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David Weigel | April 18, 2006

Nick Gillespie translates some of the rhetoric of English-only activists.

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|4.18.06 @ 4:48PM|#

"about 80 percent of third-generation Latinos in the United States speak English as their dominant language�and exactly 0 percent speak Spanish as their dominant language."

what is the dominant language of the other 20% of 3rd generation latinos?

|4.18.06 @ 4:49PM|#

never mind, I RTFA

|4.18.06 @ 4:51PM|#

All the greatest minds of the second, and probably last, American century

Shouldn't that read "third"? Or am I starting another "when did the millennium begin" argument?

|4.18.06 @ 4:56PM|#

From the article:

80% English dominant
20% bilingual

Baylen Linnekin|4.18.06 @ 5:08PM|#

Fucking brilliant.

|4.18.06 @ 5:16PM|#

Shouldn't that read "third"? Or am I starting another "when did the millennium begin" argument?

We are in our third century of existence, but he's referencing the 20th century as the American Century (as that is when the U.S. arose as the dominant power) and implying that the 21st century is the American Century so far as well.

|4.18.06 @ 5:19PM|#

Anyone read the VDARE link? Why is an anti-immigration site named after the first child born to immigrant parents since the Bering Strait returned to a liquid state?

And don't try to tell me they weren't illegals. I'll be damned if the natives invited them to compete for the scarce indigenous resources.

|4.18.06 @ 5:21PM|#

I find it pretty depressing that after three generations 20% of hispanic immigrants still don't speak English as a first language. Not speaking English as a first langauge in this country is A OK as long as you don't plan on doing anything except clean hotel rooms and pick tomatoes your entire life. Pushing immigrants to learn English is in their interest.

|4.18.06 @ 5:24PM|#

Nick and I are both part of the problem. We're both descended from swarthy Catholic immigrants with linguistic and cultural roots in the Mediterranean. We're both descended from people who came here with limited education, seeking only manual labor and a haven from a comparatively poor and corrupt home country.

Even worse, my grandfather (born here, but descended from and raised by folks with icky Mediterranean complexions and backgrounds) married a...CANADIAN!

And if that weren't bad enough, consider how my grandmother was raised: Her family moved back and forth between the US and Canada while she was growing up. Some of her siblings were born here, some in Canada. They just moved to whatever town her father could find work in, regardless of which side of the border that happened to be.

Can you imagine it? A swarthy guy marrying a woman who didn't care in the least about borders, laws, and sovereignty?

And here's the scariest part: These two subversives, who posed such a threat to our culture and way of life, were actually trusted to serve as officers in the US Army during WWII. Just think about it: Our national security was entrusted to those people!

|4.18.06 @ 5:25PM|#

I certainly agree with the opposition to declaring an official language, to the extent that such a declaration would take force against the private sector in some way.

On the other hand, during the period in US history when we were successfully assimilating immigrants (a period that I believe ended when we started erecting nationality-based [racially-based, in truth] quotas and other barriers to entry), were gov't affairs being conducted in Swedish, Italian, Chinese and so forth?

I guess that I'm not too deeply troubled at the idea that signing up for the dole, or voting in elections, or serving in the US military should all be activities that are carried out in American-variant English.

At the other end of the spectrum of political correctness, we have county commissioners out in my neck of the woods advertising a serious posting for a Klingon interpreter. Where do you draw the line, I wonder?

|4.18.06 @ 5:30PM|#

I wonder why these guys don't act on the real threat to America, from Foreign Food. The Continental Baking Company, maker of All American Wonder Bread and Twinkies, is in bankruptcy while the country is infilrated with bagels, tortillas, pita, naan . . . It makes me so ill I could throw up that burrito I had for lunch.

|4.18.06 @ 5:31PM|#

John,

What if that 20% speaks English as a second language? Would they still be banished to the fields?

There are many small business owners in this country who don't speak English as a first language, but can pick up enough of it to get by in Whitey's world. That doesn't depress me in the least.

What does depress me are those Americans upset about not enough people in this country learning English while barely using it properly themselves. How many "nativists" are bilingual, and why not? The immigrants are expected to be. Would it destroy the precious social fabric if we bothered to learn a few phrases of basic Spanish? Of course not.

KipEsquire|4.18.06 @ 5:48PM|#

Gillespie has it exactly backwards: the burden of proof is on new immigrants to explain exactly why they should be offered a special linguistic accommodation, at taxpayer expense, that throughout our history we never saw fit to offer any other immigrant group and that has no basis in economics or common sense.

|4.18.06 @ 5:55PM|#

Smash the spicks over the head with some freedom fries! America FUCK YEA! Republicans rule!

GOD BLESS AMERIKKKA!

|4.18.06 @ 6:00PM|#

SPD,

Lots of people are not bilingual because they have no intentions of ever living overseas. We are playing with fire through biligqualism. There is no guarentee that English will remain the dominant language in future generations. Spanish could very easily replace it or worse yet settle in as a rival language. Living in a bilingual society is damned ineffecient. Things work a hell of a lot better if everyone has a common language. Without a common language, the best you can hope for is something like Quebec or Belgium were the country is split and both sides spend innumerable time and energy trying to preserve their respective cultures. The worst case is that you get real ethnic division and hatred like the Balkins. Either way, you are better off with a common language.

|4.18.06 @ 6:01PM|#

"Anyone read the VDARE link? Why is an anti-immigration site named after the first child born to immigrant parents since the Bering Strait returned to a liquid state?"

Same reason that VDARE's founder is an immigrant from Canada by way of Britain.

Its because VDARE is less anti-immigration and more anti-*non white* immigration.

Any site that gets a pompus dick like Jared Taylor (who despite all of his nativism was raised in Japan) doesn't deserve the time of day.

|4.18.06 @ 6:04PM|#

Correction on my last post, it should read

"Any site that gets a pompus, racist dick like Jared Taylor to write for them".

|4.18.06 @ 6:13PM|#

"Why is an anti-immigration site named after the first child born to immigrant parents since the Bering Strait returned to a liquid state?"

Actually, if they were naming after that, the site name would have to be some variation of "Snorri Karlsefnisson": http://www.infohub.com/Articles/20000327.html

|4.18.06 @ 6:26PM|#

In this country all immigrants descendents have eventually learned English, for well over 200 years, without needing to amend the f*ing constitution. And it's absurd nonsense that bilingualism causes economic issues--maybe Belgium is screwed up, but Switzerland has done well for several hundred years with four official languages. There's no more need to force folks to speak English than there is to force them to wear ties. Somehow they learn how anyway...
And what if our great- great- greatgrandchildren learned Spanish from their classmates--what would be so terrible about that? I'd be more worried about what English speakers like Timothy McVeigh and Al Sharpton are doing to our freedoms than what recent, successful Korean immigrants are doing.

fyodor|4.18.06 @ 6:31PM|#

Living in a bilingual society is damned ineffecient.

John, I think you're conflating bilingual societies with bilingual people. If 20% of the society spoke one language and the other 80% another, that could be a problem (not one the government should be doing anything about, and not one that can't be overcome and dealt with, but that's another matter). But the survey found that in the third generation, 20% of Latino immigrants were bilingual. That implies to me that they speak both languages fluently, which means they can converse fine with people speaking English or Spanish. Bilingualism in an individual increases efficiency. I don't see a problem with that at all. Well, the only problem I can see is that maybe it decreases the speed with which future immigrants need to learn English. But I think that's a stretch. If it has any effect of that sort, it would be small and incremental. And if in 200 years the US is speaking predominently Spanish, so what?

|4.18.06 @ 6:34PM|#

I find it pretty depressing that after three generations 20% of hispanic immigrants still don't speak English as a first language

I did too until I read the linked article because I wanted to find out exactly which non-Spanish language those 20% managed to acquire as their first language.

Turns out that those 20% speak both English and Spanish. Not depressing at all, unless you are the first genration grandparent I suppose.

Of course if I was too lazy to check out the link I'd have found out the answer anyway by reading someone's post that had the answer.

At least biologist is a speed reader anyway and found the answer one minute after he posted his query. :o

|4.18.06 @ 6:38PM|#

Fyodor,

If you have large numbers of people who speak Spanish as a first language, at some point you reach a critical mass and you wind up with it being the dominant language in some areas and English the dominant language in others. That is where the problems arise. There isn't a problem is Spanish becomes dominant like English, but it won't crowd out English completely. What happens instead is that you end up with a situation like Belgium. That is bad. The country needs a linguna Franca. Ultimately, the world not just the United States runs on English. The quicker immigrants learn it, the better off they are. Not supporting English is just a backdoor way to make sure immigrants don't fully integrate and succeed in society.

Warren|4.18.06 @ 6:48PM|#

One common language I'm afraid we'll never get.
Oh, why can't the English learn to set
A good example to people whose
English is painful to your ears?
The Scotch and the Irish leave you close to tears.
There even are places where English completely disappears.
In America, they haven't used it for years!

If every American had to be fluent in English, 98% of us would have to go back to school.

|4.18.06 @ 6:49PM|#

When Nick is on his game he's untouchable.

|4.18.06 @ 6:50PM|#

The country needs a linguna Franca. Ultimately, the world not just the United States runs on English

The world didn't end when the lingua franca switched to English from French. Why would it end if it switched from English to Spanish?

|4.18.06 @ 6:53PM|#

It wouldn't Jennifer. The problem is the transition from one to the other. If you could flip a switch and have everyone speaking Spanish, you might have a point. The problem is that you can't flip a switch and you end up with a mess in between and no common language.

fyodor|4.18.06 @ 6:55PM|#

John,

On what basis are you speaking of bilingual people as speaking Spanish as a first language? Bilingual means they speak both fluently, right? Therefore, why would they segregate themselves from English speakers?

And what is so terrible about Belgium's situation? Maybe they bitch about each other, but is that SO bad? I know what happened in the former Yugoslavia, but that seems like a very different situation, where different peoples who never wanted to live together in the first place were united by a strong man, so when he left the scene trouble was inevitable. Same thing happening right now in Iraq, where language is not an issue at all.

|4.18.06 @ 6:56PM|#

*Same thing happening right now in Iraq, where language is not an issue at all.*

Actually, language is an issue in Iraq. The Kurds speak Kurdish, not Arabic--its the main reason they have been trying to get their own nation since the end of WWI.

|4.18.06 @ 6:59PM|#

If you could flip a switch and have everyone speaking Spanish, you might have a point. The problem is that you can't flip a switch and you end up with a mess in between and no common language.

No, it will be more evolutionary. Chances are that before long the majority of Americans will be bilingual, able to speak Spanish and English equally well. It's not like we're all going to wake up one day and suddenly find that everything is in Spanish and so people like us won't be able to get by.

fyodor|4.18.06 @ 7:06PM|#

ESB,

My mistake, at least partly. Yes, of course there is a Kurdish language. It would probably take a bit of research to know how many Kurds do or don't speak Arabic. But then, the greatest violence we see right now is between the Shiite and the Sunni Arabs.

The larger point is that the problems of the former Yugoslavia were caused by forcing distinct peoples into the same nation, not immigration. And I don't see how the language differences in Canada and Belgium (neither of which were caused by immigration, either) amount to more than obnoxious squabbling.

|4.18.06 @ 7:06PM|#

Kurdish is an indo-european language, as opposed to Arabic which is a semetic language. Of course the fact that the Arabs have been trying to kill the Kurds for the last few thousand years has something to do with their wanting to have their own country.

Fyodor,

I take the statistic to mean 20% still speak Spanish as a first language after the third generation. How many of that 20% are truely biligual I don't know. To speak Spanish as your first language, means you grew up speaking it at home and not English. If you get to a point where the majority of household speak Spanish, people stop speaking English in public and the English speakers have to learn Spanish to get by. Not only is that completely unfair to natives who are forced to learn a language despite never leaving home or bothering anyone, it also creates a bilingual country because other areas will remain English speaking. Granted, Belguim is still a nice place, but it would be a hell of a lot nicer if the Walloons and the Flemish weren't at each other's throats over street signs and restaurant menus.

Yes, there is a lot more to conflicts like Iraq and the Balkins than language, but conflicts have to start somewhere and ones like that ussually take a long time to develop. I would prefer not to start down that road by loosing the common language.

|4.18.06 @ 7:16PM|#

How many "nativists" are bilingual, and why not? The immigrants are expected to be.

I would expect that, if I were to move to Mexico, I'd be expected to learn Spanish. I wouldn't expect everyone there to learn English to accommodate me. The issue isn't with "nativists," it's with people like me, assimilationists.

Bilingual means they speak both fluently, right?

That's the dictionary definition. As a practical matter, around these parts, it simply is a euphemism for "Spanish-speaking." For example, I am not considered to be bilingual despite speaking English, German, French, classical Hebrew, and Yiddish.

|4.18.06 @ 7:23PM|#

"But then, the greatest violence we see right now is between the Shiite and the Sunni Arabs."

Thats true, and the reason there is violence between them is because each one wants to impose their religion on the other as the official state religion.

Likewise, trying to make a certain language the official one when there is a minority that speaks another language is a great recipie for more strife; not less.

Spain didn't have any issues with its Basque population until its most recent Constitution, passed in the 1970s, made Castillian Spanish the official language.

|4.18.06 @ 7:27PM|#

An important point.
Most (a vast majority) of the world is bilingual.
Only a few select places, like America, have large numbers of people handicapped by being able to use only one language. It the norm for a society to negotiate many languages. We are the exception.

|4.18.06 @ 7:47PM|#

The problem is that you can't flip a switch and you end up with a mess in between and no common language.

isn't that exacly the situation that created the english language?? I am just saying...

|4.18.06 @ 8:05PM|#

SY said:
"For example, I am not considered to be bilingual despite speaking English, German, French, classical Hebrew, and Yiddish."

So I guess it went right over your head, SY, the times here I've said, "Si, Cy."

Seriously, the moral to this little story is to think twice before pissing off the grandson of
Nicola Guida.

|4.18.06 @ 8:18PM|#

Spain and the Basques are a good example of biligualism gone crazy. Yes, they finally got rid of the violence after some serious language compromise. The point is that you don't want to get into that situation. Spain was forced into it because the Basques were already there. You people seem to think that it is a good idea to allow a Basque like situation to arise where currently none exists. Lets avoid that and stay one language. Yes, the U.S. is rare in that regard and very lucky in that regard.

|4.18.06 @ 8:19PM|#

Jennifer said:
"No, it will be more evolutionary. Chances are that before long the majority of Americans will be bilingual, able to speak Spanish and English equally well. It's not like we're all going to wake up one day and suddenly find that everything is in Spanish and so people like us won't be able to get by."

Reminds me of a wonderful evening the Little Woman and I had with two Canadian couples, sharing a table at a French restaurant in the French West Indies.

Struggling with communicating is what LIFE is about. The words themselves will always be secondary.

|4.18.06 @ 8:23PM|#

http://blog.tomevslin.com/

Scroll down a few posts and you get to this quote:

Amnesty for European Settlers

For some reason historians appear to be ignoring the partial amnesty granted to European settlers of North America in the mid 1600s by the United Tribes of America (UTA). Very few of these settlers had properly issued visas for the areas they were settling. In fact, those who landed at Plymouth Rock had only paperwork for a colony in Virginia!

Opponents of amnesty among the tribes were apoplectic. Chief Lou the Dawber of the Conestoga NoNos was said to be so angry that his usual smoke signals were sent without benefit of any fire other than his own rage. Representatives of the Mighty Hunter�s Union (MHU) pointed out that the wages for hunters were being depressed by the settlers� unfair labor practice of keeping food animals in pens from which they could be harvested without the benefit of any hunt at all. Similarly, the Eagle-Eyed Gatherers Guild (EEGG) testified that their unemployment rate was soaring because the settlers stubbornly planted foodstuffs near their kitchen doors rather than seeking food where ever it chose to grow.

Many brought up the sad results of the amnesty earlier granted to New England settlers by the Patuxet Tribe. Without authorization a member of that tribe � Squanto � even showed the settlers better methods for living off the land. The immediate result was OK: the settlers invited Squanto to dinner. But afterwards the results were terrible: more settlers. The missionary efforts of the Powhatan Pocahontas had similar bad results.

The new immigrants (with the possible exception of John Smith) refused to learn the native languages of their new home. They insisted on education in their own language. They put up signage in barbarian English where natives easily could read nature�s own trail markers.

There�s no question that the newcomers were bad for the environment. And no question that they�ve overrun the place.

|4.18.06 @ 8:43PM|#

gee Happyjuggler,

Things didn't seem to turn out so well for the Indians. Perhaps they would have been better off if they had had the power to wipe the settlers off the map as soon as they arrived. Perhaps the lesson to be learned is that allowing hordes of people into your country who have no intention of assimilating into your culture isn't such a good idea.

|4.18.06 @ 8:57PM|#

I take the statistic to mean 20% still speak Spanish as a first language after the third generation

And yet, lines like and exactly 0 percent speak Spanish as their dominant language. would suggest otherwise. Either English was their first language and they came by Spanish incidentally or they became skilled enough in English for Spanish to become secondary. Reading the article works better than reading into the article, John.

There is no guarentee that English will remain the dominant language in future generations. Spanish could very easily replace it or worse yet settle in as a rival language.

Again, the fact that 80% of Third-Generation Latinos don't even speak Spanish suggests that Spanish isn't going to take over the United States any time soon. Xenophobia tinged with racist undertones, however, will always be with us.

|4.18.06 @ 9:00PM|#

Some wisdom comes to us from a cartoon

|4.18.06 @ 9:01PM|#

Things didn't seem to turn out so well for the Indians.

Mmm, I think the whole genocide thing had as much to do with that as Europeans showing up. If the two groups had tried to assimilate with each other rather than one trying to wipe the other out, things might have turned out better for all of us.

|4.18.06 @ 9:36PM|#

Shem,
Neither the English model nor the Spanish model in the New World, was a "model."

One can still hold out hope that assimilation will happen with minimal collateral damage,
because assimilation will always be happening.

It has to do with sex.
(Everything has to do with sex with me.)

|4.18.06 @ 9:37PM|#

So, 20% of 3rd generation Latinos are fluent in both English and Spanish.

The only thing that's depressing about that statistic is the 80% who are (apparently) monolingual. And the vast majority of the rest of us (myself included) who are only competent in one language.

|4.18.06 @ 9:41PM|#

A number of white settlers in America did assimilate to native tribes.

|4.18.06 @ 10:03PM|#

Oi, un nipote italiano che non parla italiano. Che peccato! Probabilmente la colpa dei nonni irlandesi--Gillespie e' un nome irlandese, no?--stronzi che sono. Cazzo! Stupidi irlandesi.

|4.18.06 @ 10:12PM|#

Shem,

Maybe I did misread the statistic. Truthfully, all of the second and third generation Mexican immigrants I know and I know a few living as do in San Antonio, are more American than I am. I do think that immigrants are assimilating more than not. I also however think that there is a small but militant group of leftists and "latino activists" who don't like the fact that they are assimilating and would like to make language and cultural ghettos. For that reason, I think that we should alway be vigilent about assimilation.

|4.18.06 @ 10:32PM|#

Another point that is missed here is that English is a better language than any other. It is richer in the number of words, and it is richer because it is a mish-mash of other languages. There is nothing wrong with Spansih, or French, but they are pale in comparison to English.

|4.18.06 @ 10:41PM|#

The Indians did not get wiped from the face of the earth. Their genetic material is part of our society. My father was a half-breed.

American Indian culture has been over-shadowed, mostly, but so what. Culture is a fleeting thing that is always changing.

The gladiator games in the Roman colliseum are just stories in history books now. Maybe Guido above should be out marching and demanding that we respect his Roman heritage. As far as Italian (Roman) culture goes, I prefer the Godfather (book and movies).

|4.18.06 @ 10:50PM|#

Only a few select places, like America, have large numbers of people handicapped by being able to use only one language. It the norm for a society to negotiate many languages. We are the exception.

Try traveling outside of major commercial centers. Or in places like China (with 1/3 of he world's people), travelling IN major commercial centers. When I got lost in a little town in Czech a couple months ago, I couldn't find anyone who could speak German despite Austria being about 2km away...

|4.18.06 @ 11:12PM|#

Christ, it's bad enough that we have to eat foreign food, live in states with Spanish-derived names, and answer that extra question about which language to use at the ATM. (Thought experiment: How much is that extra second or two of time slowing down the U.S. economy and driving down our productivity, precisely at the moment when the Chinese are breathing down our necks like a bunch of post-industrial railroad coolies? You can be damn sure that the Chinese government doesn't allow ATM users to pick their own language.)

I agree entirely! Wait, was that supposed to be ironic?

|4.18.06 @ 11:16PM|#

Moim zdaniem wszyscy powinni mowic tylko po polsku. Jezyk angielski jest zbyt trudny. Kultura polska jest na bardziej wysokim poziomie niz kultura amerykanska, czy mozna nawet mowic o kulturze amerykanskiej.

|4.18.06 @ 11:22PM|#

Lama lo ivrit? Hashem hu medaber ivrit.

|4.18.06 @ 11:34PM|#

No, no. La lengua espa�ola es la lengua del futuro, sobre todo en Estados Unidos. Casi todos los gringos entienden espa�ol.

|4.18.06 @ 11:36PM|#

Lo Ivrit, Ivris!

I can't get over Ashkenazi.

And to my Czech friends, Nazdar curaku!

|4.18.06 @ 11:39PM|#

Sy-

Hag sameah!

|4.19.06 @ 12:13AM|#

It's almost over. Just one more box of matzo until we can have chametz again.

|4.19.06 @ 12:16AM|#

"Moim zdaniem wszyscy powinni mowic tylko po polsku. Jezyk angielski jest zbyt trudny. Kultura polska jest na bardziej wysokim poziomie niz kultura amerykanska, czy mozna nawet mowic o kulturze amerykanskiej."

exactly what I what I was thinking! Of course, that was AFTER all those drinks.

|4.19.06 @ 12:46AM|#

No, no. La lengua espa�ola es la lengua del futuro, sobre todo en Estados Unidos. Casi todos los gringos entienden espa�ol.

Comment by: Julio at April 18, 2006 11:34 PM

Say, Julio, would that be Estados Unidos de Mexico del Norte that you had in mind? I wouldn't bet alot of money on it, were I you.

|4.19.06 @ 2:34AM|#

Thanks Nick,
It's in linguistic anthropology that I found the most support (in the field) for individual-choice

Sandy|4.19.06 @ 6:06AM|#

Polski tez jest za trudny. Nawet nie moze pisac caly litery na zwyklym keyboardze.

Or something like that, don't have a grammar book handy.

Anyway, in regard to smappy and happyjuggler0's points, you can fly your illegal immigrant status even as a white dude with this snazzy T-shirt, or podkoszolek as we would say in the One True Jezyk.

|4.19.06 @ 6:14AM|#

Nice article. I sincerely hope that there isn't anybody stupid enough to not realize it's satirical.

|4.19.06 @ 10:08AM|#

Sandy:

Trzeba po prostu kupić nowy keyboard. Musimy OCALIĆ POLSKOŚĆ. Niech żyje POLSKOŚĆ! Down with the Anglo bigots!

|4.19.06 @ 12:19PM|#

Sy,

Don't let your anecdotes fool you. Just because the people don't share a language you expect or can use, the majority of the world lives in multilingual communities. The rates of multilingualism, of course, do increase in the larger communities. This is true even in the US (ride the train out to Coney Island sometime).

A gross guide to the distribution of languages.

http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/fields/2098.html

fyodor|4.19.06 @ 12:19PM|#

John,

Spain and the Basques are a good example of biligualism gone crazy.

Another fine example of a people being subverted by another that doesn't necessarily have a whit to do with immigration. All the examples you've given are more analagous to our co-existence with our American Indian natives than those freely choosing to come here.

I also however think that there is a small but militant group of leftists and "latino activists" who don't like the fact that they are assimilating and would like to make language and cultural ghettos. For that reason, I think that we should alway be vigilent about assimilation.

How do you be "vigilent about assimiliation"?? As the stats show, it happens on its own just fine, thank you. Regarding the leftists of whom you speak, I think the point to learn from their existence is to be vigilent about stupidity.

|4.19.06 @ 5:58PM|#

I say we split the difference and make Latin the official language of the U.S. That way, all our subcultures can join together in the harmony of learning Latin.