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David Weigel | April 17, 2006

Jeff A. Taylor looks to our 42nd president for compromise on the immigration issue.

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|4.17.06 @ 5:15PM|#

Outstanding article. My feelings exactly. We continually hear about all the potential cures, but I have yet to hear any symptoms of the disease.

|4.17.06 @ 5:21PM|#

Jeff:

Great article.

|4.17.06 @ 5:50PM|#

Jeff sells Official English short if the only reason he can think of to support it is to shine a night light on the assimilation bogey man.

More than any other country, America means citizens have a duty to participate in the national conversation about democratic governance. This works best when we can understand each other clearly, and be understood. And that understanding happens best when everybody is speaking the same language.

|4.17.06 @ 6:37PM|#

|4.17.06 @ 6:39PM|#

"More than any other country, America means citizens have a duty to participate in the national conversation about democratic governance."

Huh?

|4.17.06 @ 6:51PM|#

Uh, John people ARE concerned about the English thing. Polling numbers reflect that. I just heard a woman go off on radio talk show about how she couldn't order a roast beef sammich the way she wanted it because of Spanish-speaking kitchen staff. She, not me, directly tied it to this wave of immigrants getting "special treatment" unlike her Ellis Island grandmother who tried to learn English.

This is the crux of the issue. This wave of immigrants is getting off easy. They are gypping the rest of us. No special rights. If you listen you hear it over and over.

|4.17.06 @ 6:52PM|#

Jeff-Bob,

Pay no attention to the (mostly-legal) Asian immigrants who learn English quickly and fill the rosters of US colleges of Science, Engineering, and Medicine, because that's not happening.

Viva la Raza, Hombre !

|4.17.06 @ 7:02PM|#

Jeff,

Absolutely it is a concern, but you seem to be argueing that we should just say "English English" until the heat is off but never really do anything about it. That is what Clinton did on nearly every social issue sans welfare reform. Say a few tough worded but meaningless things like "school uniforms" or "mend it don't end it" and then in reality let things go merrily on as they are. That doesn't strike me as much of a sollution. Moreover, it will just make people more angry and anti-immigrant once they realize they have been fed a bunch of soundbites with no real policy changes.

Tim Cavanaugh|4.17.06 @ 7:18PM|#

Pay no attention to the (mostly-legal) Asian immigrants who learn English quickly and fill the rosters

Children of Asian immigrants, maybe. Where I live you can easily spend a whole day walking around town and not hear a word of anything but Chinese. You haven't seen the inability to speak English in action until you've seen a bunch of Chinese ladies not comprehending a bus driver telling them they can't ride the bus without paying.

|4.17.06 @ 7:25PM|#

Why not let the market be the motivation to learn English? There is a very real economic ceiling to anyone who cannot or will not learn English. If someone won't learn, why not leave them be? Their own financial prospects are the most hurt by the language barrier.

|4.17.06 @ 7:25PM|#

English today, English tomorrow, English forever. English. English. English.

Lie back and think of English.

But wait -- isn't 'English' just another word for 'spin'?

|4.17.06 @ 7:37PM|#

Tim,

In my experience, I think you are correct about older Chinese immigrants. The older Chinese immigrant are absolutely befuddled by English. But their first generation children and even children who came with their parents on the way learn English quickly.

Yes, I've seen this in action. My wife is generation 0.5 Chinese.

|4.17.06 @ 8:21PM|#

why again is it bad mojo for conservatives to point out the mexican flags but it doesn't matter what is going on in the mind of those waving them?

It is the same thing isn't it? If one is wrong then they both are wrong and if one is right then both are right.

|4.17.06 @ 8:38PM|#

I axed my excellent buddy from the workplace, Waki Paki, when he thought Dubya would begin nuking Iran.
He got a little nostalgic, in his waki way, saying, when he first came to this country (during the Jimmy Carter hostage crisis), he was jarred by seeing so many bumper stickers: NUKE IRAN.
Now, after all these years of bumpy "assimilation" for himself and his lovely family, the chances are pretty good the US REALLY WILL nuke Iran.

That's progress?

And Tim Cavanaugh,
Thanks for making the point I've observed for years as one who has specifically, as a volunteer, tried to teach English to immigrants.
My favorite, current example is a former student of mine named Sek from western Africa. I see him regularly manning his tabletop of sunglasses and whatnot here in Sinincincinnati. As a typical African, he can get by in so many languages... the typical US citizen cannot fathom. At the same time, he will never grok English.
The US is blessed to have his leathery hide here rather than there.
Viva Sek!

|4.17.06 @ 9:39PM|#

This article is bad even by Reason standards. Yeah, Jeff, let's just lie to everyone and throw them some boob bait, rahter than actually addressing people's concerns. That is a good idea. It will solve the immigration problem just like school uniforms fixed the education system.

So, John, what is the "immigration problem" as it stands now? I am waiting for one plausible reason as to why I should be concerned regarding the status quo.

|4.17.06 @ 9:41PM|#

At the same time, he will never grok English.

Mr. Ruthless,

You get an "F" for mixing tenses, and an "A" for properly using the word "grok" in a sentence.

|4.17.06 @ 9:51PM|#

Sister Jesus Joseph,
Are/were you any relation to Sistah Souljah?

|4.17.06 @ 10:07PM|#

Immigrants. Fah!

I say, round'em up and send'em back, and their children too. All 300 million of'em.

~~~

I agree with the flag thing though, it's not the Mexican flag that drives me crazy though. It's these damn Eyetalians I've got around here. Every damn one of'em seems to have an Eyetalian flag on their cars. Bastiges.

Bet the native Americans wish they had been more selective in their immigration policies, don't let the damn Latinos due to us what we did to them!

|4.17.06 @ 10:39PM|#

Children of Asian immigrants, maybe.

Precisely. It's a temporary problem, repeated over and over with each wave of non-English speaking immigrant group. The same will happen with Latinos, unfortunately more slowly because the number of Latin American immigrants is large enough to support a more insular subculture for the time being, but how many Spanish speaking immigrants who intend to stay in the U.S. don't want their children to learn English?

On the other hand, of course English speaking should be encouraged and non-English should not be officially encouraged and in most cases officially discouraged. Beyond that, this is a major non-issue.

|4.17.06 @ 10:46PM|#

I agree with the flag thing though, it's not the Mexican flag that drives me crazy though. It's these damn Eyetalians I've got around here. Every damn one of'em seems to have an Eyetalian flag on their cars. Bastiges.

Dude you don't even know...and what i am talking about is not mexican flags or italian flags or what ever forign flag you can come up with.

what i am talkin about is those god damn fucking STARS AND BARS confederate flags I see every goddamn where.

The worse of it is i live in fucking WASHINGTON STATE. What the hell!!!..go back to Kansas you godamn red neck okies and take Dixie with ya...that bitch gave me the clap.

Rich Ard|4.17.06 @ 11:07PM|#

I say we keep all the mexican flags and send all the stars 'n' bars clubbers packin'.

TLB|4.18.06 @ 12:03AM|#

Jeff Taylor's big empty gesture is such a good idea that I'm sure millions of Americans will come to completely ignore the hundreds of thousands of foreign citizens who are marching in our streets demanding rights to which they aren't entitled.

In other countries when foreign citizens start marching in the streets that results in some form of either surrender or military response. Not so here! Libertarians commentators are proposing instead big empty gestures while allowing a de facto invasion to continue.

---
Maybe one of these days a libertarian commentator will try to answer this question:

If we absolutely had to deport 1 million illegal aliens within 6 months, how exactly would we do that? Also list your contingency plans.

|4.18.06 @ 1:46AM|#

Lone Wacko,

Under what conceivable circumstances would we have to absolutey deport 1 million illegal aliens within six months or otherwise?

|4.18.06 @ 1:59AM|#

Pay no attention to the (mostly-legal) Asian immigrants who learn English quickly and fill the rosters of US colleges of Science, Engineering, and Medicine, because that's not happening.

Yeah, about those Asian grad students who are allegedly so much better with English than the icky Hispanics...

Well, the English skills vary greatly. Try reading some of the draft articles that I've read, or sit through the seminars that I've sat through, and then we'll talk about how allegedly awesome those Asians are when it comes to learning English. I remember one professor who'd been in the US for 20+ years and was still incomprehensible.

Such kind of probrem happen much often.

|4.18.06 @ 2:02AM|#

For the record, I have nothing against foreign grad students. But I just had to laugh when somebody tried to imply that Asians students are so much better than other groups of immigrants when it comes to learning English.

|4.18.06 @ 2:14AM|#

Right thoreau, that is such a common cliche among universities, I'm surprised no one mentioned that yet.

I'm reminded of the This Modern World cartoon that compared making laws declaring English to be our official language to declaring the sun to be our official giver of light and heat.

I just heard a woman go off on radio talk show about how she couldn't order a roast beef sammich the way she wanted it because of Spanish-speaking kitchen staff.

I seriously question this. Maybe her order got screwed up and she's convinced it's because of the furriner's accent. I live 10 miles from Mexico in SoCal, and the only place I've really needed Spanish was in an overwhelimingly Mexican neighborhood at a taqueria.
I get the feeling sometimes that some people think it's their right to go into a (for example) Vietnamese neighborhood and walk into a Vietnamese restaurant with no signs in english and order a chicken fried steak, in english. I say, like others here mentioned, that the market will sort out the culture. Stores that want to earn money from english speakers will make sure english speakers are welcomed. Those that don't better hope they can make a premium appealing to non-english speakers. Likely, the market will support both, and that's ok.

|4.18.06 @ 8:12AM|#

I've encountered Asian immigrants in So Cal who learned Spanish instead/before English because they live and work in Spanish speaking communities. Really threw me off.

|4.18.06 @ 8:13AM|#

And yes, for all you nay sayers, the South will rise in the pacific northwest.

|4.18.06 @ 8:15AM|#

The perception that immigrants aren't interested in learning English is belied by the facts. Immigrants coming to the United States now learn English faster and better than at any time in our nation's history.

Ironically, the reason for this is the same reason that people wrongly conclude that immigrants aren't learning English. Rather than doing what immigrants did for the first 200-odd years of our history and moving into ethnic ghettos, where they can get along just fine without ever speaking English, immigrants today are much more likely to live, work, and/or shop in the same places as everbody else. They're out there muddling through with crappy English, getting a little better every day by virtue of their assimilation into mainstream society.

And people like John still give them crap for not speaking perfect English, and make assumptions about them.

|4.18.06 @ 8:19AM|#

Obviously, I'm speaking in generalities. There will always be a certain degree of "ghetto-izing." My point it, there is much less among the current generation of immigrant communities than ever before.

|4.18.06 @ 8:19AM|#

Yeah, about those Asian grad students who are allegedly so much better with English....

thoreau:

Are these mostly foreign students on foreign student visas or immigrants or the children of immigrants or do you have a sense one way or the other?

Tim Cavanaugh|4.18.06 @ 11:41AM|#

Moreover, it will just make people more angry and anti-immigrant once they realize they have been fed a bunch of soundbites with no real policy changes.

Since the alternative is soundbites and bad policy changes, I'd say this is the better option.

|4.18.06 @ 4:11PM|#

D. A. Ridgely-

The worst are the ones on student visas. The America-born children of immigrants speak flawless English with no accent. The ones who got here before college tend to speak flawless English, and depending on how young they were when they arrived the accent can be anything from minor to unnoticeable.

You do not want to work in the same lab as a guy who got here last week. Trust me.