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Ambivalence About Illegal Immigrants
The Wash Post's Dan Balz writes today about Americans' ambivalent feelings toward illegal immigrants--an ambivalence reflected in (and reinforced by) shifting policies. According to a new Post-ABC News poll, a solid majority (56 percent) feels that illegals are hurting the country, yet three in five respondents think illegals already here should be given a shot at legit status. Bush apparently is getting his worst marks--no small feat, that--on immigration and control of the U.S.-Mexico border. Whole thing here.
As I note in my editor's note for the February Reason ("If You Enjoyed Your Christmas Tree, Thank an Immigrant"), immigration is going to be a huge issue this year. In December, the House of Representatives passed odious legislation on the topic and the Senate will be taking up the issue in either January or February. The worst quote coming out of that? Rep. Tom Tancredo (R-Colo.) saying that "What would be the best Christmas present to the American people is pictures of concrete being poured."
The February issue is on newsstands now and features a cover story on immigration that should give pause to the most ardent anti-immigrationists. You can read a preview version of the story and my editor's note on the topic here.
The author of the cover story, Jesse James DeConto, and I published an op-ed on the topic here. Among other things, it makes the simple point that any immigration policy that doesn't make room for men and women willing to work long hours at relatively low pay is "not simply wrong but immoral." (Interesting take on immigration and wages and assimilation here.)
Over the years, I've found that few issues raise more ire than
immigration. I'm not exactly sure why that is and I recognize that
the details of immigration policy are difficult and bedeviling. But
the rage routinely expressed at immigrants
bedevils surprises me.
|1.3.06 @ 8:48AM|#
Over the years, I've found that few issues raise more ire
than immigration. I'm not exactly sure why that is and I recognize
that the details of immigration policy are difficult and
bedeviling. But the rage routinely expressed at immigrants bedevils
me.
Same here. A strange aspect of it is that some virulent strains of
it comes from recent immigrants or their progeny.
Some speculation: Alot of it does appear to be pure racism, or more
precisely, a belief that I as a native born American and/or a white
American (in the case of more classical racisim) at least am better
than someone, and as long as immigrants remain objects of suspicion
and exclusion, I am somebody. For others it may be a fear of
competitive labor. For still others perhaps just the fear of
behavior and looks and accents that are uncomfortably different, a
preference for and feeling of safety among homogeneity and
familiarity.
And in fairness a knee-jerk response to 9/11 perpetrators.
|1.3.06 @ 8:50AM|#
Also it's been along time since this clause of the Declaration
of Independence's bitch-list about King George III has been
quoted:
"He has endeavored to prevent [limit] the population of these
states; for that purpose obstructing the laws for naturalization of
foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migration
hither . . . ."
|1.3.06 @ 9:14AM|#
Maybe this isn't ambivlance, but a broad understanding among the
public of the evils of prohibition. Maybe the respondants
understand that the damaging part of the "illegal immigrant"
phenomenon isn't the "immigrant" part, but the "illegal"
part.
And maybe monkeys will fly out of my butt.
Warren|1.3.06 @ 9:26AM|#
Bush apparently is getting his worst marks--no small feat,
that--on immigration and control of the U.S.-Mexico
border.
Farm Bill, Prescription Drugs, Highway Bill; Check check check, we
love our pork.
Weapons of Mass Destruction; eh better safe than sorry.
Welcome us with flowers; Ungrateful bastards, who knew the mid-east
could be so unstable.
Enemy combatants, torture, domestic spying; Hey whatever it takes,
we're at war you know.
Immigration; How come you're such a pansy all of a sudden? We
should ship all those dirty spics to Gitmo
|1.3.06 @ 10:22AM|#
I think that the rage aimed at immigrants is one of those "free
rider" anger issues.
Man, imagine how great public schools could be if only we didn't
have to educate people who couldn't speak english!
Man, imagine how great emergency room service could be if only we
didn't have to repair people who couldn't speak english!
Man, we could be CANADA!!! Only without the French!
That's the main guess I have, anyway.
|1.3.06 @ 10:27AM|#
"He has endeavored to prevent [limit] the population of these
states; for that purpose obstructing the laws for naturalization of
foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migration
hither . . . ."
The Penn boys used to advertise in European newspapers urging the
"wretched refuse" to come to Pennsylvania.
Can you imagine the Texas or California or Arizona governments
doing anything like that in Mexican newspapers and TV?
|1.3.06 @ 10:34AM|#
Nick,
Are you equally bedevilled by the opposition to, say,
miscegenation?
I think if you can explain one it goes along way toward explaining
the other.
|1.3.06 @ 10:36AM|#
Threadjack: is it just my computer, or did every word and sentence on Hit and Run suddenly appear with lines drawn through them?
dave W.|1.3.06 @ 10:42AM|#
Man, we could be CANADA!!!
Here in Canada, the skinny on the immigrants is that they h8 gay
marriage, generally speaking. They like Sharia Courts. There seems
to be a pattern of fathers killing their daughters. You let enuf
Muslims (or Indian or Hindu or African or Chinese) into a country,
then the country as a whole gets more Muslim, the country changes.
That is happening some Toronto suburbs now, especially around where
I work. I have learned to obey the boss's daughter at work with
great alacrity and subservience due to her elevated status as a
blood relation of the big boss, because in Hindu society, that is
part and parcel of being an employee.
I am not saying any of this is bad, but sometimes my politically
incorrect heart misses all the white people and their special white
people ways of being.
FINAL NOTE:
I think Nick said the point well about that you shouldn't dislike
someone just because they will cause your salary to go down with
their cheap work. That is selfish, and I have to admit that I am
probably a bit guilty of this. However, there may be good reasons
for limiting immigration in the US and Canada. There is more to a
healthy society and culture than labor and wages. Still, I hope
Canada accepts my Permanent Residence application. I would like to
stay, I think.
I think the hatred of immigrations, proposals to kill them, etc.
That is a bad special white person way of being. However, I think
is possible to want to limit immigration without hating immigrants.
It is also possible to manage immigration so that some of the
softer, yet important, cultural values remain intact. I think this
is a valid place for gov't oversight and policy.
Timothy|1.3.06 @ 10:52AM|#
Maybe this isn't ambivlance, but a broad understanding among
the public of the evils of prohibition.
This does not gel with the ever-harsher DUI standards, the huge
popularity of the drug war, the constant praise of tobacco-bashing
enthusiasts, or the success of MADD.
Captain Holly|1.3.06 @ 11:01AM|#
The "ambivalence" reflected in the polls is a reflection of the
complexity of the issue. Immigration isn't a problem that is going
to be solved by a new law or government program, which explains why
Congress has been so reluctant to do anything about it until
recently.
Most Americans realize that if they want inexpensive fresh produce
or a clean hotel room or an affordable dinner out, then there needs
to be enough persons available who are willing to work those jobs
for a relatively low wage.
Most Americans also recognize that if millions of persons and tons
of drugs can cross the Mexican border undetected every year, then
it's not too hard to imagine a few dozen terrorists bringing a few
vials of anthrax spores or even a small nuke across it.
Finally, most Americans recognize that there's a difference between
someone who illegally comes to the US but then is a model citizen
when they get here, and someone who comes to the US to specifically
commit a crime. Most Americans (including myself) want to keep the
former, and get rid of the latter.
So the apparently contradictory poll numbers merely refect the
reality that immigration, both legal and illegal, has clear
benefits as well as costs. The question is, do the benefits
outweigh the costs in a post-9/11 world?
|1.3.06 @ 11:09AM|#
Captain Holly,
Perhaps a better question would be, is it possible to maximize the
benefits and minimize the harms?
|1.3.06 @ 11:19AM|#
It is also possible to manage immigration so that some of
the softer, yet important, cultural values remain intact. I think
this is a valid place for gov't oversight and policy.
So far as the United States is concerned, immigrants would more
readily integrate themselves into American culture if they were
legally allowed to do so. The illegal immigrants, who have to keep
a low profile and avoid the cops whenever possible, are the ones
who are least likely to adopt American ways, because in many ways
they can't.
|1.3.06 @ 11:22AM|#
Most Americans also recognize that if millions of persons
and tons of drugs can cross the Mexican border undetected every
year, then it's not too hard to imagine a few dozen terrorists
bringing a few vials of anthrax spores or even a small nuke across
it.
Agreed. And I think a more liberal approach might bankrupt the
smugglers. Right now, terrorists would be needles in a haystack.
Let's clear the hay away.
And Jennifer is right: Assimilation is easier for those who have
nothing to fear from the law.
|1.3.06 @ 11:47AM|#
Immigration might be a good application for a market solution.
Since employers want more seasonal field hands and natives feel
there is some negative externality to those guys being around,
maybe there is some price that those industries could pay to the
treasury to compensate us for whatever harm the field hands are
supposed to cause. Of course it would be a hidden tax on Xmass
tress and fruit. But we have an 11 digit defecit so maybe Xmass
trees need taxing.
The situation is even clearer with the H1Bs. Those ought to be
auctioned off. Why make an employer pay a bunch of money to lawyers
to spin stories about why you need a particular employee when a
check for $20k a year to rent an H1B would spell out need in the
clearest possible language?
Timothy|1.3.06 @ 11:52AM|#
Thoreau: Indeed! A professor of mine at Oregon used some of his
work on illegal drugs for an example in class. He estimated the
cost of an ounce of weed in Portland, OR would be about $3 if pot
were legal.
Hard to keep up your smuggling life style if the price of your good
falls, what, 100 fold?
|1.3.06 @ 11:56AM|#
However pessimistic I get about the future of the USA, I get a
burst of optimism when I think about how people are still risking
their lives to come here. It's not like Mexico or Venezuela are
having that problem.
Ultimately, the tragedy of all this is that the people leaving
Mexico for the USA are the 'best' people--the most ambitious and
hardworking. While they send remittances back to the old country,
the fruit of their labors is building our country, not theirs. The
remittances mostly get wasted helping to prop up the status quo.
Also, those are the folks who should have been agitating to change
the corruption and stagnation of Mexico, which is much less likely
to happen now.
|1.3.06 @ 12:09PM|#
I'm baffled by the opposition to an amnesty. Imagine all the extra tax dollars that could be put to use in Alaska!
Dave W.|1.3.06 @ 12:10PM|#
So far as the United States is concerned, immigrants would
more readily integrate themselves into American culture if they
were legally allowed to do so. The illegal immigrants, who have to
keep a low profile and avoid the cops whenever possible, are the
ones who are least likely to adopt American ways, because in many
ways they can't.
That could be true, buth the type of unassimilated immigrants I
deal with are legal here in Canada. I get the sense that ppl in
Canada used to be (in 1980, in 1990) kind of hands off as far as
trying to force immigrants to assimilate. You still oldtimers here
(I have only been arrived recently) talk about the superiority of
the mosaic over the melting pot. However, when the mosaic leads to
Sharia courts or anti-gay stuf, ppl begin to have second thoughts
and I get the sense that some ppl are (there is an election coming
up and the Conservative party wants the immigrant vote).
Nevertheless, it depends on which mosaic tile you are on. Where I
live, in an arty part of Toronto, is thoroughly westernized. Where
I work (the whole town, not just my facility) doesn't seem very
North American at all, at least when you observe and talk to the
people.
|1.3.06 @ 12:12PM|#
I get a burst of optimism when I think about how people are
still risking their lives to come here. It's not like Mexico or
Venezuela are having that problem.
Actually, Mexico DOES have a problem with illegal immigrants
crossing their southern border from Guatemala. When Bush got
(understandably) upset with the Mexican government for printing and
distributing pamphlets explaining how to illegally cross into the
United States, I always thought our government should have
responded in kind, by printing and distributing pamphlets in
Guatemala explaining how to sneak into Mexico.
MP|1.3.06 @ 12:35PM|#
When Bush got (understandably) upset with the Mexican
government for printing and distributing pamphlets explaining how
to illegally cross into the United States,
Yeah, we'd hate to have the Mexican goverment act responsibly and
realistically and try to keep their citizens from dying while doing
something they are determined to do. That would be like Bolivia
legalizing coca. Bastards.
BTW,
here is the notorious pamphlet.
Timothy|1.3.06 @ 12:37PM|#
Jennifer: Last I heard the Mexicans were employing some pretty
serious force on the Guatamalan border, imagine the uproar if we
did the same thing on the Mexican border.
Not that I'd advocate such a thing, but the double-standard bothers
the hell out of me. Vincente Fox and company bust out the Righteous
Fury Of The Ages when we build an ineffectual 700 mile wall, but
feel free to shoot Guatamalans who're trying to get into
Mexico.
|1.3.06 @ 12:43PM|#
Jennifer,
Am I alone in suspecting that encouraging illegal immigration into
the US is Mexico's way of ameliorating the problem you mention? I
mean, if a Guatemalan has already left behind their family and
home, wouldn't they be prime targets to continue north to even
greener pastures?
|1.3.06 @ 12:45PM|#
MP: thanks for the link. I don't read Spanish, but from the
pictures and what little I understand, it advises people not to
resist arrest, use false documents, or carry weapons.
Also, the women in the drawings are remarkably busty. I mean,
really impressive. Why don't our government pamphlets have women
like that?
|1.3.06 @ 12:46PM|#
Yeah, we'd hate to have the Mexican goverment act
responsibly and realistically and try to keep their citizens from
dying while doing something they are determined to do. That would
be like Bolivia legalizing coca.
No, it would be more like Bolivia encouraging coca growers to make
big bucks by smuggling cocaine to the United States, and printing
and distributing pamphlets explaining how to do it.
Don't get me wrong--I think the immigration laws we have are
bullshit. I'm just pointing out that I can't blame this
administration for being furious at another government for
encouraging its citizens to break our laws.
And Timothy pointed out the rank hypocrisy of the Mexican
government, when it comes to dealing with illegal immigrants from
the South.
MP|1.3.06 @ 12:49PM|#
I'm just pointing out that I can't blame this administration
for being furious at another government for encouraging its
citizens to break our laws.
You mean like a needle exchange program? I don't see how a document
that shows you how to do something safely can be seen as
encouragement.
|1.3.06 @ 12:52PM|#
You mean like a needle exchange program? I don't see how a
document that shows you how to do something safely can be seen as
encouragement.
Is the Mexican government opening needle exchange programs in the
United States?
|1.3.06 @ 1:04PM|#
And Timothy pointed out the rank hypocrisy of the Mexican
government, when it comes to dealing with illegal immigrants from
the South.
Actually, it makes perfect sense. Most of the Guatemalans aren't
entering Mexico because Mexico is the land of milk and honey.
Mexico is, for most of them, just part of the road to the US. So
they take a two-pronged approach: Stop as many people as possible
from entering, but for those who do enter provide instructions on
how to get the hell out ASAP.
|1.3.06 @ 1:11PM|#
MP, just to give another example to try and explain my point: I think the War on Drugs is total bullshit, and think drugs should be legal. But if Mexico were to print and distribute pamphlets telling people how to smuggle drugs into the United States and sell them without getting caught, I would completely understand it when our own government got furious.
|1.3.06 @ 1:34PM|#
"I'm just pointing out that I can't blame this administration
for being furious at another government for encouraging its
citizens to break our laws." - Jennifer
Stupid laws are the responsibility of the country that has them,
other countries owe them no respect for their (our) idiocy. What
about the morality of the US gov't paying American farmers so they
can drive Mexican farmers out of business?
|1.3.06 @ 1:41PM|#
Stupid laws are the responsibility of the country that has
them, other countries owe them no respect for their (our) idiocy.
What about the morality of the US gov't paying American farmers so
they can drive Mexican farmers out of business?
Law, let me repeat myself: I am not saying I approve of our
immigration laws; I'm just saying I can see why our government gets
pissed off at Mexico's encouraging its citizens to come here and
break the laws, even if they're stupid.
I think the Saudi government is stupid and even a bit evil for
banning alcohol in its country, but at the same time if we printed
and distributed a pamphlet to Hajj pilgrims with a title like "How
to Smuggle Booze into Mecca" I would not blame the Saudis for
getting pissed.
MP|1.3.06 @ 2:07PM|#
But if Mexico were to print and distribute pamphlets telling
people how to smuggle drugs into the United States and sell them
without getting caught, I would completely understand it when our
own government got furious.
What if they were to print pamphlets and mail them to Mexican
citizens living in the US that explained how to safely use illegal
drugs? I think that is a closer comparison. Remember, the
immigration pamphlet does not give tips on how to avoid getting
caught. It simply gives advice on doing the trip safely.
|1.3.06 @ 2:13PM|#
Law - so that whiole thing about pissing on the koran or
importing and selling booze among the faithful should ust be thrown
out?
Not that I'm ragging on you, but those seem to be sacred
cows.
Or is it only stupid US laws that need to be ignored?
|1.3.06 @ 2:15PM|#
Yeah, we'd hate to have the Mexican goverment act
responsibly and realistically and try to keep their citizens from
dying while doing something they are determined to do.
That seems a rather charitable view of the situation to me. Isn't
it fairly well established that Fox is happy to send them to the
US?
Captain Holly|1.3.06 @ 2:18PM|#
I have to agree with Jennifer here audible gasps from the
audience. What bothers me most about the illegal immigration
issue is the lack of respect for our laws displayed by Mexicans in
general and their government in particular.
Mind you, I'm pretty libertarian when it comes to immigration. Our
immigration laws are a complete mess; for example, in Utah an
illegal immigrant who came here in '81, opened his own business,
got married, bought a house, and otherwise lawfully lived the
American dream was deported to Mexico last year and so far hasn't
been able to get back.
Yeah, he didn't file the necessary paperwork, but the sheer idiocy
of the Immigration service in this case is unbelieveable.
But still, I think alot of support for immigration reform is merely
an expression of frustration at the fecklessness of our own
government. If enough Americans felt that our border wasn't a wide
open gate for anyone who wanted to walk on through, then we
wouldn't really care what the Mexican government thought or did.
And I believe Presidente Fox would be much more respectful of our
laws if President Bush made it clear by his actions that he
demanded such respect.
|1.3.06 @ 2:23PM|#
The whole pamphlet thing was more amusing than sinister. However, I agree that Fox's attitude toward emigration from his country, illegal or otherwise, is despicable. He is, in effect, saying "my country is incredibly backwards and shitty and I won't do anything about it, so please go somewhere else and send back money so that I and my corrupt friends can continue to live in style."
Captain Holly|1.3.06 @ 2:26PM|#
Immigration might be a good application for a market
solution.
Actually, there is already a market-based solution for illegal
immigration: It's called a 15% unemployment rate, coupled with no
government handouts.
There was very little demand for immigrants, both legal and
illegal, during the Great Depression because companies had plenty
of unemployed Americans to choose from.
Unless we want to return to such times we're going to have to live
with some level of immigration. Our current economy demands it.
|1.3.06 @ 2:29PM|#
I think it's a great thing to have the best of the best of the best crawl through ditches to get here. Really makes them want to think it was worth it, and it keeps their home countries addled enough not to really compete against us for an extra generation or two.
|1.3.06 @ 2:41PM|#
The immigration comic book DOES give tips on how to avoid being
caught.
"Avoid loud parties, don't drive drunk."
How come none of the women that move here illegally that I have
ever met don't look like strippers or supermodels like the women in
the comic book do?
Female HitAndRunners would do well to ask why more male illegals
don't look like Chippendales Dancers like the ones in the comic
books do.
|1.3.06 @ 2:44PM|#
How come none of the women that move here illegally that I
have ever met don't look like strippers or supermodels like the
women in the comic book do?
Because walking thousands of miles through the desert is hell on
your skin.
MP|1.3.06 @ 2:51PM|#
What bothers me most about the illegal immigration issue is
the lack of respect for our laws displayed by Mexicans in general
and their government in particular.
Most of our laws don't deserve respect. I applaud people who flaunt
them.
MP|1.3.06 @ 3:24PM|#
The immigration comic book DOES give tips on how to avoid
being caught.
My bad. BTW, I dug up an
English translation for the curious.
|1.3.06 @ 3:28PM|#
I'm noticing that only unskilled illiterates and post-doc geniuses get any attention in this matter. The latter get in relatively easily, while the former are in such great demand that it's only a matter of time before a solution is worked out. It seems that people in the middle--decently-educated but otherwise unexceptional immigrants--get screwed over. Kind of like the American middle class....
|1.3.06 @ 3:50PM|#
I'm noticing that only unskilled illiterates and post-doc
geniuses get any attention in this matter. The latter get in
relatively easily, while the former are in such great demand that
it's only a matter of time before a solution is worked out. It
seems that people in the middle--decently-educated but otherwise
unexceptional immigrants--get screwed over.
I don't know that I'd call the illegals at the bottom of the scale
unskilled. Frequently illiterate, but not always unskilled. Manual
work requires skills as well.
But yeah, at the bottom of the scale the work goes unscrutinized so
they can slip through. At the top of the heap, things can be worked
out. It's the middle that sucked.
I read something about this in the Washington Post a few weeks ago.
There was an article about a writer from China who was off to a
promising start in her career but having little luck with the INS.
She had been published in all the right places, and had a job as a
writing instructor at a college, but for whatever reason she had to
go for a visa in some category for "exceptional" writers (as
opposed to, say, a visa for college instructors, don't ask me why
the categories are what they are). An "exceptional" writer is such
a subjective judgement that she was in trouble.
Meanwhile, on the next page, there was a blurb about a Congressman
from NYC sponsoring an amendment to make it easier for fashion
models to enter the US for work. Either he has a lot of
constituents in the fashion business, or he likes partying with
models.
The whole thing just seems too complicated.
Kind of like the American middle class....
There you go, bringing class into it again. ;)
|1.3.06 @ 4:12PM|#
"Most of our laws don't deserve respect. I applaud people who
flaunt them."
Call me a Statist, but I don't mind our drunk driving laws.
Immigrants from Mexico are used to the system there, where you pay
the cop $20, and you can drive as drunk as you want.
|1.3.06 @ 4:15PM|#
""The immigration comic book DOES give tips on how to avoid
being caught.
My bad. BTW, I dug up an English translation for the
curious."
What's up with that "avoid loud parties" BS?
My neighbors, who I suspect bought their social security numbers at
Macarthur Park, used to throw raging parties.
We should put up a big wall until they rewrite that comic book to
say "Throw great parties for your Gringo neighbors."
|1.3.06 @ 4:19PM|#
Manual work requires skills as well.
Well, by "unskilled" I mean you don't need any skills to land the
job. Of course you learn the skills you need on the job.
So yeah, I've heard of that "exceptional" category, too. They give
out even fewer of those than they do for the Visa Lottery. So short
of being "exceptional" or winning the "lottery", or marriage (real
or fake), there's almost zero chance for average folks to migrate
here.
R C Dean|1.3.06 @ 4:34PM|#
Immigration might be a good application for a market
solution.
Tempting, but the first step would be to restore a free market for
labor in the US. Get rid of the minimum wage laws, and get rid of
government subsidies for the unemployed and under-financed.
Also, get rid of non-market rewards for immigration, like free
citizenship for kids you manage to have on this side of the
border.
Finally, dry up the black market in drugs by legalizing them.
Then, after you have restored real market conditions to the
environment the immigrants will deal with after they cross the
border, we could give the market-based solution a try.
You'd probably have just as much immigration as before, and the
vast majority of hard-working immigrants would still bring it to
this side of the river, but you might have fewer of the problem
immigrants - the criminals, etc.
|1.3.06 @ 4:35PM|#
I'm confused. I thought all our jobs went to Mexico in the 1980s. Why are all those people coming here? Aren't they happy with all those jobs they took from us? Do they want more? My head hurts.
Captain Holly|1.3.06 @ 5:22PM|#
Most of our laws don't deserve respect. I applaud people who
flaunt them.
The problem with that approach, MP, is that different people have
different ideas about what laws are just or unjust.
Eric Robert Rudolph, for example, thought that laws protecting
abortion were wrong.
As stupid as I think the US laws on immigration are, the solution
is to change them -- not promote anarchy at the border.
|1.3.06 @ 5:58PM|#
Most of our laws don't deserve respect. I applaud people who
flaunt them. . . . .The problem with that approach, MP, is that
different people have different ideas about what laws are just or
unjust.
I'd say that in this case it's even simpler than that: the
government of country A is openly providing advice and
encouragement to its citizens who wish to go to country B and break
its laws. And I'm not even saying that country A is wrong for doing
so; I'm just saying that the government of country B is justified
in being angry.
I side with the otherwise non-criminal immigrants who just want to
come here and make a living, but I fully understand why Bush is mad
at the Mexican government for that pamphlet.
|1.3.06 @ 6:33PM|#
Mexico does behave a little aggressively towards the United
States and the border issue, but there is a lot of historical
baggage in the relationship. Remember that the border was
established through a war of aggression pretty much without any
justification. Most Mexicans, and their government, don't consider
the border particularly legitimate to this day, and I can't say I
blame them.
Of course that was a long time ago, and historical events should be
viewed in the context of their times. I agree that generally
fomenting unrest or illegality in another nation would be
unacceptable, but like it or not, the US has created a peculiar
relationship with Mexico by its own actions. When it's manifested
in what Mexicans view as a sort of right to come and work here when
jobs are offered to them, I don't see it as a problem. After all,
the US benefits far more than it loses in the bargain. And, if the
Mexican government chooses to give them a fairly inocuous pamphlet,
mostly about safety, thats a pretty inconsecuential grievance in a
long, and at times brutal, history of them on our part.
nofollowthis|1.3.06 @ 6:34PM|#
most ardent anti-immigrationists...
I've found that few issues raise more ire than immigration. I'm not
exactly sure why that is and I recognize that the details of
immigration policy are difficult and bedeviling. But the rage
routinely expressed at immigrants bedevils surprises me.
Perhaps it has something to do with the lies and smears that
"immigration supporters" continually use? Just something to
consider.
any immigration policy that doesn't make room for men and women
willing to work long hours at relatively low pay is "not simply
wrong but immoral."
All those illegal aliens are ripe for abuse, either being ripped
off, underpaid, working long hours, working without proper safety
equipment, being faced with deportation if they complain, etc. etc.
In the libertarian world, preventing that is immoral.
|1.3.06 @ 6:36PM|#
"I'm confused. I thought all our jobs went to Mexico in the
1980s. Why are all those people coming here? Aren't they happy with
all those jobs they took from us? Do they want more? My head
hurts."
Comment by: Isaac Bartram at January 3, 2006 04:35 PM
I think many of those jobs that went to Mexico in turn left Mexico
for the "workers' paradises" of India and China. Something about
lower labor costs. So yes, I guess they do want more.
|1.4.06 @ 1:38AM|#
Let's put on a new federal tax (maybe on produce) to pay for the
costs of immigrants (education, health care, food subsidies,
housing subsidies) and feed that tax stream directly to the states
most affected, mostly in the southwest. That way all Americans can
pay their fair share so that we can properly welcome these
immigrants into the fold.
I would guess that California is probably out about ten billion
dollars per year for these social costs. Arizona, New Mexico,
Nevada, probably each a couple billion as well.
|1.4.06 @ 8:23AM|#
I live in NYC and count many immigrants (legal ones mostly) as
friends. The problem that they have is not racism, it is the fact
that they went out of their way to respect our laws (find a job, a
spouse, etc.) even though the process is extremely time intensive,
expensive (they pay for their lawyer and H1-B processing in most
cases), confusing and uncertain.
They then see illegal immigrants effectively cut the line and flout
the rules. You would be upset also if you saw someone cut to the
head of a long line that you had been standing in for 5 - 10
years.
Also, those immigrants are very aware (they are the ones who
explained it to me) that the number of spots available in the
lottery depends on the number of immigrants (legal and illegal)
already here from that country. Therefore, for example, there are
many spots available through the lottery for Japanese nationals,
but none available to Chinese nationals (ergo, the example quoted
above about the Chinese author's travails).
A solution will obviously need to create legal immigration
opportunities for laborers we need here, but not reward people who
break laws (& enter illegally).
One way to do this would be to issue worker visas for laborers only
at U.S. embassies and consultates abroad, thus forcing illegals to
return to their country of origin if they want to be legal -- and
then actively deporting those here illegally after the new policies
have been adopted.
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