the Branch Davidians, and I'll believe they had
illegal suppressors.
Say what you will about the Davidians being so "dangerous" but it
seems to me that they didn't get all dangerous until after the feds
decided to go after them.
But then again, I guess that burning children to death over failure
to pay a $200 transfer tax was the right thing to do.
|4.23.06 @ 10:03PM|#
Say what you will about the Davidians being so "dangerous"
but it seems to me that they didn't get all dangerous until after
the feds decided to go after them.
The previous 93 comments could have been distilled into this one
sentence and no other defense of the Branch Davidians would have
been needed.
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