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David Weigel | April 19, 2006

Alexander Zaitchik visits the world's first Bruce Lee monument ... in Bosnia.

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|4.19.06 @ 1:04PM|#

Unfortunaly protests errupted when those who wanted a Chuck Norris statue took to the streets.

Signs were seen saying that Chuck Norris counted to infinity, twice.

David Weigel|4.19.06 @ 1:10PM|#

The stigmata from Chuck Norris' statue can cure cancer. Too bad it's never bled.

|4.19.06 @ 1:22PM|#

Why not include the picture of the statue from the print edition of this story?

|4.19.06 @ 1:35PM|#

Nobody ever massacred a village with nunchucks.

I have.

Twice.

|4.19.06 @ 1:42PM|#

A Jack Bauer Statue could beat up a Chuck Norris statue.

They were going to use a Jack Bauer statue in Ghostbusters II, but Jack Bauer didn't see the point of being in a movie if the villain is already dead.

A Jack Bauer statue would have leaped off the pedestal on Ellis Island and grabbed the airplanes out of the air on 9/11.

|4.19.06 @ 2:06PM|#

Chuck Norris wasn't delivered out of his mother's womb, he punched his way out and roundhouse kicked the entire medical staff. Shortly there after, he grew a beard.

What did bruce lee ever do?

|4.19.06 @ 2:09PM|#

Jack Bauer has killed more than 100 terrorists and saved America 4 times (soon to be 5).

What have Chuck Norris and Bruce Lee ever done?

|4.19.06 @ 2:27PM|#

"What did bruce lee ever do?"

Defeat Chuck Norris in single combat, IIRC. (See Way of the Dragon.)

|4.19.06 @ 2:34PM|#

I can't take Jack Bauer seriously. When I watch 24, I see Kiefer Sutherland, and I'm not impressed. His dad's a better actor. Vic Mackey would hand Jack Bauer his ass 10 times out of 10. Matter of fact, I'm tired of hearing about Bruce Lee, too. One inch punch my ass. The mythology and hero-worship that surrounds that guy is ridiculous.

|4.19.06 @ 2:40PM|#

Ditto on Bruce. He gets credit for starting down the path of doing whatever works, but I wouldn't want to see him in the ring against a decent MMA fighter.

Stand up like a Thai fighter, take down and defend the take down like a greco roman wrestler, and fight on your back like a Brazilian. Add more ingredients as you find them. Matt Hughes would hand Bruce his ass.

|4.19.06 @ 2:42PM|#

SR,

Sure he took a dive in the movie. That was business. But, years later Bruce Lee died of a brain aneurism inflicted by Chuck Norris' insidiously slow acting touch of death.

MP|4.19.06 @ 2:42PM|#

A Jack Bauer statue would have leaped off the pedestal on Ellis Island and grabbed the airplanes out of the air on 9/11.

Its Liberty Island, actually. ;)

|4.19.06 @ 2:43PM|#

Yeah, but you guys have obviously never seen what Jack Bauer can do with a hack saw. Or a wet towel.

You don't want to know.

|4.19.06 @ 2:53PM|#

MMA wouldn't exist without Bruce. It's true that his fighting prowess is more myth than fact, but he helped crush the myth that one style is inherently superior to another. The idea that the situation should dictate your response was pretty groundbreaking.

As for MMA in general, I've been out since they added time limits and other rules to tilt the field against the Gracies. Sure it makes for a product with more mass appeal, but at the expense of the "reality" that MMA supposedly strives for.

Besides everyone knows that George "The Animal" Steele would own them all.

|4.19.06 @ 2:55PM|#

thoreau, I've been meaning to ask you--what are Jack Bauer's politics? For that matter, what are Chuck Norris'? Can we claim either?

MP|4.19.06 @ 2:58PM|#

Besides everyone knows that George "The Animal" Steele would own them all.

Would he suffocate them with his chest hair?

|4.19.06 @ 2:59PM|#

ralphus:

I kinda feel like the time limits are a reasonable compromise. After all, strikers have their hands tied for safety reasons.

If you do a Gracie style shoot for the legs and miss, you can drop to your knees and not worry about getting kneed or shin kicked in the head. That in particular makes the initiation of a grapple against a striker more appealing than pure realism would allow. The compromise is pretty good these days, IMO.

|4.19.06 @ 3:01PM|#

MP,

Yes. Your only defense is a music box and/or a Miss Elizabeth.

|4.19.06 @ 3:05PM|#

PL-

Jack Bauer is pro-killing. He's not very pro-war, since he's always bringing down conspirators trying to start a war, but he's definitely pro-killing. He's also pro-torture.

He was fiercely loyal to President David Palmer, and is currently trying to bring down President James Logan (who tried to start a war in Central Asia, and killed David Palmer to cover it up).

As far as economics, Jack Bauer has very little use for Big Business. Jack Bauer has taken on Big Oil (when they tried to start a war in Season 2), and Big Defense Contractors (when they tried to cover up their complicity in a terrorist attack in Season 4). He's currently battling an executive from Big Nerve Gas. (Yes, really!)

I don't know whether Jack Bauer would favor drug legalization, but after arresting a drug lord with ties to terrorist groups he said "I didn't waste a yera of my life just to bring down some drug dealer. This guy's working with terrorists."

Jack Bauer is strongly in favor of transparency and honesty, and busted several of his fellow agents for taking bribes.

Jack Bauer is obviously very pro-gun. Socially he is very tolerant, at one point enlisting Arab-American civilians to help battle Big Business. (They ran a sporting goods store and he needed guns.)

Overall, Jack Bauer is indepenent and pro-violence.

|4.19.06 @ 3:24PM|#

Jason,

I understand the compromise is necessary for the viability of the sport as an entertainment product, but I liked the raw realism of the old format. No weight classes, no time limit and the only restricted moves were fish hooks and eye gouges. Now you have to glove up (which actually make the strikes more brutal), small joint manipulation is not allowed and the time limit forces you to press moves rather than wait for your opponent to make a mistake. Personally, if you miss your shoot I think you should get kicked in the head. That's what would happen on the proverbial street.

But, I understand that what we have witnessed with the evolution of MMA is a fight becoming a sport. It is a great product and about as close as you can get to a street fight in a controlled environment, but IMO it has lost some of the realistic edge it used to have. But, I guess we learned what we needed to from the original format. In a "real" fight a talented grappler will beat a talented striker nine times out of ten.

Coincidentally that's how Pro Wrestling evolved into the theater we see today. Originally guys, mostly Irish immigrants, wrestled for real in brutal yet not necessarily crowd pleasing matches. Eventually they started scripting the action because most real fights turn into two guys rolling around on the ground each waiting for the other to do something stupid. Cool for martial arts nerds like me, but not great for box office.

I'm not saying that MMA will go the way of WWE; I just find the parallel interesting.

|4.19.06 @ 3:36PM|#

ralphus,

You could never kick a down fighter in the UFC, and finger and toe manipulations were verboten. The shoot was always more effective in that format than you would think.

The rules changes are one thing, but the evolution of the fighters themselves is another. At first Joyce Gracie had a bag of tricks nobody knew how to defend. Now, everyone does. Strikers now do sprawls better than anyone else. Strikers now know how to force a clench on a failed shoot.

Gracie would never get Chuck Liddel to the ground, and he would get knocked out, and that has nothing to do with forcing separation after inactivity on the ground.

|4.19.06 @ 3:41PM|#

Jason,

That I would like to see. When is the match?

To me the Gracies pretty much nailed the best way to win a fight. If you have never seen some of the wild ass footage of when they were taking on all comers in Brazil back in the day you should hunt it down. They fight guys bigger than them, smaller than them, different styles and backgrounds all while dodging flying debris from rowdy Brazilian crowds. The old man was truly a bad ass in his day. My father had the privilege of working out with him at a clinic and said the 80 something year old dude wore his ass out.

I take Aikido myself. Not the best fighting style, but a great defend yourself and get the hell out of there style. I've played around with judo and jujitsu. Any serious MMA guy would own me, but I like to think I know enough to handle your average shmoe. But, as an Aikido guy I think the best way to win a fight is to avoid one.

I just really like the science of a fighting. What I miss about the old UFC style was that it was like a bar room "what if" argument come to life.

|4.19.06 @ 3:41PM|#

Honestly, MMA doesn't do much for me either. Give me old-fashioned stand-up boxing any day of the week. The way those muscle-bound MMA and Pride guys go down from friggin' arm punches and have such crappy defense and footwork leads me to believe that a prime Lennox Lewis with a little MMA training could take most of them out with the first shot he threw. Same with Vitali Klitschko or a prime Tyson. MMA just has better marketing in my opinion.

|4.19.06 @ 3:55PM|#

Jason,

I remember that at least in UFC 1 and 2 kicking a downed guy was fine. I remember the Sumo guy losing half his teeth when the Savat guy kicked him in the grill when he was down. But, your right about everyone dipping into the Gracie bag now. What I admire about them though has less to do with the style than with the approach. They are some patient bastards. They basically frustrate you into mistakes. Which is harder to do with the clock ticking. But again you right that a bad ass like Liddell doesn't bite on their tricks the way guys used to. The evolution of the MMA style is fascinating, but strikers had to pick up a lot more grappling tricks than grapplers had to pick up striker tricks. But, the Gracies are underrated as stand up fighters. They can toe up just as well as anyone, the difference they are looking for a takedown over a knock out.

I could talk this shit all day and we're probably boring the rest of the thread to death. I'll be sure to check out that Gracie fight coming up.

|4.19.06 @ 3:59PM|#

BTW:

I'm not an anti ground kinda guy. I prefer striking, but I like all of it. In my experience, though, the Brazilians overplayed the "90% of fights wind up on the ground" card by using the Gracie reign in early UFC as an example of what 'really works'.

In a purely martial arts sense, it does work - but so do a lot of things. Hitting someone really hard should never be discounted.

Where I diverge from jiu-jitsu as a practical self defense model is that, in isolation, it encourages you to tie up with an opponent. If the guy has a buddy, you are hosed.

Like I said, stand up like a Thai, take down like a Roman, lay on your back like a Brazilian. The best fighters can handle all three.

|4.19.06 @ 4:15PM|#

I dunno geo. Your defense looks a lot better with 12-16oz gloves than it really is, and your chin looks harder than it really is.

Boxers can do well, but they have bad habits for a three story fight (hands, feet, ground). Guys who like hooks are front foot heavy and they take abusive shots to the legs. They need a ton of wrestling and they have to avoid chokes and arm bars. Good mma strikers are really good. Arlovski is good. That Brazilian guy in Pride's middle weight class is really good.

|4.19.06 @ 4:17PM|#

"Jack Bauer has killed more than 100 terrorists and saved America 4 times (soon to be 5)."

You forgot to mention that he's come back from the dead more times than Lazarus and Jesus combined.

|4.19.06 @ 4:22PM|#

Ahh. I looked it up. UFC 3 was indeed the introduction of no kicking downed guys, no rabbit punching, no down elbows, etc.

|4.19.06 @ 4:45PM|#

thoreau, sounds like Jack is a Bull Mooser to me. Bully.

|4.19.06 @ 5:05PM|#

PL-

Jack Bauer's stances on civil liberties have also evolved. He's never been a fan of due process, but he gained a new respect for privacy rights after he had to fake his death and live off the grid to escape the wrath of the US and Chinese governments. (He pissed off the Chinese by breaking into their Consulate, and he pissed off the US by getting caught.)

However, he's still pro-torture. But he's against the sex slave trade.

|4.19.06 @ 5:09PM|#

I love boxing, but a boxing match isn't a fight in the pure sense of the word. It's a sport. It's a gentlemen's agreement that we are going to stand toe to toe and only throw punches to certain areas of the body. Because your strategic options are limited you concentrate on training to do only the things you're allowed to do. So while a boxer is a better puncher than an MMA practitioner, the MMA guy is well versed in multiple ways to inflict damage on an opponent. Lennox Lewis is used to punching a guy right in front of him. He's never had deal with someone diving at his legs or keeping him out of range with kicks. And once he's on the ground all he would be looking to do is get back on his feet where he can be effective. That opens him up to all kinds of nasty things. Now if you put an MMA striker in a boxing ring under boxing rules a trained prizefighter would dismantle him.

It's the difference between a sport and a martial art. Modern Tae Kown Do is a classic example of a well-rounded fighting style becoming more one dementional as it evolved into a competition. Fencing as well. The masters of Toledo were some of the deadliest dudes on the planet, but there are certain moves that have to go away if you want to turn a fighting style into a competition. Otherwise you run out of competitors real fast. Judo is another example. It's nothing more than the competitive style of jujitsu.

Jason,

I agree with grappling's weakness in a multiple attacker scenario. A striking or redirective style is much more practical in those settings. But jujitsu has only recently come to be primarily ground fighting. It was the fighting style of samurai on the battlefield so it has a lot of techniques that don't rely on going to the ground. The ground fighting aspect has just come to the forefront in recent years because of its effectiveness in one on one competition. But your right, if I'm fighting more than one person I'd much rather be well versed in Kenpo, Hapkido or a hard style of Aikido.

|4.19.06 @ 5:15PM|#

ralphus:

Krav Maga.

|4.19.06 @ 5:32PM|#

Jason,

Doh!

How could I leave out Jew Fu?

I wish I had a good instructor around me. The one Krav Maga guy I found near by turned out to be full of shit.

Jason Alexander is actually a Krav Maga expert. So Jack and Chuck be warned - George Costanza owns your lame asses.

In other sitcom related martial art news, Ed O'Neil has a black belt in jujitsu. So not only can Al Bundy score 4 touchdowns in one game, he can make you tap.

|4.19.06 @ 5:44PM|#

Jason Alexander is actually a Krav Maga expert. So Jack and Chuck be warned - George Costanza owns your lame asses.

That would make for a most interesting Festivus, if we adhere to the rule that Festivus is not over until the head of the household is pinned...

If Jack Bauer were the head of the household it would be Festivus every day.

In other sitcom related martial art news, Ed O'Neil has a black belt in jujitsu. So not only can Al Bundy score 4 touchdowns in one game, he can make you tap.

Al Bundy scored 4 touchdowns in one game against Chuck Norris. Jack Bauer was busy nailing the cheerleaders.

|4.19.06 @ 6:30PM|#

The Reason Pillow Girl and her Shamrock Twin could take Jack Bauer, Chuck Norris and Bruce Lee in a tag team match.

PS: I thought the Statue of Liberty was on Bedloe Island.

|4.19.06 @ 6:39PM|#

Yeah, boxing's a sport, but imagine what the version of Bernard Hopkins that reigned as MW champ for over a dozen years, who could get away with almost every foul in the book, even with boxing's strict rules, bulked up to 185 or 190 pounds, with some grappling training. A pure street fighter at heart with super accurate right hands and sneaky hooks now having free reign to fight just about as roughly as he wants. MMA fighters haven't seen the kind of punches a guy like Hopkins or Jones could throw. We're talking 25+ years of honing and perfecting those punches and the footwork to set up those punches as well as avoid the lumbering, muscle-bound guys that dominate in UFC.

Boxing's rules necessitate sharp, fast, brutally accurate punches that involve a full rotation of the body from the legs through the back to the end of the fist in the blink of an eye. Guys like Joe Louis and Kostya Tszyu more recently landed punches that only traveled a few inches and put men on their backs. No winding up, no telegraphed shots, no arm punches.

|4.19.06 @ 6:48PM|#

"However, he's still pro-torture. But he's against the sex slave trade."

Is his codename Mr. Cheap Applause?

|4.19.06 @ 6:52PM|#

The Reason Pillow Girl and her Shamrock Twin could take Jack Bauer, Chuck Norris and Bruce Lee in a tag team match.

Kinky!!!

|4.19.06 @ 7:25PM|#

I was going to second Jason Ligon about grappling vs. multiple opponents, but I see that the point is generally agreed to. I do agree that in a strict one-on-one, it's probably a great idea, but if you don't know if your opponent's buddy is about to come around the corner...

I recently watched some aikido training videos, and while the techniques looked very cool, they also struck me as something you'd have to apply very fast, especially against a savvy opponent. If you're using both your hands to control your opponent's right hand, isn't a quick opponent going to take the opportunity to stick his left index finger in your eye? But then maybe I'm biased as a Shotokan student...the philosophy never got much more complicated than "move fast, smash your opponent in a vulnerable place with one hard technique, and keep moving."

Everybody should read the Fairbairn & Sykes manual, though. Interesting to see what they recommend for street fighting, taking out sentries, escaping from being held at gunpoint, etc.

|4.19.06 @ 7:30PM|#

Some pretty knowledgeable folks regarding martial arts on this forum...

My opinion is that there isn't a style out there with nothing to offer in the way of self-defense, in my opinion. Even tai chi has a combat form (I think the super-slow movements of its practitioners put their opponents into a coma-like sleep or something).

Krav Maga and jiu jitsu are pretty reality-centric in their original forms. My understanding is that jiu jitsu was developed to enable a samurai whose weapon had been lost or broken to kill/incapacitate with his bare hands, take the weapon away from his (now dead) enemy and keep killing.

Brazilian jiu-jitsu is ground-centric, true, but the real thing (as supposedly tested on POWs during WW2 to ensure it actually broke bones/incapacitated/killed) is certainly brutal enough to wreck most opponents.

Judo OTOH, not so much. But like high school wrestsling, it's a fun sport if you like rolling around on the ground with other dudes. Me? I rely on ching-ching-pow - the sound my new sidearm would make if I were to chamber a round and kill my attacker.

|4.19.06 @ 7:34PM|#

Thoreau,
No. Kinky would be making it a mud rasslin match and replacing the mud with creamed corn.

Still, My money would be on the twins.

|4.19.06 @ 9:36PM|#

I'm pretty random in my history. I started as a TKD kid right before things got all Olympic-y. Egad is it silly now.

The things I keep from TKD: footwork, snapping hip rotations on strikes and kicks, a variety of low kicks.

The things I tossed: the preponderance of high kicks, the frequency of kicks, the tendency to kick in ineffectual ways, the bladed stance (the boxing square up is much better), and - most of all, the HORRIFIC blocking and defensive hands concept.

While I was a TKD kid, I trained with kenpo guys, JKD guys, and I dabbled in hapkido, pressure points and various flavors of kung fu and I had a sparring buddy who was a shotokan guy. No, I didn't spend much time in any of these.

Out of that mess I note: pressure points are no basis for a martial art, though they can be useful on the ground when you get in trouble; hapkido is incredibly difficult to execute in real time, though if someone ever grabs your wrist in a bar, you will own them; I liked jkd quite a bit and thought the whole system would be generally effective; progressive kenpo has great pace but crappy power - it is death by 1000 jabs and a straight boxing cross up the middle is an incredibly effective counter to the whole system; Chinese styles tend to have way too much unnecessary movement and bad footwork.

More recently I was in a very good situation when a good kick boxer with a muay thai background and a big proponent of 'do what works' opened a Krav Maga school. One of the other students was a great straight up boxer, and we imported guys to help us with ground work. It was awesome. Alas, that school closed. Now, I grapple with my wife (she is into it, too), and we hit pads along with the Bas Rutten Mixed Martial Arts Workout.

Sigh.

|4.20.06 @ 12:18AM|#

Me? I rely on ching-ching-pow - the sound my new sidearm would make if I were to chamber a round and kill my attacker.

Rob you are a bad ass...and if had the power I would make hit and runs bad ass of the month.

|4.20.06 @ 12:45AM|#

So a libertarian site attracts a lot of martial arts kooks. Go figure.

JD,

I had a similar opinion of Aikido techniques until I got into a class. I can tell you from personal experience that trying to change the direction of your attack in the middle of a wrist technique, any technique for that matter, just makes things much harder on you. Plus, you don't really need both hands to execute an effective wrist throw.

The hard thing to grasp about Aikido for many hard style practitioners is that it is an exclusively a defensive art. The most important thing you learn is how to step off line and catch your opponent off balance. In Aikido you are reacting to your opponent's balance and momentum. Fighting a well-practiced Aikidoka is tough because they aren't really fighting you. They're just helping you go the direction your body was already heading. I have been thrown halfway across a dojo with ever really feeling my opponent do anything. The only thing I can compare it to is that feeling you get when you go to push open a door and someone opens it from the other side. You have no idea how much energy you are projecting into that door until it�s not there to accept it. Instead of meeting force with force - you punch I block, you grab I wrestle � you meet force with no force � you punch I move, you grab I become a wet noodle. It�s not magic, its applied physics.

By no means am I saying Aikido is the end all and be all. But it has a lot of great principles that can be applied to most styles. I recommend anyone who�s really into martial arts check out a class. Your mind will be blown at least once I promise. But, you have to be careful when you choose a school. Lots of Aikido dojos are home to hokey mysticism crap and techniques that are more showy than practical. But there are some very good practical styles out there like Tomiki Ru and Aki Kai.

Like I said before, it may not be the best fighting style, but it is one of the best defend yourself and get the hell out of there styles. Although, my classes have included DEA agents and psych ward nurses who have had plenty of opportunities apply what they�ve learned. I�ve also had classmates apply it in the proverbial bar fight. They said the biggest benefit is that you don�t get arrested because you didn�t start it and the pool table or the barroom floor does your dirty work for you.

How would it fare against a trained fighter? I don�t know. Depends on how well trained both sides are. But it certainly is effective against your average schmoe - especially ones that don�t know how to take a fall or control their balance.

|4.20.06 @ 1:11PM|#

joshua corning - Uh, thanks, I think. You do realize that last line was in jest and that there are guys WAY badder than me on this thread alone, right? Since I'm going on 36 now, it's been at least 11 years since I suffered the delusion that I was capable of being the baddest and leave that up to Chuck Norris.

"Until a man is twenty-five, he still thinks, every so often, that under the right circumstances he could be the baddest motherfucker in the world. If I moved to a martial arts monastery in China and studied real hard for ten years. If my family was wiped out by Colombian drug dealers and I swore myself to revenge. If I got a fatal disease, had one year to live,devoted it to wiping out street crime. If I just dropped out and devoted my life to being bad." - from Neal Stephenson�s "Snow Crash"