New at Reason

Julian Sanchez | January 4, 2006

Critics have long insisted that libertarianism is an adolescent philosophy—Stuart Anderson has found some children's books that prove them right.

Comments

|1.4.06 @ 3:43PM|#

I'm going to Amazon.com to order my children some delayed Christmas presents.

(BTW, I'm currently reading "Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix" to my eight-year-old son. Quite a chilling representation of a government imposing the most horrible kind of totalitarianism, all for ostensibly benevolent motives (other than, of course, the CYA aspect of it). (On that subject, see this from Eugene Volokh: http://volokh.com/posts/1132435363.shtml .))

|1.4.06 @ 3:49PM|#

Interesting article.

I'd be curious to know what Anderson would think of Claire Wolfe's "Rebel Fire Rock"

I've not read any of the books mentioned in the article, nor the one penned by Wolfe.

|1.4.06 @ 3:57PM|#

"Critics have long insisted that libertarianism is an adolescent philosophy"

So that makes statism an adult philosophy or what? It seems more like a toddler's philosophy "Do what I say or else!"

|1.4.06 @ 4:00PM|#

So that makes statism an adult philosophy or what? It seems more like a toddler's philosophy "Do what I say or else!"

And, further, "Someone please take care of me. I'm not qualified to make or be responsible for my own choices!"

|1.4.06 @ 4:12PM|#

I'm not qualified to make or be responsible for my own choices!

Except that while I'm not qualified to make or be responsible for my own choices I'm so brilliant I can dictate everyone's choices to them.

I guess you have to get the nuance or something, eh?

The one place they are consistent is that when their schemes fail they refuse to accept any resposibility. It's always someone else (who didn't vote enough funding or wasn't trying hard enough to be mutual or something)

|1.4.06 @ 4:39PM|#

A while back I got into a political argument with an older man (60+, I would guess), which I wasn't looking for, except that it was during the Presidential election, and my Mom had to out me by announcing "He's voting for the Libertarian!" (Thanks, Mom. I should mention that my mother is an old liberal, so it wasn't exactly a pride thing, more like "Look at this freak I raised; can you believe this is my child.") Anyway, this guy actually pulled out the line, "Well, you believe that because you're young." No lie, those were his exact words.

It took a lot of self-restraint - I was trying not to make a scene - not to smile and politely respond, "And you believe what you believe because you are old." How you like them apples, you fossil? I was doubly shocked to find out later that the guy was a political science professor! I'd seriously been on the verge of asking him if he'd ever read any John Stuart Mill.

R C Dean|1.4.06 @ 4:44PM|#

Well, you believe that because you're young

To which the response should be:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident . . ."

What a bunch of youngsters those Founding Fathers were, eh?

|1.4.06 @ 4:44PM|#

You should have made a scene, JD. You can't let some lame-ass poli-sci prof bully you around like that!

Rich Ard|1.4.06 @ 4:47PM|#

Two words: Starship Troopers.

|1.4.06 @ 4:53PM|#

I hope to God that the back cover of those books does not show the author with a (gasp) cigarette!

I'm a parent, you know.

|1.4.06 @ 4:54PM|#

"Well, you believe that because you're young."

I get that quite a bit, myself. Apparently the theory is that all libertarians are hedonistic ne'er-do-wells who just need more experience and (gag!) "a family of your own" to realize that the state needs to meddle in our lives to protect us and our bratlings from ourselves and the bogeymen we create in our limited imaginations (e.g. terrorists, communists, homosexuals, etc.).

"And you believe what you believe because you are old."

It's getting to point where I'm beginning to think that if an 18 year-old can't vote or run for public office because they are not responsible enough to make political decisions, then people over 50 should also loose their franchise because their age-driven conservatism leads to authoritarianism and cultural stagnation.

Maybe the society depicted in Logan's Run had a point...

|1.4.06 @ 4:57PM|#

This discussion is all well and good, but let's get to the important issue: Are any of the authors of these books pictured holding a cigarette in their book jacket photos?

|1.4.06 @ 4:58PM|#

Damnit, Sage! :-)

Beat me to the punch!

|1.4.06 @ 4:59PM|#

Hey doctor nosewaiter, I beat you to it! But you're right, it is *the* issue.

|1.4.06 @ 5:00PM|#

Dammit, Doctor. Crossing posts!
;-)

|1.4.06 @ 5:01PM|#

R C Dean, Lowdog - I was also seriously considering asking him what he thought of Lysander Spooner, who died at the age of 79 still just as much an anarchist as when he was young. But hey, it was a gallery opening (yeah, liberals at a gallery opening in NYC, quelle surprise) and I figure we have a bad enough rep already without me getting disorderly. OTOH, if we've already got a bad rep, what have we got to lose?

|1.4.06 @ 5:01PM|#

Get back here, Noisewater!

|1.4.06 @ 5:08PM|#

Actually, at 58 I am less of a statist than I was at 17.

And I would have voted for Goldwater that year if I could have.

|1.4.06 @ 5:19PM|#

Whenever I've been given any version of "You only believe this because you're young," I usually respond with "Okay, pretend I'm your age. Now what arguments do you have against my beliefs?"

Luke|1.4.06 @ 5:29PM|#

I don�t think he has ever cared about civil liberties � he sees his job as protecting us, not protecting our liberties.

|1.4.06 @ 5:40PM|#

Akira-My dad is comfortably past your cut-off point. He's also the one who introduced me to libertarianism. He's the one who raised me in such a way that I was receptive to those ideas. And he's also a bit more radical than I am on several issues.

|1.4.06 @ 5:40PM|#

I'd seriously been on the verge of asking him if he'd ever read any John Stuart Mill.

Well, this may come as a surprise, but there are some people who *have* read John Stuart Mill and not been convinced. Not all of them were dummies. James Fitzjames Stephens, for example (who, at age 45, wasn't even particularly old when he wrote "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity").

That said, it would have been nice if the professor had thought to address the arguments on their merits, rather than using a determinist argument that could just as validly be used against his own position.

wingnutx|1.4.06 @ 5:48PM|#

Two words: Starship Troopers.

Beat me to it

|1.4.06 @ 5:51PM|#

Having actually read Starship Troopers, I have to ask - what's remotely libertarian about it?

|1.4.06 @ 5:52PM|#

(I'd think Red Planet by the same author, as cheesy as it might strike people, would make more sense.)

|1.4.06 @ 5:56PM|#

I thought Heinlein's most famous libertarian novel was The Moon is Harsh Mistress.

BTW, am I the only one here who was disappointed with For Us The Living? Despite its supercool cover it was not that great.

wingnutx|1.4.06 @ 5:59PM|#

Oops, make that "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress"

Starship Troopers has some very good content on personal accountability, though, and I certainly recommend it.

|1.4.06 @ 6:11PM|#

Oh yeah, I forgot that by me not having kids, I can't say anything silly about mandatory drug testing of high school athletes being wrong.

Of course, if I then say then we shouldn't have public schools, I'm even sillier.

My point was simply that parents should be allowed to say whether their kids should be drug tested, not the school.

|1.4.06 @ 6:44PM|#

Critics have long insisted that libertarianism is an adolescent philosophy

There is a rousing example of why going on over at the blow smoke posting. Name calling. Hystrionics. and very, very little substance. Boils down to... "you don't agree with me so you're wrong." Or "don't tell me what to do, that's not right."

Gets better later on. Some libertarianism eventually sneaks in.

|1.4.06 @ 6:54PM|#

The funnest way to get to a liberal, especially an old liberal, is this: Tell them, "Liberalism is the new conservatism. So bland, so tired, so beaten. Don't you have any original thoughts?" I've used it a few times. Love the reaction.

kgsam|1.4.06 @ 8:07PM|#

Anyone ever read "all the Marching Morons"? by Cyril M. Kornbluth

|1.4.06 @ 8:08PM|#

"Critics have long insisted that libertarianism is an adolescent philosophy"

I find this criticism particularly interesting.

As an adolescent, I was a conservative with strong tendencies that are today considered "neo-conservative".

After a frustrating and disillusioning early adulthood I finally realized that the U.S. government does not suddenly become knowledgeable, effective, efficient or moral once you step outside American borders.

I finally embraced libertarianism at 38 because it struck me as the only logical set of political ideas out there.

kgsam|1.4.06 @ 9:08PM|#

or, as I put it to a group at a "meet the political parties" event, "the libertarian assessment of government and society is the most accurate.

|1.4.06 @ 9:11PM|#

I knew someone would mention Hienlien! Been reading his stuff since I was six or seven. Moon is a Harsh Mistress is probably his most blatantly libertarian book, but the current of it runs throughout pretty much everything I have read of his. Red Planet is great example of a novel in the same vein as the one's in this article. Star beast, Rocketship Gallileo and Starship Troopers are also similar.

|1.4.06 @ 9:26PM|#

Seamus - I completely agree with you about not everybody being convinced by Mill, but this guy seriously sounded like he wasn't even aware that anyone other than some snotty-nosed 30-year-old had ever or would ever defend these ideas. And, like I said, this was a poli sci professor. I dunno, maybe Mill at 53 was just a kid going through a phase.

wingnutx|1.4.06 @ 11:13PM|#

Anyone ever read "all the Marching Morons"? by Cyril M. Kornbluth

Good story.

kgsam|1.4.06 @ 11:20PM|#

"Political science" is oxymoronic anyhow.

|1.4.06 @ 11:58PM|#

The Giver, which won the prestigious Newberry Medal

The Giver is taught in many schools, public and private, around the country.

Through the end of 2000, The Giver ranked as the 63rd best-selling children�s book of all time

Among the Hidden (1998), won an American Library Association Best Book for Young Adults award.

Funny that groups regularly accused of being "liberals" - teachers, librarians and other intellectual literary afficianados - should be discovered as having an appreciation for freethinking ideas.

Go figure.

|1.5.06 @ 12:25AM|#

For younger kids, there's "A Mouse To Be Free".

|1.5.06 @ 2:17AM|#

I was doubly shocked to find out later that the guy was a political science professor!

They're the amongst the worstest, vilest types I ever met in college. They don't debate anything. They simply treat anyone who disagrees with them as idiots.

But debating political philosophy is about one step removed from debating religion. There are a very few people with whom it is worth taking up the debate. For the vast majority the truth is most nearly this quote that I forget where I read.

"For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who don't, no explanation is possible."

|1.5.06 @ 4:46PM|#

"I was doubly shocked to find out later that the guy was a political science professor!

They're the amongst the worstest, vilest types I ever met in college. They don't debate anything. They simply treat anyone who disagrees with them as idiots."

My poli sci prof was the most balanced, fairest instructor I ever had. It was completely impossible to tell where he stood on anything he explained, and if you asked him he was actually capable of reasoned debate. I'm not sure if any one subject draws more closed minded folks than others.

|1.5.06 @ 4:58PM|#

Try talking to professors in the social work master's program at Teacher's College in NYC. While they might debate whether or not brie or gouda is better on a cracker, everything else is the tenets of the faith or get out.